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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Wyldfire on November 02, 2010, 10:32:00 PM
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This came up in a game the other night. Can a non-spellcasting character gain a magic-item slot? Say a Wizard creates a magical item for another character; is there some way that character can "buy" the right to own the item, or is it permanently tied to the wizard who made it? Am I missing this in the book? Should I home-brew a rule?
Opinions?
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The rules are pretty straight forward when it comes to this topic. I do not necessarily agree but the mortal can not have any magic that is not paid for by another character otherwise the mortal character will lose the 2 bonus mortal refresh.
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Well, I created a stunt that would allow you to have enchanted items without the ability to make them. It's on the Homebrew Stunts thread. I'm not sure if it is reasonable or balanced, since nobody gave me any feedback.
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i think its fine, allot of my players have made use of it just fine.
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This came up in a game the other night. Can a non-spellcasting character gain a magic-item slot? Say a Wizard creates a magical item for another character; is there some way that character can "buy" the right to own the item, or is it permanently tied to the wizard who made it? Am I missing this in the book? Should I home-brew a rule?
Couldn't the non spell caster could just buy the item as an Item of Power, with the cost based on what it does?
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Couldn't the non spell caster could just buy the item as an Item of Power, with the cost based on what it does?
This is what one of my players did. While his concept is a pure mortal, the magic rings he has technically are an Item of Power and he loses his refresh bonus according to the rules.
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hmmm i dont know if i would make my pure mortals loose refresh from pure mortal, if it works into the story or if they work with one of the other players to make it work out because honestly in the end the casters could just make the items usable by others and pass em around, all it requires is a tad more work on the casters end.
and by making them spend a point of refresh on a stunt or power however you classify it to be able to use the item they are already giving up part of themselves to use that item.
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Should depend on if the wizard is still keeping the items listed on his refresh cost. If he has them sure they are equivant to "potions" he passes around. Imo if the wizard makes magical items to hand out the mortals will have to pay the refresh cost for them based on "item of power" prices, which means you are no longer a full mortal. The Hexenwolf FBI guys are a good example... 90% sure they are not listed as pure mortals.
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Don't enchanted items technically require "topping up" by the wizard/enchanter that created them? I thought that was the reason you only get so many uses per scene, so the wizard needs to spend the slot (and reduce the strength to allow another character to use it)
Anything enchanted enough not to require "topping up" I would class as an item of power, though I wouldn't make a mortal pay for it if they were not aware of the full abilities
One of the PCs in my last game had an aspect of "Heiroglyphic pendant" that I could compell to give the character prophetic dreams, but I didn't make the character pay for it in powers.
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I'm not too sure about the Topping off by a wizard, remember Harry's rings held back a bit of kinetic energy each time he moved his arms and once he did a half an hour of heavy bag to grab a charge back instead of just looking at it all cross eyed saying strange words. This strikes me that you can make an item that can be recharge by alt. methods, Elaine, if I'm remembering right, said one of her items could be charged from a wall outlet. Maybe you need to toss a ring in a fire for a bit so you can let a jet of flame out again, the possibilities are varied.
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For my games, I'd say that whoever pays the refresh for the items is the one who sets item power with Lore.
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For my games, I'd say that whoever pays the refresh for the items is the one who sets item power with Lore.
Of course, for Item's of Power, Lore doesn't set power, embedded abilities do.
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On a related note: I was talking to my GM the other day, and I expressed my displeasure that Ritualist (Crafter) didn't give you anything that you don't get from Ritualist (Anything Else), and thus shouldn't be worth the same -2 Refresh.
It was only after reading this thread tonight that I realized Ritualist (Crafter) should be a -1 refresh power, and is basically Refinement without casting. -1 refresh, and you get 2 Focus Item slots, or 4 Enchanted Item slots. When I built my artificer, I wondered who in their right mind wouldn't pay the extra 1 refresh to get to thaumaturgy with a specialty, instead of ritual. But if you're only in it for the items, it should be 2 extra refresh, and you might rather have an extra 4 focus item slots instead.
Imagine an Alchemist: 7 refresh spent on items gets you 14 focus item slots. Superb Lore.
+5 Craft Power. +5 Crafting Frequency.
8 enchanted items or potions, all at 10 shifts or power, and 6 uses per session free. Arguably, the enchanted items get additional uses for mental stress. It depends on whether such a character meets your definition of "practitioner". Your "gun" and your "armor" are both enchanted items. The rest should probably be potions.
As we know from my Artificer thread, such a character isn't as powerful or as versatile as a wizard, but he's also only spent 5 skill points. Spend the rest on becoming a face, knowing that your magic can cover for you in most combat and utility situations.
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Um, just pointing this out, as it might be relevant, but:
YS279: "The strength of an enchanted item may be reduced by one to make it useable by someone other than the caster, such as a magically armored coat that anyone can wear."
Does that solve the problem? The crafter still has to use the slot, but as expenditures go, a single enchanted item slot isn't that bad. I know it was about a non-spellcaster gaining a slot, but that seems like trying to warp the rules, and this seems to work well with them. As others have pointed out, you don't really need a wizard to charge up an item if you decide to write it that way. Or, maybe you do, but that's up to the group.
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YS279: "The strength of an enchanted item may be reduced by one to make it useable by someone other than the caster, such as a magically armored coat that anyone can wear."
As I understand it it does still take up one of the caster's item slots, not taking this option just limits the use of the item to the caster alone. (Well, a staff of fire blasts could be used by someone else as a club, but not to hurl flaming death).
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It does, and I mentioned that, albeit indirectly.
Point though, if that character is off screen as an NPC, if the GM doesn't care and you want to name them as an Aspect, it might work out right in the end. Maybe a Wizard owes you a favor?
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On a related note: I was talking to my GM the other day, and I expressed my displeasure that Ritualist (Crafter) didn't give you anything that you don't get from Ritualist (Anything Else), and thus shouldn't be worth the same -2 Refresh.
Crafting gives you versatility. If you choose a different function or theme, then your items must fit within that function or theme. Crafting, however, covers the whole range of Thaumaturgy and Evocation (for purposes of crafted items and potions only). So, for example, a Biomancer could only have items relating to Biomancy.
That's the difference and the reason for the two point cost.
It does, and I mentioned that, albeit indirectly.
Point though, if that character is off screen as an NPC, if the GM doesn't care and you want to name them as an Aspect, it might work out right in the end. Maybe a Wizard owes you a favor?
/me puts on his power-gamer hat.
Ok, so here's my new uber-Artificer "I Win!" button character concept:
Make a Pure Human. Get lots of kewl Stunts, but leave yourself a decent chunk of Refresh so that you have plenty of Fate. Also get an Aspect called "My Artificer Minions". This aspect represents your small cabal of loyal minions, who you can call on to supply you with potions or enchanted items. All are assumed to be Artificers of the sort Ryan described above. By invoking your aspect (spend a Fate), one of your loyal and helpful artificers comes to your aid, supplying you with eight 10-shift potion-like items with 6 uses. If you run out (or want to be extra-prepared) spend another Fate to summon another minion.
While not fleshed out, this concept is clearly already far superior to any of the pansy two-bit Artificer concepts proposed up to now. I win. :p
(Note that were I to run a game, I would begin by suggesting the player of the above character come up with a more reasonable character. If he refused, I would smile gently, then hand the player a Fate point and start off the first adventure with a compel: Oh noes, the cabal is missing!)
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Crafting gives you versatility. If you choose a different function or theme, then your items must fit within that function or theme. Crafting, however, covers the whole range of Thaumaturgy and Evocation (for purposes of crafted items and potions only). So, for example, a Biomancer could only have items relating to Biomancy.
That's the difference and the reason for the two point cost.
Meh. I'm not sure I buy this. I think the answer is encouraging players to take Ritualist (Rune Magic), like Gard does. Gard's Rune magic seems to encompass a magic battle-axe, potions, and wards.
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I've actually been wondering about this, too. In a game I'm getting ready to run, since we're all hopping over to this system from DnD, we like the idea of loot. Now, money is all well and good but with a resources skill it's primarily cosmetic or the equivalent of a temporary aspect.
What my players want, however, are items. Some outright want Items of Power but others, such as otherwise pure mortals, wouldn't mind a simple enchanted item. Nothing too awesome or unreasonable but nice. Maybe a weak magic armor or a sword that deals 1 extra stress as cold damage (for purposes of satisfying catches).
Now these aren't anywhere near the power of Items of Power and I could easily see saying "Sure, you can take up this enchanted item, but it'll cost you 1 refresh" And justify it with something like "The crafter infused these items with his/her magic and as such, his/her will. That means that, while the item isn't sentient, it does try to influence you just ever so slightly and you must spend appropriate refresh to ignore the item creator's shadow of will" or something silly like that.
The problem that this runs into is I can say, "Sure, take that sword" as described above to deal the cold damage but then that costs 1 refresh. That means it costs them their Pure Mortal 2 refresh and 1 refresh so it's effectively 3 refresh, just to be able to sate a catch occasionally. Now that doesn't seem all too fair, does it?
Talking this over with my coworkers who play this game (I work in a bookstore. We're all geeks) some say I should treat it as a stunt and cost a refresh and leave it at that. Others say an Item of Power is an Item of Power, even if weak and that's the price they pay. Still others say to just forget it and give it to them because the wizard who made it would have had to put in the extra shift to make it usable by others anyway, so it shouldn't have an extra cost associated. I, however, am just confused as to what to do. What do you all think?
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I've actually been wondering about this, too. In a game I'm getting ready to run, since we're all hopping over to this system from DnD, we like the idea of loot. Now, money is all well and good but with a resources skill it's primarily cosmetic or the equivalent of a temporary aspect.
What my players want, however, are items. Some outright want Items of Power but others, such as otherwise pure mortals, wouldn't mind a simple enchanted item. Nothing too awesome or unreasonable but nice. Maybe a weak magic armor or a sword that deals 1 extra stress as cold damage (for purposes of satisfying catches).
Now these aren't anywhere near the power of Items of Power and I could easily see saying "Sure, you can take up this enchanted item, but it'll cost you 1 refresh" And justify it with something like "The crafter infused these items with his/her magic and as such, his/her will. That means that, while the item isn't sentient, it does try to influence you just ever so slightly and you must spend appropriate refresh to ignore the item creator's shadow of will" or something silly like that.
The problem that this runs into is I can say, "Sure, take that sword" as described above to deal the cold damage but then that costs 1 refresh. That means it costs them their Pure Mortal 2 refresh and 1 refresh so it's effectively 3 refresh, just to be able to sate a catch occasionally. Now that doesn't seem all too fair, does it?
Talking this over with my coworkers who play this game (I work in a bookstore. We're all geeks) some say I should treat it as a stunt and cost a refresh and leave it at that. Others say an Item of Power is an Item of Power, even if weak and that's the price they pay. Still others say to just forget it and give it to them because the wizard who made it would have had to put in the extra shift to make it usable by others anyway, so it shouldn't have an extra cost associated. I, however, am just confused as to what to do. What do you all think?
I handle it three ways:
1. Items of Power, with at least 2 refresh worth of powers. These also eliminate your pure mortal bonus. At least one of your aspects should reference the item. These items give serious power that changes the character. Also, making them is very hard, if not impossible now, and every one has it's own backstory and purpose.
2. Artifice. -1 Refresh gives you 2 item slots, each one can be exchanged for 2 enchanted item or potion slots. Your Lore and crafting power bonuses set item strength. Pure mortals can't take these, but they are otherwise non-restricted.
3. Aspect items. Harry's Pentacle necklace is a good example. These items are aspects, and you can make them do story-appropriate magic things by invoking for effect. Harry often invokes his necklace to make "True Faith" Conviction attacks against vampires. These are appropriate for any character, including pure mortals.
Let's examine 3 characters, each one wields a "Frost Sword".
Character 1: Fey Swordsman
Item of Power, referred to by an aspect: Sword of Winter's Embrace
Item of Power, Broadsword (Weapon:3, two hands to wield) Obvious +2
-1 Sword does an extra 2 "Frost" damage, like Claws
-2 Inhuman Strength
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-1 Refresh
Character 2: Swordmage
-3 Refresh: Thaumaturgy (Crafting Power Specialty).
-1 Refresh: Refinement
Lore 5
4 Focus Item Slots, +2 Item Power and + 1 Frequency foci, 2 Enchanted item slots.
Sword: Weapon:3 most of the time, Weapon:8 twice per session. 1 mental stress for each additional use of W:8. W:8 effect counts as "Cold" damage.
Ring of Protection: 8 Block or Armor:4, twice per session. 1 mental stress per additional use.
Character 3:
Normal human with "Enchanted Frost Sword" Aspect.
Aspect can be invoked to do effects like count the sword as "cold damage" for the scene, dip it in water to chill or freeze it, add +2 or reroll an attack or defense Weapons roll, etc.
Aspect can be compelled to have people recognize the sword as enchanted, or to have the "Frost" component do something to the users detriment, like get stuck in water or heal a winter fey.
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After starting my other thread, I think I'd be ok with a player having a "Magical Arsenal" Aspect that can be tagged for minor magic item effects. Imagine Batman's utility belt.
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Consider: Finding out an item is magical is either a declaration or an assessment, and gets you a free tag to "use the magic". After that, "using the magic" costs fate points as you invoke the item's aspect.
A kind GM might even allow potion-style magic item debt.
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From the box on page 109 (emphasis mine):
Powered Props
A player may want to take a prop aspect for an item that has supernatural power attached to it, to signify a “trademark” item (think King Arthur and Excalibur). This is a great idea, but keep in mind that your character may need to invest other resources (such as stunts, or time and effort) to possess props of particular power. In other words, it’s not enough to give yourself an aspect saying you have a Sword of the Cross—you’ll also have to buy the sword as a facet of your supernatural abilities. Or to look at it a different way, the prop aspect is more about the relationship you have with the prop than it is about the prop itself and what it does.
To my mind the human with a frost sword just as an aspect wouldn't work. Harry's pentacle works because of what it means personally to him, it holds no power to drive off vampires that another pentacle wouldn't - in the same way that a christian priest could pick up any crucifix and drive away a black court vampire, it wouldn't have to be his own personal family heir loom crucifix.
It does give him other effects that are part and parcel of what it is, but they're not supernatural as such - for example it's silver, it's inherited, so it fulfils the Loup Garou catch, it's not a magical item because it does so. Harry uses it as a focus for his light spell, but doesn't have to. Again, it's not actually the item that's responsible for the light.
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I disagree with the balance the rpg attempts, having found wizards to be ridiculously stronger than any other character type -- not that the wizards are too strong, mind, but that mortals (and some monsters) have insufficient capabilities. As such, we have no problem giving non-paranormals plenty of extra refresh (with which to buy stunts), making the pure mortal bonus rather moot. While a wizard, technically, is supposed to "reload" a magic item, thaumaturgy as written can make long-lasting magical effects that serve a similar purpose. In fact, most of our revisions -- can't even call them tweaks now -- have been to write thaumaturgy into something consistent and less-able to flood the earth with (near-)permanent effects; as it stands, it's all over the place more than even first ed. Mage tA was, which is quite a feat.
In any event, a mortal having a magical doodad, may cost a refresh, but if it doesn't seem overly-strong, just ask the GM to change your starting refresh. It's easier for all concerned to change the rules than to try to bend the books into the shape one prefers.