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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: admiralducksauce on December 05, 2010, 04:22:35 PM

Title: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 05, 2010, 04:22:35 PM
I'm guessing I'm not the only one here who has played Call of Duty Black Ops.  I had wikipedia'd a few things about paranormal government programs when I was setting up my DF campaign, but playing through the Black Ops single player made me realize I had been neglecting the idea of mundane government programs that could very easily be turned into supernatural threats.

Project Stargate was a remote viewing program, a way to gather intel on targets without the risks of losing assets or even risking discovery.  What if Project Stargate was still undermanned and underfunded but got results from a handful of thaumaturgists and ectomancers?  I admit that this program strikes me as more appropriate for an interesting single PC or NPC's background than to use as a threat.  See also the Men Who Stare At Goats, although I think that was a different program.  It's in my netflex queue but I haven't seen it yet.

MKULTRA and its various CIA sister programs has much more value as a threat, and it directly involves breaking the Laws of Magic.  Brainwashing, Manchurian Candidate stuff, mind control, it has all the hallmarks of warlockery but with the added bonus of the warlocks being insulated by the federal government.  Unless your campaign was actually set in the 60s, I suppose I'm actually talking about an as-yet-unknown descendant program of MKULTRA, since it was declassified in 1977.  Although it'd be interesting if what was declassifed was simply the mundane aspects to the program, and the supernatural stuff (that got results) was too valuable, and those files were destroyed by Helms in '73.

When it comes to mind control, the nice thing for villains is that you can manipulate your agents from behind a nice desk in an office at Langley.  I think it'd be hard for PCs to get thaumaturgical links back to the main villain if they only fight the brainwashed TREADSTONE/BLACKBRIAR-style agents of the villain.  It's also handy since it doesn't require a large contingent of warlocks in the government.  A handful of warlocks or even a single mage would likely be enough to account for whatever Renfielded Jason Bournes you want to use.

Anyways, I'm just throwing out some ideas here, maybe some of you will find them applicable, in which case awesome.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Buscadera on December 05, 2010, 04:31:42 PM
Jim has said something about the Library of Congress having a supernatural collections division, which I imagine to mean something in the vein of Warehouse 13 or something similar. There was a quickly defunct PbP on these boards that took place in DC which had the beginnings of some sinister government/supernatural organizations. That was actually the game where I played an agent of the Library of Congress.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Belial666 on December 05, 2010, 05:26:18 PM
There are, of course, lots of problems with this kind of thing;

1) Wizards can track black magic once they know it exists.
2) The White Council is adamant in its stance against black magic. The off-with-your-head sort of adamant.
3) Magic can wreck technology. Especially the delicate electronics any espionage agency is bound to have. Even throwing around magic in the same building can fry computer memories for example. I don't think the non-magical CIA and FBI divisions would be happy with the supernatural ones operating out of the same buildings.
4) Black magic is bad. If uncontrolled, it can twist people to horrible caricatures of themselves and cause insanity. I don't think politicians, once they realize it can rape their minds, will allow it to be used anywhere near them.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: sinker on December 05, 2010, 06:06:42 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on December 05, 2010, 05:26:18 PM
1) Wizards can track black magic once they know it exists.

Wait, when did we determine this? Seems to me that a wizard can spot a warlock (or a victim of warlockery) with his sight. But the gatekeeper seems to be the only one who has exhibited the ability to tell when black magic is going down, and I'm thinking that's likely due to future knowledge. I mean in side jobs Luccio even tells Harry that they don't have a way of determining where or when black magic is being used.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: zerogain on December 05, 2010, 06:14:33 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on December 05, 2010, 05:26:18 PM
1) Wizards can track black magic once they know it exists.
<snip>
4) Black magic is bad. If uncontrolled, it can twist people to horrible caricatures of themselves and cause insanity. I don't think politicians, once they realize it can rape their minds, will allow it to be used anywhere near them.

Good points on 2 & 3 @Belial666, though for my own $.02 I usually see these secret government programs as operating without the consent and/or knowledge of the dupes who run for office.  Most of these secret conspiracy stories have at best one or two elected types maybe at the helm, or thinking they are, but the rest of it is run by shadow groups.

To counter the rest, within the game @admiralducksauce you can model what you're talking about by having the active agents not be magic users.  Have the controllers, the brainwashers and the like, be either psychics with an inherited "supernatural power" like Domination or perhaps other non-humans touched with the supernatural, and do not limit yourself to faeries.  Faerie is the closest realm to the world, not the only realm with access.  I think a Black Council agent would be more than happy to help something like this get going and protect it.

Against problem #1, I know that in one of the Side Jobs stories Lucio says as much that they don't a satellite network to track black magic, and that it's the warden's job to tell the WC about it, not the WC's job to tell the warden.  If the wardens had missed this program (possible, they're human after all) then it could still very much be active.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 05, 2010, 09:07:24 PM
A quick note on the tracing of black magic.

To quote from Love Hurts:
(click to show/hide)

In that scene Harry knows that black magic is happening.  He's seen the results.  The only problem is that he doesn't know where the spells were being cast or by who.  When he finally gets a general area he wanders around all day trying to sniff out things and nothing jumps out at him.

In short, minor acts of black magic are hard to trace.  That's probably why most warlocks are crazy by the time the council finds them - no one noticed when they did minor things (things like Molly did in Proven Guilty) so they did those minor things and kept escalating until they were making waves that were large enough to be noticed.  Kind of like no one noticing someone hurting small animals, then killing small animals, then following people, etc until he escalates to being a serial killer.

Richard
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Valarian on December 05, 2010, 09:44:59 PM
The Conspiracy X game deals with this exact theme and could be a good place to pick up information on the MKULTRA and other conspiracies (e.g. Bluebook, Moondust, MJ-12). Bit more focussed on the UFO and X-Files type settings, but might still be good for ideas.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 05, 2010, 11:50:38 PM
Oh, and the ConX reference reminded me - there's no reason the government wouldn't have its own X-Files-like underfunded black sheep version of CPD's Special Investigations.  The government doesn't only have to be bad guys, and I find having one hand not knowing where the other is sticking its thumb is way more realistic than some overarching conspiracy.  :)  And it gives GMs a chance maybe to break out their Delta Green sourcebooks.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Wyrdrune on December 06, 2010, 10:07:04 AM
i am planning to have the goverment's "faust initiative" to press the player characters into service one or two times...
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 06, 2010, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on December 05, 2010, 05:26:18 PM
There are, of course, lots of problems with this kind of thing;

1) Wizards can track black magic once they know it exists.
2) The White Council is adamant in its stance against black magic. The off-with-your-head sort of adamant.
3) Magic can wreck technology. Especially the delicate electronics any espionage agency is bound to have. Even throwing around magic in the same building can fry computer memories for example. I don't think the non-magical CIA and FBI divisions would be happy with the supernatural ones operating out of the same buildings.
4) Black magic is bad. If uncontrolled, it can twist people to horrible caricatures of themselves and cause insanity. I don't think politicians, once they realize it can rape their minds, will allow it to be used anywhere near them.

Heh, those are only four problems, and problems that I believe can be overcome for the sake of using the idea in a game.

Other people have covered #1 pretty well I think.  All the other problems you point out make the game interesting.  In fact, combining #1 and #2 would be why the PCs have something to do, I'd imagine.  It'd probably play out similar to any black magic scenario, with the PCs encountering the aftermath and tracking down the warlocks, fighting their underlings along the way.  At the end, maybe the PCs are Wardens, or they call in the same.  It doesn't mean the MKULTRA/TREADSTONE bad guys are just going to lay their heads down on the block without a fight.  As for why the Wardens didn't take care of things before?  Maybe they couldn't find the source.  Maybe Wardens were killed by mortal agents once they got too close (think of Roark in the short story The Warrior).  Maybe politics play into it, or my favorite, maybe the local Warden has been compromised by the same subtle techniques.  The PCs can't use the local Warden, and in fact he may turn into an evil henchman.  Can the PCs save him, or defeat the warlock(s) before the Warden goes insane from the conflicting directives?  How do they get out from under the charges of killing a Warden should it come to that?
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: sinker on December 06, 2010, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: admiralducksauce on December 06, 2010, 12:32:35 PM
As for why the Wardens didn't take care of things before?  Maybe they couldn't find the source.  Maybe Wardens were killed by mortal agents once they got too close (think of Roark in the short story The Warrior).  Maybe politics play into it, or my favorite, maybe the local Warden has been compromised by the same subtle techniques.  The PCs can't use the local Warden, and in fact he may turn into an evil henchman.  Can the PCs save him, or defeat the warlock(s) before the Warden goes insane from the conflicting directives?  How do they get out from under the charges of killing a Warden should it come to that?

Ooh, maybe the warden is tired of always being politically neutral when he's really a patriot at heart. Maybe he's actively working with them of his own will because he wants to.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 06, 2010, 07:57:52 PM
Quote
Ooh, maybe the warden is tired of always being politically neutral when he's really a patriot at heart. Maybe he's actively working with them of his own will because he wants to.

Right, and that same decision would put a good man (maybe not a good Warden, but you might say Harry's a terrible Warden too) at odds with the PCs.  Not only might he side with the villains due to his beliefs, he HAS to side with them or else his lack of Wardening could get him killed by the Council as well.  I like that a lot, it makes the decisions the PCs face harder.  Or maybe not, they might just kill everyone and be home in time for cornflakes but it muddies the situation in a suitable way IMO.

As for #3, magic hexing technology, well, I admit I forgot about that one.  Easily solved by putting the offending Big Bad in an offsite location where the inability to have state-of-the-art automated security means the PCs have a chance of infiltrating the secret location.  Dogs are good when you can't use video cameras everywhere.  :)

#4 is a nonissue IMO.  This stuff is so far removed from any politician that it won't matter.  Once they find out?  Who says they're going to find out, and why would they accept that it's black magic?  It's more palatable to believe that the CIA was slipping their target LSD for 7 years as some sort of experiment.

Oooh, LSD!  LSD plus Three-Eye!  What if the Big Bads' plan isn't even about directly mind-controlling targets?  They're making truth serums and geas-injectors for the CIA, which puts the warlocks one more step removed from their victims.

"They told me it was a training op, Senator."
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Bruce Coulson on December 06, 2010, 10:06:17 PM
The government (or agencies within the government) always make for good opponents.

Magic works.  Magic can do things that technology can't.  The United States faces threats to its interests, and its citizens, from supernatural agencies.  Given these three parameters, there would be some government agency, somewhere, trying to make magic work for US interests.

Wizards, and the White Council, often seem to overlook that despite a mundane reaction to deny the impossible, there are enough people in the government that someone, somewhere, at some point, would have encountered a supernatural threat, survived it, accepted it...and had enough authority to do something about it.  A 'spook squad' that is distrusted...but gets results, so it gets funding.  And recruits.  And may have already encountered Wardens, and considers them a threat.

Here's a nasty suggestion.  The Black Council, although thoroughly ruthless, is acting as it does to gain control of the Council because they're aware of the government agency, and realize that sometime soon there's going to be a showdown between the Council and the Agency?  Yeah, they're playing hardball; but they're up against opponents far worse.  If they're not there to make the tough calls, then the Council goes under and it's full-out magickal war; mortals vs everyone else.  Given the stakes, sacrifices have to be made...
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: sinker on December 06, 2010, 11:58:06 PM
I also forgot that there's an easy solution to #3. Water-cooled systems. Running water disrupts magic.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: devonapple on December 07, 2010, 12:00:53 AM
Quote from: sinker on December 06, 2010, 11:58:06 PM
I also forgot that there's an easy solution to #3. Water-cooled systems. Running water disrupts magic.

You could have this powerful Director in an immense circular office enclosed by an aquarium wall. The doors would be tricky though.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 07, 2010, 01:26:08 AM
Quote from: devonapple on December 07, 2010, 12:00:53 AM
You could have this powerful Director in an immense circular office enclosed by an aquarium wall. The doors would be tricky though.

How about a platform that lowers and rises - say an elevator without walls?

Richard
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Malivotti on December 07, 2010, 08:40:15 PM
Random thought here about Wizards and tech, what if the Black Ops group has an entromancer on the payroll. Wizards then to blow things up but what if said entromancer was able to make a type of Hexing Ward? A Ward that fights back against the Wizards 'make it go boom' effect.

Heck I'd suspect that there could even be supernatural power like that, ever notice how some devices just start working better the closer they get to a tech?  :) 
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 07, 2010, 08:50:20 PM
Quote from: Malivotti on December 07, 2010, 08:40:15 PM
Random thought here about Wizards and tech, what if the Black Ops group has an entromancer on the payroll. Wizards then to blow things up but what if said entromancer was able to make a type of Hexing Ward? A Ward that fights back against the Wizards 'make it go boom' effect.

Heck I'd suspect that there could even be supernatural power like that, ever notice how some devices just start working better the closer they get to a tech?  :) 

A simple magic circle was able to keep a GPS going during a Darkhallow, right?  I don't see why there couldn't be warded computer banks using the same idea.  The important thing is, if you want your Black Ops warlocks in the same facility, then you can have warded circles protecting the tech.  If it's not a big deal, the warlocks have burner cell phones that they assume will die off anyway and are located offsite with low-tech and supernatural security measures.  I prefer the former if the PCs are at a power level to where they can get into a large federal building like that, and the latter if they're lower-level and might need that isolation in order to have a chance against the bad guys' security.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: devonapple on December 07, 2010, 08:55:13 PM
Quote from: admiralducksauce on December 07, 2010, 08:50:20 PM
A simple magic circle was able to keep a GPS going during a Darkhallow, right?  I don't see why there couldn't be warded computer banks using the same idea. 

We were discussing the same thing, to allow our mixed group party to operate a series of dummy terminals, but have the actual computers inside a warded circle to shield them from HEMPs (hexo-electro-magnetic pulse?). The problem was having something cross the circle. A GPS is self-powered (for awhile at least), but most PCs will require a steady power source that usually can't be contained within the circle (unless we start talking about generators).
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 07, 2010, 09:35:28 PM
I don't think there's an easy way around it, because if there was, the Council would be using it.  However, I think it works well enough for an organization that does need to have magic and computers in the same location, but seperated somewhat.  In a mixed party, yeah, I think any measure is either going to be stopgap at best or too unwieldy to move.  Like, say, I dunno, hooking up an old-school typewriter outside the warded server room or something.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: devonapple on December 07, 2010, 09:50:23 PM
Once computer technology has evolved to allow power transduction (or whatever they call it when you pass power across open space using wave signals) in conjunction with wireless data transfer, a fully warded and powered computer bank might be possible, so long as the DresdenVerse magical physics do not count waves of pure energy to be enough to "break" a circle. I don't imagine that radio waves or cellular transmissions would constitute a threat, otherwise the GPS would have compromised the warding circle fairly quickly as it exchanged data bursts with the satellite.

They would go through keyboards and monitors fairly frequently around hex-emitting spellcasters, but power wouldn't be an issue.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 07, 2010, 10:13:31 PM
Hehe.  They've got state of the art server rooms and the terminals are all decades-old CRT monitors and clacky-clacky keyboards.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Cyberchihuahua on December 08, 2010, 03:33:06 AM
To stay with the Bourne Identity theme, what if the caster was doing the mental whammy on himself? Just like transforming yourself isn't against the laws, manipulating your own mind shouldn't be, either. If the caster truly believes that what he is doing is right, there should be no damage, until...

He implants in a false personality that he lives under to infiltrate a particular organization, feeding info back to his home office. As the operation progresses, he comes to realize that the info he is retrieving has no other use than to embezzle money, or worse, may end up costing may innocent lives. This being against his nature causes his alter-ego to snap, and he goes rogue. Now he is on the run from the home office, and if he proves enough of a pain, his former handlers might even send word to the Wardens about a dangerous warlock...
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: sinker on December 08, 2010, 06:01:37 AM
Quote from: admiralducksauce on December 07, 2010, 10:13:31 PM
Hehe.  They've got state of the art server rooms and the terminals are all decades-old CRT monitors and clacky-clacky keyboards.


Reminds me of some of Charles Stross's work. :)
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: zerogain on December 08, 2010, 07:27:56 AM
About circles, Jim has commented about how its more intent than perfection that makes the circle. If, for instance the circle was made in a forest then technically there's all those twigs and such breaking the circle. I don't see why the same theory wouldn't apply to a cable trunk being an intentional part of the circle. Of course moving the cable trunk would break any circle it crossed. Makes accidentally breakage easier.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 08, 2010, 11:41:12 AM
Redundant backups and a harried IT guy.  :)  That might make for both a way for the program's files to live on after the typically high explosive PC raid as well as give the PCs something of value to make off with.

I like the idea of the guy who whammies himself, that has a lot of PC potential to it I think.  And the compels are great - Black helicopters or random assassins showing up at any time!
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Malivotti on December 08, 2010, 02:59:10 PM
Hmmm think about a White Court Vamp in Black Ops outfit. Mindbending, sexual assassins that can pull off moves straight from the Matrix.

All that's needed is for a government agency to find a White Court Virgin arrange a kidnapping then some training and you have self renewing resource.

For example let's say back in 50's Hoover's FBI in hunting for Communists find out about a certain family bloodline, the FBI is warned off when they go to arrest the White Court Vamps. Instead the MIBs watch and grab the family, Mom and Dad are disposed of but the kids are raised in best care the MIBs can give. (The news reports that the family died in tragic accident no bodies recovered from the plane crash)

After careful training the White Court Virgins are careful fed enemy agents to fully awaken them.

Fast forward...

The WCV agents are useful but there is not enough of them, enter a breeding program were the first generation is but out to stud (depending on your game adjust the 'ick' factor) and the babies of the first generation WCV are raised by the MIBs from the cradle as WCV agents.

Regards.

PS Yes I am a Delta Green/ConX veteran...  8)
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: zerogain on December 09, 2010, 07:51:57 AM
See this makes me think of a great set up for a player crew instead of adversaries.  Imagining a black-ops sanctioned team composed of a sorcerer or two, you have room for some pure mortal or adjusted mortal overseers, and of course Malivotti's WCVs (love that idea), or whatever else you want and you wind up with a group that designed to go around the country handling problems.  Hell, maybe they have a combat chaplain from the Vatican who is there Lore expert, even.  Think Father Rourke from "The Warrior" on steroids.  Perhaps if they need planes or something for the gifted folks those people could sit in a special section of the plane warded by a closed circle?  The whole organization understands that the higher ups think that they're eccentrics so the reports are sanitized when they leave the team, thus making some of the vanilla authorities more okay with this odd crew that gets it done.

Of course the organization is vested in ensuring that their team does what they want them to do, including kill on command, so any sorcerer would also have to have Lawbreaker (1st), and probably at least the organization knows about the White Council and takes pains to stay out of their way.

As Harry says in one of the stories somewhere, if the government every became officially aware of the supernatural in a big way, things would get very ugly, very fast.  Well this here's the first step to getting ugly fast.  A whole organization of sanctioned government warlocks is going to drive even the liberals on the Council totally apeshit, especially if a branch of the Church (even an expat one) thinks these folks are okay...
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 09, 2010, 09:53:15 PM
Some more ideas:

MIB types with a warehouse full of Items of Power. The agents themselves are pure mortals apart from their gear and Marked By Power (The Government).
Soldiers lost in battle against the supernatural are brought back as zombies and sent back to fight some more.
There's a secret government program to breed changelings through artificial insemination. The mothers are paid well, and most of them have no idea what the program is meant to create.
Summoned demons are being used as weapons of terror against foreign insurgents.
Some high-level guy has a burning desire to conquer the Nevernever, and he's sending soldiers to do it. The soldiers are going to have a lot of trouble rejoining society afterwards.
The entire US and Russian space programs were attempts to contact spacebound Outsiders. They succeeded a long time ago.
Title: Re: MKULTRA and government warlocks
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 09, 2010, 10:49:59 PM
Yes, yes, and more yes.  :)

Also, read this guy's PRIOR TENANT musings (http://everything2.com/title/PRIOR+TENANT).  It's a nice extrapolation of Charles Stross' A Colder War (http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm).