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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Morfedel on November 02, 2010, 03:52:46 PM
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So, for the most part, I grok aspects, but there are a few cases where I do not. For example, the book refers to fire evocations setting the ON FIRE aspect on someone, air or water used to suffocate someone, using a cyclone spell to put the KNOCKED PRONE aspect on someone, dropping a bookcase on someone to put the PINNED aspect.on them, etc etc.
But for all but the last two examples, that would seem to indicate ongoing damage... but from what I understand of aspects, they don't do ongoing damage. So, how to oh deal with things like that, or poison, or....
And.for that matter, what about the aspects like KNOCKED PRONE or PINNED? Are.those necessary to compel to get their effects? I'd assume the first one would be a free tag, but....
And i suppose some of those could be done as blocks instead, but that still.doesn't explain red, water drowning, air suffocation, those shadow snakes.that that denarian sicced on Rodriguez, etc.
Or have I missed something completely?
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As I understand it:
An aspect placed on your character by a maneuver can either be used by your opposition to aid their actions against you (invoking for a +2 on their roll), or may be compelled. If it's compelled then your options are limited based on the aspect in question. For KNOCKED PRONE that means taking an action to get back up before you can do anything that would require you to be in any other position than lying on the floor. For PINNED it would mean that you couldn't reasonably attempt any action that being pinned would prevent you from doing - theoretically what you should be doing at this point is trying to use Might to shift the thing that's pinning you down. If your opponent doesn't invoke the PINNED aspect when attacking you, they simply aren't using the fact that you are pinned to best effect. Arguably if someone used a bookcase to put the aspect of pinned on you it should be possible to maneuver to add another aspect or change that one to 'behind cover' in a subsequent action.
Things like drowning and being on fire are possibly best handled like grapples rather than maneuvers or blocks.
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Form what I got from your post you seem to have a firm grasp about the basics. I'll try to ask your questions in chronological order.
Your first question seems to be about damage over time affects. You are right. They aren't covert at length in the rules and can't be found under a separate chapter. However guidance can be found. For how poisons work take a look at the Venomous paragraph under the Claws skill (YW 163). That might help you.
Now to the tricky part: Aspects as such simply don't do damage. Period. However, an aspect can be used to create a grapple. This holds true to forms of magic too. An example for a magic damaging grapple is the ORBIUS spell (YW 294). The spell has to be explicitly designed to do damage.
If it simply a maneuver through evocation or thaumaturgy, then it is a simple aspect that follows all aspect rules. An ON FIRE aspect will surely be compelled by the GM during subsequent exchanges, but unless nobody invokes, compels or tags it it remains just flavor.
Aspects such as KNOCKED PRONE or PINNED are aspects like any other too. So yes, they have to be invoked, compelled or tagged by either the GM, a PC or an NPC. A PINNED person will have to remove the obstacle in most chases. A KNOCKED PRONE person is likely to try to get up during the next exchange to remove the aspect and his disadvantage. That said, in most chases you probably won't get a compel of that aspect in any chase because the victim will try and remove it right away.
Always keep in mind that this is a system that largely depends on narration and what makes sense at a given moment. Most things you ask about are best handled through compels by the GM, witch shouldn't only compel the PC but the NPC too.
EDIT: post is regarding OP not babel2uk ...
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Ok, so, some of that works for me. So to do damage over time, do it as a grapple. I suppose this works, though it seems rather dissatisfying when it comes to something like ON FIRE.
Particularly with the venomous extra for claws. Sure, its a.2 refresh add-on, but still, having Thu@ one thing doing Fist attacks auto every Exchange, while magic can at most do one stress per? Seems rather weak.
As for KNOCKED PRONE and such, I guess It's assumed that the HM should compel those every round until removed? If so, that means the creatures will be accumulating fate points?
It does feed into another question I have though. I was noticing the examples of having a building or scene ON DOES, or CRUMBLING BUILDING, etc etc. How the heck do those factor into a battle? How does someone invoke such aspects for the battle?
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Ok, so, some of that works for me. So to do damage over time, do it as a grapple. I suppose this works, though it seems rather dissatisfying when it comes to something like ON FIRE.
After some thought I remembered that there actually are rules for this. Check out YW 325. There is a paragraph for environmental hazards that covers this area. Generally you treat the fire as an environmental hazard and assign a value to it. Standing in a bonfire would be at least great. The victim has the chance to defend against the effect. Depending on the effect the victim will defend with Athletics or Endurance. In some situations the weapon value that created the effect might be added, but that is pretty situational.
Particularly with the venomous extra for claws. Sure, its a.2 refresh add-on, but still, having Thu@ one thing doing Fist attacks auto every Exchange, while magic can at most do one stress per? Seems rather weak.
It ain't week. Trust me. I used poison claws on one of the players in the game I run. His PC is a real tank and he seemed pretty scared about the poison effect. Maybe I understood something wrong. Your writing was kinda hard to decipher.
As for KNOCKED PRONE and such, I guess It's assumed that the HM should compel those every round until removed? If so, that means the creatures will be accumulating fate points?
Yes. If the creature gets compelled it gets a FP. However the creature should only get compelled if it is trying to go for a action that would be hindered by the aspect. It also might buy out of the compel, giving the GM a FP describing some awesome shit that lets the creature take it's action unhindered. In most cases creatures don't have all that many FP to begin with so it isn't that big of a deal.
It does feed into another question I have though. I was noticing the examples of having a building or scene ON DOES, or CRUMBLING BUILDING, etc etc. How the heck do those factor into a battle? How does someone invoke such aspects for the battle?
Scene aspects can be invoked/compelled/assessed/tagged like any other aspect. If the aspect CRUMBLING BUILDING leads to a collapsing of the structure, then every PC or NPC that gets into trouble due to CRUMBLING BUILDING gets a FP due to a compel by the GM. But that's all in the book...
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Aspects can do damage indirectly. For example, consider a fight taking place in a burning house. You might land a mighty punch on your foe, knocking them backward into the burning tapestry behind them. In game terms, this is a Fists attack, tagging the "Spreading Fire" aspect to get a +2 on the attack -- and effect adding 2 stress of 'fire damage' to the punch (with no Fate cost, assuming the aspect had yet to be tagged). The next exchange, you could milk the fire for more by shoving him back into the fire (maneuver to place "I'm burning!" on the foe). This is now a new aspect, which could be tagged for no cost by you or your allies (or which might force him to spend an exchange to do a maneuver of his own to put himself out, thus removing the aspect). Alternatively, you could use the "I'm burning!" Aspect as a Fate sink, allowing you to spend a Fate to boost every attack you make (even after the free tag) until he put himself out. Or you could use the Aspect to compel him to stop, drop, and roll, perhaps.
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After some thought I remembered that there actually are rules for this. Check out YW 325. There is a paragraph for environmental hazards that covers this area. Generally you treat the fire as an environmental hazard and assign a value to it. Standing in a bonfire would be at least great. The victim has the chance to defend against the effect. Depending on the effect the victim will defend with Athletics or Endurance. In some situations the weapon value that created the effect might be added, but that is pretty situational.
I noticed that too, but I was unsure how to apply it. If I used an evocation to set the warehouse we are fighting on fire, how would that be adjudicated in terms of environmental threat?
It ain't week. Trust me. I used poison claws on one of the players in the game I run. His PC is a real tank and he seemed pretty scared about the poison effect. Maybe I understood something wrong. Your writing was kinda hard to decipher.
I meant magic doing 1 stress per turn when poison does a fist attack level each turn. The MAGIC I was saying was pretty weak in comparison in this one case.
Yes. If the creature gets compelled it gets a FP. However the creature should only get compelled if it is trying to go for a action that would be hindered by the aspect. It also might buy out of the compel, giving the GM a FP describing some awesome shit that lets the creature take it's action unhindered. In most cases creatures don't have all that many FP to begin with so it isn't that big of a deal.
Scene aspects can be invoked/compelled/assessed/tagged like any other aspect. If the aspect CRUMBLING BUILDING leads to a collapsing of the structure, then every PC or NPC that gets into trouble due to CRUMBLING BUILDING gets a FP due to a compel by the GM. But that's all in the book...
Yes, I know it's in the book, but some of these items I'm asking about didn't feel adequately explained. To me, a burning building or a crumbling building should be having a chance to do damage, and the fact that it doesn't is rather not attaching itself to my brain stem too well.
I have to say... I find some of this... well, woefully inadequate, to be honest. This is my first experience with Fate, and I have to say, while I think the Aspect system is quite fantastic overall, it doesn't seem to handle some of these situations like what I'm referring to above in any regards.
Either that, or they just didn't explain it well enough for me. ;)
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Could you explain a little better what you want to happen? Ignore the game for a few: just give us an example and I'm sure we can explain it better. Describe ir like a scene in a story, if you can.
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what do you mean by "magic can only do 1 stress per turn?"
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I have to say... I find some of this... well, woefully inadequate, to be honest. This is my first experience with Fate, and I have to say, while I think the Aspect system is quite fantastic overall, it doesn't seem to handle some of these situations like what I'm referring to above in any regards.
Either that, or they just didn't explain it well enough for me. ;)
Look, FATE handles these situations just fine. We've all lit folks on fire or knocked them prone, without much problem. If you want to cause physical stress, hit the dude with a fire attack. If you do enough stress you'll force them to take a consequence, say "Nasty Burns." That's a taggable aspect, and freely taggable the first time.
If you want to create an aspect instead, say "On Fire," do a maneuver. Now you've got an aspect, freely taggable the first time, but generally no stress. Eventually, the dude is going to do something to put the fire out and the aspect will go away, or I'm gonna rule that the fire goes out by itself. At that point, if the aspect is still a valid aspect, it's still taggable, it's just going to change to something else that makes sense, like "Nasty Burns." Again, that's a taggable aspect, and freely taggable the first time.
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The absolutely key thing to remember is that until the fire (or whatever) actually inflicts a consequence it's not actually damaging the person at all because stress indicates near misses. Maybe they're beating at the fire in an attempt to put it out, maybe their clothing is only smouldering and not hot enough to cause more than a bit of discomfort...
I'd forgotten about the environmental damage rules, but yes those would seem to apply. Since the rating of the damage source can be used either as an attack or a maneuver then using the grapple rules for an on fire character is an option, or just straight out attacking them every round and invoking the ON FIRE aspect to boost the strength of the attack. Yes that means the character is going to get a lot of fate points, but then again being involuntarily on fire is kind of a bad thing (unless of course you have a holocaust cloak).
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And, if so, then why didn't you list that among our assets?!
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;D
It only helps if you have a wheelbarrow as well...
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you also need andre, and i am fresh out of them.
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Could you explain a little better what you want to happen? Ignore the game for a few: just give us an example and I'm sure we can explain it better. Describe ir like a scene in a story, if you can.
I want continuous damage when someone is on fire. Like when someone gets poisoned by the venomous add-on from the Claws power.
Iean, it adds an aspect and does damage until that person takes a.concession or is taken out. Someone on fire should have the same experience.
Maybe not as vicious, but mores than being grappled. Maybe, for example, require 2 or 3 shifts to turn an aspect added to a character to change the aspect into a continuous damage aspect, until removed, equal to the remaining shifts, or something.
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what do you mean by "magic can only do 1 stress per turn?"
Did you read the whole thread?
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Noclue, babel, etc: my problem is this. Venomous claws add an aspect and does continuous damage. Environmental effects the gm has in the story can do damage.
But, if, for example, I want to set a building or person on fire, all it does is add an aspect that if not compelled or invoked or tagged or whatever, does nothing.
Even then, it doesn't do damage; at best, only increasing the damage of some attack external to the aspect itself.
And that, to me, is the problem. It creates an intellectual disconnect, especially when you have venomous and environmental on one side doing it one way, and aspects doing it a completely different way.
Does my complaint make sense now?
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OK, yes that does make sense. having re-read a few passages grapple may not be appropriate. It could be used for smaller fires that wouldn't necessarily be immediately life threatening (arguably being on fire is a block against casual dinner conversation :)). The way I see it working is this:
If the building is on fire then the proximity of the fire to the PC dictates whether the fire just prevents them doing certain things (like following an NPC through a collapsing doorway - a compel), or aids one party or another in their action (throwing a bolt of fire at the enemy by tapping into what's already there - invoke). If the fire is close enough to actually have an effect on a character then the Environmental damage rules kick in - which work almost identically to venom - bearing in mind that if the fire is severe enough then everyone in the scene suffers the same effects.
Unlike Venom the character has the chance to put themselves out by rolling on the floor etc, rather than waiting to just be treated by a doctor, with the strength of the fire being the attack roll. The attacks also may not just stop when a character is taken out if there are still consequence slots available.
Since the environmental damage rules say to treat the environment like an actual opponant you may also allow the fire itself to maneuver to add the aspect of ON FIRE to the character and then tag it to add more damage, but it's more likely to be used by someone attacking you saying that you're so distracted by the fire they get a bonus to their hit. Or you could invoke it to aid in a grappling maneuver - nobody likes to be that close to flamey boy! Or compelled when you're about to roll on the floor to put out a flaming sleeve and you notice that pool of gasoline creeping across the floor towards you...
It's not perfect, but the system isn't supposed to be a crunchy true life simulation.
Edited to make Morfedel happy! :P
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Noclue, babel, etc: my problem is this. Venomous claws add an aspect and does continuous damage. Environmental effects the gm has in the story can do damage.
If Venomous Claws is what's giving you all the confusion then I think that might be your problem, that is an extremely potent and costly power that should be an exception to the rules not the baseline. It has the same cost as picking up Evocation, Thaumaturgy, or a Sword of the Cross! It is a power that should be reserved for some of the true nasties of the Dresdenverse. The effect of Venomous Claws is so nasty that I wouldn't use it to model normal poison in my games, having a snake bite or a envenomed dart hit a character and I would hit them with a consequence of "SNAKE BIT" or "POISONED" and compel the hell out of them rather than use the Venomous Claw special rules.
Whereas anyone with a little accelerant and a box of matches can set something "ON FIRE". Also most things that you maneuver an "ON FIRE" aspect onto are going to spend at least one of their turns trying to put it out, so that takes up their action for the turn allowing you to hit it again for free with a free tag. Being "ON FIRE" in FATE sucks enough without having to add damage on top of it. It is the same thing with being "PINNED" or "KNOCKED PRONE" folks who have those aspects maneuvered onto them are going to have to give up at least a round trying to get rid of them.
I'd play it by the rules they do work. But if it really bothers you so much I have a very simple solution for you, in your game let them take environmental damage if you feel it is necessary. Ta-Dah!
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Noclue, babel, etc: my problem is this. Venomous claws add an aspect and does continuous damage. Environmental effects the gm has in the story can do damage.
But, if, for example, I want to set a building or person on fire, all it does is add an aspect that if not compelled or invoked or tagged or whatever, does nothing.
Even then, it doesn't do damage; at best, only increasing the damage of some attack external to the aspect itself.
And that, to me, is the problem. It creates an intellectual disconnect, especially when you have venomous and environmental on one side doing it one way, and aspects doing it a completely different way.
Does my complaint make sense now?
I understand the complaint. I just want to point out that the damage is basically just leading up to the creation of aspects as consequences. They just take time. A maneuver is creating an aspect now and skipping all the lead up.
Does the game favor ripping through people with poisoned claws rather than having them take stress from being in a burning building? Yup. The GM can make the fire relevant with environmental damage if they think damage from the fire is interesting. Players don't get to do that. Players get to create aspects and make attacks.
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Morgan: your answer re: venomous makes sense, but what about the aspects vs environmental damage? And sure, 3 refresh for a power should be nasty, no doubt, but the rules should be consistent, and as I point out below, they aren't.
Babel: first, I have two words for you. Paragraph breaks. :-)
Second, I suppose so, but it drives me nuts, because essentially they have three different rules for when a continuous damage event occurs:
1. It's from venomous claws. Take continuous damage.
2. It's from the environment. Take continuous damage.
3. It's from a character - get compelled, invoked, tagged, whatever, but regardless dont take continuous damage.
My setting them on fire, or the building for that matter, should be no different than if The environment does it. It's different rules for different situations for basically the same thing.
You don't want to power venomous though... I will probably make some rule that allows someone to sacrifice shifts to add appropriate ongoing damage. Like, 2 shifts, then rest of shifts becomes an ongoing attack until removed... or 2 shifts per 1 shift of ongoing attack or something... and something similar for enviromment, with an additional charge for effecting the zone as normal.
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Well, tell you what, I'll try it as-is for now. It isn't a problem with the fact I think the rules are broken. I just dislike the different rules for essentially.same situation thing.
But, who knows,.after running it for a bit, I may decide it doesn't matter.
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Just as an aside, unless the venom-claw attacker noticeably outclasses the victim, that poison damage isn't going to be all that different than grapple damage. The 'base damage' is equal to the attackers Fists (unmodified) and the victim resists with Endurance. If their skill levels are comparable, than the expected result is 0, with the average over time being maybe 1-2 or so. But even ignoring this, each tick of damage is still going to mark off only a single stress box per exchange. After the first one-stress hit, there is not actually any difference at all between a one-stress hit and a two-stress hit. And after the first two one-stress hits, a three-stress hit is no different than a one-stress hit. In either case, the damage just becomes a clock that measures how long it will be until you get to consequences (or concession), and the chance the victim has of rolling high and taking no stress for a given round makes the venom clock slower.
This is less true for a more powerful attacker (and/or a defender with little endurance), but the main result of that is still just a shortening of that countdown.
In any case, by simply enforcing the environmental rules in situations you feel are important, you can solve your problem (and give the characters piles of Fate, too!)