ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Wolfwood2 on October 18, 2010, 06:50:08 PM

Title: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: Wolfwood2 on October 18, 2010, 06:50:08 PM

I'm a little confused on what it takes to get into the Nevernever.  As far as I can tell:

1. Any supernatural creature can do it, but it usually takes them them a scene (or being absent from a scene) so they can go find a place that "resonates" with their power.

2. Anyone with Worldwalker can do it at any time, so they can use it for quick escapes and such.

3. Anyone with Thaumaturgy can do it?  Not quite sure I got this one.  Harry seems able to rip open portals to the Nevernever on the spot.  Is that because the complexity of the ritual is below his Lore, so it's not a problem?

Also, what about humans who have more limited powers?  Like, can a focused practicioner find their way to the Nevernever?  Do we treat them as "a supernatural creature" for this purpose?

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: wolff96 on October 18, 2010, 07:05:28 PM

Quote from: Wolfwood2 on October 18, 2010, 06:50:08 PM

1. Any supernatural creature can do it, but it usually takes them them a scene (or being absent from a scene) so they can go find a place that "resonates" with their power.

Agreed.

Quote

2. Anyone with Worldwalker can do it at any time, so they can use it for quick escapes and such.

Yup.

Quote

3. Anyone with Thaumaturgy can do it?  Not quite sure I got this one.  Harry seems able to rip open portals to the Nevernever on the spot.  Is that because the complexity of the ritual is below his Lore, so it's not a problem?

The section on page 283 is what you're looking for and, indeed, anyone with Thaumaturgy can open a temporary portal.  Keeping them open is, of course, tougher (details on the same page).  If you're looking at someplace with a Superb barrier, it's not all that tough to open a portal with even a low-level Lore -- a couple of manuvers worth of preperation and then a round or two of channeling at the most.  

Quote

Also, what about humans who have more limited powers?  Like, can a focused practicioner find their way to the Nevernever?  Do we treat them as "a supernatural creature" for this purpose?

This is a bit fuzzier under the rules and falls (IMO, obviously) into the realm of GM decision-making.  It depends heavily on *what* the power is for such a creature.  If a character is an Emissary of a Power, I would say he could *certainly* cross over in places important to his patron.  Natural 'shifters could cross over in places of nature, if it fits their concept.  A Focused Practitioner like Mort could probably cross over in a place important to his Focus -- like a graveyard for Mort.

Long story short, I don't think anyone but vanilla mortals should be barred entirely -- and even they might cross if they had sufficient Lore to find a place or use a Ritual.  Like anything else in Dresden Files, would it make a better story if someone was shut out of the Nevernever?

Even Michael could have probably crossed over in a sufficiently Holy place on his own in Grave Peril...  except the GM tossed a Compel his way and forced him to get out with Thomas for amusement value.   ;D

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: sinker on October 19, 2010, 04:31:18 AM

I had that same question a while ago. We had a character in the party who had Channeling: Positive Chi and he wanted to tear a hole to the Nevernever. Don't think it ever came up in play though, our party wasn't hurting for spellslingers (1 thaumaturge, 3 full wizards and one fey sponsored caster).

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: babel2uk on October 19, 2010, 08:02:30 AM

The whole enetering the NeverNever thing is a little bit of an oddity. The way it's described in the novels makes it sound far more like evocation than thaumaturgy, but the rules describe it as a use of thaumaturgy.

I was going to post up that only people who can use actual magic, and creatures that have ties to the NeverNever can cross over. But when I think about it there are more than enough stories and legends where normal people stumble across into faerie. That may of course be because the barrier between worlds was once much thinner than it is now. I'm still a little dubious about Michael being able to cross over on his own - I kinda see Holy Places actually being more of a bastion against the Never Never. I'd say that unless the barrier is thin enough for anyone (including completely vanilla mortals) to cross over then it should require at least Thaumaturgy to do so (or Ritual if the area of expertise is to do with transportation and world-walking).

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: wolff96 on October 19, 2010, 04:30:35 PM

Quote from: babel2uk on October 19, 2010, 08:02:30 AM

I'm still a little dubious about Michael being able to cross over on his own - I kinda see Holy Places actually being more of a bastion against the Never Never. I'd say that unless the barrier is thin enough for anyone (including completely vanilla mortals) to cross over then it should require at least Thaumaturgy to do so (or Ritual if the area of expertise is to do with transportation and world-walking).

I guess this is one of those areas where we'll have to agree to disagree.

If Michael Carpenter wanted to cross over into the Nevernever, I would make it rather difficult for him to do so.  He calls up Harry, he does the research on his own, or he looks for a place the barrier is really thin.  If Michael, Knight of the Cross and Fist of God, needs to cross over into the Nevernever to pursue a fleeing demon and save an innocent soul, I can't see anything being capable of barring his passage. 

That's the difference to me -- one is a character looking to pass over for some reason.  The other is a high-concept driven Emissary of Power smashing through the barrier between worlds because it furthers his patron's designs.

I'm kind of a story guy anyway.  If a player makes a case for passing over because it fits his High Concept, I'm not going to sweat it over whether or not he has a specific power...  unless the story is enhanced further by his being barred from the Nevernever for some reason.

I think it makes a lot of sense for Focused Practitioners and other members of the supernatural community being able to pass over where the area fits with their personality or concept.  It's not like all White Court Vampires have Thaumaturgy or Ritual, after all, and they're the specific example for supernaturals being able to cross over where it resonates with their concept...

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: babel2uk on October 19, 2010, 04:53:45 PM

Quote from: wolff96 on October 19, 2010, 04:30:35 PM

It's not like all White Court Vampires have Thaumaturgy or Ritual, after all, and they're the specific example for supernaturals being able to cross over where it resonates with their concept...

White Court Vampires are creatures of the Never Never. They may be the closest to human of the Vampire Courts, but they do carry a demon round inside them, and it's the places that are attuned to that demonic aspect where they can cross over.

Fair enough, we'll disagree. My main argument against Michael being able to enter the Never Never unaided is because Faith seems to act as a direct counter to the Supernatural. Overcoming obstacles is what makes a story - it's a far more interesting story for him to have to seek help to pursue said demon. Of course the easiest way for that to manifest is through his Guide My Hand ability - and have his friend Harry stumble onto the scene at exactly the right time.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: sinker on October 19, 2010, 06:16:49 PM

I think faith seems to act as a direct counter to evil but not necessarily to the supernatural. If Harry threw fire at Michael I don't think his faith would be any more effective than it would be against a bullet or a sword or for that matter someone throwing a torch at him. The whole concept of soulfire seems to bear that idea out (it being at least in Harry's case a combination of faith based power and Harry's own supernatural abilities).

The weirdest thing is that it is the only example I can find of thaumaturgy that isn't thaumaturgy. It is technically thaumaturgy but it doesn't have a complexity, requires no preparation, etc. It's described as a simple action against the strength of the barrier.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: FangGrip on October 19, 2010, 06:34:41 PM

It seems to kinda work as Thaumaturgy at the Speed of Evocation.  Kinda like how many of the sponsored magic options work.  Thats how I am running it anyway.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: ralexs1991 on October 19, 2010, 07:39:36 PM

i would just treat it as a role against the stregth of the barrier

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: zerogain on October 19, 2010, 08:13:49 PM

I think that the issue of anyone accidentally crossing over should be removed from consideration for this.  We're talking intentional crossing.  I have no issue with high concept driven story reasons to speed the crossing, and after all the game is more about fun than about properly modeling what the books do.

I don't like to use the vampires as models because of the rather large amount of retconning done to them over the course of the series.  I am no longer clear on what is or is not from the NN, or what has problems being here and what does not because the books seem a bit soft on the logic there.

Insofar as intentional crossing is concerned remember that anyone can take Worldwalker if they want to have the innate talent to cross over.  In the case of the positive chi chaneller, I imagine he had some refresh to play with so he could have "discovered" that talent mid-play.  Otherwise it's thaumaturgy or handwaviology by the GM and therefore off screen or in the hands of mysterious NPCs.

As far as the time and speed of use, in instances where Harry is 'rapidly' opening portals I don't recall it being evocative.  I can think of a few where the story is further complicated by how long it takes him to open the way, even in Changes.  I submit that the most frequently used way in Turn Coat has it's location as part of the thaumaturgy components.  The narrative may flow fast, but that's all author's license, and Harry's still doing grunt work thaumaturgy.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: ralexs1991 on October 20, 2010, 03:38:35 AM

Quote

I can think of a few where the story is further complicated by how long it takes him to open the way, even in Changes. 

well remeber the part when he was fighting the Ick in the Erlking's court he opened that portol obove him and Susan to protect them both from the falling debris

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: zerogain on October 20, 2010, 03:54:26 AM

True, though this is a spoiler-free zone unless I'm missing something and mistaken.  In the fight

(click to show/hide)

with the Ick in the Erlking's lair

however Harry

(click to show/hide)

has already accepted the mantle of Winter Knight,

and I think this can be ruled as one of those situations where his sponsored magic talent will permit him to perform Thaumaturgy with Evocation's speed, so you can't really use that to justify Warden Bob in Miami having rapid worldwalking.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: ralexs1991 on October 20, 2010, 04:04:14 AM

yeah that totally slipped my mind

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: Drashna on October 20, 2010, 04:44:48 AM

(click to show/hide)

What about Agatha? And facing down lea by eating the death shrooms? :)

  Theoretically, if the veil between the real world and the Nevernever is especially thin, you wouldn't really need that much in the way of complexity to open a portal. In fact, purely mental constructs would be all that is required.

(click to show/hide)

And considering the repeated weakening of said veil that allowed Kravos and Harry to create powerful ghosts, and then the Darkhallow,

The veil between has been very tenuous at best in Chicago. Harry wouldn't need to do much.

Even just mechanically, how long does the ritual have to be? If you have "Great" Lore or better, chances are you won't need to spend much time at all as you can hit it easily. (the no-prep "clause")

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: ralexs1991 on October 20, 2010, 01:26:55 PM

as for agatha she was a being from NN so she got the special "i can cross whereever i'm attuned with (places for killing babies lol)"  just like with thomas in WN

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: Drashna on October 20, 2010, 06:43:09 PM

I was specifically referring to harry following her through, pretty much right away. Sorry for not specifying.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: zerogain on October 20, 2010, 08:39:33 PM

Well it wasn't like he grabbed the hem of her dress and hitched a ride.  I can see aspects you've already noted as being on the scene and tagged. 

(click to show/hide)

Weak Barrier [+2], Recent Transition [+2], At The Center of Her Power [+2] for starters, he's hit her with the dust so that's enough for a sympathetic link, and don't forget that Michael was right there too, and I'm pretty sure that would have helped tremendously.

  In short this is a one-time special occasion that would use GM handwaviology to progress the story with the understanding that it isn't normally this easy to transition.

Compare to the battle

(click to show/hide)

in the Wraith Deeps

, it takes Harry significant effort to open the door there and to keep it open. 

(click to show/hide)

Ramirez has to keep everyone off Harry's back for at least a few exchanges while that happens.

This thread http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21851.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21851.0.html) has some discussion about the length of time required for even a no prep clause ritual.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: Morfedel on October 20, 2010, 09:41:40 PM

Quote from: zerogain on October 19, 2010, 08:13:49 PM

I don't like to use the vampires as models because of the rather large amount of retconning done to them over the course of the series.  I am no longer clear on what is or is not from the NN, or what has problems being here and what does not because the books seem a bit soft on the logic there.

Retcon? Realize I'm not being argumentative, I don't know what you are referring to.

As for Michael and entering the NN, if I recall correctly, didn't Michael rescue Charity from that Dragon while in the NN? I couldve sworn there was an offhand comment about that in one of the books. If so, he had to get there somehow.

On the other hand, God will provide, and He works in mysterious ways. If necessary, a wizard or somesuch would be arranged. And as such, Michael can do anything when needed for his mission, even when provided indirectly :)

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: zerogain on October 21, 2010, 03:17:41 AM

To me the nature of vampires changes between Storm Front and Grave Peril.  In SF Harry's monologue indicates vampires have a hard enough time just holding themselves together on this side of the barrier, indicating that they (all vampires) are creatures of the Nevernever.  By GP this has changed, it seems they are more tied into the world and there's never again any mention of holding themselves together, just keeping the flesh masks on.  Also by this time there are now multiple courts of vampires, etc.

Now we have a great excuse here in that the case files are all first person, and if something changed it's just that Harry didn't know the truth beforehand and is being shockingly truthful in his retelling of his own failings.  I classify it a retcon, but that's just how I see it.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: Drashna on October 21, 2010, 03:39:00 AM

Ah. The spot in question is about thresholds.  Well, about anything that's not human is a demon or spirit of some kind (or partially).  I think Jim used the example of Vampires there because "invitation only" is a very well known Vamp "weakness".

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: Becq on October 21, 2010, 07:54:04 PM

I'm not seeing a lot that I would classify as a retcon there.  As Drashna mentioned, the passage you're talking about is relative to thresholds: Vampires have trouble crossing them, and at best would be significantly weakened by them (and would lose their fleshmask).  And throughout the series, red court vamps tend to lose their fleshmasks quickly under stress (a fight, for example), which reflects that concentration needed to maintain the mask.

Title: Re: Who can enter the Nevernever?
Post by: Drashna on October 22, 2010, 01:16:50 AM

Not only would they lose their fleshmask, most of their "essence" would be suppressed.  And given that WoJ implies that a person's soul is consumed in the process of becoming a full Red, that they are indeed spirits/demons.  In fact, I kinda view it as a very very very (ad infinum) small ascension ritual. It's got the right feel, and components. Just not the same scale. And with all the other "rites of ascension that is mentioned by Jim Himself, it not only makes sense, I suspect that's the idea. :)  Which would among other things, explain the inability to cross a threshold uninvited.