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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: zerogain on December 03, 2010, 04:30:31 AM

Title: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: zerogain on December 03, 2010, 04:30:31 AM: I started looking for Santa, but stumbled on this old thread: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21066.15.html

I've been toying with Oberon in my own game, but wasn't sure where to go with him. A few of the comments in here give me a good idea though. Suppose Oberon, shown at various times to be wed to both Mab and Titania (unless I'm mistaken, if I am I apologize to the Bard fans), is in fact the King of both Spring and Fall. He owns neither season wholly, and is not a tri-part being like the Mother/Queen/Lady division. Instead he shares himself between his Queens, listens to the advice of the Mothers as he will, and at one time was father to the Ladies (who's to say he's not Lily's dad?)

This would be a slight reversal on the Persephone myth as well, or could be, depending on how strong or weak Oby is.

The vernal and autumnal equinoxes then would be his chosen time, perhaps when he goes wandering for a while and then finds himself in the court of his other Queen. His Knights, if he has any, would be female, to balance the male knights who owe year round fealty to his Queens.

All this is how it was, only one year Oberon went wandering and never showed up at either court ever again. His disposition is a mystery, and without his power present his knights eventually died, their power being subsumed by the queens (the spring knight returning to Titania, the Autumn knight returning to Mab). They fey who called themselves his have since become Summer or Winter fae, or walked away and become wyldfae, only joining in when the Call is given. In his absence each queen blames the other for their beloved's loss, even still.

Vernal magic would feel like summer magic, but have a hint of winter's ice in it, and vice versa for Autumn magic, I think, and for either knight to come back fully they'd need to seperate the power from Mab and Titania... perhaps most easily done by killing either Summor or Winter knight and taking their power.

Is it possible the Erlking is Oberon? Yes, maybe even more than likely. As the Erlking said
(click to show/hide)
in Changes he no longer engages in niceties.

Edit: This thread also deals with autumn and fall courts: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17813.0.html
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Amseriah on December 03, 2010, 05:09:59 AM: I personally like all of this! I think that it would make for a great story and potential adventure: Find Oberon and bring him back before Titania and Mab destroy each other!!!
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: MijRai on December 03, 2010, 05:34:27 AM: Well, as far as Oberon being Lily's dad, I'd say it is a no. Lily was a Nixie Changeling, so she had a girl faerie mom, and a mortal dad. Now, Aurora and Maeve on the other hand... They could be Oberon's children quite easily.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Quazar on December 03, 2010, 08:09:00 AM: The Erlking can't be Oberon. The Erlking is a goblin who pulled a Darkhollow, or the equivalent, and became A Summer King. Oberon, if he exists, would have to be one of the Sidhe.

But female Knights is a brilliant idea. Though I think the proper term is Dame. The Dame of Spring, that's pretty cool.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: zerogain on December 03, 2010, 08:14:49 AM: @Quazar: Dames it is then, thank you. What's your inspiration for the Erlking's elevation? Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Quazar on December 03, 2010, 09:23:05 AM: Well it's from Changes... The Erlking removes his helmet and it's revealed he's essentially a "perfect" goblin specimen. He makes misshapen look good. Also, in one of JB's Q&As, in answer to a Darkhollow question, he says something to the effect of "how do you think the Erlking became that powerful?" So I think it's safe to assume that the Erlking was a mighty goblin who Ascended.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: deathwombat on December 03, 2010, 10:42:18 AM: Never never assume
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: The Werewolf on December 03, 2010, 12:42:47 PM: this is awesome stuff, but i doubt the erlking is Oberon
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: zerogain on December 03, 2010, 02:12:46 PM: I see. Okay, the reason I was running with that possibility is my read on what a Sidhe lord or lady is based on the RPG.

Quote
Sidhe -- Our World pg. 22
Among the faerie, Sidhe is a state of being that is somewhat political and somewhat biological. A Sidhe has all of the abilities of its faerie type, raised to greater heights of power. The Sidhe are the aristocracy of Faerie, and that mindset must be considered when dealing with them, regardless of which Court—or no Court—they are associated with.

I take this to mean that any fae can become a Sidhe, even Toot if he gets enough power and following. I'm not married to the idea that the Erlking might be Oberon though. I just thought it might be interesting that the only guy that could win both Titania and Mab wasn't some pretty boy, but a being that made ugly look good ;-)
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: TheMouse on December 03, 2010, 03:22:17 PM: Quote from: zerogain on December 03, 2010, 02:12:46 PM
I just thought it might be interesting that the only guy that could win both Titania and Mab wasn't some pretty boy, but a being that made ugly look good ;-)

Well, faeries are really good at pretty. Perhaps the thing that caught their attention wasn't pretty, but impressive. You know, one of those people that just draw your eye to them.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Quazar on December 03, 2010, 06:25:30 PM: Quote from: zerogain on December 03, 2010, 02:12:46 PM

I take this to mean that any fae can become a Sidhe, even Toot if he gets enough power and following. I'm not married to the idea that the Erlking might be Oberon though. I just thought it might be interesting that the only guy that could win both Titania and Mab wasn't some pretty boy, but a being that made ugly look good ;-)

Well if you want to make the Erlking Oberon, then I don't see a problem, after all it's YOUR game. But in Changes, JB includes this:

[The Erlking's] mouth twisted in distaste. “Now I am reminded why I do not indulge in courtesy as do the Sidhe. Such matters delight them. I find that they pall swiftly.”

So he doesn't consider himself Sidhe. He is equivalent in power, but not in nature.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: zerogain on December 03, 2010, 06:35:14 PM: Ah yes. I had that going differently in my memory. Sorry.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: HumAnnoyd on December 03, 2010, 11:02:59 PM: I always thought it would be more interesting if Oberon were the King of Spring while the Erlking was the King of Autumn. It gives you two more opposing forces to plague your players with. But maybe that is just me. <shrug>
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Quazar on December 04, 2010, 02:03:45 AM: I found the quote about the Darkhollow:

"If [Cowl]'d succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. Smiley

"For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic."

He's a though, why doesn't somebody do something with some kind of remnant of the Daoine Sidhe? They were faere who lived in the Mortal Realm. The current WC headquarters was their King's old palace, before Merlin took it from him. Maybe they were the banished remnants of an Autumn or Spring Court...
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Amseriah on December 04, 2010, 08:25:46 PM: Ok, I found the WoJ again. He stated that the Erlking is the King of Summer and that Santa is the King of Winter. I am very ok with adding in Oberon as the ruler of the Fall and Spring courts, but at least according to Jim, the Erlking already has a title and position within Summer:

Where are the Farie kings?
Yes they do. The Erlking as sort of the Hunter king, and Santa Clause, the Winter king who is not the commercial Santa Clause. The kings are sort of the opposite of the queens in their given season. They are independent of their Queen’s courts. The Erlking is not a particularly friendly guy, whereas Santa Clause is kinder, the spirit of generosity in a time of bleakness. Yah I’ve gota have Harry ask Mab about him so she can roll her eyes.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Drashna on December 04, 2010, 11:41:56 PM: Notice how the WoJ doesn't actually state what Court the Erlking is? Though from some of the other mythology, erlking could very much be oberon.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Amseriah on December 05, 2010, 12:10:52 AM: I did notice that, but assumed that it was more of a slip than intentional. It seemed as though he has been trying to make the Faerie Courts balanced forces and if Winter has a king, then Summer would too. Also Erlking seems to have opposite traits than the warmness that is common in other Summer Fae, which fits in with what he stated about Santa being the opposition to Mab. I could be wrong though, and even if I am not, once you start a game it becomes about your story not Butcher's so you can feel free to tell it however you want to. The joys of role-playing games!!! ;D
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Drashna on December 05, 2010, 08:35:34 AM: Have you read many of the WoJ?! (absolutely no offense meant) Jim has this thing about dangling info in front of us, and teasing. Revealing just enough info to make us interested and want more, but not enough to really give away anything significant (or that you haven't already suspected). I love his writing, but all the WoJ stuff makes angry! I want more INFO! And as I have DMed before, I completely understand why he does it. Which makes it worse.

Though I do think you're right about the Erlking. Well, we won't know for certain for a while, now will we? :) (curse you Jim Butcher!)
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Quazar on December 05, 2010, 11:41:36 AM: Also, there are 3 Queens of each Summer and Winter Court. There's no reason to think that there is only 1 King of Summer and 1 King of Winter. We just know of 2 with certainty.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: lordoracle on December 05, 2010, 04:58:59 PM: Actually, I'd say it's shown the Erlking is Winter Court because in Proven Guilty, when Harry uses the Summer fire on the fountain in Arctis Tor, they say the "Forces of Winter" were coming as a result. During the chase back to the Lily's portal, Harry recognizes the Erlking as a pursuer. Then in Changes, the Erlking says that if Harry's retreat at Arctis Tor had taken like a thousandths of a second longer, he'd have had him.

Quote from: Drashna on December 04, 2010, 11:41:56 PM
Notice how the WoJ doesn't actually state what Court the Erlking is? Though from some of the other mythology, erlking could very much be oberon.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: lordoracle on December 05, 2010, 05:05:33 PM: To quote Miss Teschmacher in the first Superman movie: "Uh, I know I'm gonna get rapped in the mouth for this..." but what is "WoJ"?
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Wilder on December 05, 2010, 05:13:58 PM: Don't worry. WoJ simply stands for the Word of Jim. There is a labor of love to collect and document everyone of Jim's interviews, both written and verbal, internet and live. They are used as references to establish the "canon" for the Dresdenverse.

They can be found http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/board,43.0.html (http://here) and are lovingly tended by Serack, keeper of the WoJ.
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: zerogain on December 05, 2010, 06:00:55 PM: Well, from the thread direction I guess I shoulda kept the Erlking speculation out of my OP! :P

I am building a story around what I put in here to start with, in essence a quest to find Oberon and bring him back in an effort to stop another war between Summer and Winter. In our game we have a particular gem for them to fight over, that being an independent faerie state named Emerald City (opposite of Seattle, WA in the Nevernever) ruled by dwarves (though they call themselves dvergar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_dwarves).

The same shadow groups that have been moving in the books are moving in our game. In this case they are slowly pushing for both courts to choose EC as their battleground for their next conflict, no matter how costly it is. At present neither side has moved to attack the city in force, but that's due to the delicate balance. In addition with the current state of the winter knight being inactive (yes, we've diverged from canon, right about at the start of TC), neither side is wont to disrupt the precarious balance.

However we come to it, I am loosely planning on the players' having a desperate bid to track down where Oberon went and then trying to convince this rather powerful being that they certainly couldn't fight to hie his hiney back to where it belongs in the natural order or things and restore a kinder balance between the two courts, perhaps giving room for the courts of Oberon's rule (as I have envisioned them) to flourish once more and earning some serious favor. After all they're going to need it. The Armageddon I have planned for this little shindig ought to need Faerie as their backup, since it took Marduk to kill it last time ;-)
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: sinker on December 05, 2010, 06:11:36 PM: Of note I think the faerie queens might be interesting allies/foes on a quest like this. On the one hand they both clearly want him back, but on the other hand if autumn and spring are established that would have to take power from winter and summer and they both seem like they like their power...
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: Serack on December 05, 2010, 08:01:29 PM: Quote from: Wilder on December 05, 2010, 05:13:58 PM
Don't worry. WoJ simply stands for the Word of Jim. There is a labor of love to collect and document everyone of Jim's interviews, both written and verbal, internet and live. They are used as references to establish the "canon" for the Dresdenverse.

They can be found http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/board,43.0.html (http://here) and are lovingly tended by Serack, keeper of the WoJ.

lol, officially, I think Myyrdn Eopia deserves that title as the WoJ mod. I prefer "Self proclaimed WoJ Guru."
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: miketh on December 18, 2010, 05:11:56 AM: Hey, you've got some great ideas here! Incidentally, I've been working on a piece of holiday fanfiction that will heavily borrow from *some* of your theories, and I was wondering if you'd mind before I posted it? Just to be safe ;)
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: zerogain on December 18, 2010, 05:16:11 AM: I don't mind it all. Just send me a link when you're done posting it :-)
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: miketh on December 18, 2010, 05:37:23 AM: Will do, thanks!
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: noclue on December 18, 2010, 06:34:12 AM: Well, I'm not all the way through the books, so I don't know what Jim Butcher is doing with the Erlking, but you can definitely make them the same in your game. And you'd be right.

Erlking, a German mistranslation of the Danish word for Elf King. Oberon, king of the sidhe, and the French translation of the German Alberich which means "Elf-king."
Title: Re: Oberon and the Courts of Fall and Spring
Post by: finnmckool on December 20, 2010, 05:22:11 AM: Lex! My mother lives in Hoboken!