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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Ryan_Singer on November 11, 2010, 09:44:49 PM
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Something Becq said in another thread gave me a pretty cool idea for a minor-talent like character. Basically, the character is a pure mortal with the Refresh bonus, but the high concept "Hedge Wizard".
"Spells" are cast by invoking this aspect for effect. This can do minor magic effects like lighting fires, creating light, etc. It can also be used to put a temporary aspect on the caster, the scene or another character, allowing a free tag related to what the spell was supposed to do. Wizards, of course, can invoke their concept for these uses as well, but the point of this thread is to discuss the balance of a "normal human" doing so.
This is nowhere near as powerful as channeling or ritual, but allows for a flavorful range of minor effects. Prestidigitation for DFRPG.
Any thoughts?
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Sorta falls under the section of Minor Effects in YS, but you want to make scene aspects with it? hmmm...
Could make it a -1 Refresh version of Evocation, allowing only the use of maneuvers. It could evolve then, but it seems like a good thing for a minor talent.
No more limitation really needed, just have a low Conviction and Discipline, and you can't really do huge stuff anyway then.
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Sorta falls under the section of Minor Effects in YS, but you want to make scene aspects with it? hmmm...
Could make it a -1 Refresh version of Evocation, allowing only the use of maneuvers. It could evolve then, but it seems like a good thing for a minor talent.
No more limitation really needed, just have a low Conviction and Discipline, and you can't really do huge stuff anyway then.
The -1 refresh evocation maneuvers is MUCH more powerful than just an aspect that can be invoked. 1 mental stress is far less expensive than 1 fate point. This is why the power you describe should cost the pure mortal bonus, whereas the Aspect shouldn't.
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Candlelight is a scene aspect.
It could also be used to put temporary aspects on items. A quick spell of protection or true striking comes to mind as appropriate.
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Well, the only thing that worries me is that basically, being able to create any kind of magical effect costs the pure mortal bonus. That's what minor talents are. You can't have your cake and eat it too. That bonus is for people who can't do any of that.
I can think of plenty of ways that simply being able to create a breeze or candlelight without a flashlight is a hell of a boon.
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Well, the only thing that worries me is that basically, being able to create any kind of magical effect costs the pure mortal bonus. That's what minor talents are. You can't have your cake and eat it too. That bonus is for people who can't do any of that.
I can think of plenty of ways that simply being able to create a breeze or candlelight without a flashlight is a hell of a boon.
Breeze: Manuever, medioce might: I open a window
Candlelight: Declaration: Average Resources: I happen to have a flashlight on my keyring.
This is just different trappings for things pure mortals do every day. The reason for the pure mortal bonus is because powers > stunts. A lot better.
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Ok, a compromise:
Lore Stunt:
Hedge Wizard/Witch
You can use Lore or FATE points to make declarations that create minor spells as temporary aspects on characters, items, and scenes. Placing an aspect on a character that isn't willing is a opposed roll.
This costs half of the pure human bonus, and doesn't give access to powers. All it does is add another trapping to Lore that is almost identical to Lore's existing use as a skill that you can easily make declarations with.
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OK, I have no problem with the idea of very minor magical effects using a fate point rather than a roll and stress, but I do have a problem with the character also getting the +2 Refresh for being a 'pure mortal' on top of that. I'd also find the stunt idea unacceptable too. Because what you're basically doing is saying this character has a supernatural ability, but doesn't suffer the refresh downside to having that ability. Stunts are for things any mortal can accomplish, magic is explicitly a supernatural ability, and semantics aside about powers being supernatural stunts (they're really not the same thing) supernatural abilities of any type remove a character from being pure mortal.
And the argument that you're only going to be able to do things that you could do without magic doesn't wash either. You could say the same thing about many magical maneuvers - hell one basis of thaumaturgy difficulties is "If I could do this with a skill how difficult would it be?". Yes, you're basically making declarations using your hedge magic, but they're declarations that wouldn't be possible in the same way (or at all) without magic. There's a massive difference between having a keychain flashlight or a lighter, and having a flame dancing on the palm of your hand.
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OK, I have no problem with the idea of very minor magical effects using a fate point rather than a roll and stress, but I do have a problem with the character also getting the +2 Refresh for being a 'pure mortal' on top of that. I'd also find the stunt idea unacceptable too. Because what you're basically doing is saying this character has a supernatural ability, but doesn't suffer the refresh downside to having that ability. Stunts are for things any mortal can accomplish, magic is explicitly a supernatural ability, and semantics aside about powers being supernatural stunts (they're really not the same thing) supernatural abilities of any type remove a character from being pure mortal.
And the argument that you're only going to be able to do things that you could do without magic doesn't wash either. You could say the same thing about many magical maneuvers - hell one basis of thaumaturgy difficulties is "If I could do this with a skill how difficult would it be?". Yes, you're basically making declarations using your hedge magic, but they're declarations that wouldn't be possible in the same way (or at all) without magic. There's a massive difference between having a keychain flashlight or a lighter, and having a flame dancing on the palm of your hand.
Let's all take a deep breath, and try hard not to flame each other. I assume you have positive intent, please respond with the same courtesy.
The +2 pure mortal bonus is a game balance mechanic. It's useful because powers are much more powerful per point of refresh than stunts are. the +2 refresh helps balance that.
The point of this post was trying to imagine something that doesn't have any powers at all, but still explores supernatural declarations. I understand your opinion that this is a concept that either:
a) shouldn't be explored at all
or
b) should lose the +2 refresh and might as well take powers.
My request is this: Is there anyone on the boards willing and interested in discussing a game where those two assumptions are put on hold.
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Yeah, I don't think a pure human should have access to even weak spellcasting abilities. That said, I'm not sure whether or not this really rises to the level of a 1 refresh power. After all, you are in effect spending a Fate point to allow you to perform a maneuver that places and aspect that allows you to get a free tag. Which is another was of saying that you're spending a Fate point and an action to get a +2, which is something that you could have done using mundane methods with an action but no Fate point -- but with more style. You can also do some minor tricks, most of which would be flavor.
Off hand, I think I'd say that it was a zero-refresh power. Doesn't cost refresh (though as a power, it does cost you the pure human refresh bonus, even if you have no other powers) and requires an appropriate High Concept linked to it.
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Let's all take a deep breath, and try hard not to flame each other. I assume you have positive intent, please respond with the same courtesy.
*sigh* The problem with forums like this is that the reader gets to assign tone to the post that simply isn't intended. I suggest you re-read my post and rather than envisioning someone yelling its contents at you like a drill instructor or a dalek, imagine someone amiably discussing your proposal over a drink. And do me the courtesy of not accusing me of flaming because you've misinterpreted the tone of my post.
The +2 pure mortal bonus is a game balance mechanic. It's useful because powers are much more powerful per point of refresh than stunts are. the +2 refresh helps balance that.
Yes, exactly, it's a balancing factor for someone with no supernatural abilities whatsoever.
The point of this post was trying to imagine something that doesn't have any powers at all, but still explores supernatural declarations. I understand your opinion that this is a concept that either:
a) shouldn't be explored at all
or
b) should lose the +2 refresh and might as well take powers.
Then you understand wrongly. To cover the points raised here (and again, imagine this as an amiable chat rather than an attack on you).... First up, you've just said that you want a character that has no supernatural ability, but can nevertheless make declarations that are supernatural in nature. There's a world of difference between what you're proposing as hedge magic, and making a normal declaration using a mundane skill. Using hedge magic you're creating something that doesn't already exist. Using a mundane skill means that you are taking advantage of something that already exists. Mundane declarations have to have logic behind them - you couldn't (as joe average) be stripped of all possessions and thrown naked into a cell, and then use a mundane resources declaration to say "I have a keychain flashlight on me!", certainly not without serious rationalisation as to why you'd still have it (and I'm thinking about the watch in Pulp Fiction as an example here). Using hedge magic you could make the declaration with no logical reason as to why you'd have a light source.
Point a: um, we are discussing it! I already said that I have no problems with the very minor spell casting effect using fate points rather than a purchased power but it would have to be carefully policed - full blown Wizards have to beat a difficulty of 3 to put an aspect on a scene magically, you want to be able to do that automatically without a test in the same way that a declaration works, but with the flexibility of spellcasting.
Point b: I don't quite see where you're coming from on this. The +2 bonus is exactly that, it's a bonus for playing a character with no supernatural abilities whatsoever. The moment you add an ability to use magic at any level (even if it is as minor as this) you remove the character from the category of pure mortal and no longer get the bonus. The way I see it when you're creating a character the +2 for being a pure mortal should be the last thing you deal with on your character. Think of it this way... in a 10 refresh game you create your character on the basis of 9 points worth of stunts. After you've finalised everything, if you've got no supernatural abilities you then get given 2 extra points of refresh to spend either on more stunts, or as fate points. You shouldn't be approaching character creation from the point of view of "Well, I'm a 12 Refresh character" from the start.
If you're able to cast minor effect spells by spending fate then you arguably have taken a power, you're just not spending points on it. You've still got (in a 10 refresh game) your full compliment of 9 available points to spend on stunts, and the ability to use minor magic. The only 'must' for this character is a High Concept that they can invoke for the effect.
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There is one thing that should also be considered here.
For effects a Character consciously creates, declarations are NOT the way to go.
And minor spells are something that is created at that particular moment in the game world.
You cannot declare :"I snap my fingers and now have a light flowing over my palm" or "I wave my hand and target XY get the Aspect On the ground"
You do not declare changes in the game world, you declare how the world is.
The way i see it, that's not what you wanted to do.
You want to be able to create changes and effect that other characters can notice. Like tripping someone, creating light, making a dog Dance... :-P
That'S what maneuvers are for. And if you want that to be a magical effect, it will have to be a power.
Pure mortals are pure mortals... no magic whatsoever.
That's how i see it.
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In Backup, Thomas seems to think that anyone can use magic, at least at a basic level. Which certainly fits with Butters consistently making and closing magic circles.
How or if that is incorporated into your game is a different matter, of course.
Edit: In other words, does Thomas need Ritual: Divination, or does he just invoke his "Mother's Pendant" aspect on his investigation roll to find Harry?
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In Backup, Thomas seems to think that anyone can use magic, at least at a basic level. Which certainly fits with Butters consistently making and closing magic circles.
How or if that is incorporated into your game is a different matter, of course.
Edit: In other words, does Thomas need Ritual: Divination, or does he just invoke his "Mother's Pendant" aspect on his investigation roll to find Harry?
For Butters: it seems to fall under the 'Common Rituals' Section in YS.
For Thomas: As far as the game is concerned, he used his aspect, dropped a FATE point, and declared a 'Fortuitous Arrival.'
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You do not declare changes in the game world, you declare how the world is.
Great point. Declarations are something that can easily be confusing. That said, I think that Ryan's original concept -- which was coming up with a way to allow a very minor talent to produce very minor spells through invoking aspects rather than full-blown spellcasting -- is still feasible. I think, though, that it requires a power to get access to (because you can't cast spells without either a power or a sponsor of some sort feeding you power), and given the costs and benefits of the power, 0-refresh seems not unreasonable. At most, it would be 1 refresh, and could be thought of as adding a supernatural trapping to the character's aspect.
Another way of looking at this, by the way, is to note that supernatural (or supernatural-ish) characters can invoke their High Concept to represent capabilities that set them apart from humans. What we're looking at here is a character that doesn't have any full powers as such, but has supernatural-flavored aspects. They would have a Hedge Wizard/Witch template which contains no powers (other than a zero-refresh power that exists as a marker more than anything else) but would require an appropriate High Concept which is allowed to have supernatural effects. This template would be distinct from the Pure Human template (because the character is not a pure human) and would not get the Pure Human bonus (but would have aspect-based supernatural capabilities.
There might be ways to abuse this that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but it seems reasonable. It also allows for a subsequent smooth accumulation of power, should the player choose to do so. As the character learns more about magic, he might 'trade up' the 0-refresh Hedge Magic power for a 2-refresh Channeling or Rituals, then later further upgrade to Evocation or Thaumaturgy, and perhaps ultimately learn enough to be considered a Sorceror or even a Wizard.
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Great point. Declarations are something that can easily be confusing. That said, I think that Ryan's original concept -- which was coming up with a way to allow a very minor talent to produce very minor spells through invoking aspects rather than full-blown spellcasting -- is still feasible. I think, though, that it requires a power to get access to (because you can't cast spells without either a power or a sponsor of some sort feeding you power), and given the costs and benefits of the power, 0-refresh seems not unreasonable. At most, it would be 1 refresh, and could be thought of as adding a supernatural trapping to the character's aspect.
Another way of looking at this, by the way, is to note that supernatural (or supernatural-ish) characters can invoke their High Concept to represent capabilities that set them apart from humans. What we're looking at here is a character that doesn't have any full powers as such, but has supernatural-flavored aspects. They would have a Hedge Wizard/Witch template which contains no powers (other than a zero-refresh power that exists as a marker more than anything else) but would require an appropriate High Concept which is allowed to have supernatural effects. This template would be distinct from the Pure Human template (because the character is not a pure human) and would not get the Pure Human bonus (but would have aspect-based supernatural capabilities.
There might be ways to abuse this that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but it seems reasonable. It also allows for a subsequent smooth accumulation of power, should the player choose to do so. As the character learns more about magic, he might 'trade up' the 0-refresh Hedge Magic power for a 2-refresh Channeling or Rituals, then later further upgrade to Evocation or Thaumaturgy, and perhaps ultimately learn enough to be considered a Sorceror or even a Wizard.
Ok. I like this. It's a zero-refresh placeholder power linked to a "magically active" template, that can eventually build up power if that's the direction the player wants to go.
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Ok. I like this. It's a zero-refresh placeholder power linked to a "magically active" template, that can eventually build up power if that's the direction the player wants to go.
In which case the template is NOT "Pure Mortal" and thus does not get the +2 Refresh. Pure Mortal is the only template that gets that benefit.
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Yep. I think this idea has a lot of merit though, personally. I would like to see the rules for it explored a little further.
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Yep. I think this idea has a lot of merit though, personally. I would like to see the rules for it explored a little further.
In terms of rules to explore, it's a pretty barebones idea. Template + high concept is enough for invoking for effect or for +2 to a roll. Otherwise, the character can grow by taking casting powers. Such a character could recruit a teacher, pick up thaumaturgy and eventually evocation and join the council.
Also, remember compels for accidental magic and hexing.
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Ok. I like this. It's a zero-refresh placeholder power linked to a "magically active" template, that can eventually build up power if that's the direction the player wants to go.
It's actually something you don't really need.
Any pure Mortal can take powers later in the game. As long as there's refresh, and it's somehow fitting in the story.
You'd simply loose the +2 refresh bonus as soon as you take on any powers.
No placeholder power needed.
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Yeah, but the power does take them out of the realm of pure mortal and into the realm of minor talent without needing to spend the refresh on large scale powers they don't want.
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It's actually something you don't really need.
Any pure Mortal can take powers later in the game. As long as there's refresh, and it's somehow fitting in the story.
You'd simply loose the +2 refresh bonus as soon as you take on any powers.
No placeholder power needed.
This was my original perception, too. It seems, though, that the consensus is that any kind of supernatural trapping requires giving up the pure mortal bonus, even if, mechanically, it's nothing more than a supernatural aspect and normal invokes and compels.
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This was my original perception, too. It seems, though, that the consensus is that any kind of supernatural trapping requires giving up the pure mortal bonus, even if, mechanically, it's nothing more than a supernatural aspect and normal invokes and compels.
Ah ok now i understand, that requires the possibility of effects through Aspect compels and the like, which personally, i think is not how it works.
You don't get trappings through aspects. Aspects only provide legitimation for certain trappings.
As i already mentioned before, I think invokes, compels and declarations do not constitute effects a character generates. They constitute changes the player makes to the game world based on certain aspects of the character. From a character perspective they are not changes or effects at all, they don't happen... they just are.
So if you actually want the character to produce effects, you need a power, and as soon as you have a power you're not a pure mortal anymore. But even then, you cannot produce effects through aspect invokes or compels. So yeah, supernatural trappings of any kind, since they require a power, make you loose your pure mortal bonus.
Anyways, that has nothing to do with being able to take on powers later. That's possible for any and all characters, pure mortal or not.
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So if you actually want the character to produce effects, you need a power, and as soon as you have a power you're not a pure mortal anymore. But even then, you cannot produce effects through aspect invokes or compels. So yeah, supernatural trappings of any kind, since they require a power, make you loose your pure mortal bonus.
This is actually what I meant when I was saying I'd like to see the rules fleshed out for the power, I'm just bad at articulating when I'm in a rush.
I actually think this might work, more or less...
Hedge Wizard [-0]
This power allows you to use maneuvers as per evocation, with the restriction that the power may never be high than 3 shifts. This power also allows you to produce Minor Effects when and where appropriate. A character taking this power should have an aspect representative of it. Though not strictly required, players are encouraged to treat these effects with a certain theme, such as: Medicine Man, Hearth Witch, and the like.
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This is actually what I meant when I was saying I'd like to see the rules fleshed out for the power, I'm just bad at articulating when I'm in a rush.
I actually think this might work, more or less...
Hedge Wizard [-0]
This power allows you to use maneuvers as per evocation, with the restriction that the power may never be high than 3 shifts. This power also allows you to produce Minor Effects when and where appropriate. A character taking this power should have an aspect representative of it. Though not strictly required, players are encouraged to treat these effects with a certain theme, such as: Medicine Man, Hearth Witch, and the like.
Well, thats way more useful than some of the Minor abilities from YS, even with the power limitation... so why would this cost 0 Refresh ?
I think it would definitely be a -1 power.
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I'd say that if you can do it using evocation style mental stress, it should cost a point of refresh. My original concept was that it would cost a fate point every time but not require a roll.
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I'd say that if you can do it using evocation style mental stress, it should cost a point of refresh. My original concept was that it would cost a fate point every time but not require a roll.
Agreed. And in either case, the effects should be limited to a single element/them/function/whatever, similarly to Channelers or Ritualists (but with much less capability).
Having the capacity for limited 3-shift magic sound like roughly a -1 power ... maybe. Though really, if you want to be able to use magic for more than flavor-level tricks, you should take a spellcasting power.
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I might be in the minority here, but I might let someone keep the Pure Mortal bonus even if they weren't purely mortal. As long as their powers didn't do anything that stunts couldn't, I wouldn't have a problem. It doesn't unbalance the game and, since Refresh is an abstract rules concept, it doesn't affect the consistency of the game world.
That said, I like the first power writeup. Would you consider adding it to the custom power thread?
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That said, I like the first power writeup. Would you consider adding it to the custom power thread?
Are you talking about the one I wrote? How do you feel about the refresh cost. I think I agree that it should be [-1], the more I look at it.
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Sorry, I was unclear. I meant Becq's idea. Yours should indeed probably cost [-1]. But once you've raised the cost, you might as well offer attacks and blocks as well. Three shift evocation won't break any games, and when you take into account the lack of focus slots it looks quite reasonable.
Put it on the custom power thread if you want better feedback.
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Meh, it's cool, I was just curious. I sort of just tossed that out there. I might add something to that thread, but it'll be my own thing, more than likely.