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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ironpoet on November 05, 2010, 07:14:49 PM

Title: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: ironpoet on November 05, 2010, 07:14:49 PM
When do people actually roll the dice to cast a Thaumaturgy spell?  The section "When Not To Bother" (Your Story, page 270) suggests that there's no point in rolling if the results would be undramatic (i.e. if you have lots of time to build up power, or nothing interesting would come from failing to cast the spell.)

So how have you (or would you) make casting a Thaumaturgy spell interesting?

Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Becq on November 05, 2010, 07:26:05 PM
Perhaps another caster is using Thaumaturgy to oppose your spell, and net successes matter?  Or perhaps you are trying to defend against another Thaumaturgy, and who finishes the spell first is significant?
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Drashna on November 05, 2010, 08:01:05 PM
Thaumaturgy, as a rule *isn't* interesting.  Though if you really want to know why, check the "Running the Game" section.  Basically, if there is no real risk to failure, and no real reward for success (other than completing the ritual), then dice shouldn't be rolled.  But stuff like summoning and bind should probably ALWAYS be rolled because of the nature of what's happening.

See YS309, the section on "When to call for a roll".
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: ironpoet on November 05, 2010, 08:45:15 PM
Quote from: Becq on November 05, 2010, 07:26:05 PM
Perhaps another caster is using Thaumaturgy to oppose your spell, and net successes matter?  Or perhaps you are trying to defend against another Thaumaturgy, and who finishes the spell first is significant?

That's a good suggestion.  Can you think of any game/story situations where "first to the finish line" would matter?
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: babel2uk on November 05, 2010, 08:51:13 PM
Quote from: ironpoet on November 05, 2010, 08:45:15 PM
That's a good suggestion.  Can you think of any game/story situations where "first to the finish line" would matter?

Not exactly the way it happened in the book, but the Dead Beat idea of summoning the Erl King before the bad guys could do so is probably a good basic idea. Obviously you'd need a story reason why the rituals would have to be started at a similar time. But then you've got a race to the finish line situation.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: ironpoet on November 05, 2010, 08:52:19 PM
Quote from: Drashna on November 05, 2010, 08:01:05 PM
Thaumaturgy, as a rule *isn't* interesting.  Though if you really want to know why, check the "Running the Game" section.  Basically, if there is no real risk to failure, and no real reward for success (other than completing the ritual), then dice shouldn't be rolled.  But stuff like summoning and bind should probably ALWAYS be rolled because of the nature of what's happening.

See YS309, the section on "When to call for a roll".

I agree with this, more or less, but there are a lot of rules for "How To Cast Thaumaturgy".  Therefore, in theory both the GM and player should go out of their way to find interesting uses for it.

In game I've been playing in, so far my (Lore +5) wizard has cast a few "CSI"-like Divination spells, and we haven't rolled for them.  But I'm hoping to find a way to try out the Thaumaturgy rules in a more dramatic situation.  Summoning and binding (and contested rolls in general) can't be the only time that Thaumaturgy is interesting, right?

I guess I'm looking for story guidelines/suggestions, as opposed to mechanical guidelines/suggestions.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Becq on November 05, 2010, 09:19:44 PM
Quote from: ironpoet on November 05, 2010, 08:45:15 PM
That's a good suggestion.  Can you think of any game/story situations where "first to the finish line" would matter?
A small child is missing, and the player find out that the Bad Guy is using her to cast an ascension ritual ... but where?  The player is given a lock of hair by her distraught parents, and the race is on...

or

As a variation, the player finds out that the Bad Guy wants the small child for an ascension ritual.  He rushes over to protect her, but arrives at the same time as the Bad Guy.  They fight, stalemate occurs, much verbosity which indicates that he hasn't got her yet but with the Awesome Power at his fingertips it's only a matter of time, then he runs off to start his ritual, taking the girl's teddy bear with him.  The player grabs a link, too, and the race is on...

or

The players break into the Bad Guy's (formerly) secret lair in the hopes of interrupting the Death Ritual he's casting against one of the players.  Unfortunately, he is nearling completion, and is safely inside a high-strength ward which must be broken down with powerful magic ... and soon.  The race is on.

Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Drashna on November 05, 2010, 09:23:06 PM
I tried to think of examples from the books... and it basically boils down to, the only exciting rituals are the ones that are time sensitive. Basically Harry vs The Clock, or Harry vs BBEG.
(click to show/hide)
.   See the theme? See my point?

And while there are a lot of "how to do this" or "how to do that", it's mostly mechanical stuff, and generally assumes you have time in spades. Like crafting. Or veils/wards.

Though, anything that is "opposed" may be good options for rolling. Like tracking spells.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Becq on November 05, 2010, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: Drashna on November 05, 2010, 09:23:06 PM
I tried to think of examples from the books... and it basically boils down to, the only exciting rituals are the ones that are time sensitive. Basically Harry vs The Clock, or Harry vs BBEG.
(click to show/hide)
.   See the theme? See my point?
Yup.  Most of Harry's rituals just involve him making Declarations regarding ingredients ... much like in the DFRPG rules.  :)
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Kaldra on November 05, 2010, 10:28:46 PM
i personaly talk the whole thing out like harry does in small favor while the hobbs be attacking.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: JustinS on November 12, 2010, 04:20:37 AM
After a number of uses of Thamatergy, I still have not rolled control to cast. The interesting bits are finding a link to the target, and the prep-work. Then seeing what I can pull off with my effect.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Selrach on November 12, 2010, 06:00:50 AM
The only real time it needs to rolled are in time sensitive situations are where the wizard is attempting to use more shifts than he could safely handle.

The real fun of Thaumaturgy relies more on the storytelling and the preparation. It's all nice and dandy if you cast a voodoo curse on someone in the standard fashion, but it's a lot cooler if you use a punching bag instead of a doll and your martial artist friend instead of needles.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Belial666 on November 12, 2010, 05:38:37 PM
Actually, that isn't entirely correct. Even if you got 4 discipline, calling power is dangerous. You might roll a -4 (1 in 81 chance) and take huge backlash and fallout.
In addition, the GM might compel aspects or consequences you have or the scene has to make you fail, even if you got the discipline for it.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: ironpoet on November 12, 2010, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 12, 2010, 05:38:37 PM
Actually, that isn't entirely correct. Even if you got 4 discipline, calling power is dangerous. You might roll a -4 (1 in 81 chance) and take huge backlash and fallout.
In addition, the GM might compel aspects or consequences you have or the scene has to make you fail, even if you got the discipline for it.

Yes, mechanically, it's possible to screw up a Thaumaturgy spell, but dramatically it's often not that interesting.  (Your Story, page 270)  Or, alternatively, failing to cast the spell might be dramatic, but it would ruin the mood of the scene/story.  ("You've failed to control your investigation spell.  All your evidence is destroyed in a burst of flames.")

So far, we've determined that the following make for dramatic Thaumatrugy:

What about interesting fallout or failure options?  You mentioned Compels, for example.  When would you Compel someone to fail a Thaumaturgy roll?  Or how would you use Backlash and/or Fallout from a botched control roll to move a story forward?
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Becq on November 12, 2010, 07:44:00 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 12, 2010, 05:38:37 PM
Actually, that isn't entirely correct. Even if you got 4 discipline, calling power is dangerous. You might roll a -4 (1 in 81 chance) and take huge backlash and fallout.
In addition, the GM might compel aspects or consequences you have or the scene has to make you fail, even if you got the discipline for it.
A prudent Wizard would make sure that he had (at the very least) one Fate point handy, to invoke his High Concept for a +2, thus avoiding this sort of catastrophe.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: babel2uk on November 15, 2010, 09:57:37 AM
Quote from: Belial666 on November 12, 2010, 05:38:37 PM
Actually, that isn't entirely correct. Even if you got 4 discipline, calling power is dangerous. You might roll a -4 (1 in 81 chance) and take huge backlash and fallout.

I've seen that happen 3 times in a row for one of the PCs in my game. The other PCs are now really wary about her casting any spells at all.  :D
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Becq on November 15, 2010, 10:41:48 PM
If I were that player, I'd rewrite an aspect to "Magic, don't fail me now!" or "Piece of cake -- what could possibly go wrong?!" as soon as possible, so that any time my magic failed me that badly I could argue for a self-compel.  (And because it would amuse me to have such an aspect.)  :p
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on November 16, 2010, 01:09:45 PM
In that vein, my trouble aspect for the Winter Knight I've been playing is: Nothing Is Ever Simple.

In the first game so far, it's been used to complicate rituals, rescues, evocations, and, because the character doesn't really understand fire well (grew up in Winter) he smashed out a window in a fire to make an escape, and nearly killed the party with the backdraft. :)

In short, it's been awesome having an aspect like that, cause I neeeeeed those fate points for the debt I'm racking up.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: devonapple on November 18, 2010, 03:51:11 AM
Quote from: babel2uk on November 15, 2010, 09:57:37 AM
I've seen that happen 3 times in a row for one of the PCs in my game. The other PCs are now really wary about her casting any spells at all.  :D

I saw that happen 3 times when the ritualist was limiting it to just 1 shift per exchange.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: ralexs1991 on November 18, 2010, 03:00:26 PM
Quote from: Kaldra on November 05, 2010, 10:28:46 PM
i personaly talk the whole thing out like harry does in small favor while the hobbs be attacking.

that sounds like a good idea i'll have to try that instead of having thaum done off stage  :P
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: Kaldra on November 18, 2010, 05:21:35 PM
:) glad i could help, it really shines if your players or yourself can improv how random arse items that would go into the casting, hallmarks of this would be the time i called for a bra, handcuffs, liquid diet shake, and a few other items for a potion that would induce copious amounts of control.
Title: Re: How do you make Thaumaturgy casting interesting?
Post by: ralexs1991 on November 19, 2010, 01:05:43 PM
Quote from: Kaldra on November 18, 2010, 05:21:35 PM
:) glad i could help, it really shines if your players or yourself can improv how random arse items that would go into the casting, hallmarks of this would be the time i called for a bra, handcuffs, liquid diet shake, and a few other items for a potion that would induce copious amounts of control.

that has to be the most random ingedient list ever haha  :D