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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Monkey Bloke on November 02, 2010, 10:05:14 AM
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I recently ran a DFRPG one-shot as a rules and game "feel" test run before we embark on a campaign later, one thing that struck us was using Thaumaturgy in a time-sensitive situation, for example, combat.
The rules say that you can start a ritual up to your Lore without additioal prep, but we could not figure out how long that should take to execute.
The magic chapter talks about it taking "minutes" at best, but with enemies attacking and one player holding them off the Thaumaturgist is setting up a strength 5 ward (his lore is 5).
Basically I let him make a disclipline roll every exchange and it took 2 exchanges to fire up the ward.
This is now a strength 5 ward until sunrise, which seems way better than the equivilant strength 5 block that an Evocator could do while taking stress etc.
This makes me wonder what other evocations a thaumaturgist could replicate quickly which seems out of the spirit of the Evocation/Thaumaturgy split.
Is this correct, or did I misread the rules on magic?
As a side question, when it states enemies can attack the ward to bring it down, does that include weapons scores? When a Hexenwolf attacks the ward, should I be including the Strength and Claws weapon rating in the attack to damage the ward?
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One of my players has a Man of Faith with Ritual, specialty of Warding. I am trying to figure out how to apply his Warding during a conflict. How long to strengthen a Threshold? How long to create a Circle? How to use his ability in an action orientated game? I am worried he will become too background during physical fights.
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Is this correct, or did I misread the rules on magic?
I don't think you've misread, but I do think the book leaves things a bit too ambiguous. I personally don't let Thaumaturgy happen in combat time, and I think that that "at least a minute" even applies to things whose Complexity fall below one's Lore rating.
Your situation where fast Thaumaturgy overpowers Evocation is one result, but there's another consideration. What's the advantage of Sponsored Magic being able to cast Thaumaturgy "with the speed and methods of Evocation" if Thaumaturgy can do that as a default?
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Honestly, someone racing to get a ritual finished while combat goes on around them sounds like an entire encounter to me. Very classic - defend the wizard while he banishes the evil sort of thing.
That said, other than that example, the fact of the matter is you sjust shouldn't be able to perform thaumaturgy during a conflict, especially a physical one. As was just pointed out, sponsored magic is important for a reason.
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It's left very vague in the rules, and when this has been brought up in the past, there has been a variety of opinions. All we know is that:
* Thaumaturgy at its quickest (not counting Evocation-speed Thaumaturgy via Sponsored Magic) takes minutes
* You get to make a control roll each 'exchange'
* 'Exchanges' represent a varying amount of time, depending on the pacing of the scene
My take would be that in a firefight or other fast combat, an exchange probably represents no more than 10-15 seconds or so. Which in turn would mean that a 2 minute 'Thaumaturgy' exchange might translate to 8-12 or so 'combat' exchanges. So as a default, perhaps the caster should make a control roll every 10 exchanges during the fight.
Obviously, the players might be motivated to speed things up. Probably the most sensible way of doing this is to allow the player to use 'extra' shifts on the control rolls to reduce the time that control roll took. The problem here, of course, is that you either need to roll in advance (so you know how much you succeeded by) or the GM needs to make the roll. There are other options, but this looks reasonably clean to me.
As an example, take the strength 5 ward you mentioned. The caster needs it up now, so he decides to control all five shifts at once. Luckily his Lore is 5, which means no preparation is necessary. Since he has a Conviction of (let's say) 3, he takes 2 stress to summon the power. Then he rolls his Discipline of 4, and gets a -1, for a total of 3. Disaster! But no, the caster quickly points out that he is a "Warden of the White Council" and well versed in such magics. Spending a Fate point, this takes him up to 5, enough to succeed. But he needs to speed it up. So he points out that he was "Trained by Warden Luccio" and spends another Fate. Still not satisfied, he spends one more Fate, citing that he is "Driven to protect his friends at all costs". His total roll is now 9, more than he needs by 4. So the base casting time of ten exchanges drops to six ... though his friends need to keep him from being interrupted until the magic snaps into place...
Again, this is just a possible suggestion, not hard rules. Hope it helps!
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Didn't Harry (yeah, we're on a first name basis) perform some basic magic circles, Thaumaturgy, etc, in combat? Albeit it took what appeared the narrative equivalent of several exchanges.
And his apprentice drew that circle around all of binder's critters once, but that was during a "parley"... although, it does seem that circle Harry drew as the pseudo-zombies were rushing them was also a ward.
Hm. Tell me. I haven't.read the rulebook 100% yet. Is the circle drawn with chalk or salt, finished with a drop of blood a Thaumaturgy, or something else? Because that one is so easy anyone can do it :)
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Oh, the things I wish I could have gotten to in more detail if I'd had just one more draft...
So, Becq nailed the essential problem to the wall - an 'exchange' is how long it takes every character in a conflict to do one significant thing. However, the scale of consideration differs depending on what people are up to. And with thaumaturgy, you have the potential for the scales to be vastly mismatched - completing any part of a ritual cannot, by any measure, happen as quickly as a dude snap-pointing a gun at you and pulling the trigger.
It's already enough of a stretch to include stuff like picking a lock vs. a gunfight, but luckily (read: totally on purpose) for us, the system is mainly designed to model narrative considerations of time, rather than actual ones.
Let me say this about the Lore prep rule: it refers to game time, not story time (see YS p. 314). Just because Harry has enough Lore for the tracking spell, it doesn't mean that doesn't have to prep the spell - he still draws the circle, prepares his symbolic link, blah dee blah. His player just does not have to engage the game's mechanics to declare he has done this.
But all that prep still takes time in the fiction, right? So, my first question when thaumaturgy during a fight comes up is, "How far are you into prep when the bad guys show up?" Because if you don't even have a circle set up when lead goes flying at your head, you can't even start calling power in.
But if you showed up and got your shit together before the attack happens? Sure, call a bunch of power, take your stress, and have your spell up in a few seconds!
So, what I might suggest as the primary avenue of resolution is making spell prep during combat an involved Challenge using Lore, to give you the permission to engage the normal power-summoning mechanics, and then you can pace everything round by round and not mess up your buddies and their gunfight. IOW, decide that the Lore = insta-prep rule only applies under non-stressful conditions, and adjust accordingly.
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Didn't Harry (yeah, we're on a first name basis) perform some basic magic circles, Thaumaturgy, etc, in combat? Albeit it took what appeared the narrative equivalent of several exchanges.
And his apprentice drew that circle around all of binder's critters once, but that was during a "parley"... although, it does seem that circle Harry drew as the pseudo-zombies were rushing them was also a ward.
Hm. Tell me. I haven't.read the rulebook 100% yet. Is the circle drawn with chalk or salt, finished with a drop of blood a Thaumaturgy, or something else? Because that one is so easy anyone can do it :)
I don't view simple circles as Thamaturgy, I view them as Lore rolls used as a Block.
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i like that option, i my self was wondering how to model that.
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Bear in mind that Evocation can also use chalk circles and trappings which might normally be associated with Thaumaturgy as part of the spell, so something may appear to be Thaumaturgy because of the trappings when in fact it's Evocation.
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I don't view simple circles as Thamaturgy, I view them as Lore rolls used as a Block.
That's a damned cool idea actually!
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Wouldn't that just be a simple evocation block? Otherwise you're getting all of the effects of an Evocation block at no cost whatsoever.
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Just curious would it make sense for simple circles if you added your lore to evoc roll to increase shifts for duration and/or power. So that way at least taking time to do the circle would provide more benefit than just a basic block. Ofcourse doing this should probably automatically add an aspect of "sloppy", "rushed", "easily smudged", or "temporary" to the circle.
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Bear in mind that Evocation can also use chalk circles and trappings which might normally be associated with Thaumaturgy as part of the spell, so something may appear to be Thaumaturgy because of the trappings when in fact it's Evocation.
But was.it.Thaumaturgy or evocation? Based on how the book described it, and considering Harry never had to suffer generating it, and heck, I think we have seen non-practitioners using it, lore actually seems like the most realistic way to do it... geez, it almost seems brilliant to me.
What were the fame designers' intentions for reflecting this anyway?
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Actually that isn't quite true. First time Harry did it he explained exactly what he was doing. Circle of chalk/salt, a drop of blood, and finally the key part the "WILL". Actually based on Changes, an entire circle could be done completely without any prep and done completely in the mind, however doing it with the items makes it much easier. When it's required to add WILL or the entire idea doing the entire ritual in the mind just screams mental stress.
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Wouldn't that just be a simple evocation block? Otherwise you're getting all of the effects of an Evocation block at no cost whatsoever.
Except that simple circles won't stop all attacks, just ones that are purely magical. An Evocation Block can be used to Block anything.
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Every time Harry uses a circle - as far as I remember - he infuses it with his will (which sounds a lot like stress to me). A far as modelling non practitioners using a circle goes I have no idea what the game designer's intentions were about it. I do recall Butters had to use his blood to power the circle (which would be physical stress rather than mental). Perhaps when a pure mortal creates a circle in that way it just works to compel certain creature's high concepts. I seem to remember another thread discussing mortals drawing circles, but I can't remember of there were any definite conclusions drawn as to how to handle it.
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Every time Harry uses a circle - as far as I remember - he infuses it with his will (which sounds a lot like stress to me).
Maybe, but not necessarily.
A far as modelling non practitioners using a circle goes I have no idea what the game designer's intentions were about it. I do recall Butters had to use his blood to power the circle (which would be physical stress rather than mental).
Just a pricked finger? I don't think so.
Perhaps when a pure mortal creates a circle in that way it just works to compel certain creature's high concepts. I seem to remember another thread discussing mortals drawing circles, but I can't remember of there were any definite conclusions drawn as to how to handle it.
I still think the easiest way to model it would be to just use a Lore roll. I try and avoid complications when I can.
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Personally, I treat circles as a very weak threshold. Functionally, that *is* what they are. And if I had to determine strength, use conviction. It's magic, it's all about belief.
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Maybe, but not necessarily.
Just a pricked finger? I don't think so.
I still think the easiest way to model it would be to just use a Lore roll. I try and avoid complications when I can.
I'm no longer sure where this is going. I only originally pointed out that Evocation sometimes uses Thaumaturgy trappings. So not everything in the books that looks like very fast Thaumaturgy necessarily is Thaumaturgy. I then pointed out that what was being said about a circle was basically an Evocation Block - no need to create new rules to cover it.
Yes the Butters situation is an anomaly that the rules don't really cover. But I stand by the comment that the description of Butters closing a circle should constitute physical stress. Bearing in mind (as I appear to be repeating in several threads today) stress is not in and of itself true damage - for physical stress it's near misses, fatigue and minor cuts and bruises.
I also stand by the comment that - as far as I can recall - every time Harry uses a circle, he infuse it with his will (regardless of whether it's evocation or thaumaturgy. Which makes it Mental Stress if you're using that circle as an evocation block.
And an Evocation Block doesn't just stop everything. It can be used to block a specific thing, but you have to dictate when you cast it what exactly it's protecting against. So my point still stands. If you allow it as a Lore block (which personally I wouldn't) you are giving a non practitioner the effect of an Evocation Block against Magic at no cost. If you're happy with that then fine, I have no problem with it. I'm just explaining why I personally do have a problem with it. I'm quite willing to be argued around if someone raises a point that solves my concerns.
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Actually that isn't quite true. First time Harry did it he explained exactly what he was doing. Circle of chalk/salt, a drop of blood, and finally the key part the "WILL". Actually based on Changes, an entire circle could be done completely without any prep and done completely in the mind, however doing it with the items makes it much easier. When it's required to add WILL or the entire idea doing the entire ritual in the mind just screams mental stress.
All magic requires will, thaumaturgy included. A number of examples of this in the book exists, so yes, it is true.
EDIT: see my next post below before replying :)
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Every time Harry uses a circle - as far as I remember - he infuses it with his will (which sounds a lot like stress to me). A far as modelling non practitioners using a circle goes I have no idea what the game designer's intentions were about it. I do recall Butters had to use his blood to power the circle (which would be physical stress rather than mental). Perhaps when a pure mortal creates a circle in that way it just works to compel certain creature's high concepts. I seem to remember another thread discussing mortals drawing circles, but I can't remember of there were any definite conclusions drawn as to how to handle it.
And again, this has been true of thaumaturgy.
Well... not making potions. But when he has used circles to summon, he has, and THAT is thaumaturgy too. I suppose it could be argued either way, however.
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I'm no longer sure where this is going. I only originally pointed out that Evocation sometimes uses Thaumaturgy trappings. So not everything in the books that looks like very fast Thaumaturgy necessarily is Thaumaturgy. I then pointed out that what was being said about a circle was basically an Evocation Block - no need to create new rules to cover it.
Yes the Butters situation is an anomaly that the rules don't really cover. But I stand by the comment that the description of Butters closing a circle should constitute physical stress. Bearing in mind (as I appear to be repeating in several threads today) stress is not in and of itself true damage - for physical stress it's near misses, fatigue and minor cuts and bruises.
I also stand by the comment that - as far as I can recall - every time Harry uses a circle, he infuse it with his will (regardless of whether it's evocation or thaumaturgy. Which makes it Mental Stress if you're using that circle as an evocation block.
And an Evocation Block doesn't just stop everything. It can be used to block a specific thing, but you have to dictate when you cast it what exactly it's protecting against. So my point still stands. If you allow it as a Lore block (which personally I wouldn't) you are giving a non practitioner the effect of an Evocation Block against Magic at no cost. If you're happy with that then fine, I have no problem with it. I'm just explaining why I personally do have a problem with it. I'm quite willing to be argued around if someone raises a point that solves my concerns.
I disagree. When even a mere mortal can do such a simple act with just a drop of blood, this is clearly not evocation. And the author was quite clear in making it obvious that anyone that knows how to do it can do so, quite easily. Our favorite hellhound gunslinger guardian of the Archive is not a spellcaster (although not human), and he caged Dresden quite easily; Butters did so as well, with zero training in magic whatsoever.
So, now that I think of it, though Lore sounded cool, I think maybe a straight roll of discipline or conviction might actually be more appropriate... perhaps as a stunt though? To represent that you have to know about it, and you have to pay for it to know it?
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Eh, I'd just make it a maneuver with Lore to place a circle-related aspect. Give it a base of 3-4, with an extra 2 for a larger circle. In fact, for characters with low Lore you could make it a challenge over multiple exchanges. Once the circle is in place, the GM simply compels the High Concepts of whatever is needed to replicate the effects of the circle. If something magical with a will tries to get through your circle, make an opposed roll with Conviction, tagging or invoking the circle as appropriate.
Seems pretty straightforward.
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Eh, I'd just make it a maneuver with Lore to place a circle-related aspect. Give it a base of 3-4, with an extra 2 for a larger circle. In fact, for characters with low Lore you could make it a challenge over multiple exchanges. Once the circle is in place, the GM simply compels the High Concepts of whatever is needed to replicate the effects of the circle. If something magical with a will tries to get through your circle, make an opposed roll with Conviction, tagging or invoking the circle as appropriate.
Seems pretty straightforward.
That seems like a good solution, too. what do you do about spell effects, like the Mind Fog in the Walmart?
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Thaumaturgy in combat "should" be allowed, we've seen it in the books and makes sense mechanics wise. As for how long it should take is a bit rougher. I use a set up found else where in the forms as a base.
1:Prep work: Just because you HAVE everything you need to set up the spell doesn't mean you have the spelled laid out in front of you. Look at the loupgarou fight in Fool moon, Harry has enough time to explain the simple concepts of the thaumaturgy after getting all the items while setting them up.This should be an exchange by itself easy. Remember you need a link to the target that, for all likely hood, needs to be found and use, add a second exchange.
2:Making the mental construct: everything's laid out now you have to focus on what you need the spell to do, form a container to pour your energy into. Add a another exchange.
3:Pour the power : use normal rules here
4: Pull the trigger: at the end of this round you let the spell go. From above you've added an extra 4 exchanges into the equation if you have to.
Now, depending on how fast pace the action is (a knife fight in a phone booth at the far end of this) you might say every two or three exchanges of everyone else counts as 1 exchange for the wizards, but, for the most part, even the most rushed gun fights and what not is a game of cat and mouse trying to get the other guy when he fowls up and a one to one ration isn't off the wall.
As for magic circles I usually make them thresholds with their power equal to the characters conviction or discipline, with a few declarations and aspects the creator can make (usually just "magic circle" for wizard types but for mortals they get, "Empowered by my blood" or something {at a single stress}, giving them a +4 boost)
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That seems like a good solution, too. what do you do about spell effects, like the Mind Fog in the Walmart?
That's a compel against whoever set up the spell.
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So, for the magic circle question we have:
1. It's evocation - don't like it, non-spellcasters have used it before.
2. It's fast Thaumaturgy - questionable, he whole "at the speed.of.evocation" issue, plus, see #1 above.
3. Using Lore as a block - this is pretty cool methinks
4. Using Conviction as a block - also cool, and prob a bit better as butter probably has a low lore. Or, maybe he invoked aspects to make up for it it lore?
5. Using Lore to establish an aspects for compels - also cool
6. Using Conviction after purchasing a stunt. My idea, but I like it too :)
The problem with all of these is that the circles seemed pretty much impervious to magic, so much so they seemed nearly plot-device level, though easily disrupted by mundane means, and you are immobile while there.
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On the last bit, definitely. At the very least, you'd apply a number of negative aspects on yourself to set up the circle. And a non-caster, I'd personally say, the best you can do is a 3 shift "block".
And I suspect that the reason it's left out of the book is that the entire mechanics around it are too shaky and probably should be left to storytelling.
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A couple of things;
1) A circle won't stop the more powerful spells. Otherwise, all Dresden had to do back in the pornstar sorceresses case was build a circle to avoid the curse. I'd treat a circle as a Legendary threshold only against supernatural acts, reducing all magical attacks by 8 shifts. It would block up to mid-level evocations but nothing really powerful.
2) A long-standing circle needs some sort of supernatural power source. We have seen this at least twice.
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Belial I think you're a bit off course thinking about the pornstar curse and magic circles. The problem is the curse caused bad things to happen to "the environment" around Dresden, a circle could no more stop the objects falling on him then it could stop a bullet from a mortal. And there is the way to get around wards and circles, light the building on fire, take the oxygen from the room, or anything else that effects the area around someone in fatal ways rather then hammer on the barrier....
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Umm, not really. Evocation can circumvent barriers this way. Thaumaturgy on the other hand needs a direct link to the targets. The circle would cut off that link and while it could not stop an indirect attack from hitting the target, it would certainly stop the spell from finding which target to hit.
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Except, a magic circle/trap is *exactly* what dresden did. Just got screwed up.
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Umm, not really. Evocation can circumvent barriers this way. Thaumaturgy on the other hand needs a direct link to the targets. The circle would cut off that link and while it could not stop an indirect attack from hitting the target, it would certainly stop the spell from finding which target to hit.
makes sense to me the way I see it entropy curses like the one in BR sort of magnetise the target which in turn attracts the random deadly frozen turkey to fall from the sky and kill the victim
but yeah in BR Harry was able to redirect the entropy curse from Inari to the Blamp
hope this makes sense I'm a little sleep deprvied lol