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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: cgodfrey7 on November 11, 2010, 05:19:32 AM
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p276 A ward is basically a very potent version of a block using thaumaturgy instead of evocation.
It must be late, but I was trying to figure out why a wizard would make a 8 shift ward when he could make a 24 or 40 shift ward instead? Other than being game breaking with the PCs not being able to break through, am I missing some limiting factor?
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p276 A ward is basically a very potent version of a block using thaumaturgy instead of evocation.
It must be late, but I was trying to figure out why a wizard would make a 8 shift ward when he could make a 24 or 40 shift ward instead? Other than being game breaking with the PCs not being able to break through, am I missing some limiting factor?
It takes more time and effort to perform mechanically.
And a wizard PC could theoretically do a 30-40 shift ward if they felt like it, in the game as demonstrated in the books epic rituals ARE supposed to be possible though difficult. That is the whole point why they spent an entire chapter on wizards and magic; Wizards when given time to prepare are ridiculously powerful and on purpose.
That is why as a GM you have to ambush them and not given them time to do so until the Epic Climax when they can really shine :D
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Tbora is mostly right.
To me the correct answer is: because wizards can't!
As all thaumaturgy wards are limited by certain things. One is the Lore skill of the wizard witch determines how strong a thaumaturgic spell can be without preparation. This can be boosted by declaration, spending FP to invoke aspects or accepting/inflicting consequences or skipping scenes. However: this will bring the wizard only so far. He'll probably not have a ton of FP to spend in the first place. He'll be hesitant to take or inflict dire consequences on him or others. So the most likely source of complexity boosts comes from declarations.
Thing is that declarations are still something the GM has a lot of control over. The declarations are likely to be pretty difficult (at least an effort of Great +4 should be appropriate following declaration guidelines, possibly even Fantastic +6). It's also likely that the player will not be able to come up with a huge number of reasonable declarations. If the GM is of the opinion that the declarations of the player stopped making sense he may decline them outright, witch the player should then except.
If we put all this together, it is very unlikely that a player will be able to bring together a 30-40 shift ward. At the very least they'll be very difficult and time consuming, because giving enough time (a.k.a. skipping enough in session scenes) the wizard can accomplish hell of a lot.
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This is a guideline on what is doable for a 1-scene spell in terms of complexity. It is more or less what Harry Dresden does to summon the Erlking, minus a True Name aspect. These can be applied to almost all thaumaturgies you way want do - and while Harry probably spent several more scenes researching the thing to acheive enough complexity for the Erlking, thse shifts should be enough for most other things;
5 from the wizard's Lore, and possibly specialization or foci.
4 from mild consequences that will be gone a couple of scenes later.
4 from a moderate consequence, that will remain for the rest of the session.
4 from two Lore declarations - finding/making an effective incantation for the spell and using appropriate symbolism.
4 from two Discipline declarations - clearing your mind of all distractions and executing the ritual actions with perfect control.
4 from two Conviction declarations - believing absolutely that this must be done and calling in power to charge a strong magic circle.
2 from one Resources declaration - quality materials
2 from one contacts or one scholarship declaration - research previous wizards' works on the subject.
That's 25-29 shifts.
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This is a guideline on what is doable for a 1-scene spell in terms of complexity. It is more or less what Harry Dresden does to summon the Erlking, minus a True Name aspect. These can be applied to almost all thaumaturgies you way want do - and while Harry probably spent several more scenes researching the thing to acheive enough complexity for the Erlking, thse shifts should be enough for most other things;
5 from the wizard's Lore, and possibly specialization or foci.
4 from mild consequences that will be gone a couple of scenes later.
4 from a moderate consequence, that will remain for the rest of the session.
4 from two Lore declarations - finding/making an effective incantation for the spell and using appropriate symbolism.
4 from two Discipline declarations - clearing your mind of all distractions and executing the ritual actions with perfect control.
4 from two Conviction declarations - believing absolutely that this must be done and calling in power to charge a strong magic circle.
2 from one Resources declaration - quality materials
2 from one contacts or one scholarship declaration - research previous wizards' works on the subject.
That's 25-29 shifts.
I don't dispute this and we had this discussion before. It is (VERY) technically possible to do enough prep to come to this kind of complexity. However: the chance that you as a player will be able to pull all these declarations of is slim to the point of impossibility, if the guidelines on declarations that are in the book are followed.
Your 25-29 shifts are purely theoretical in the actual game and more or less hypothetical in terms of canon. If you choose to allow the wizard player in your game to just make declarations all day and night then yes: There is absolutely no limit to how big any kind of thaumaturgy can get. Witch in my opinion is absolutely stupid and not in line with the canon at all. No offence meant.
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Makes you wonder how powerful that ward the Merlin raised in Dead Beat to stop the entire Red Court + Demons/Outsiders was.
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Not to mention that, by my count, that ritual would take several days to cast. I mean, the research time on incantations and symbolism alone could be a day or more.
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Personal Speculation: The Merlin can cast Thaumaturgy [Wards] with the Speed of Evocation.
Which, frankly, is freaking scary.
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Personal Speculation: The Merlin can cast Thaumaturgy [Wards] with the Speed of Evocation.
Which, frankly, is freaking scary.
Yes. I would give him something like:
Sponsored Magic: Defensive magic.
This would let him rack up sponsor debt that forces him to be reactive and turtley on blocks and wards, and also cast wards using evocation.
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Either that, or the 'ward' that he cast was simply a large, powerful block (which is very similar to a ward).
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He also might have started with a Block, supplemented by the Gatekeeper (I think he was there at the time), and then used the time it bought him to bring up an absolutely kick-ass ward.
Cause, really, who's going to get through like a 14-15 shift block, which he could toss around pretty easily and be standing, just according to his stats in Our World, which are admittedly low.
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4 from mild consequences that will be gone a couple of scenes later.
4 from a moderate consequence, that will remain for the rest of the session.
A mild consequence only contributes two shifts. Just nit-picking. :)
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Yeah, but many wizards have 2 milds (1 extra from high conviction)
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Yeah, but many wizards have 2 milds (1 extra from high conviction)
If by "many" you mean "only the truly exceptional few who", then I concur.
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If by "many" you mean "only the truly exceptional few who", then I concur.
He said Wizard, not practitioner. I suspect most wizards are going to hE at least. 4 or 5 in at least one of the three... and that wild mean about a third... and that's the young wizards. The older ones will be even more significant.
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The absolute minimum refresh for wizard is Chest-Deep. And Chest-Deep characters can and do have superb skills. A wizard will almost certainly have one of their superb skills as Lore, Discipline or Conviction, and from the three Conviction will usually be it because a minimum-refresh wizard is a wizard just discovering their powers. They have the raw power but control (Discipline) and arcane knowledge (Lore) they have yet to learn. That is probably why they so easily become warlocks as well; they believe in themselves and their power and nothing else.
So, there's a fairly high chance a minimum-refresh (i.e. very inexperienced) wizard is going to have superb Conviction. And as Morfedel said, that's for newbie wizards. More experienced ones are bound to have developed their strength so 5 conviction is a given.
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Cause, really, who's going to get through like a 14-15 shift block, which he could toss around pretty easily and be standing, just according to his stats in Our World, which are admittedly low.
Getting through a 14-15 shift block should be simple for half a dozen Red Court. Assuming an average fist roll of 2, plus an extra four shifts damage from Claws+Inhuman Strength, plus 5 tags from Might/Fist/Athletic maneuvers by the other five vampires gives 16 shifts of effect. Should theoretically work.
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Getting through a 14-15 shift block should be simple for half a dozen Red Court. Assuming an average fist roll of 2, plus an extra four shifts damage from Claws+Inhuman Strength, plus 5 tags from Might/Fist/Athletic maneuvers by the other five vampires gives 16 shifts of effect. Should theoretically work.
If they were working together like that. I suspect that in the mad clash of battle, they won't be quite that organized - especially if a lot of those vampires are of the newbie-cannon-fodder variety.
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plus an extra four shifts damage from Claws+Inhuman Strength,
Doesn't matter what your damage bonus is. Only your skill for attack matters in overcoming the ward. If you'd rather use physical strength, use your might skill instead.
plus 5 tags from Might/Fist/Athletic maneuvers by the other five vampires gives 16 shifts of effect.
And how, exactly, do you propose those tags help for an attack roll? How are you using your might/athletics/fists on your ally to increase their own attack? Aspects have to fit the action you want to boost. If you want to help someone attack with those skills, you'll probably have to use skills to add aspects to their opponents. Problem is, the Ward defends with its own rating of 16, making that kind of hard to do.
In short, a bunch of vampires are not going to pass through a 15-shift Ward, at least not easily. Just like a dozen humans can't bring down a steel wall with their fists regardless of cooperation; there is simply no way for them to increase eachother's skill using their own physical skills. If, on the other hand, they buy specialized vault-breaching tools, they CAN add up their craftmanship tags to help breach the vault door. Ditto for the vampires; if they have something that could actually be used to boost their allies' skill against a Ward (say, some sort of magic or supernatural power), they could add tags to eachother.
The only way cooperation would matter if you don't have justification for tagging aspects is the law of averages. A vampire with might of 3 and +6 from supernatural strength has a result of +9. If you got 81 such vampires pushing at that ward, at least one is going to roll a +4 and pay a fate point for a +2 and breach it. The other 80 vampires though? Those will be fried by the Ward's attack reflection property.
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Yes, but the vampires could obviously spend a round or two making Declarations and/or maneuvers relating to weak spots, attack types most likely to succeed, the favorite color of the caster, the lack of a balanced breakfast eaten by the caster, the phase of the moon, the alignment of the zodiac symbols, and -- in short -- create a number of aspects equal or greater than those used to cast the block in the first place. Boom. No more block.
Or the vampires could tear it down by brute force. When *targeting* a Ward, the Ward's strength becomes a stress track. So the vampires would take turns inflicting perhaps 6 or so stress (and having to resist against a 6 or so shift attack) until they reduced the strength of the ward enough to knock it down with a final blow.
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Declarations have to make sense. They ate also subject to not succeeding.
Also, there's such a thing ad being too rules-lawyery / metagamie. Frankly, after certain point, I'd draw the line.
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Declarations have to make sense. They ate also subject to not succeeding.
Also, there's such a thing ad being too rules-lawyery / metagamie. Frankly, after certain point, I'd draw the line.
I agree. But I was responding to Belial, who has been known to suggest that generating dozens of aspects via maneuvers per hour for several hours in order to power a Thaumaturgy with a stength in the hundreds was 'normal'. When in Rome, says I...
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I agree. But I was responding to Belial, who has been known to suggest that generating dozens of aspects via maneuvers per hour for several hours in order to power a Thaumaturgy with a stength in the hundreds was 'normal'. When in Rome, says I...
Ah, I see. Well, there is clearly a limit between building powering a powerful ritual and playing games - or metagames - with the rules to accomplish powergame silliness.
The trick.is distinguishing the two ;)
It can Ben fun as an intellectual exercise, but in a.game should be limited and.controlled.
Otherwise Harry would not have had the problems he had, heh. Perhaps when in doubt, put a max limit equal to lore for aspects you can tag for a ritual... requiring the rest to be invoked.
Me, I'll hope in my games common sense will prevail, not requiring such rules.
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I learned something new today; An aspect must be tagged as soon as you can - you can't put off tagging it to do something else (such as generating more aspects). The vampires can't wait to amass aspects cause they need to tag them when they perform the action. The ritualist on the other hand, can generate and tag aspects, generate and tag - because declarations are part of the preparation for the ritual and can be tagged in advance, they don't have to be tagged while casting the ritual.
Secondly, applying aspects on a target (i.e. the Ward) allow the target to defend as approriate. You can't just declare that your target has that aspect by rolling a 3 or higher - you need to roll higher than their defense.
Third, when attacking the Ward itself, the ward's strength is a stress track but that only applies for attacks exceeding the ward's strength in the first place.
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I learned something new today; An aspect must be tagged as soon as you can - you can't put off tagging it to do something else (such as generating more aspects). The vampires can't wait to amass aspects cause they need to tag them when they perform the action.
Not true. "A tag is subject to one key limitation: it must occur almost immediately after the aspect has been brought into play. Some minor delay is acceptable, but should be avoided when possible. At worst, a tag should happen sometime during the scene in which it was established." (YS115)
The ritualist on the other hand, can generate and tag aspects, generate and tag - because declarations are part of the preparation for the ritual and can be tagged in advance, they don't have to be tagged while casting the ritual.
Not precisely true. For rituals, you are not making Declarations in the same sense of the word as used elsewhere. Instead, you are "declaring a mini-scene (represented mechanically by a skill use) relevant to your preparation". The difference is that mini-scenes require a (TBD) time commitment, whereas the standard Declarations don't. In this sense, ritual-flavored mini-scene declarations are more akin to Assessments than Declarations.
Secondly, applying aspects on a target (i.e. the Ward) allow the target to defend as approriate. You can't just declare that your target has that aspect by rolling a 3 or higher - you need to roll higher than their defense.
If the target is an opponent, then they get a defense roll. If the target is the environment, then the difficulty is fixed and is determined by the GM. This is for maneuvers; declarations use a different difficulty system based on how interesting the declaration is. The difficulty of '3' only applies as a minimum power for spell-based maneuvers against the environment.
Third, when attacking the Ward itself, the ward's strength is a stress track but that only applies for attacks exceeding the ward's strength in the first place.
So it seems. Which means that the leeches would have to go with the 'dogpile' strategy, applying maneuvers until they had enough taggable aspects to knock it down (or at least to damage it, thus avoiding damage themselves).
Perhaps when in doubt, put a max limit equal to lore for aspects you can tag for a ritual... requiring the rest to be invoked.
I'm kind of thinking that using Lore as a limit on the number of mini-scenes that can be declared to power a ritual might be pretty decent as a guideline. This would create a soft "limit" of triple your Lore for a ritual's complexity. Of course, you could still invoke other aspects with Fate as you mentioned, or take consequences, etc to build it up higher. Another way to provide a limit might be to increase the skill roll difficulty for the next mini-scene based on the number of mini-scenes already declared. (Ie, still limited based on skill, but less directly.) Note that I'd include "scenes skipped" in this total.
I understand why they wanted to keep the rules a bit less than fully defined, but at the same time, it seems to me a ritual "story" should rely on a handful of flavorful, pithy mini-scenes, rather than a long checklist of standard preparations that are undergone procedurally for every ritual. Otherwise, why wouldn't *every* Wizard have a 60+ strength ward with a duration of their expected lifetime (about +12 on the time chart, assuming a duration of "several mortal lifetimes")? Even if the Wizard just prepared by resting a lot (using the basic +1 per scene), this would only take a few days (or a bit longer if he threw in a few more bells and whistles), and then he'd never have to worry about it again. (Not even if someone breached it, since anyone breaching it would certainly shorten the Wizard's lifespan to "a few moments" if not "instant".) :)