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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Belial666 on November 21, 2010, 03:51:28 AM

Title: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 21, 2010, 03:51:28 AM
Mechanically speaking, how would you do the following considering that a single wizard or a couple of wizards cooperating did them?


1) A ward that stopped an entire army? Considerations include;
a; It must be big enough to affect an entire army ir at least block the battle lines.
b; It must be strong enough to stop outsiders and elder vampires of considerable power.
c; It must last long enough for another army to retreat.


2) Pulling a house-sized object from mid-orbit? Considerations include;
a; It is tens of thousands of miles away
b; It is the size of a house
c; Its trajectory was aimed with a few meters' accuracy
d; The wizard that did it may or may not have named it.

3) Making a volcano erupt?  Considerations include;
a; volcanic eruptions are freaking big. As in, thousands of megatons
b; a volcano is the size of a city and targeting it might or might not require enough zones to cover it
c; you need to be far enough to survive or leave right afterwards somehow

4) Causing a major earthquake?  Considerations include;
a; earthquakes are as energy-intensive as volcanoes, just pread over larger areas.
b; said large areas are the size of small countries
c; sympathetic links???
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on November 21, 2010, 04:26:21 AM
   I think the last 2 might be rather easy. Most times, when someone wants to cause a natural disaster they aren't really looking for control. They just start it off and let the chaos ensue from there. So from a game rule perspective alot of the effects of those types of things could just be seen as fallout.

   The others I don't know. We don't really have a good idea of what the Blackstaff is capable of (or even really what it is), so its hard to figure.
   The only thing I can think to add to example one is that Zone size is pretty relative, so if, from the GM perspective, the point of the scene was to portray a Badass, "You shall not pass" moment, then he could have been nice and ruled that the whole army was in one zone (actually that possibility could apply to all of the examples I guess).
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Blackblade on November 21, 2010, 05:10:17 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the soviet probe was quite a bit smaller than a house.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Wilder on November 21, 2010, 01:08:22 PM
Also remember that the last three can all be accomplished by thaumaturgy, which he had the time for. Also, prep isn't a factor due to the fact that McCoy proably had the time and  resources to really take his time and do it right. Don't forget, he has access to EVERYTHING the White Council has at its disposal.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 21, 2010, 03:17:15 PM
An upper limit for power even for Thaumaturgy would be your safely-controlled shifts per exchange times the number of exchanges you can stay awake and focused. If a thaumaturgy exchange is 20 seconds and one could control 6 shifts per exchange safely for a really powerful senior wizard, we are looking at 5000-10000 shifts of power. Is that enough for major earthquakes/volcanic eruptions?
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: sinker on November 21, 2010, 05:24:04 PM
Quote from: Nyarlathotep5150 on November 21, 2010, 04:26:21 AM
   I think the last 2 might be rather easy. Most times, when someone wants to cause a natural disaster they aren't really looking for control. They just start it off and let the chaos ensue from there. So from a game rule perspective alot of the effects of those types of things could just be seen as fallout.

Agreed. It occurred to me that the volcano could simply be a maneuver to put the aspect "Volcano gods are angry" on the scene (Maybe extra shifts for the amount of ground needed covered) and then a few properly timed compels.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Becq on November 22, 2010, 10:17:15 PM
They are Plot Devices.  As such, there are no mechanics that can adequately describe them.  Players who try to throw around such magic should be mocked.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: wolff96 on November 22, 2010, 10:34:56 PM
Quote from: Becq on November 22, 2010, 10:17:15 PM
They are Plot Devices.  As such, there are no mechanics that can adequately describe them.  Players who try to throw around such magic should be mocked.

Eh.  What about some of the spells that Harry has pulled off, then?  The wall of fire in White Night is the same kind of vulcanology on a smaller scale, as is
(click to show/hide)
  In both cases, he mentions that Earth Magic is hard to get going and difficult to stop once started.

The effects here -- other than the Ward, which I agree is NUTS -- aren't really as crazy as they seem. 

Volcano eruption?  Note that in the case of Krakatoa there was already a mountain there and it was a former volcano.  All he really had to do was provide some fissures to allow the pressure to begin escaping -- nature will handle the rest.  I think we would all agree that a little earth magic can crack a few rocks, right?  It takes frighteningly small shifts in a mountain for a 'dormant' volcano to become active again if the magma hotspot is still there...

Earthquake?  Same deal as the Volcano.  The pressure is already there.  The potential builds up over centuries or millenia and it only takes the tiniest nudge to let them slip.  Nature provides all the destruction.  There was a show on Discovery a while back about a scientist who had some preliminary data showing that a minor detonation -- on the order of single sticks of dynamite -- in the right spot could trigger a massive earthquake in a faultline.(NOTE:  If you're in an area with no faultline, then this one falls back into the 'idiotically powerful' range).

Satellite colony drop?  Orbits are incredibly fragile.  I got the sense -- which could be wrong -- that Ebenezzer didn't directly pull it down, just nudged it out of orbit on a specific course.  The media treated it as a natural occurrence, after all -- and a satellite suddenly falling DIRECTLY from orbit would be noticed... and could theoretically be explained without magic.  If your character has good Scholarship (and does the math), then puts enough distance shifts in to *nudge* an object most likely weighing less than ~1,000lbs (old Soviet probe, after all), gravity does all the real work for you.

-----------------------------------

The REAL problem, in all of these cases, is the MASSIVE number of Lawbreaker feats you're going to rack up unless you're the Blackstaff.  We're talking instant-NPC for all of them, IMO.  None of these is precision work, after all -- part of the point in each case was to show the Council's policy of disproportionate retribution and ENSURE the other supernatural factions know who is to blame.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Mickey Finn on November 22, 2010, 10:35:54 PM
Quote
Players who try to throw around such magic should be mocked.

Not here, they shouldn't.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 22, 2010, 11:43:25 PM
Quote
They are Plot Devices.  As such, there are no mechanics that can adequately describe them.

Seeing as all of them were done by only one or two wizards, no, they are not. We are told, repeatedly, that sufficiently powerful wizards that have sufficient preparation can do awfully powerful stuff.

So, suppose someone was playing a senior-council-level wizard that could level a building or flatten hundreds of enemies with a wave of their hand. Seeing as their thaumaturgy should be proportionately stronger, the player should have the ability to at least do the lower-end examples from above. If not, there is no reason for them to have thaumaturgy at all.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: iago on November 23, 2010, 12:04:03 AM
Quote from: Mickey Finn on November 22, 2010, 10:35:54 PM
Not here, they shouldn't.

Agreed. Dishing out bullying language about groups you don't see eye to eye with is a fast track to me charging up ye olde banhammer. Don't make me swing it.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Tbora on November 23, 2010, 03:41:33 AM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 22, 2010, 11:43:25 PM
Seeing as all of them were done by only one or two wizards, no, they are not. We are told, repeatedly, that sufficiently powerful wizards that have sufficient preparation can do awfully powerful stuff.

So, suppose someone was playing a senior-council-level wizard that could level a building or flatten hundreds of enemies with a wave of their hand. Seeing as their thaumaturgy should be proportionately stronger, the player should have the ability to at least do the lower-end examples from above. If not, there is no reason for them to have thaumaturgy at all.

This is kind of my take on the topic as well, their is no reason a sufficiently powerful enough PC (In Senior Council territory) couldn't pull it off imo.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 23, 2010, 03:44:05 AM
Which brings us back to the question;

How would one pull off such spells? And how would those spells be described mechanically?
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: mostlyawake on November 23, 2010, 04:40:30 AM
Great, now I'm going to have dreams about Mr. Hicks as a norse god wielding a magical Dur Banhammer. Wait, that's a good thing!  *quickly changes into pjs and dives for bed*

Seriously, we ran into a *problem* of sorts when we ran out of ideas for an appropriate scope of 500-1000 shift spells. One of my players has the idea of starting swingers clubs and then channelling that energy into spells... If you got 50 people a night doing this, you can pull of spells of easily 100 shifts.   So what happens when you've got 500?  Or you start a cult, get 2000 followers, and do a ritual?

A lot of the famous death cults/mass suicides were in the 60-300 member range.  If 300 people each give you 20 shifts of power... blamo, a 6000 shift spell.

Totally possible for a player to do. 

Yup, I get it that it's the job of the white council and such to STOP THIS MADNESS.  That's part of the game!

Still, what do you think a cult leader with 6000 shifts of power does?  (Other than to fake his corporeal death alongside his followers and become a god)?
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 23, 2010, 10:08:27 AM
The average cult leader has a serious problem with really big rituals. To control power, you need Discipline rolls. And even if you got a Discipline of 4 and call only 1 shift of power per exchange, you are still going to fail in one roll out of 81 and have 80 shifts of backlash and fallout blow up in your face. So, regardless of how many sacrifices and time they could have, minor talents and even beginner full wizards cannot access rituals of significant magnitude.


Even if you got a full wizard with superb discipline, there is another limitation; time. When you cast a spell, you need to call shifts of power continiously. And by the time the spell is big enough to require hours to cast (more on that later), it will also be so exhausting physically to stand kneeling, keep chanting and waving foci and components that your control rolls should probably be limited by your endurance.

Now, assuming a wizard could focus, stand right and keep chanting without pause for 2 hours straight before endurance becomes an issue and that each thaumaturgy exchange is 20 seconds, they could cast a spell of Power equal to 360 times the number of shifts they can control per exchange.
If you assume a wizard could keep casting for 8 hours straight instead, they can cast spells of Power equal to 1440 times the number of shifts they can control per exchange.

So, an effective Discipline of 10 for a form of magic (meaning senior council or at least a master wizard with specialization and foci in that area), you are looking at 2.000 shifts to 8.500 shifts for the most powerful levels of wizardry barring a specialized senior-council-level archwizard.


A specialized archwizard like Ebenezar McCoy in Disruption or Cowl in Necromancy easily has fantastic discipline plus a +5 specialization plus +4 focus plus +2 or +3 effective Lawbreaker bonus. You are looking at 5.000 shifts minimum for a ritual taking them 2 hours to cast, as much as 20.000 shifts if they can keep continious casting up for 8 hours.



So, the power is probably there. But how are we doing the mechanics of using it? How would you force a volcano to erupt if you had 5.000 shifts of power available?
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Bruce Coulson on November 23, 2010, 07:48:14 PM
In the case of the volcano, placing the Aspect 'Erupting' ought to do it...

Mechanically, this is a transformation (from inactive to active) aided by the fact that volcanoes do this sort of thing, so you're not fighting the basic nature of the object.  Still, you're 'taking out' a large amount of rock, so figure the metric tons to be released from the volcano in the eruption, decide how much stress each ton can take (2 plus Hulking Size?), do some calculations for your damage, and voila!

Oh, and you might want to have some plan in place for handling the Wardens who will be arriving wanting to know what happened.  Unless your volcano is in a completely uninhabitated area, you're quite likely to be killing a few people from pyroclastic flows, superheated gasesses, etc.

For our 5000 shifts, figuring 4 shifts/ton, that gives 1250 metric tons.  Which isn't much of a blast.  But what if we add explosive to the aspect and shifts? That lets us shift it up to...hmmm...10,000 metric tons.  Which still is piddling.

But, what if we contact/bargain with/bind a powerful spirit from the Never-Never?  5000 shifts of power is plenty of room for binding...or a bargaining chip for an eruption.  That's probably a better way to go.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Lanodantheon on November 23, 2010, 08:36:22 PM
My opinion for the destructive magics aside from Plot-device powerful stuff is simple, Evocations with tagged Aspects. They're Evocations done as Thaumaturgy, but Evocations nonetheless.

You are just tagging the Aspects Satellite Dresden or Volcano or similarly performing Maneuvers before-hand to prepare the devices and then pumping a lot of shifts into.

Key fact: With stuff this large, you are not in a position to care about Fallout. So that can also be a factor.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on November 23, 2010, 10:49:01 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 23, 2010, 10:08:27 AM
...each thaumaturgy exchange is 20 seconds...

See, that's why the rules are vague in my opinion. In freaking combat the exchange rate (i made a funny!) is anywhere between a few seconds and a few minutes each. So when my players want to perform rituals, I just consider the complexity a vague guideline. In fact, until you get into the ridiculously large number range (which I know is what we are talking about), I just consider each exchange to be a number of minutes equal to the complexity of the ritual.

Complexity 4 Tracking Spell that you finish in 1 exchange? 4 minutes.

Heart exploding spell, complexity 30ish that takes you 8 exchanges to finish, while seriously pushing yourself? 4 Hours.

Think about Storm Front, and Dresden feeling the energy of Victor Sell's spell building as the storm grows closer. I love that notion.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 23, 2010, 10:57:26 PM
On the other hand, we got a 26-shift entropy curse that is about finished in a couple of minutes and Victor Sells summoning a demon (10 shifts summoning?) in under a minute while Harry is ducking behind a sofa. Harry similarly casts a Ward enough to block said demon in the time it takes the demon to break his basement door and tracking spells fast enough before an arsonist has time to flee a couple of blocks.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on November 23, 2010, 11:17:39 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 23, 2010, 10:57:26 PM
On the other hand, we got a 26-shift entropy curse that is about finished in a couple of minutes and Victor Sells summoning a demon (10 shifts summoning?) in under a minute while Harry is ducking behind a sofa. Harry similarly casts a Ward enough to block said demon in the time it takes the demon to break his basement door and tracking spells fast enough before an arsonist has time to flee a couple of blocks.

The Entropy Curse had a lot of things going on with it, and some serious concerted effort by multiple people. I would personally allow something to be done quicker if there were several people working on it.

As for Victor's demon, I could just as easily see it as already summoned, and (woo game mechanics) Victor spending a Fate point for a fortuitous arrival, or simply having him appear because he was already bound and watching from the other side just out of reach. If that was the case, it was less a summoning and more an evocation to open a Way to the Nevernever. That's easily doable in a round.

Concerning Harry's Ward: it's been a while since I read the book, but weren't they standing in the prepared circle Harry had, designed for summoning? Perhaps he already had a Ward in place, and simply put forth some power to activate it. (which would be a rockin declaration)

Tracking spell on the fly? The dude has just left? The actual difficulty of that roll would be really low, 2-3 shifts I'd think in a regular investigation roll, and 2 minutes isn't that bad of a lead in a scene like that.

---------

To clarify, I'm not saying I disagree with you, just offering alternate game explanations for these things. The most important thing is always going to be the drama of the scene and what is the most fun to have happen. That will always supersede hard and fast rules.

That said, I like the complexity::minute ratio. It sets a semblance of time for the players, so that they have some idea of how long things will take before they ask. Also, if Thaumaturgy is interesting because of drama and creativity induced by either a time limit or creative description, then this always places a time factor on it, and brings that idea more readily to the forefront.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Ryan_Singer on November 24, 2010, 12:33:04 AM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 23, 2010, 10:08:27 AM
So, the power is probably there. But how are we doing the mechanics of using it? How would you force a volcano to erupt if you had 5.000 shifts of power available?

#zones*2.... Let's assume that a four zone square is = 1 square NYC block. 20 square NYC blocks = 1 square mile. Let's say it affects an area of 2 square miles. That's 160 zones, or 320 shifts.

+

Duration. A volcano erupting causes major problems for humans hanging out for about two days. Let's describe this as a "heat and poison gases" aspect on the area. We'll call it a very powerful maneuver on the scene. 5 shifts for the intense maneuver, and then 6 shifts to bring it from "one scene" to a few days.

+

One time damage. I'd say 20 shifts are enough here.

=

351 shifts?
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 24, 2010, 12:45:19 AM
A volcanic eruption heavily affects most buildings in a 5-mile radius at least. That's 78 square miles or so. Also, minor volcanic eruptions have enough force behind them to blast apart mile-thick pieces of rock. That's a bit over 20 shifts of damage. So, say 3120 shifts for the primary area effect, 500-1000 shifts for the damage and a couple hundred shifts to make a conjuration equivalent for the dust and falling pieces of rock and acid rain (instead of an aspect that has to be compelled to work instead of working automatically like environmental dangers should.

Krakatoa created shockwaves and tsunamis that killed people hundreds of miles away. But that is probably a secondary effect - if you make a 5-mile-radius blast with your spell, you cannot expect its force to dissipate with no side effects at all.

EDIT:
The spell might look like that;

Raise Volcano
Thaumaturgy Disruption 5000 shifts.
With this massive spell fueled by ridiculous preparations on your part (or the quick and dirty method of sacrificing 250 individuals) you call upon the very might of the Earth and unleash it upon a dormant volcano. The force of your spell blasts apart the path to the magma chamber below, throwing massive amounts of rock, acid and noxious fumes into the air, simulating a volcanic eruption. Tremendous backlash shakes the earth both from the force of the explosion itself and from additional power intentionally put into it and the stored energy of the volcano is unleashed prematurely. At the very least, you can make a town-sized hole into a normal mountain. In most normal volcanoes, amounts of magma and naturally produced gases follow but with little force of their own. In cases the volcano is unstable and/or has amassed significant energy, the fury of the Earth is raised, your prodding unleashing all said energy into a major, catastrophic blast of volcanic awesome. Bring lots of popcorn and body bags.
1000 points of fire/force damage, affects 1500 zones, creates 200 shifts worth of stone, acid and fumes sread by the force of the explosion, 800 shifts of Earth backlash (this is intentional backlash).
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: mostlyawake on November 24, 2010, 05:14:42 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 23, 2010, 10:08:27 AM
The average cult leader has a serious problem with really big rituals. To control power, you need Discipline rolls.


So, the power is probably there. But how are we doing the mechanics of using it? How would you force a volcano to erupt if you had 5.000 shifts of power available?

Use half the aspects tags on power, half on your discipline roll.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 24, 2010, 06:51:01 PM
Unfortunately, you cannot do that. Ritual preparation allows you to tag aspects and build up complexity. Ritual casting on the other hand has to be continious - and an aspect you create, unless otherwise noted, has to be tagged as soon as possible or lose the tag.

So if you created a bunch of aspects for discipline which you could tag in the first of 50+ rolls, but do not need to and choose not to, you lose the tags.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: devonapple on November 24, 2010, 07:24:42 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 24, 2010, 06:51:01 PM
Unfortunately, you cannot do that. Ritual preparation allows you to tag aspects and build up complexity. Ritual casting on the other hand has to be continious - and an aspect you create, unless otherwise noted, has to be tagged as soon as possible or lose the tag.

So if you created a bunch of aspects for discipline which you could tag in the first of 50+ rolls, but do not need to and choose not to, you lose the tags.

It's hard to draw the line, though, because Thaumaturgic preparations (referred to as an "uber-declaration") are treated like both an Assessment (requires time to complete) and a Declaration (in that it allows you to create Aspects which didn't exist before).

Maneuvers, as we know, create fragile or sticky Aspects which are temporary and "always go away at the end of a conflict or scene" (YS 115), and must be tagged relatively immediately to get the free bonus.

Assessments (YS 115) "However, you’re often going to use assessment as a way to prepare for a future encounter, which may not happen for several scenes. So, if you’ve discovered an aspect this way, you don’t have to worry about the usual time limit (page 106) for tagging until the first scene where you encounter the target of your assessment. Aspects discovered in this fashion are still present after these time limits expire, so they can still be invoked later."

Declarations (YS 116) "As with maneuvering (page 207) and assessment (above), the resulting aspect can be tagged. Unlike assessment, declaration doesn’t take any actual in-game time at all—just successful use of a knowledge skill at the right moment... As with assessments, aspects created with declarations don’t go away after being tagged, so long as circumstances make it reasonable that they hang around. This does mean that occasionally assessments and declarations can backfire on the character establishing them (other characters might use the same aspect, or the GM might bring that aspect back around to complicate the character’s endeavors)."

The question here is whether Declarations used for Thaumaturgical prep need to be tagged relatively immediately, like Maneuver-based Aspects (because it isn't explicitly specified otherwise) or can be tagged when they come up, like Assessments (because it isn't explicitly specified otherwise). According to my reading, either choice has to be made in absence of an explicit rule (I'm sure there's a clever logic term for it).
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: devonapple on November 24, 2010, 07:32:39 PM
That said, Harry has been Compelled once to abandon all of his ritual prep
(click to show/hide)
, as another user kindly pointed out to me as example, and had to start from scratch when he tried the ritual again, so it's reasonable to rule that the prep does "expire" if the caster is interrupted and can't complete the spell.

But the question here is: if uninterrupted and allowed to execute the ritual from start to finish, can the ritualist have created ritual preparation Declarations specifically for the Discipline checks, as well as Declarations for the Lore deficit?
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: devonapple on November 24, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
Would the question be moot if the ritual caster opted to make the Discipline check Declarations during the Control process, rather than in the ritual preparation montage? The GM would have to adjudicate these Declarations with appropriate difficulty ranks, of course.
Title: Re: Limits on magic.
Post by: Belial666 on November 24, 2010, 10:43:22 PM
As I was saying, you cannot stop to make declarations during the control process at all - otherwise the spell blows in your face.

As for discipline declarations/assessments, we don't know either way for discipline - but we don't have an example where such are used while we do have examples where Complexity declarations are used. So I tend to err on the side of caution.

Besides, if you allowed one to eschew the control for their rituals through aspects, the guy that spent more refresh on thaumaturgy than evocation would have done so for nothing.