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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ironpoet on October 28, 2010, 05:30:05 PM
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Transforming people violates the Laws of Magic, but transforming objects is considered acceptable. However I couldn't find any guidelines for the complexity of permanently transforming an object.
To give some specifics, what would be the complexity to...
1) Transform a fast food burger into a steak dinner?
2) Transform a knife into a sword?
3) Transform a pen into a knife?
4) Transform a wall with a door into a solid wall (with no door)?
5) Transform a house that burned down to its original condition?
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One option might be to use the complexities for Conjuring items as a baseline, with the assumption that the items revert to a reasonable analogy of their original form after about a scene. By this I mean that the partly digested steak would revert to a partly digested burger, and so on. You could increase the duration by increasing the difficulty. Unlike Conjured items, Transformation cannot simply be dispelled.
I'm not sure I really like this solution, since it seems as though a Transformation ought to be permanent, but it seems reasonably balanced.
A possibly better solution would be to use the "Solve improbable or impossible problems" clause of Thaumaturgy. So basically, you ask yourself "if it was even possible to re-chef a burger into a steak, how would it work?" I'd figure out what skill level you'd need to make the item (which might also be determined by your desired quality, but probably defaults to around 2 for baseline quality), then figure out how long it would take for a craftsman to do the work. Then reduce the ritual time to a reasonable amount by adding complexity (see the time chart).
1) Transform a fast food burger into a steak dinner? It doesn't take much of a cook to prepare a steak, though it's harder without good meat. Perhaps a base complexity of 2-3 with a base time of a half hour. The base complexity (before adding complexity to reduce time) would indicate the quality of the steak.
2) Transform a knife into a sword? Similar to above, with base complexity determining quality of the blade. Base time might be several hours or more, reduced by adding complexity.
3) Transform a pen into a knife? Same as for the sword.
4) Transform a wall with a door into a solid wall (with no door)? Are we talking drywall, as typically used for house interior walls? Probably complexity 2 and an hour or two. A brick wall? Similar complexity (maybe a point higher), but with an afternoon base time. Solid stone? How long would it take to chisel the shape, days perhaps?
5) Transform a house that burned down to its original condition? Probably a base complexity of 2-3, with a base time in the weeks or months.
So as an example, rebuilding the house with 'fair' worksmanship by use of an hour-long ritual would be 2 (skill) + 8 (reduce from "months" to "hour") = 10. Transforming a pen into a 'good' dagger with a ritual of only a few minutes might be 3 (skill) + 4 (reduce "hours" to "minutes") = 7.
Does this look about right?
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Or, you're 'taking out' the original (so, enough shifts to overcome the resistance and consequences) and replacing it with something else (enough shifts to simulate actual making/constructing of the item).
So, you can transform something, and it's permanent; but unless it was really important for some reason, it's just easier to go ahead and buy something.
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One option might be to use the complexities for Conjuring items as a baseline, with the assumption that the items revert to a reasonable analogy of their original form after about a scene. By this I mean that the partly digested steak would revert to a partly digested burger, and so on. You could increase the duration by increasing the difficulty. Unlike Conjured items, Transformation cannot simply be dispelled.
I'm not sure I really like this solution, since it seems as though a Transformation ought to be permanent, but it seems reasonably balanced.
A possibly better solution would be to use the "Solve improbable or impossible problems" clause of Thaumaturgy. So basically, you ask yourself "if it was even possible to re-chef a burger into a steak, how would it work?" I'd figure out what skill level you'd need to make the item (which might also be determined by your desired quality, but probably defaults to around 2 for baseline quality), then figure out how long it would take for a craftsman to do the work. Then reduce the ritual time to a reasonable amount by adding complexity (see the time chart).
1) Transform a fast food burger into a steak dinner? It doesn't take much of a cook to prepare a steak, though it's harder without good meat. Perhaps a base complexity of 2-3 with a base time of a half hour. The base complexity (before adding complexity to reduce time) would indicate the quality of the steak.
2) Transform a knife into a sword? Similar to above, with base complexity determining quality of the blade. Base time might be several hours or more, reduced by adding complexity.
3) Transform a pen into a knife? Same as for the sword.
4) Transform a wall with a door into a solid wall (with no door)? Are we talking drywall, as typically used for house interior walls? Probably complexity 2 and an hour or two. A brick wall? Similar complexity (maybe a point higher), but with an afternoon base time. Solid stone? How long would it take to chisel the shape, days perhaps?
5) Transform a house that burned down to its original condition? Probably a base complexity of 2-3, with a base time in the weeks or months.
So as an example, rebuilding the house with 'fair' worksmanship by use of an hour-long ritual would be 2 (skill) + 8 (reduce from "months" to "hour") = 10. Transforming a pen into a 'good' dagger with a ritual of only a few minutes might be 3 (skill) + 4 (reduce "hours" to "minutes") = 7.
Does this look about right?
This looks about right. I'd add the caveat that in the Dresdenverse, no one has ever gotten rich using magic. Even the senior council relies on traditional finance with centuries of compounded interest. Turning lead into gold is possible, but never costs less than gold on the open market.
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Or, you're 'taking out' the original (so, enough shifts to overcome the resistance and consequences) and replacing it with something else (enough shifts to simulate actual making/constructing of the item).
That sounds reasonable, but I have no idea how to calculate the number of shifts to "take out" an object (as opposed to an NPC).
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This looks about right. I'd add the caveat that in the Dresdenverse, no one has ever gotten rich using magic. Even the senior council relies on traditional finance with centuries of compounded interest. Turning lead into gold is possible, but never costs less than gold on the open market.
True. I'm not sure how you'd word this, though. Possibly you might require that if the final product had more intrinsic value than the original, that the ritual would require 'components' valued at the difference? So you could turn a good quality hamburger into a small, low-quality steak for nothing, and turning a pen into a dagger wouldn't cost much (a chunk of raw steel doesn't cost much) unless you wanted a ruby in the hilt, but rebuilding the house might require tens of thousands of dollars (the equivalent of the cost of materials). Turning a rock into a gold-colored (but fake) coin might cost nothing, but turning it into a ten-pound gold bar might require rare components worth a hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I suspect you could still use this to make money, since it would allow you to become the ultimate house-flipper ("House is a major fixer-upper? No problem, give me an hour and it'll be better than new!"). But maybe that's ok, since to actually make game mechanic use of your wealth, you'd need to buy up your Resources skill.
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A possibly better solution would be to use the "Solve improbable or impossible problems" clause of Thaumaturgy. So basically, you ask yourself "if it was even possible to re-chef a burger into a steak, how would it work?" I'd figure out what skill level you'd need to make the item (which might also be determined by your desired quality, but probably defaults to around 2 for baseline quality), then figure out how long it would take for a craftsman to do the work. Then reduce the ritual time to a reasonable amount by adding complexity (see the time chart).
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Does this look about right?
I like it as a set of guidelines. My only issue is that it seems to focus only on the finished product, and ignores any similarity to the starting object.
Intuitively, I would assume that transforming a big rock into a stone wall is less complex than transforming, say, a tub of pudding into a stone wall. I also wonder if a burned-down house retains any "memory" of its original form, which would therefore make it easier to restore it. On the other hand, maybe those would just be considered Aspects to tag during the Preparation phase of Thaumaturgy?
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Well...for simplicity's sake we can assume objects have the same number of Consequences as characters. (They just don't heal naturally.) So, -2/-4/-6/-8 and then an additional one to finally end them. Objects only have Physical Stress (normally), with modifications for Diminuative (-1 stress box) and Hulking (+1 stress box) size. (You can add additional size and stress boxes for larger objects).
If the object is unimportant, then it can't take Consequences, and any hit above its Stress takes it out; the above is only for thematically important or owned items. (Size adds or subtracts as usual.)
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Well...for simplicity's sake we can assume objects have the same number of Consequences as characters. (They just don't heal naturally.) So, -2/-4/-6/-8 and then an additional one to finally end them. Objects only have Physical Stress (normally), with modifications for Diminuative (-1 stress box) and Hulking (+1 stress box) size. (You can add additional size and stress boxes for larger objects).
If the object is unimportant, then it can't take Consequences, and any hit above its Stress takes it out; the above is only for thematically important or owned items. (Size adds or subtracts as usual.)
I like those guidelines a lot. Thanks!
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I think a good question to ask might be why? This would all be thaumaturgy and I wouldn't think any of it would be quick. If it takes you the entire combat (potentially longer if you need preparation) to transform a pen into a sword then that's not going to be much use. And it would be much faster to stack a bunch of furniture against a door than it would be to make the door disappear.
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I'm not sure that the 'taking out' method works here. At the very least, it doesn't make sense that turning a dagger into a dirk has about the same complexity as turning a ham sandwich into a finely crafted nativity set, both of which would take a casting of roughly the same magnitude as would be required to kill Dresden. Or, alternatively, that all transformations of 'unimportant' things are trivial.
In any case, remember that you start by determining what you want to happen, then figure out what system best represents that. In the case of harmful transformations (turning an opponent into a toad) then your objective is really to take the opponent out, and the fact that he's transformed into a frog only to be stepped on rather than cut in half is just narration, really. That's why such transformation is based on overcoming all of the target's consequences. Here, you are trying to use magic to create something useful, so I see it as an application of using magic to perform a mundane task that just happens to be impossible by mundane means. Thus using the 'simple action' mechanics.
Unless, of course, destruction is your intention, in which case you really are trying to 'take out' the object. For example, if you wanted to get into the castle, and decided to turn a section of the wall into a flowerbed so that you could stroll in, then you really are trying to take out the wall, not do a bit of gardening.
Obviously, the player (possibly with the GMs gentle guidance) needs to be a bit honest about what you're trying to accomplish. :)
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I think a good question to ask might be why? This would all be thaumaturgy and I wouldn't think any of it would be quick. If it takes you the entire combat (potentially longer if you need preparation) to transform a pen into a sword then that's not going to be much use. And it would be much faster to stack a bunch of furniture against a door than it would be to make the door disappear.
That's a valid question.
The scenario that got me thinking about this was "How do you stop a building from collapsing using magic?" In my current character's backstory, he abandoned his friends (who were battling a minotaur) in order to save a building full of people (that had been damaged during the fight).
- Evocation (Earth) could provide a temporary "Hold Up The Walls" Aspect for a few exchanges, possibly just long enough to cast a simple Conjuration ritual.
- Thaumaturgy (Conjuration) could create longer lasting support beams, but they wouldn't last forever. Still, it would give you enough breathing room to repair the damage with a Transformation ritual.
- Thaumaturgy (Transformation) could repair the building, leaving the occupants to believe that it was all just a minor earthquake or something.
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I think a good question to ask might be why? This would all be thaumaturgy and I wouldn't think any of it would be quick. If it takes you the entire combat (potentially longer if you need preparation) to transform a pen into a sword then that's not going to be much use. And it would be much faster to stack a bunch of furniture against a door than it would be to make the door disappear.
To offer a few more ideas.
- Stacking furniture against a door will block the entrance just as effectively, but it won't help you to hide. (I could imagine a situation where a character hid in the attic, then removed the access hatch to the attic.)
- Transforming a safe with a combination lock into a safe with no door is a classy way to prevent mundane thieves from stealing your stuff.
- If you go somewhere where you will be searched for weapons and/or tools, it may be useful to create a weapon/tool after you've been searched.
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Unless, of course, destruction is your intention, in which case you really are trying to 'take out' the object. For example, if you wanted to get into the castle, and decided to turn a section of the wall into a flowerbed so that you could stroll in, then you really are trying to take out the wall, not do a bit of gardening.
Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree. I'm away from the books, but the section on Transformation mentions that most objects don't "want" to be changed. I would say that, from the object's perspective, it doesn't make any difference whether you're transforming it for Gardening or for Infiltration. Either way, you're still "destroying" the original object, right?
On the other hand, I do agree that you need to factor in the difference between starting and ending objects somehow. That would also explain why it's so difficult/expensive to transform Lead into Gold. Transforming Lead into a different shape can be done relatively quickly. Transforming each molecule of Lead into a molecule of Gold would take significantly longer. You could still do it, but it would take months to prepare the spell, (and then another month to power it).
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The more changes you're making, the greater the complexity to the final result. So, turning a large number of lead bullets into a lead Nativity Scene would only need to factor in Craftsmanship (and whatever skill would involve Sculpting/Molding); turning those bullets into a ham sandwich would require Craftsmanship, Survival (for finding a pig), Weapons (for killing said pig), Survival again (making a fire), Craftmanship (again) (for growing the wheat)... suddenly, your Ham Sandwich takes days of time. Or you could, you know, just go to a corner deli and buy one.
This is why turning Lead into Gold isn't cost effective; unless you use those lead bullets to rob someone...:)
Stopping a building from collapsing (if you have the time for Thaumaturgy) would be repairing damage; probably Craftsmanship and Scholarship (for architecture) and enough shifts to repair Stress and Consequences. You're not transforming the building; you're trying to restore it.
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The more changes you're making, the greater the complexity to the final result. So, turning a large number of lead bullets into a lead Nativity Scene would only need to factor in Craftsmanship (and whatever skill would involve Sculpting/Molding); turning those bullets into a ham sandwich would require Craftsmanship, Survival (for finding a pig), Weapons (for killing said pig), Survival again (making a fire), Craftmanship (again) (for growing the wheat)... suddenly, your Ham Sandwich takes days of time. Or you could, you know, just go to a corner deli and buy one.
Just to clarify, the amount of time a Thaumatrugical spell takes to cast is based on (a) the amount of time it takes the wizard to prepare, and (b) the amount of time it takes the wizard to power the spell. So transforming bullets into ham sandwiches via Thaumaturgy doesn't necessarily take days, but the complexity of the spell should be based on how long it would normally take. Is that right?
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I was basing that on the suggestion that you can substitute time for additional shifts to your prep (I think being absent for a scene is a +2?). If you're going to do a high-complexity spell, you can take a huge amount of time building the power necessary. Sometimes, there's no other way to get something done. Other times, you're better off using mundane methods.
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Let me see if I can give a first draft of the guidelines we're talking about:
Transformative Thaumaturgy:
1a) If you want to permanently transform something, the baseline complexity is equal to the number of shifts required to "take it out"
- For PCs and NPCs, this is equal to their physical stress boxes, plus available consequences, plus 1.
- For objects, this is equal to their physical stress boxes. Particularly complex objects might require extra shifts (essentially, "armor" against Transformation). Magical objects might be able to take consequences as well.
1b) If you only want to temporarily transform something, the baseline complexity is equal to the length of time the object will remain transformed. Zero shifts is equal to 1 exchange.
2) In addition to the baseline complexity, add the difficulty required to manually transform the initial object into the desired object, assuming such a thing were possible. This is considered the combination of multiple skill rolls, determined by the GM.
- Changing stone into a specific shape could be a Fair (+2) Craftsmanship task.
- Changing a human into a (same-size) animal could be a Great (+4) Scholarship task, plus a Good (+3) Craftsmanship task.
3) If the initial object requires different material, more mass, or less mass than the desired object, add +6 (maybe?) shifts for every kilogram of difference. This represents the difficulty to create or destroy the desired material.
3b) For temporary transformation, add 3 shifts for every kilogram of difference. This represents the difficulty to conjure or "hide" the desired material.
Some examples:
- Temporarily creating an opening in a wall = 3 complexity: 0 (1 exchange) + 3 (Craftsmanship)
- Permanently repairing a hole in the roof (with lumber available) = 7 complexity: 4 (physical stress + 1) + 3 (Craftsmanship)
- Tranforming a bar of Lead into Gold = 54 complexity: 3 (physical stress +1) + 1 (Craftsmanship) + 50 (converting 10 kg of Lead into 10 kg of Gold)
How does that sound?
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Not sure where you're getting the 50 complexity number, but this looks about right. It certainly prevents wizards from swamping the gold market...
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why 50?
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why 50?
My proposed Rule #3 states that if you're missing a particular type of material, you need to add 5 shifts per Kg (to convert nearby air or some of the existing material into the new type of material). So if you want to convert a 10 kg bar of lead into a 10 kg bar of gold, you have to spend 5 shifts per kilogram.
Now, I'm not sure if that's a *good* rule, but that's where the 50 came from. The idea is that fundamental alchemy (changing the atomic and/or molecular structure of something) is much more difficult than simply rearranging its contents.
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True enough, but is not Dresden doing that every time he calls Fire? or Air? or Earth? 50 seems absurd to me.
That being said, permanent transformation requires enough shifts to use up all consequence slots and *then* to take out the object. Assuming something simple with a minor consequence and a moderate, and 3 stress, that's 9 shifts required to transform it period. More depending on it's defense if it gets any. Now take into account that you may not actually get proper "gold" for the lead to gold example, you'd require at the minimum of 4-5 shifts just to add to complexity, maybe more depending (this is taken from the conjuration section, but should apply here as well). At this point, that's approx 15 shifts you'll need. Lets just say that you add 4-5 more to chalk up to added complexity, and vastly different material. That's approx 20 shifts. Oh, and don't forget, you'd probably actually have to have some real gold for the ritual to even work, so that's some resources you'll be tapping into. At this point, wouldn't you be better off just summoning some gold or stealing it from a bank/jewelry store?
Also, I wouldn't say that craftsmanship is required here, as it really isn't for conjuration either. However, I'd be inclined to say that the complexity is limited by your craftsmanship/scholarship, depending on the object. Meaning that if you don't understand the fundamentals of the desired object, you're not going to be able to transform it properly.
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True enough, but is not Dresden doing that every time he calls Fire? or Air? or Earth? 50 seems absurd to me.
What? No, I don't believe Harry is changing atomic structures when he casts spells. Fire isn't an element, for one. And Earth, Air, and Water are basically everywhere, so they're not being created out of nothing. But I would allow evocation to turn oxygen into helium (although maybe it could collect and filter out the small amounts of helium in the air...) or copper into cold iron.
50 shifts is still a pretty huge amount. It's based on the idea proposed earlier that "you can't use magic to get rich", so I wanted to suggest a game mechanic to explain that. But "add 5 shifts per kg" was an arbitrary choice. Maybe it should be something like "add 2 shifts per kg", and therefore only add 20 shifts, or "add 5 shifts per 10 kg", and therefore only add 5 shifts. Or maybe the proposed rule #3 needs to be scrapped entirely. I'm definitely open to suggestions!
That being said, permanent transformation requires enough shifts to use up all consequence slots and *then* to take out the object. Assuming something simple with a minor consequence and a moderate, and 3 stress, that's 9 shifts required to transform it period. More depending on it's defense if it gets any. Now take into account that you may not actually get proper "gold" for the lead to gold example, you'd require at the minimum of 4-5 shifts just to add to complexity, maybe more depending (this is taken from the conjuration section, but should apply here as well). At this point, that's approx 15 shifts you'll need. Lets just say that you add 4-5 more to chalk up to added complexity, and vastly different material. That's approx 20 shifts. Oh, and don't forget, you'd probably actually have to have some real gold for the ritual to even work, so that's some resources you'll be tapping into. At this point, wouldn't you be better off just summoning some gold or stealing it from a bank/jewelry store?
Also, I wouldn't say that craftsmanship is required here, as it really isn't for conjuration either. However, I'd be inclined to say that the complexity is limited by your craftsmanship/scholarship, depending on the object. Meaning that if you don't understand the fundamentals of the desired object, you're not going to be able to transform it properly.
Well, the guidelines I proposed are based on the idea that normal objects, in general, can't take consequences, since they can't heal themselves. What would be a mild, moderate, or severe consequence for a bar of lead? It was also based on the idea that simple transformations should be possible (i.e. transforming a rock into a stone chair, transforming a knife into a lock pick, etc.) If every transformation spell starts at a baseline of 9 shifts of complexity, plus several more shifts depending on complexity, then transformation is almost never going to be a useful theme in the game.
Don't misunderstand - I think the argument you gave for this specific spell is completely reasonable. The result certainly "feels" about right. But I'm interested in a simple set of guidelines to follow for any Transformation ritual, and I'm not sure I could apply your reasoning to other spells and come up with a satisfying result.
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Guys, reality check. You are talking too many shifts here for some transformations. Compare with Conjuration;
Shifts to make a coin: 1
Shifts to make a coin impossible to make out as fake by any mortal: 10 (for a believability of legendary+2)
Shifts to make enough coins to fill an entire park: 6
Shifts to make coins last several human lifetimes: 13
Total shifts to conjure a John-Wayne-level fortune that nobody can tell is fake without magic: 30
So, our wizard has a Lore of 5, is a conjurer so +1 from his base specialization, and has a +4 bracelet focus. He can make any conjuration of 10 shifts in a minute or so without preparation. Assuming he started at submerged and has 5 conviction, he has 3 fate points and 2 mild mental conseqeunces so he can spend those for another 10 shifts. He makes a Lore declaration and a Conviction declaration for another +4, takes a moderate consequence and spends an afternoon (2 scenes) to gather the remaining materials for another 6 shifts.
So, a basic conjurer - a submerged wizard without any refinement - can create a massive fortune once per minor milestone - let's say that's once per week. And said fortune would be impossible for mortals to find out it's fake, last a millennium and require an equally powerful effect to dispel, even if someone finds it is fake.
Wizards have no problem getting rich via magic - or doing just about anything if they can similarly prepare and is in their specialty. The same amount of shifts could rip someone's heart out of their chests from the other side of the country regardless of how tough they are or what non-magical defenses/bodyguards they have, make a magical barrier that stops entire armies, turn an entire graveyard (10 zones) worth of corpses into the walking dead, flatten the UN building from a couple of blocks away or conjure enough blood to visit the First Plague upon the Mississipi.
The reasons wizards don't do that is that it is wrong. If they want to do it, are strong enough to do it and are allowed to prepare, they can do funny stuff like rites of ascencion or starting world wars.
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Guys, reality check. You are talking too many shifts here for some transformations. Compare with Conjuration;
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Shifts to make enough coins to fill an entire park: 6
Where are you getting this number from? That seems way too low for the amount of stuff you're conjuring. If that were true, couldn't I create an enchanted item that summoned a (highly unbelieveable but still very heavy) football stadium ten feet above my enemies (3 times per session)?
Total shifts to conjure a John-Wayne-level fortune that nobody can tell is fake without magic: 30
Hmm... well, personally, I would rule that your entire fortune is trivial to dispel, can't cross thresholds, and may get shorted out the first time it rains on your money bin. I don't have my books, so I don't know the rules regarding ectoplasm conjurings. But in a previous post on conjurations (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21807.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21807.0.html)) the consensus seemed to be that they couldn't cross thresholds unless you spent extra shifts.
Wizards have no problem getting rich via magic - or doing just about anything if they can similarly prepare and is in their specialty. The same amount of shifts could rip someone's heart out of their chests from the other side of the country regardless of how tough they are or what non-magical defenses/bodyguards they have, make a magical barrier that stops entire armies, turn an entire graveyard (10 zones) worth of corpses into the walking dead, flatten the UN building from a couple of blocks away or conjure enough blood to visit the First Plague upon the Mississipi.
Honestly, I'm not sure why wizards don't use magic to get rich - it was mentioned as part of the Dresden universe, and I'm not far enough into the books to question it! At the very least, I'm sure Harry would be motivated to have some money, even if he wasn't independently wealthy. Storywise, I admit I like the idea of a character powerful enough to level mountains, but still unable to pay their own utility bill. (So it's possible I'm biasing my suggested mechanics in that direction.)
That being said, if I were running the game, I would definitely make most of the spells you suggested significantly more expensive than 30 shifts.
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Where are you getting this number from? That seems way too low for the amount of stuff you're conjuring. If that were true, couldn't I create an enchanted item that summoned a (highly unbelieveable but still very heavy) football stadium ten feet above my enemies (3 times per session)?
quite right. six shifts is a rather arbitrary number here. something the size of a nunfunctioning car would be +7. A horde of frogs with the same volume of or coins should be at least in that region. Enough coins to fill an entire park. well a LOT more shifts i dare say.
Hmm... well, personally, I would rule that your entire fortune is trivial to dispel, can't cross thresholds, and may get shorted out the first time it rains on your money bin. I don't have my books, so I don't know the rules regarding ectoplasm conjurings. But in a previous post on conjurations (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21807.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21807.0.html)) the consensus seemed to be that they couldn't cross thresholds unless you spent extra shifts.
The number 30 for the multiple lifetimes of duration is also simply wrong, at least concerning my book. The base unaltered duration of the conjured fortune would be a scene a.k.a. 15 minutes (and that would be a quite generous calling from the GM). To let the fortune go up to multiple lifetimes it would take 18 steps on the time table. That would be +36 shifts right there. Not counting crossing thresholds and the other stuff ironpoet pointed out.
Honestly, I'm not sure why wizards don't use magic to get rich - it was mentioned as part of the Dresden universe, and I'm not far enough into the books to question it! At the very least, I'm sure Harry would be motivated to have some money, even if he wasn't independently wealthy. Storywise, I admit I like the idea of a character powerful enough to level mountains, but still unable to pay their own utility bill. (So it's possible I'm biasing my suggested mechanics in that direction.)
I'm quite sure Harry explicitly mentions some wizards getting incredibly wealthy using their powers. I thing he does so fairly at the end of Proven Guilty when talking to Molly about her future (can be wrong though). That said, I don't see where this no riches through magic thing is coming from.
That being said, if I were running the game, I would definitely make most of the spells you suggested significantly more expensive than 30 shifts.
I think that too.
Nobody does it because it is just a ridiculous amount of work. The creation is far to brittle for obvious reasons. Hence ... why bother.
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I'm quite sure Harry explicitly mentions some wizards getting incredibly wealthy using their powers. I thing he does so fairly at the end of Proven Guilty when talking to Molly about her future (can be wrong though). That said, I don't see where this no riches through magic thing is coming from.
I'm only going by Ryan_Singer's response early in this thread, and Becq's agreement with him. But, like I said, thematically I like the idea that wealth is hard to come by, even for a wizard.
To be clear, though, I'm not as interested in the rules for getting rich via Transformation (although it is a cool discussion). I'm mainly interested in setting guidelines for "everyday" Transformation. i.e. "What could you use it for during a game?" or "What could you do for six-ten shifts of complexity?"
- Want to sneak some secret documents out of a building, but they'll search your bag when you leave? Transform them into a Pulp Mystery novel.
- Need an antidote to Black Widow venom, but you don't have a lab nearby? Transform some nearby flowers (assuming you know what the antidote is).
- Need to make a good impression? Temporarily transform your "Cheap Clothes" into a "Stlylish Suit".
- Being chased by a werewolf? Transform your silver earrings and your knife into a Silver-coated Dagger.
- Timmy trapped down a well? Transform the smooth walls into a ladder.
I feel like there are lots of good uses for Transformation magic (that isn't Law-breaking) but not enough guidelines for its complexity. So I'm hoping to develop a simple set of rules. If those rules can cover basic transformation and alchemy, awesome. If it also covers transforming living creatures (willing or unwilling), then that's even better!
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A simple, one-part object such as a small coin or a piece of paper is complexity 1, with things going up from there. Typical handheld weapons and things with one or two moving parts can be conjured around a complexity of 3. Larger, more complicated things and minor animate things—such as a frog that hops around and ribbits—are a 5. (These items still look “a little off ” or “unreal.”) Quantity and size add +2 for each identifiable factor. Creating a (nonfunctioning) car would be about a 7, starting at 5 and getting a
+2 due to its size; creating enough faux frogs to overrun a city park could be 11 or more—5 for the basic frog, +2 several times over for quantity.
So, a car-sized object (complexity not included) is +2. Enough objects to fill a city park is +6. I used the exact shifts from the examples.
Sure! You can conjure a sword, using thaumaturgy. But…why? It’ll take you at least a few minutes to conjure the thing, since this is thaumaturgy in action, and unless you toss some extra power into it to outlast the sunrise, it’ll dissolve in less than a day
So, conjurations last till sunrise, not 1 scene. Generally, most thaumaturgies have that duration, unless a shorter duration is mentioned. So, several human lifetimes IS +13 shifts of power.
I would rule that your entire fortune is trivial to dispel, can't cross thresholds, and may get shorted out the first time it rains on your money bin.
There are rules for thresholds and dispelling.
1) To dispel a spell, you need to summon as many shifts of power as were used to cast it. It is as big a ritual to dispel the fortune as it is to make it. Besides, once you put the money in a bank or exchange them for foreign currency or buy something, them being dispelled won't hurt you.
2) Thresholds -and water is a threshold too- don't automatically stop magic; they diminish the effect of the spell by a number of shifts. Even a legendary threshold such as a major holy Cathedral or bathing in an ocean will only dimisish the spell's power by 8 shifts. So, say the spell's duration and believability are reduced by 4 shifts each; the money will still last a month inside the threshold and still be hard enough to recognize as unreal that only experts would manage it.
Besides, a wizard can become very, very wealthy without the need to conjure money;
1) Thaumaturgy divination, to predict the moves of the stock market in the day. That would be solving a problem with the contacts or resources or scholarship skill. Even the most skilled mortals in financial science in the world would get a base of superb +5 plus +2 from a stunt in this. A wizard using divination could easily get a complexity of 10 with a two-minute ritual. Fancy getting the maximum benefit of the stock market every day? 20% rate of interest per day would be about the best possible. In ten days you'd have 6 TIMES the money you started with. In one month you could start with $4.000 and end up with $ 1 million.
2) Thaumaturgy divination, to search for minerals - gold, oil, gems. Similarly to the above use, even the weakest wizard could get better results in minutes than world-class prospectors could get in days or months of searching.
3) How about buying and selling land? A wizard could influence the weather or conjure attacks by vermin with only minor complexity or even do power outages and the like to really drop property values. Then he'd buy the land for a ridiculous price and sell some months later at a much higher price.
4) Invest in a company then destroy the company's competitors. You don't really need black magic or any direct spells; any modern company can be destroyed by simply hexing it. Even better, manipulate the stock market like that.
5) Steal a bank. Hex the bank at night, sneak in under a thaumaturgy veil, put the guards to sleep, melt the vault door and grab the money. Even better, use summoned creatures to steal the money for you. No Laws broken whatsoever and the police will have no evidence at all; no modern security can resist hexing and any trace evidence left by summoned creatures melts away in minutes (and isn't human to begin with.
Or, you can do it faster by opening a Gate from the Nevernever directly into the bank vault.
6) Insurance fraud. Lots of insurance fraud. Fires, power failure, equipment failure, wizards can do it untraceably and seemingly naturally.
7) Arms Dealing. How much would an assassin or a terrorist pay for an invisibility potion? How about a mercenary for an invulnerability potion or a healing potion? Any kind of armed forces for a grenade-like potion that does 8 shifts of hexing in one zone, destroying every kind of technological item from alarms to firearms and mines to armored vehicles? How about lasting thaumaturgy veils for secret facilities and bunkers? And NONE of the above violate the Laws of Magic.
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I like all of those examples except the first. I'm pretty sure that someone would notice that. Money laundering is not easy.
Actually, that's another money making oppurtunity for just about any supernatural. It goes without saying that the financial transactions of the White Council are at least in part invisible to the government. The magical community is hidden from the authorities in a way that criminals can only dream of.
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#1 is a blantant violation of the laws of magic. Do at your own risk.
#2 ... do you have connection to those gems? If not, no-go. Won't work.
#3 sounds like it may have been done repeatedly, if not necessarily by mortal wizards... :)
#4 would work, however it kinda violates the "guideline" of the council to stay out of mortal politics. And you run the risk of more powerful wizards ... doing the same and ruining you.
#5 Summoning a creature to do it for you requires binding and/or bargaining. If your willing to take those sorts of risk, long term isn't for you. :) And using the NeverNever to drop into a bank? I'd be afraid of what lies on the other side at any bank. Arctus Tor, maybe? But by all means, go for it. The veil part on the other hand isn't a bad idea.
#6 Indeed. But like entropamancy, where do you draw the line? And more importantly, how long till you "accidently" kill somebody?
Though, #7 sounds like a fun idea, and a great plot hook.
But then again, there is a point here, magic doesn't really make anything easier.
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#1 is not divination to actually predict the future. More like divination to find insider's information or analyze the situation. (i.e. a thaumaturgy use that replaces the normal skill used in financial investments).
#2 is very easy, actually. Just take a tiny diamond then search for more diamonds. Same type of stone, same chemical composition, same significance. There's your sympathetic link. Even easier for other types of gems because crystals of the same material form in identical shapes and similar sizes. Or you could do a divination that asks info from some earth spirits.
As for where to draw the line... we're trying to get rich here, people. Barring the actual laws of magic, there are no lines. Yes, it is perfectly fine to buy a mars bar and then use a ritual to spoil every other mars bar in the area so you can sue the company. With the way modern products come identical from mass production lines, you have ready-made sympathetic links from making all nearby shoes of a certain model break a heel to breaking an essential part in all Boeing 747 planes. All you need is time and getting your hands in one copy of the item.
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Try these out for size:
Basic rules:
Matter can't be created. (Ectoplasm can make up a deficit.)
Matter likes being generally what it was intended to be, and it's not good at being something different.
Process:
1. Determine the base difficulty to 'craft' the item, assuming it was possible to do so with the materials on hand. Improbable and impossible things are doable with magic.
Ex: Making a steak is not rocket science. Even if you're making it out of a potato or a penny. Using a higher base difficulty improves the quality of the finished product.
2. Determine the length of time it would normally take to craft the item.
Ex: Preparing a steak takes perhaps a half hour or hour or so.
3. Determine the desired casting time.
Ex: I'm hungry. Five minutes sounds good.
4. The complexity is equal to the base difficulty (step 1) plus shifts downward on the time chart from (step 2) to (step 3). See below for possible additional difficulty.
Ex: For a fair-quality steak (base 2) prepared in 5 minutes instead of an hour (3 shifts), the complexity would be 5.
5. Cast away, and you're done!
But then what happens?
1. If you started with material closely related to the desired product, and started with about as much mass as you ended up with, then the change is permanent.
2. Generally, compatibility is flexible. Meat is meat. Metal is metal. Vegetation is vegetation. Etc. However, materials that are precious, rare, or otherwise difficult or expensive to obtain are not considered compatible with other materials.
3. If you started with material closely related enough, but didn't have enough, then the balance would have been filled in with ectoplasm, which will dissolve in the same way as a conjured item (which in essence it is). Note that you must be capable of Conjuration magic to be able to do this sort of Transformation, and you must use your bonus for whichever category you are weaker in.
4. If you started with a incompatable material, then the material will revert to it's original material type over time (same time scale as for dissolving ectoplasm).
5. In either of the above cases, the longevity of the product can be improved by addiing complexity determined by the number of shifts down on the time table.
Note that when the material reverts, it will revert only in material type, not in shape, etc.
Examples:
Turning a chicken into a steak: Both are meat, so the change will be permanent assuming there was enough chicken to begin with.
Turning a suitable pile of building materials (or even the remains of a house that was badly damaged by and earthquake) into a house: Assuming enough materials, permanent.
Turning a potato into a steak: Incompatable materials; left long enough, you will find yourself with a steak-shaped potato.
Turning a steel pen into a dagger: Insufficient material, ectoplasm will dissolve leaving a very porous and fragile blade.
Turning a sword into a dagger: Permanent.
Turning a bar of lead into a bar of gold: Incompatible materials, will revert to lead.
Turning a gold bar into a gold candlestick: Permanent.
How does this look from a balance perspective? I think the complexities should end up being reasonable. Also note that using Transformation to scam people is possible ("Hey, want to buy this 100% Pure golden sandwhich?"), but the victim might well seek justice once he learns he's been duped.
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1) Don't force people to be also good in conjuration if they want to make some transformations. Each "school" of thaumaturgy is assumed to include everything related to its use. For example, a summoner uses its summoning skill to build wards against demons and summoned creatures, not his warding, and uses its summoning skill to conjure bodies for spirit entities and demons to inhabit, not his conjuration. A diabolist uses diabolism for demonic curses, demon summoning, demonic bindings and the like, not disuption, summoning and warding respectively.
2) Remember that small amounts of almost any substance exist in the common soil and seawater. A transmuter that attempts to transform a house-sized cube of soil into one pound of uranium is going to succeed simply because that much uranium already exists into said soil. They are simply very hard to extract using common means - but magic could definitely do it.
3) Gold was first synthesized from mercury by neutron bombardment in 1941. Gold costs as much as $35000 per Kg while mercury is much cheaper. In addition, Tungsten has a cost of $30 per Kg. Osmium has a cost of $12217 per Kg. Tungsten can and has been turned into Rhenium which then can and has been turned into Osmium. A wizard could circumvent the required nuclear reactor by using a powerful transmutation spell and then buy Tungsten and Mercury and sell Osmium and Gold.
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3) Gold was first synthesized from mercury by neutron bombardment in 1941. Gold costs as much as $35000 per Kg while mercury is much cheaper. In addition, Tungsten has a cost of $30 per Kg. Osmium has a cost of $12217 per Kg. Tungsten can and has been turned into Rhenium which then can and has been turned into Osmium. A wizard could circumvent the required nuclear reactor by using a powerful transmutation spell and then buy Tungsten and Mercury and sell Osmium and Gold.
But for the gold you would need 6 times as much mercury, the result would be radioactive since while you can do away with the reactor arguably the transmutation process would have the same results. And the hat making industry discovered the down side of working with large amounts of mercury. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there are some big down sides that may explain why it's not common practice.
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Yeah, but it also explains why the alchemists of old were crazy about gathering mercury, does it not? Besides, with enough shifts you could replicate the effect of a particle accelerator, not a nuclear reactor, and thus make broaded atomic-level transmutation which would result in non-radioactive gold.
Money aside, there's one form of thaumaturgy (a very common one actually) you have not considered in your rules; shapeshifting. Turning someone into a newt against their will is forbidden. Making a potion or spell or enchanted belt to turn yourself into other forms though? How about cursing someone into becoming a Loup Garou?
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Well, the shapeshifting would depend on if it's permanent or not. If it is, a baseline of 26 shifts is needed. Permanent transformation must effect all consequences (2 for mild, 4 for moderate, 6 for severe, and 8 for extreme), and then the stress track (4 more on the safe side) and then assume the max roll of 4. That's assuming that other "powers" aren't active and that aspects are being invoked, or extra stunts for more consequences. For a newt, a base 26 is just fine, not much more is needed. But for something like cursing somebody into a Loup Garou, I'd say that at a minimum, that you'd need to add the refresh cost to the shifts required. That's 21 refresh, so 21 more shifts. And story-wise, the Curse would keep the bloodline alive and prevent anything from killing it off. I'd be inclined to say that it's like the "weapons grade entropy curse" but in reverse. Things "align" to keep it alive. And require that the Curse victim have a high concept related to the curse so it could be compelled in such a way. This is a 41 shift curse, and definitely not a small thing.
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I'm going to split the Making Money With Magic conversation into its own thread, because there's a ton of good story ideas there.
New Thread: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22177.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22177.0.html)
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i would say that you would have to provide the extra umph for extra powers while shapeshifted, aka you would have to provide the powers you want them to have that makes them an unstopable killing machine
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Try these out for size:
...
How does this look from a balance perspective? I think the complexities should end up being reasonable. Also note that using Transformation to scam people is possible ("Hey, want to buy this 100% Pure golden sandwhich?"), but the victim might well seek justice once he learns he's been duped.
Hmmm... my problem with these guidelines is that (a) they change the rules for the amount of time needed to cast a spell, and (b) they set up some weird feedback problems when determining complexity. Choosing the first example: "Transform a fast food burger into a steak dinner"
1) It's possible to create a steak dinner from the materials provided. Let's say I want a Good (+3) steak.
2) It normally takes about a half-hour to cook a Good steak.
3) I want to make it in one minute, so +3 shifts.
- The complexity of the spell is +6, and I can cast it in one minute (plus prep time and casting time).
- Unfortunately, my Lore is only +4, so I can't cast this spell without preparation. Unless I want to spend Fate points on my dinner, I'll have to spend extra time to make up the difference, making this one minute spell take at least a scene or more.
- Okay, in that cast I'll just make it in "a few minutes", which only adds +2 shift instead of +3. The total complexity is now +5, which is still too high.
- So I'll settle for a Fair (+2) steak to make the total complexity +4, which I can cast without preparation in a few minutes.
- Of course, the prep work and gathering the power to cast the spell will already add on a few more minutes, so I may as well change the casting time to "fifteen minutes" (which only adds +1) and make the quality of the steak Good (+3) again.
This is an extreme example, I admit, but I think it demonstrates how these guidelines aren't as streamlined as I'd like. I think the dramatic tension should be "Can you prepare and cast this spell in time?" as opposed to "Can you figure out the best compromise between quality and casting time?"
Did you have any specific problems with the guidelines I had suggested before? Are there examples where those guidelines come up with really high and/or unrealistic complexities?
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The rulebook has a lot of situations in which it says "Sure, you could do this by magic ... but doing it the mundane way would be easier." Making the steak is a good example of this. Most of the time, it would be easier to head down to Outback and drop a few bucks instead of performing a ritual on a chicken leg to get the same effect. And yes, reducing the time significantly is only much help for (a) jobs that would normally take a loooong time (like building the house), or (b) jobs that are simple enough that require no preparation. Note also that spending scenes is only one option for preparation, and is also deliberately the least efficient. Spending Fate to power applicable aspects (like your "Kitchen Wizard!" HC or your "Gourmet Chef" aspect takes no time (though that brings us back to the question of why you're spending Fate to cast the Steak Dinner spell instead of just heading to Sizzler).
Then again, if you're lost in the desert and manage to catch a lizard ... well, this might be a good option.
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Then again, if you're lost in the desert and manage to catch a lizard ... well, this might be a good option.
Might?! Might?!?! :P
I think the original purpose of the post was to get an idea of the complexity of how to do some of this stuff as the book leaves it... I'd say open, but that's an understatement! :)
But yeah, turning food into other food is probably a foolish waste of time and effort for a wizard.
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I think the original purpose of the post was to get an idea of the complexity of how to do some of this stuff as the book leaves it... I'd say open, but that's an understatement! :)
Exactly!
But yeah, turning food into other food is probably a foolish waste of time and effort for a wizard.
The inspiration for the "burgers into steak" idea was a Wizard with Mediocre (+0) Resources who nevertheless had high standards for living. So transforming burgers into steak would be purely (excuse the pun) flavor for the character, with no mechanical benefits. But it feels like something a wizard would do.
Similarly, yes, maybe it's easier and possibly quicker to haul my laundry over to the laundromat. But, darn it, after spending fifty years of my life exploring and documenting the limits of transmogrification, I'm going to use my talents, save my quarters, and transform my dirty laundry into clean laundry!
Realistically, you'd never bother to roll for either of those examples, but it would be nice if they were at least possible for a High Lore wizard to pull off. But, like you said, I'm more interested in the practical applications of Transformation.
- Want to sneak some secret documents out of a building, but they'll search your bag when you leave? Transform them into a Pulp Mystery novel.
- Need an antidote to Black Widow venom, but you don't have a lab nearby? Transform some nearby flowers (assuming you know what the antidote is).
- Need to make a good impression? Temporarily transform your "Cheap Clothes" into a "Stlylish Suit".
- Being chased by a werewolf? Transform your silver earrings and your knife into a Silver-coated Dagger.
- Timmy trapped down a well? Transform the smooth walls into a ladder.
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Similarly, yes, maybe it's easier and possibly quicker to haul my laundry over to the laundromat. But, darn it, after spending fifty years of my life exploring and documenting the limits of transmogrification, I'm going to use my talents, save my quarters, and transform my dirty laundry into clean laundry!
Bah, no self-respecting practitioner would use a tranformation in this situation. Instead, this calls for animating your cleaning supplies to do the work for you... While you're at it, animate the mop to do some floor cleaning, and...