Well, it may have the strength, but not the flexibility. No manuevers, no increasing power with a good roll, etc.
I wouldn't allow the "one mental stress after session uses for more effect". That's not in the rules and no item has a similar effect.
I'd also say that while he can craft potions more "frequently", that they aren't multiple uses per slot. The book states that one potion = 1 slot, and that potions can *only* be used once. Period. (YS280 and implied again on OS226) It means that he can have a huge stash of them at home, or the like.
I wouldn't allow the "one mental stress after session uses for more effect". That's not in the rules and no item has a similar effect.
taking advantage of your unfamiliarity of the rules and breaking the system.no i do not think he is. and if he becomes a problem talk to him about it but threatening him with character death seems a bit much especially if you carry through with it, speaking as a long time role-player character death sucks and doubly so in a game where you really have to put a bit of work into them and who they are.
I built an Artificer (item crafter) character who duke out with the best evocators, and its totally rules compliant.I don't really see why as well. The only thing "against the spirit of the game" is that there is a lack of a specific example of such a character in the Dresdenverse. But bearing in mind that afterall Harry specifically tells Billy not to "make these guys (focused practioners) sound like they’re featherweights", I do not see why such a character should not be allowed.
I really don't see why people seem to think such a character is "against the spirit of the game"
The mental stress for uses 'patch' is pretty much invalid. It predates the publication of the rulebook, so arguably the rulebook takes precedence - the playtest of this patch probably showed just how open to abuse it is.
Of note babel you can create potions that have more than one use Via Foci (Ryan's got it in his character concept). Check the crafting specializations section (also on page YS280).
I have, but I really don't think the frequency applies to potions - it doesn't make sense, you can't drink a potion twice. The Potions section clearly states that potions can be used once, period, and 1 potion = 1 slot. You have to spend extra item slots to get more potions. You're giving up the ability to have multiple uses from the same item, in exchange for being able to boost it on the fly (which you can't do with other enchanted items), plus you don't have to pay the extra cost for it to be useable by someone else and you can declare you have a given potion at any time.
Regardless, an item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage."
After it’s used, the item requires time to recharge by some means that you determine; this is assumed to take long enough to reach into the next session
But personally, I don't see a problem with allowing it. Yes, you lock yourself down to what you do but maybe you're a wizard that believes that all his power *must* be channeled through objects. And it really *should* be part of the characters high concept (or so *I* believe), which means things like destroying his lab, or removing his items should be considered compels. Again, at least that's what I think. I'm sure people will disagree with me.It feels counter-intuitive to Dresden Files, but there is no reason it isn't completely viable. I just wanted to provide examples that bring to light the disadvantages of such a character. Obviously, Ryan has provided the proof that the concept works, and works great.
Sinker, I almost agree with you. It's that the original post had more of a "I'm not sure about this, how do I deal with it" feel to it. And it's lot easier to break apart something than it is to support it.It feels counter-intuitive to Dresden Files, but there is no reason it isn't completely viable. I just wanted to provide examples that bring to light the disadvantages of such a character. Obviously, Ryan has provided the proof that the concept works, and works great.
Ryan, I can think of an easy block against potions: wind. :) Can you imagine what would happen if that character threw that "grenade" and it flew back at him? :)
On that same vein I would suggest a high weapons skill and maybe the good arm stunt.Oh. Ha! I just realized the implication there. (yes, I'm having a brainless day, it *is* my day off :)) I'd love to see that happen, blow up the "grenade" in the "wizard"s face. "I hope your athletics was higher than the shifts you put into that :P"
Merrix Riordan
High Concept: Artificer
Trouble: Can't Fix Everything
Aspects:
Always Prepared
Magic Geek
Sorta a Wizard
My House, My Rules
Friends are Family
Skills:
Superb (+5):
Lore
Great (+4):
Conviction
Discipline
Good (+3):
Resources
Craftsmanship
Scholarship
Fair (+2):
Presence
Alertness
Endurance
Weapons
Average (+1):
Guns
Contacts
Stealth
Deceit
Empathy
Powers:
-3 Thaumaturgy (Speicialist: Crafting)
-1 The Sight
-0 Soulgaze
-0 Wizard's Constitution
-3 Refinement (1 Crafting Refinement, 2 focus items refinement)
Stunts:
-1 2 Seconds into the future (Lore to defend against physical attacks)
Current Refresh: 2 (10-8)
Crafting:
Items have 9 power, 3 frequency
Speicalist: +1 frequency
Refinement: +1 Power and Frequency
Focus Item: +2 Power and +1 Frequency
Items: 6 Focus Items
-3 Chisel of Enchanting: +2 Power and +1 Frequency (Crafting)
-0.5 Force Ring: Weapon:9 Attack, 3 uses
-0.5 Ring of Protection: Block 9 or Armor:4, 3 uses
-2 4 open Potion slots, 9 shifts, 3 uses each.
Equipment:
Apartment in the city with Wards, Superb Arcane Sanctum, Great Arcane Library, Good Scholarship Library.
8 Shift Wards + 4 Shift Veil, unlocked with the password that Merrix spoke last time he entered or left, and it lasts for a few years at a time. (25 Shifts).
Here's what we ended up with:It looks to me as though you should only have two potion slots (each potion slot takes one enchanted item slot or half a focus slot) or are short a Refinement (base two focus slots for Thaum, another two from Refine, but five focus slots worth of items). Also, the rules indicate that you would have a single workspace (library or sanctum) of average quality (resources-2) unless you spend refresh on it. Which seems pretty harsh to me. I'm a little unclear as to whether non-Wizards are allowed access to Soulgaze and Wizard's Constitution. I'd thought that Soulgaze in particular was a Wizard-only power, but the rules do appear to leave some wiggle room.
It looks to me as though you should only have two potion slots (each potion slot takes one enchanted item slot or half a focus slot) or are short a Refinement (base two focus slots for Thaum, another two from Refine, but five focus slots worth of items). Also, the rules indicate that you would have a single workspace (library or sanctum) of average quality (resources-2) unless you spend refresh on it. Which seems pretty harsh to me. I'm a little unclear as to whether non-Wizards are allowed access to Soulgaze and Wizard's Constitution. I'd thought that Soulgaze in particular was a Wizard-only power, but the rules do appear to leave some wiggle room.
Actually you're right. One focus item slot is four potion slots.
The "artificer" build would still *definitely* be a Wizard of the White Council.
@sinker, YS280, second paragraph of potions. One enchanted slot = 1 potion. But frequency could allow you to have multi-use potions.
I respectfully disagree. Don't get me wrong, it's nothing to do with power level of effects, bearing in mind that there's nothing that the Artificer can do that a full wizard can't with a degree more situational flexibility. I just think that proper wizards - ones with Evocation as well as Thaumaturgy, would likely regard the Artificer as a poor cousin - "Yes he's powerful in his own limited range, but without Evocation he's not a true Wizard". He might be a borderline case that some would support inclusion of, but I don't think the White Council as a whole would actually recognise him as a full Wizard - and if they did I'm fairly sure that he'd be snubbed by quite a few of its members.
I respectfully disagree. Don't get me wrong, it's nothing to do with power level of effects, bearing in mind that there's nothing that the Artificer can do that a full wizard can't with a degree more situational flexibility. I just think that proper wizards - ones with Evocation as well as Thaumaturgy, would likely regard the Artificer as a poor cousin - "Yes he's powerful in his own limited range, but without Evocation he's not a true Wizard". He might be a borderline case that some would support inclusion of, but I don't think the White Council as a whole would actually recognise him as a full Wizard - and if they did I'm fairly sure that he'd be snubbed by quite a few of its members.This. If you don't have Evocation, Thaumaturgy, and The Sight, then you're just a hedge mage. Possibly a powerful one, but not a true Wizard.
You got to have some serious magical chops before a soulgaze is an issue--and yes, it's one of the markers that the Council uses to see if you make the cut, though it's far from the only one. There are folks running around who can do it who aren't on the Council, but not many of them.
This. If you don't have Evocation, Thaumaturgy, and The Sight, then you're just a hedge mage. Possibly a powerful one, but not a true Wizard.
Oh, and you need Soulgaze to be considered a wizard. Per WoJ:
You mean other than saying "screw the stress and backlash, I'm going for 10 shifts"? :)
And saying that there's literally nothing a Wizard can do that this character can't is just not true. Try this:
Three practice targets, A, B, and C, are lined up in a row. You have 10 seconds to accomplish each task.
1. Cast a spell to gently light this candle on fire.
2. Cast a firebolt, bruning a hole through practice target A.
3. Cast a cone of fire, burning practice targets B and C.
4. Cast a spell to extinguish the candle with a gust of air without knocking it over.
5. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice target B without knocking over A and C.
6. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice targets A and C.
Dresden could do this, the sample Artificer could not (since it requires six different capabilities and is time-limited), even if you assumed that a potion could be created to duplicate these affects, which I'm not sure about.
Or try this: you are stripped of all possession and left otherwise unharmed in a room. Cast a spell of your choice within the next 10 seconds.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the concept is bad, or that it's under- or over-powered, or that it wouldn't be fun to play. But it is, as the aspect suggests, only "Sorta a Wizard", not truly one by White Council standards. To be a true Wizard you need to be capable of both Evocation and Thaumaturgy. (Though not only that.)
You are forgetting a few things;
1) While you may have 16 uses for your potions (4 each), you only have 4 different potions per session. That's it. 4 different effects in however many scenes can be played out per session. On the other hand, the evocation-wizard has 4 different effects per scene with his evocation. That's an order of magnitude more flexibility than you.
2) Regardless of what you do, enchanted item strength (potions included) is limited to twice your Lore, period. That's 10, 9 for you if you don't augment with declarations. A wizard's basic strength at this level can be 8 shifts for his spells but that's only his minimum. He can go up to 11 without any consequences. If required, he could go up to 15 with mild consequences.
3) Your attacks are based off discipline. That's a +4 attack. Against a ghoul, you have 50% chance of hitting and in an average roll you do 9 stress. A wizard's attack is his control roll, which is about +8, maybe +9 at this refresh. He hits 98% of the time and in an average roll he deals 13 stress. He is nearly 3 times more effective in every attack than you are.
Scene 1: Graveyard at midnight
The group (wizard, artificer, mortal investigator/scholar, white court socialite) has tracked down an evil cult in the general area and must stop a bad ritual from happening. The investigator begins tracking down the cults movements but soon the group is surrounded by a thick, vision-blocking unnatural mist.
Challenge 1: 12-shift thaumaturgy veil that makes it impossible to move on. The group is pressed for time. The graveyard is a place of much death and horrible emotions - using the sight will trigger +5 backlash each exchange.
Assuming the group manages to pierce the veil or otherwise go forth, the investigator leads you on until two vaguely humanoid lumps of earth rise to block the path.
Challenge 2: 2 golems. Supernatural Strength and Toughness, +5 fists, defend with endurance of +5 vs physical and mental attacks/maneuers. The investigator has effective lore of 7 due to various occultist stunts so quickly recognizes their weakness as crushing attacks.
Assuming the group manages to overcome the golems, the way opens up to a crypt defended by
Challenge 3: over a dozen thugs in covered positions on it. The graves in the ground prevent sprinting. The White Court socialite manages to convince several of them to leave without a fight (social combat) but 8 of them still remain on the crypt, 3 zones away.
Assuming the group gets rid of the mortal thugs, the trail leads to the crypt where there are energies gathering inside. Soon enough the big dark ritual migh be complete. But...
Scene 2: The Crypt
Challenge 1: The crypt is protected by a fairly powerful ward of 13 shifts. The group has only a few minutes to get in there and interrupt the ritual; they can either do something fast with the ward and use the rest of the time to catch their breath (healing stress) or they could attempt to do a big enough but slow group thaumaturgy to unravel the ward.
Assuming the group bypasses the ward, they are
Challenge 2: immediately attacked by 3 specters that appear in the same zone coming out of the floor. Supernatural Toughness, inhuman speed poltergeists with a touch that rips apart living things (claws), athletics 5+1 fists 3, endurance 3. They are weak to lightning and spirit attacks.
Big Fight: inside the crypt there are two toad demons summoned by 11-shift spells, an 11-shift ward and inside the ward there is a male and a female warlock working on their ritual. They still need 10 exchanges to finish it and summon the big demon. There is a minor leyline below the crypt - cutting off power with a magic circle is impossible.
Unlike a normal enchanted item, the effectYS280
strength of the potion may be boosted on the fly
or at the time it is created with the invocation
of aspects. Each invocation allows the potion’s
strength to be increased by 2.
1. One round maneuver thaumaturgy. There is no way this is more than 5 shifts.
2 and 3. Potion duplicates fire spell that can split shifts between targets. Each potion has 3 uses.
4. See #1.
5 and 6. 2nd potion, just like 2 and 3, but force instead of fire.
Actually Harry's escape potion specifically did work through a threshold. That's specifically what it was used for in the novel...
Actually Harry's escape potion specifically did work through a threshold. That's specifically what it was used for in the novel...
You mean other than saying "screw the stress and backlash, I'm going for 10 shifts"? :)
And saying that there's literally nothing a Wizard can do that this character can't is just not true. Try this:
Three practice targets, A, B, and C, are lined up in a row. You have 10 seconds to accomplish each task.
1. Cast a spell to gently light this candle on fire.
2. Cast a firebolt, bruning a hole through practice target A.
3. Cast a cone of fire, burning practice targets B and C.
4. Cast a spell to extinguish the candle with a gust of air without knocking it over.
5. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice target B without knocking over A and C.
6. Cast a spell to knock over the remains of practice targets A and C.
Dresden could do this, the sample Artificer could not (since it requires six different capabilities and is time-limited), even if you assumed that a potion could be created to duplicate these affects, which I'm not sure about.
Or try this: you are stripped of all possession and left otherwise unharmed in a room. Cast a spell of your choice within the next 10 seconds.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the concept is bad, or that it's under- or over-powered, or that it wouldn't be fun to play. But it is, as the aspect suggests, only "Sorta a Wizard", not truly one by White Council standards. To be a true Wizard you need to be capable of both Evocation and Thaumaturgy. (Though not only that.)
So, a focused artificer could craft and maintain several times the enchanted items of an average wizard at the same time just like a focused summoner could summon bigger and more creatures at the same time just like a master evoker could cast bigger evocations and control them better. The maintenance for the items would be the same time-wise even if the items are bigger and more numerous.
Actually, he can get 11 shifts on potions with a fate point. :)That's what I get for hoping you'd miss that. Point to you, though the Evoker could save the Fate for later, which is significant.
1. One round maneuver thaumaturgy. There is no way this is more than 5 shifts.Thaumaturgy takes a minimum of minutes to cast, per the rules. Time is sort of relative in DFRPG, but while it's possible for 10 seconds to be 1 exchange or 1 minute (or even a bit more) to be 1 exchange, it is not possible for 10 seconds to last several minutes. :p
1. One round maneuver thaumaturgy. There is no way this is more than 5 shifts.I agree with you that it's debatable whether or not the white council would let this character in, but if the tests you pose are the entry quals, he passes easier than Dresden does.[/quote]