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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: MyNinjaH8sU on October 27, 2010, 03:39:23 PM
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I was reading in prep for playing my first Wizard, and I very much like the idea of someone who doesn't necessarily have a ridiculous amount of power at their disposal, but has an absolutely absurd amount of control over it.
What I am wondering, and can't seem to find anything in the book, is if there is a benefit to rolling extra high on a Discipline Roll to control your power. If I understand Evocation correctly, having a crazy high discipline means you can channel more power safely, but it doesn't do so much when channeling that much power is going to deal a boatload of stress to you anyway...
Am I missing something?
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Off the top of my head:
Getting more on your control roll means having extra shifts that you can apply to your spell effect to boost it in certain ways.
In the case of an attack you can use those extra shifts to attack separate targets (by splitting your roll between them) or to make it affect everyone within a particular radius (2 shifts per zone of effect). So if you've rolled 8 on that Weapon 2 effect you can hit everyone in the same zone with a weapon 2 effect that they have to beat a difficulty of 6 to avoid. And remember that if they get less than 8 the difference is added to the damage as per a normal attack.
For Manoeuvres you can make the aspect you're creating last longer by spending those extra shifts (1 shift per extra exchange).
For Blocks you've got the choice of adding to the strength of the block, covering more than one person (you can cover all allies in the same zone for the cost of 2 of those extra shifts), or extend the duration of the block by 1 exchange per shift.
So yes, low power high control can be beneficial.
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Alright, see that makes sense.
The way I was reading it was that the total shifts of power to the effect was entirely based on your Conviction, and rolling high was only important if you were calling up more shifts.
What you are saying makes much more sense, and I will plan on using it.
To make it clear, an example of what you are saying would be:
Our protagonist wizard is being surrounded by a gang of three thugs. He wants to disable them without harming them. He creates a gravity surge under them to hold them in place (Earth Magic), using the grapple rules, and pulls 4 Shifts of power into it (3 for Good Conviction, +1 for a Offensive Earth Focus Item in this example).
He then Rolls His Superb Discipline, getting a + on the Roll, for a total of +6. He Invokes an Aspect (It's Worth Doing Something Well) to bring it to a +8, and then has a +1 Focus Item for Control as well, bringing the grand total to a +9.
He uses 4 for the base control to hold the energy of the spell correctly, then 4 more to make the power a spray attack and affect all 3 thugs. Lastly, he uses 1 shift to extend the duration, giving him another exchange, and a precious couple of minutes to get the heck out of dodge.
Does that all make sense?
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mybe i'm missing something but shouldn't you have rolled your conviction ???
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I'm not sure what babel is talking about, but in terms of Evocation, the only time there is a benefit to having your control roll equal more than the shifts of power you called is when attacking.
This is because your control is ALSO your attack roll(for the purposes of hitting the target). Like normal attack rolls, any extra shifts over your opponents defense adds to the damage done.
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mybe i'm missing something but shouldn't you have rolled your conviction ???
Not as far as I have ever seen. Only 1 roll for evocation: Discipline to control the shifts of power.
You can call up as much power as you want, and take mental stress for the effort. Basically, that's how crazy big spells go off: You call up more power than you can handle, and take extra stresses or consequences for your effort, but manage to do silly, silly things.
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I'm not sure what babel is talking about, but in terms of Evocation, the only time there is a benefit to having your control roll equal more than the shifts of power you called is when attacking.
This is because your control is ALSO your attack roll(for the purposes of hitting the target). Like normal attack rolls, any extra shifts over your opponents defense adds to the damage done.
Babel isn't talking about extra damage, near as I can tell. He is pointing out using power for things like making the attack into a spray, or extending the effect, or the like.
Is that something that doesn't make sense to do with your Control Roll? As I said initially, I feel somewhat lost on this.
And if there's not a point in rolling higher on your control, and you take extra mental stress for going over your conviction regardless, what the heck is the point of having a high Discipline in comparison to your Conviction? It seems pretty pointless then, to me.
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I'm not sure what babel is talking about, but in terms of Evocation, the only time there is a benefit to having your control roll equal more than the shifts of power you called is when attacking.
This is because your control is ALSO your attack roll(for the purposes of hitting the target). Like normal attack rolls, any extra shifts over your opponents defense adds to the damage done.
yeah i have to go with ninja on this if discipline is what dictates the attack power for a spell then why get a high conviction at all and not kust spend all those skill points getrting a really killer discp. skill
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Ala Alba is right, those are all effects you can create with more shifts of power. The only benefit to a high control roll is a high attack roll.
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Ala is right, babel is wrong. Remember, a spell requires you specify how many shifts go into it BEFORE you actually attempt to cast it. Letting a high roll retroactively change what the spell does defeats any reason for doing that. You'd just choose a low target every time, and take the extra shifts as bonus, rather than risking fallout/backlash, and to reduce the casting stress.
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Sorry, was commenting off the top of my head as I said, and realised the error a while back but haven't been near a computer to correct it. Was mis-remembering Shifts of Power as just Shifts. Which are two entirely different things. Power has to be decided before the spell is cast, so yes, the only real benefit of massively high discipline is the attack based portions of Evocation - but that probably does include certain manoeuvres on living beings (who should feasibly get some sort of 'dodge' attempt against certain types of manoeuvres).
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Alright, so, when the books talk about characters having a high amount of control being able to accomplish feats that someone like Harry cannot, that is pretty much crap then?
Bob mentions that someone with a lot of control who uses fire might be able to use it to purify instead of burn, and there are things in the Novels like Luccio focusing fire to a tight beam which has none of the hazards that Dresden's stuff does.
So, really, all that is as far as the game goes is rolling equal control to the power? Does that mean there is nothing on Harry's sheet that prevents him from doing those things with fire mechanically, and that it is all only favor/the occasional compel to light the room on fire instead of controlling his evocations?
I really am ok with that, but I just want to verify that there is absolutely no point whatsoever to have anything less than the highest possible Conviction as a spellcaster, since it is all that governs what you are capable of.
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I really am ok with that, but I just want to verify that there is absolutely no point whatsoever to have anything less than the highest possible Conviction as a spellcaster, since it is all that governs what you are capable of.
Conviction is certainly important, but I would say Discipline is equally important for a spellcaster.
- A Wizard with Average (+1) Conviction and Superb (+5) Discipline could cast a Weapon:1 Attack that was guaranteed to avoid fallout, with an average attack rating of Superb (+5)
- A Wizard with Superb (+5) Conviction and Average (+1) Discipline could cast a Weapon:1 Attack that had a 50% chance of fallout, with an average attack rating of Average (+1)
Those are extreme examples, obviously, but hopefully it illustrates a point. Having a high Conviction is useless if you can't reliably control that much power.
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really am ok with that, but I just want to verify that there is absolutely no point whatsoever to have anything less than the highest possible Conviction as a spellcaster, since it is all that governs what you are capable of.
that's what this has me wondering now lol
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Conviction is certainly important, but I would say Discipline is equally important for a spellcaster.
- A Wizard with Average (+1) Conviction and Superb (+5) Discipline could cast a Weapon:1 Attack that was guaranteed to avoid fallout, with an average attack rating of Superb (+5)
- A Wizard with Superb (+5) Conviction and Average (+1) Discipline could cast a Weapon:1 Attack that had a 50% chance of fallout, with an average attack rating of Average (+1)
Those are extreme examples, obviously, but hopefully it illustrates a point. Having a high Conviction is useless if you can't reliably control that much power.
So, as in your first example, this is the ONLY thing that discipline does? Make an attack harder to dodge? Can you cite that in the book for me? I'm thinking in circles at this point and I am sure I am missing it.
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Seems to be a lot of confusion here. Conviction is important to evocation because it determines how powerful a spell you can cast, and how much stress you take just to come up with the necessary power. Remember that YOU choose the power level of your spell; it's not determined by die roll. You take 1 stress for casting at all, then an extra stress for each point by which your spell's strength exceeds your Conviction. So if you cast a standard flame bolt and decide to make it w:5, that's a 5 shift effect. If your Conviction is 4, then that's 2 stress: 1 for casting, and 1 because it's 1 point more than your Conviction.
Having done that, the next step is where you control your spell, which serves two purposes: determining if the spell was properly controlled and determining how well you hit your target. Both are determined by a single roll of your Discipline -- this is where Discipline becomes cruicial. For the control portion of the roll, you are comparing your Discipline roll against the power of the spell (the same number you decided on above). If your roll was at least that, all is well. If it's less, then you are going to take backlash or fallout from your lack of control. Once that's determined, compare the same Discipline roll against your target's defense roll to see if you hit. If you miss, then the stress, backlash, and fallout were for nothing. If you hit, then you figure out damage the same way you would if you swung a sword at your target. That is, you get damage based on how much you exceeded the defense roll, PLUS the weapon strength of the spell, minus any armor the defender has.
So Conviction and Discipline are both very important to spellcasting. If you have a low Conviction, you will be limited to weak spells, or you will tire quickly due to the stress for drawing the power for the spell. If you have a low Discipline, then you will be limited to weak spells, or risk damage to yourself and your surroundings from backlash/fallout of poorly controlled spells, AND you will tend to fail to cast the spells properly, as well.
Harry has a high Conviction and moderate Discipline. He can cast powerful spells fairly well ... but they tend to burn down buildings (fallout).
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So, as in your first example, this is the ONLY thing that discipline does? Make an attack harder to dodge? Can you cite that in the book for me? I'm thinking in circles at this point and I am sure I am missing it.
Becq explained it better than I could. If we're just talking about Evocation, Discipline is used to (a) successfully cast the spell without fallout or backlash, and (b) successfully hit with an attack or a maneuver. I believe that Discipline also limits the strength of your Rote spells.
Outside of Evocation, Discipline is useful for other things like defending in Social situations and building up power to cast Thaumaturgy spells.
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You can also think of an issue like this. Say you have a high power and a medium discipline. We will go with Conviction 5, Discipline 3. You want to put 5 shifts into a spell to blast an enemy hard and take them out fast.
You take your first mental stress and roll discipline (-+_ _). That is a total of four shifts of control. Now with no defense roll, this will net a total of 9 damage (weapon 5 + 4 control). However, if your opponent were to have an athletics of 3 or 4 there is a decent chance of them dodging your blast completely. And that is without a bad roll on your part.
The other scenario would be someone with the opposite scores. 3 Conviction, 5 Discipline. They can take the same one mental stress and the same roll to control it (-+_ _) and get the same 9 damage, only now they have a much higher chance of hitting the opponent. The athletics 3 guy would need a roll of (+++_) to get out of being hit which is much harder to pull off.
There is another side to this idea as well. If you throw your first spell as a flat conviction power level, then you are able to throw your next one for conviction plus one with no additional strain than casting a second time at just conviction power level (the conviction +1 power spell fills in the 2nd box, whereas the flat conviction spell would fill in the 1st box a second time rolling up to the same result). The same is correct for your 3rd spell as well. Now if you have a medium level discipline (say 3) then you will be rolling to control 5 (from conviction) plus 2 or 3 (from reaching for power). You now need 7-8 shifts of control. Not possible from a discipline of 3. If you have a conviction of 3 and a discipline of 5 you get to do one spell at 3 power, one at 4 and one at 5. All easily (more or less) with your discipline of 5.
It is basically a safer, more economical way of casting magic. It does mean you have to pull more power for bigger, non-combat effects. But if you are not in combat, then you will be able to do that without as much risk.
-Note- I am writing this without a book, so please correct me if I am wrong.
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One other thing to note here is that if you have levels of Refinement or a Focus, then your Conviction and Discipline will count as being higher for purposes of spellcasting.
For example, Harry (early in the series, character sheet on OW136) has Conviction 5 and Discipline 3. He also has a specialization, +1 power for fire. He further has a staff (+1 offensive control for spirit), a blasting rod (+1 offensive control for fire), and a shield bracelet (+1 defensive control for spirit). So when he casts a fire attack, he counts as having Conviction 6 and Discipline 4. Spirit spells (offensive or defensive) are cast as though he has Conviction 5 and Discipline 4. Air spells are at his base attributes (5 and 3), and he can't cast earth or water spells.
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Say you got an evoker built like this;
[-7] wizard template
[-2] refinement 2x
You got 5 conviction, 5 discipline, +1 spirit power, +2 spirit control, +1 spirit power focus, +4 offensive spirit control focus.
Your effective power for spirit is 7. Your defensive spirit control is +7 and your offensive spirit control is +11 total.
So for a wizard your power is above average but not exceptional. Your Control however is amazing. The following things are true;
1) You can guide your blasts with pinpoint accuracy; no chance whatsoever of doing collateral damage (fallout) if you don't want to.
2) Your well-guided spells do not miss. Only the absolutely fastest opponents will dodge and only if they are lucky.
3) Because you focus your energy into doing exactly what you want it to, you can use it more efficiently; against the average baddie with +4 defense, you are going to get +7 extra shifts. That means you are going to do a whopping 14 shifts of damage with single-target attacks or be able to attack up to three zones at once and still do 8 shifts of damage.
4) Even using a mere 1 shift of power, you can do 8 or more shifts of damage on a hit.
So effectively, you can use your power extremely effectively. By focusing the energy it would take to telekinetically lift a beer bottle into a razor-thin plane, you could cut off a man's head or mimick a sniper's shot to the heart. With enough energy to blast a zone, instead of producing a blast of crushing force to hit everyone - which many might survive - you produce a scything blade that is nigh impossible to avoid and cuts them in half. Literally; you deal as much damage as someone with TWICE your power.
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[snip]
Thank you, very much. This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I believe I understand completely, and I am glad my instincts made me ask about this today, because I knew I was missing something.
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Just for the record, Superb Conviction and Superb Discipline *are* the marks of an exceptional caster. Dresden was often described as being fairly exceptional, especially as one so young, and he was a mere 5/3 with no Refinement (to start with).
I'd assume that an 'average' Wizard (ie, one of the Wizards who, if he attends Council meetings at all, sits in a seat in the back and tries not to get called on; certainly not a Warden) would have abilities closer to 2-3 (Fair to Good) early in their career, with a level or two of Refinement added on top of that.
Note that player characters are not "average" people, even among Wizards.
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Keep in mind that this is a bit of a one-sided look at Evocation. Blocks, Maneuvers, and Counterspelling don't use this "targetting rolled into the control roll" format, so if you're looking to do anything fancier than just hitting the enemy with a blunt stick of magic, you're gonna need some more Conviction.
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That is entirely correct. Which, honestly, is sort of what I was looking for.
The character I'm slowly developing is a relative newbie to the White Council, and what's more, is considered extremely weak, having only scraped by the Council's aptitude tests. He resents this, and has vowed to make himself great based on hard work, and prove himself the equal of heavy spell-slingers in the council.
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If you want to play up the "getting more done with less power" side of things, you could take a Stunt to allow the character's lower Conviction to restrict his spellcasting less. For example:
Control is its own power: You're no mystical powerhouse, but you've got such a skilled hand with the stuff you don't *have* to be. Your Discipline compliments your Conviction in spellcasting. This includes when considering how many shifts of power you can summon via Evocation without incurring increased mental Stress.
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On the one hand, that seems pretty cool, and I'll have to see if anyone minds me doing that. Although, I was lead to believe that Stunts in general shouldn't be able to influence magic. Is that not the case?
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::shrug:: call it a power, if you must. I just called it a Stunt because it isn't really magical itself, it's just a sign of special training and experience. Stunt or power doesn't make to much of a difference, once you've already got powers.
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alright then the general rule for powers is two shifts per point of refresh on average how many more shifts do you think this power would grant someone to their spell slinging.
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That's actually the same rule as for stunts, but on a more limited basis, or +1 for a broader application. I think this evens out because (if I'm remembering the rules for one skill modifying another) a modifying skill only grants +1 to the skill modified.
if I'm wrong about that, someone let me know. don't have the books here.
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I think the power you describe is too strong; assuming your Discipline is over your Conviction (which is the only reason you'd get it) it grants a near-blanket +1 to the spell. (It would be like having a stunt that gives +1 to Weapons for attacks with weapons.) A power more inline with existing mechanics would be one that gives (for [-1] refresh) a +1 to Conviction for purposes of evocations using two specified elements (or +2 for one element). You could alternatively allow the power to give a +1 to Discipline for purposes of evocations using two specified elements (or +2 for one element), for those with high Conviction but lower Discipline. Or even allow a character to mix one bonus from each.
I propose that this power be named "Refinement [-1]". :)
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propose that this power be named "Refinement [-1]".
simply brilliant ;D
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Personally, I think it's fine. Refinement offers +2 total, this offers +1. True, it applies to everything. But the spellcasting rules heavily favor specialization, so I'm inclined to throw generalists a bone here. Plus, the character could just buy another point of conviction and so outperform this stunt 100% of the time. If the player wants to play a high Discipline, low Conviction character then they might as well have something to make up for the fact that they would be better off playing a high Discipline, high Conviction character.
In short: this stunt is only too good if it's applied to a suboptimally designed character.
But that Refinement joke WAS pretty funny.
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Generally speaking, such stunts should not be allowed to modify magic because, by definition, stunts are firmly based on what a normal human can do - not supernatural abilities. Even improving supernatural abilities with training could not be put into a stunt.
That said, a blanket +1 power to all uses of magic is too strong and, in addition, is circumventing the standard system for magical bonuses following a pyramid. There is a reason this pyramid is there.
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Well, I simply don't agree with you about the definition of a stunt. It makes essentially no difference if you call it a stunt or a -1 power, but I choose to call it a stunt. Why? Because I see no good reason not to, and it makes it easier to make new ones.
Anyway, I've said my piece about this stunt/power. I cannot imagine any situation in which this would unbalance a game.
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The stunt as you worded it not only gives greater bonuses (+1 to three or more elements, rather than +1 to two elements), but also avoids the limits on specialization structuring and the Lore limit. For example:
Consider, for example a spellflinger character with fire, air, and spirit elements, Lore 2, the "Control is its own power" stunt, and 1 Refinement. The free spec is +1 fire power, the Refinement grants +1 fire power and +1 air power. The final bonuses are +3 fire power, +2 air power, and +1 spirit power, despite the limit of gaining no more than the character's Lore as a single bonus. In addition, the best a character who got a second Refinement instead of the stunt could do would be +2 fire power, +2 air power, and +1 spirit power, so the stunt nets an extra point of bonus, as well!
This becomes even more pronouced if the character chose to use the Refinement to add the water element. Now the stunted version of the character has +2 fire, +1 air, +1 spirit, and +1 water, while the dual Refinement character gets only +2 fire and +1 air -- two fewer bonuses.
In addition, if the character with the stunt also has Thaumaturgy, the stunt allows them to control more power per roll than a character without the stunt, and allows this for all themes/functions.
Given this, the stunt -- which is supposed to grant about two shifts of situational bonuses -- is granting way too many bonuses.
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I had considered the complimenting option (which would grant only +1) better than the "use Discipline instead of Conviction for spellcasting" option, which would have the potential to grant an even wider benefit.
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See, this is why the difference between stunts and powers (even [-1] powers) is more than mere semantics. Fine. If you insist on treating powers as stunts and spellcasting as trappings, then it seems pretty clear that each element counts as a seperate 'trapping'. This is why a point of Refinement can add only one element if used in such a way; it's the equivalent of adding a trapping to the spellcasting ability.
So, under your house rule definitions, your skill would have to say that "Your Discipline compliments your Conviction in Fire spellcasting" or even "You get a +1 Conviction while casting Fire spells". Note that normally, a stunt would grant two shifts of situational benefits, but not in this case -- because the rules state that stunts should not stack, and if they do they must have a reduced effect. Since this new stunt is designed to stack with the existing Refinement 'stunt', it has to be reduced. Further, since this bonus is of the same type as that given by specializations, it would clearly have to obey the same limits -- no total bonus greater than Lore, and columns must be observed.
Enjoy! (Though I'm going to stick with the guidelines for stunt and power creation as given in the books.)
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From the definition of stunt in the books;
The stunts in this chapter are called mortal
stunts because they’re available to everyone—
supernatural and mundane characters alike—
and have both feet firmly planted in the realm
of what’s possible for a normal (mortal) human
to do.
So no, you cannot take stunts to improve supernatural abilities at all.
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From the definition of stunt in the books;
Posted on: Today at 11:01:50 AM Posted by: Belial666
Insert Quote
From the definition of stunt in the books;
Quote
The stunts in this chapter are called mortal
stunts because they’re available to everyone—
supernatural and mundane characters alike—
and have both feet firmly planted in the realm
of what’s possible for a normal (mortal) human
to do.
So no, you cannot take stunts to improve supernatural abilities at all.
It says the are called "Mortal Stunts"...
Simply call it a Supernatural stunt instead... Tomato... Tomahto
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supernatural stunt *cough* power *cough*
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supernatural stunt *cough* power *cough*
Yeah that's what I was thinking. The book even declares supernatural powers as stunts that are supernatural ...
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labels are interchangeable its the effects that matter
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labels are interchangeable its the effects that matter
shakespeare said it best IMO
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet. -Shakespeare
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There are several big differences though;
1) Thresholds diminish powers but not stunts.
2) Stunts do not stack with other stunts. A power would stack with a stunt.
3) Powers require a high concept that allows for them.
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You know, I really hadn't thought about that stuff. Well, I had considered the stacking issues, but definitely not the bit about thresholds. But if anything, that makes me more inclined to treat these abilities as stunts. Most of them are just good old human skill and knowledge applied to supernatural powers. If it involves a skill, then I think it can involve stunts. Because that's how I think of stunts: as an addendum to skills.
You know, this thread is really off topic. How would you feel about creating another one to discuss this?
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that would probably be the right thing to do, we have gone a bit far afield.
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anybody got the link to the new topic
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It doesn't exist yet. The other side of the argument (mainly Belial and Becq) hasn't said anything yet, and there's no point creating another thread if they aren't going to be there.
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a touche :D