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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Morfedel on October 24, 2010, 03:34:10 PM

Title: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Morfedel on October 24, 2010, 03:34:10 PM
So, examining the rules and looking at the examples, enchanted items don't seem to fit what we see in the source material - at least, Harry's trench coat.

His coat took shot after shot after shot, knife blows, all kinds.of things. The narration most definitely seemed to indicate that his coat lasts for months, and certainly seemed to get a lot of use.

And yet its limited.to a.few used per session?

I hadn't checked yet, but I wonder if the wards, which an last for months if not triggered, have the same problem. For that matter, the novels talks about taking down wards and restoring them, amulets to bypass them, etc, but haven't seen the rules for it. But, I admit to being new.to the game and still reading the rule book.

So, rules issues, or did I miss something?
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Belial666 on October 24, 2010, 04:46:38 PM
1) We have never seen Harry's original coat (before it was upgraded) deflect more than a couple attacks per day.

2) Enchanted items can be fueled with more uses via mental stress. So even if the uses run out, Harry can still use his items if he needs to.

3) The basic Ward lasts until sunrise, like most thaumaturgies. By spending extra shifts of complexity you can increase duration. With enough shifts, you can make a ward last for several human lifetimes.

4) You can bypass your own wards, yes. You can also add passwords and keys, wardflames and alarms and so on. Read the rules for Wards again.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: deathwombat on October 24, 2010, 04:51:29 PM
Source material does not have to deal with game balance or mechanics issues either...
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Morfedel on October 25, 2010, 12:41:42 AM
Source material does not have to deal with game balance or mechanics issues either...

But in designing a game, you have the ability to take both game balance and game source material into account during the  design process. In other words, their hands were hardly tied.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on October 25, 2010, 01:15:39 AM
It is a very bad idea to change game rules for the worse in order to accommodate the source material. That sort of thinking is a major cause of the generally low quality of video game adaptations.

That being said, I think that there should be rules for "always-on" magic items that aren't full Items Of Power. Don't ask me what they should be, but there should be some.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Kaldra on October 25, 2010, 01:58:10 AM
trail and error usually work out the best in code so lets start trying. the goal would be an item that is continuous, requiring no activation. compared to other items in the game this seems to make the continuous item more appealing meaning that it needs something to keep it on level with the other items. so how do we make a continuous item less appealing, the first method would be cost. make continuous items cost the same number of slots as a focus item. another method could be to make them less appealing would be to limit the power of them, say instead of using your lore score use lore over two rounded down or lore minus 3 min 1. any ideas?
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Morfedel on October 25, 2010, 02:45:51 AM
It is a very bad idea to change game rules for the worse in order to accommodate the source material. That sort of thinking is a major cause of the generally low quality of video game adaptations.

That being said, I think that there should be rules for "always-on" magic items that aren't full Items Of Power. Don't ask me what they should be, but there should be some.

What I'm saying is it should have  been designed that way in the first place. And I believe that it is possible to have created it to be more true to the source material and still be balanced.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Morfedel on October 25, 2010, 02:47:13 AM
1) We have never seen Harry's original coat (before it was upgraded) deflect more than a couple attacks per day.

True. But that changed in the later novels.

Quote
2) Enchanted items can be fueled with more uses via mental stress. So even if the uses run out, Harry can still use his items if he needs to.

Yes, and I found that out after reading another thread after posting this one, hehe, oops! It's still not quite true to the source material, but at least it's possible.

Quote
3) The basic Ward lasts until sunrise, like most thaumaturgies. By spending extra shifts of complexity you can increase duration. With enough shifts, you can make a ward last for several human lifetimes.

4) You can bypass your own wards, yes. You can also add passwords and keys, wardflames and alarms and so on. Read the rules for Wards again.

Ok, thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Morfedel on October 25, 2010, 03:08:22 AM
Hm, just an idea here, as I JUST bought the books a week ago, and haven't read them in excruciating detail yet, but I wonder if instead of adding powers, if you could use thaumaturgy to add aspects to items.

So, for example, Dresden's coat could have the Aspect "Bullet Proof." And perhaps he could tag it once for free, and, once invoked, it lasts for a scene or something. And its enchantment level could determine how many times it could be could be invoked before needing to be completely recharged (if it uses its last charge, before being recharged, it's item could be shredded, destroyed, whatever, if absorbing an attack)?

I don't know, just brainstorming. I need to read how thaumaturgy can add aspects and manuevers. I suppose then the coat could have more aspects, such as "More Bulletproof," and "Even more bulletproof" to represent it being tougher and tougher... or whatever. :)

I'll read some more rules over the next few days and give it some thought.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Kaldra on October 25, 2010, 03:19:27 AM
basicly you would have to use a spell to stick the object with the aspect and then pump into it a whole butload of power to keep it there for more than one scene and allowing it to be tagged for free. this could work but it seems like it would be rather inefficient
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: babel2uk on October 25, 2010, 08:08:54 AM
Yeah, the aspect thing really wouldn't work. All it would do mechanically is add 2 to your dodge roll when you spent a fate point. So you'd actually be making the coat less effective.

Personally I think the system as it stands pretty accurately reflects the majority of the magic used in the books. And I think it's absolutely fair that an 'always on' enchanted item (that holds a spell effect) isn't something that just comes 'free' with the ability to use magic. I make that distinction because a Focus Item basically falls under the description of 'always on'.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: WillH on October 25, 2010, 01:23:20 PM
What I'm saying is it should have  been designed that way in the first place. And I believe that it is possible to have created it to be more true to the source material and still be balanced.

In theory, the enchanted items don't model the source material because they aren't always on. In reality you will never need to use an enchanted armor item more than a few times per session, so that limitation really isn't a factor. There used to be rules for always on items, but since you will only need it a few times a session, always on items were much less useful than limited use items. Eventually the rules were dropped.

As for Harry's coat taking shot after shot, there are a couple things to keep in mind. First that coat is a plot device. It protected Harry when JB needed it to, but it also did not protect him when that was better for the plot. SO what about the coat taking all sorts of machine gun fire? Well a single use will last an entire exchange* so that accounts for multiple attacks. You can take mental stress to get extra uses. That is in line with the source material. There is no way you can say Harry wasn't taking all sorts of mental stress when he was being raked with machine gun fire.

*I'm not sure if that's 100% in line with the rules, but it makes sense and is how I handle it.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on October 25, 2010, 06:34:57 PM
Someone has collected everything that Jim has said about magic in the Dresdenverse, and this is what the collection has to say about Wards:

"No wards on the office.  To build a ward, you have to use a threshold of some kind.  (Well, you can use other kinds of similar energy structures, like ley lines, ogham stones, etc, but you can't just slap them down anywhere.)  No wards on Harry's office in the books for that reason."

Richard
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Belial666 on October 25, 2010, 11:43:04 PM
That is not entirely correct. The Merlin and the Gatekeeper erected a ward in the Nevernever, in the middle of a battlefield, during combat, to stop an army of Red Court vampires and Outsiders. So it might be possible to erect wards without a base - but you'd need far beyond Harry's skill with Wards to do it.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Becq on October 26, 2010, 12:05:12 AM
Regarding the coat, each 'charge' lasts for a full exchange, which could be as much as a minute or two depending on the circumstances.  In practice, if a group of thugs let loose with a volley of gunfire (whether that constitutes a double-tap from a pistol or a burst from a machine-gun) a single charge would protect from all of them ... until one beat the block strength and the charge expired.  (Though in this example a second charge could be expended to defend against the next attack after the block failed.)  For a high-block item (or low-skilled thugs) that could easily add up to a LOT of protection.  In addition, as stated earlier, the wearer can expend mental stress for additional uses.

So with reference to the novels, it might be useful to ask whether Dresden appeared to tire out faster after getting shot up a lot, even when his coat blocked all or most of the damage?  Hard to say, but I think you could argue that the novels and game might well be consistent, at least to a reasonable degree.

That is not entirely correct. The Merlin and the Gatekeeper erected a ward in the Nevernever, in the middle of a battlefield, during combat, to stop an army of Red Court vampires and Outsiders. So it might be possible to erect wards without a base - but you'd need far beyond Harry's skill with Wards to do it.
I don't recall the details of that scene, but didn't they draw a circle to anchor the ward?  Circle = threshold.  An office, however, is hard to draw a circle around.

Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on October 26, 2010, 12:56:05 AM
That is not entirely correct. The Merlin and the Gatekeeper erected a ward in the Nevernever, in the middle of a battlefield, during combat, to stop an army of Red Court vampires and Outsiders. So it might be possible to erect wards without a base - but you'd need far beyond Harry's skill with Wards to do it.

Shrug.

I didn't say it - some guy named Jim Butcher did.  At http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1858.msg34804.html#msg34804 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1858.msg34804.html#msg34804).  *Thanks, Serack for compiling the list of quotes*
The main reason I quoted it was to show that something other than a threshold can anchor a ward, it has to be more than "I want a ward there so I'm putting it there".  You need something with a "similar energy structures" to a threshold.

About that battle - Harry only hears about it second hand, and that from someone who barely survived the battle.  I'm guessing details were left out.

Richard
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: MWKilduff on October 26, 2010, 02:22:00 AM

2) Enchanted items can be fueled with more uses via mental stress. So even if the uses run out, Harry can still use his items if he needs to.

Where is this extra uses of the enchanted items via additional mental stress written?  I would like to use it in my games.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Becq on October 26, 2010, 03:08:35 AM
Where is this extra uses of the enchanted items via additional mental stress written?  I would like to use it in my games.  Thanks.
Here you go:
Quote from: YS280
If an enchanted item runs out
of uses in a session, if wielded by a practitioner,
he may make additional uses anyway by taking
one point of mental stress per use.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: WillH on October 26, 2010, 04:14:36 AM
Shrug.

I didn't say it - some guy named Jim Butcher did.  At http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1858.msg34804.html#msg34804 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1858.msg34804.html#msg34804).  *Thanks, Serack for compiling the list of quotes*
The main reason I quoted it was to show that something other than a threshold can anchor a ward, it has to be more than "I want a ward there so I'm putting it there".  You need something with a "similar energy structures" to a threshold.


He said that in 2007. Since then both a public rental luggage locker and a public storage facility have been warded. Any "rule" of magic should at most be only viewed as a guideline for how it works for most people, most of the time.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Becq on October 26, 2010, 03:27:17 PM
Keep in mind that 'natural' thresholds are not the only kind of thresholds you can anchor a ward to.  A magic circle, for example, is a threshold -- and it can be drawn nearly anywhere.  One exception would be most places of business, since anything breaking the circle -- like wiring on a phone, for example -- would break the circle.  But on a storage garage or locker -- both of which are empty boxes, basically -- it shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Captain Indigo on October 26, 2010, 03:32:54 PM
Quote from: WillH
He said that in 2007. Since then both a public rental luggage locker and a public storage facility have been warded. Any "rule" of magic should at most be only viewed as a guideline for how it works for most people, most of the time.
I don't remember exactly about the locker, but I'm fairly certain the storage unit was described as having runes scrawled all over the inside, which would say to me that Harry was anchoring the ward on those runes instead of a threshold.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Morfedel on October 26, 2010, 04:19:25 PM
I don't remember exactly about the locker, but I'm fairly certain the storage unit was described as having runes scrawled all over the inside, which would say to me that Harry was anchoring the ward on those runes instead of a threshold.

That locker belonged to Marcone's valkyrie minion, and it was described as.being.covered in runes.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Morfedel on October 26, 2010, 07:26:11 PM
After reading the responses here, and a thread on rpg.net on.combat balance between a wizard and a pure mortal, I'm ore accepting now of the enchanted item usage rules. I still don't think they are accurately canon (or is it cannon?), but I will admit that, for the most part, the game rules do a very credible job of replicating the novels, enchanted items aside.

I guess I was being nitpicky.   :)
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on October 26, 2010, 08:54:51 PM
He said that in 2007. Since then both a public rental luggage locker and a public storage facility have been warded. Any "rule" of magic should at most be only viewed as a guideline for how it works for most people, most of the time.

Jim can (and probably has) changed his mind at times, but as others have pointed out the locker and storage facility had a great deal of work put into them before the wards were added.  To me it's a bit like adding some ogham stones (or something like it) to a structure.

Speaking of those runes, they often take days to draw and can do more things that just function as wards.  I'm not sure if I would treat them as potions or as some sort of magic not covered by the rules.

Richard
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: WillH on October 26, 2010, 09:15:03 PM
I don't see the runes as anything but a bit of color for the wards. That is they aren't something the wards are anchored to. They're just part of the ward. Regardless, there are exceptions to the must have a threshold or couple other rare things rule for wards. So, if you want an exception for your wards, you should feel free to make one.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on October 27, 2010, 01:16:29 AM
Ogham stones are basically stones with runes carved in them.  Since they qualify, I would say any runes that took weeks to prepare would basically be the same thing, and thus serve as an anchor point as defined by JB,

Richard
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Becq on October 27, 2010, 01:24:13 AM
I guess the way I'd think of it is this: in order to establish a Ward, you need to have a well-defined boundary.  Circles are ideal for this in Harry's magical style.  The Standing Stones would probably be an ancient magical styles attempt at defining a boundary by way of large, solid, immovable dots that could be mentally connected.  Runes could be used for Runic magic connect-the-dots.  And in this case, the connect-the-dots are three dimensional...
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Kaldra on October 28, 2010, 08:36:37 AM
as seen in turn coat:
(click to show/hide)

how would the rest of you work this one out? i can see arguements for it being one really really badass potion ( like ) thing or perhaps even calling it a full out enchanted item that just has a once per major milestone refresh rate with no way of getting extra uses.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Belial666 on October 28, 2010, 09:43:41 AM
Potion-like multi-item. As in, several slots that are different enchanted abilities in one physical item sort of like having a necklace where every stone is separately enchanted. It requires a Lore of 5 and +1 potion frequencey and 3 potion slots.

1st slot is 10 shift "potion" that applies 3 aspects with two uses.
2nd slot is a 10 shift "potion" that creates a ward - first use is a 10-shift Ward, second use benefits on activation by said 3 aspects above so its strength is pushed to 16.
3rd slot is a 10-shift landmine that activates if the wards are breached. First use is a Weapon 8 zone-wide attack blasting whoever breached the Wards. Second use benefits from 3 aspects on activation, being a Weapon 8 attack on 4 zones, including the zone of whoever breached the Wards.

Yep, it is a weird idea and it kind of pushes the limits of potions but it took 6 months for Harry to make it while a normal potion takes a couple of hours. I am assuming here that Harry invoked aspects during creation so he pushed the potion strength from the normal 5 to the maximum of 10 for him. And yeah, it is a scarily powerful defense - as it should, since the Naagloshi could not breach it.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Serack on October 28, 2010, 10:07:51 AM
I don't see the runes as anything but a bit of color for the wards. That is they aren't something the wards are anchored to. They're just part of the ward. Regardless, there are exceptions to the must have a threshold or couple other rare things rule for wards. So, if you want an exception for your wards, you should feel free to make one.

I do not see the locker as warded but as protected by a rune set to trigger off under certain circumstances.  Although this sounds like semantics, the stories of "Something Borrowed" and "Even Hand" showed some very poignant examples of how Gard's magic is rune based.  In other words anytime Gard "casts" a spell it requires a rune that is already pre-made with that particular usage in mind (kinda like a scroll in Diablo 1) in this case, the "scroll" was set on a metaphorical tripwire at the door.  NOT a ward!

As to the Renta-storage unit, There is also the example of Elaine's ward on the hotel door.  You can build wards on non-household thresholds, you just have a really poor anchor for them that severely limits what they can accomplish.  Harry worked long and hard to reinforce that anchor point as much as he could with arcane drawings and runes and such to focus the wards (kinda like the runes on his staff and blasting rods help him focus his magic) and yet from what I remember (fuzzy) he still only had an early warning detection system out of the deal. 

Yah he had a ward, but it wasn't going to liquefy several dozen zombies.  It was much much much more limited than that.

these WoJ's allow for that

Quote
No wards on the office.  You need a threshold for anything but teensy defenses, and the office is a public place of business, not a home.

Quote
No wards on the office.  To build a ward, you have to use a threshold of some kind.  (Well, you can use other kinds of similar energy structures, like ley lines, ogham stones, etc, but you can't just slap them down anywhere.)  No wards on Harry's office in the books for that reason.

The office doesn't have a whole hell of a lot of "home" energy around it.  Virtually none.  I mean, a hotel room would have more.  Harry could probably sling up some kind of tripwire-rings-a-bell equivalent ward, if he wanted to, but even that would be tricky and he has better ways to spend his time and effort.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Kaldra on October 28, 2010, 07:56:21 PM
@belial666 i like that, but it makes me think what could happen if you used more slots on it, it would not have to be a bomb shelter anymore but now i am thinking what other fun sorta things you could do using multiple effects like that.

oh rube goldberg never thought it would go this far.
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: JustinS on October 30, 2010, 08:58:41 AM
The thing to note with Wards is that people with more Lore and Refinement [wards] can likely pull off things that Harry would have trouble with (though if I were stating up the merlin, I would give him a combat warding stunt too).
Title: Re: Enchanted Items (and Wards?): inaccurate rules or me missing something?
Post by: Belial666 on October 30, 2010, 09:22:45 AM
One thing to mention is that people with Sponsored Magic can do thaumaturgy with the speed of evocation. Someone with, say, Soulfire could well do a Ward in the middle of nowhere in a moment.