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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Amseriah on October 12, 2010, 04:15:38 AM

Title: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Amseriah on October 12, 2010, 04:15:38 AM
Hi, I am one of the many new posters here, but I have made a character for a new DF game and I was wondering if people had any ideas for me.

Does anyone know what the Summer Knight actually does?  What types of "assignments" he/she might get?  We know that the Winter Knight occassionally acts as a hitman/assassin, would the Summer Knight do the same?

Does anyone know how old how old Fix is?  My character is going to be the Summer Knight in our campaign and is going to be 16 yrs old...he kind of got tricked into the position not really knowing what it truly entailed.  Do you guys think that 16 is too young?  I was imagining him growing into the role and playing out stumbling with his job a couple of times.

Do we have any other info on the Fae Knights not in "Summer Knight" and very minimally in "Small Favor"?
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: MijRai on October 12, 2010, 05:27:15 AM
Assassin, messenger, spy, executioner, consort, foot-rest, drink-fetcher, whatever-a-Queen-wants.

If a Queen wants it, s/he has to do it. If not of his/her own free will, they can (and will) force him/her to do it. Changes has some spoilery details about the Knights, if you wanted to know.

My one thing about the 16 year old Summer Knight is why was he chosen? What makes him a good candidate for a Knight? Latent magical talent? Mozart with a sword? Best bartender this side of the NeverNever? There has to be a reason he was chosen. Otherwise, Mab wouldn't bother waiting for Harry to be Winter Knight, she'd just pick up some stupid schmuck.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: adgramaine on October 12, 2010, 06:05:46 AM
Additionally, remember that the Knight's duties differ between the Lady, Queen, and Mother, so you're gonna be stretched thin at times. Though if I recall, the Knight is most often an escort for the Lady as she is closest to humanity.

Sixteen is a viable age. All the Changelings in SK were rather young, if memory serves. Like it was said before: the important question is "why?" And that "why" could very well be the over-all duty expected of the character.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Tsunami on October 12, 2010, 07:35:02 AM
Quote from: MijRai on October 12, 2010, 05:27:15 AM
If a Queen wants it, s/he has to do it. If not of his/her own free will, they can (and will) force him/her to do it.

Actually, She can't. That is the one thing she cannot do to her Knight. She can torture him, make him wish he was dead, do all manner of bad things, but she cannot take away his ability to choose.

The purpose of the Knights is to circumvent certain limitations the Queens have. They need them to do things they cannot do themselves. That means that the Knight has to choose to do those things.
Otherwise, if the queen were to take away the Knights will, he would be an extension of her will, and therefore bound by the same restrictions she is.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Amseriah on October 12, 2010, 12:20:29 PM
Thanks for the advice!  He was chosen because he is an artisan with a blade and also a musical genius, which is one of the reasons that Summer was looking at him.  It of course didn't hurt matters at all that he was in a teenaged romantic relationship with the Summer Lady...stupid kids...
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: MijRai on October 12, 2010, 04:24:24 PM
Quote from: Tsunami on October 12, 2010, 07:35:02 AM
Actually, She can't. That is the one thing she cannot do to her Knight. She can torture him, make him wish he was dead, do all manner of bad things, but she cannot take away his ability to choose.

The purpose of the Knights is to circumvent certain limitations the Queens have. They need them to do things they cannot do themselves. That means that the Knight has to choose to do those things.
Otherwise, if the queen were to take away the Knights will, he would be an extension of her will, and therefore bound by the same restrictions she is.

The Queens can and will force you to do something. The Knight agreed to take the power. Think of it like a loan. You promised to pay someone back, and they gave you the money. You still have to pay them back. In this case, the Winter Knight Mantle is the loan, and you have to do things for it. They can take the house you sleep in, the car you get around in (your body or your car, actually), everything, if you don't pay them back. You can't do a thing about it.

Even Ebenezar says they can force you to do something. What they can't do is make you choose to do it.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: sinker on October 12, 2010, 06:18:34 PM
What I got was that the knights are an extension of the queen's will in the mortal realm. The fae aren't supposed to be able to do anything to mortals against their will (they are however free to misinterpret deals made and freely mess with those who are indebted to them). The knight is the exception. Being mortal(ish) he/she can freely affect mortals that he/she so desires. I suppose even if the queens can't force their knight to do something they would likely choose a knight that has goals that are parallel to the courts. It would be really irksome if your only mortal champion balked at every task you gave him/her.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: adgramaine on October 13, 2010, 12:59:17 AM
Quote
It would be really irksome if your only mortal champion balked at every task you gave him/her.

That's specifically why I like the concept of multiple Knights. And I don't think they are chosen for having goals parallel, I think it is a bit more shifty than that. Think of it this way: Slate was an evil, evil bastard who had done too many Bad Things to count. Why would Mab choose him and then do a complete flip and want Harry so bad? Slate had the attitude to match Winter's Court, but Harry? He can't step foot onto a boat without seriously rocking it! And then there's his personal honor and willing obligation to family and friends... a truckload of proof that Harry might be too much of a hassle as WK.

And I don't buy the fact of Mab's desire simply because Harry was so frikkin' powerful. It has nothing to do with power. Mab herself said
(click to show/hide)

More food for thought along the 'why was X chosen' line.... I'll ponder it more once the pain meds wear off.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: ralexs1991 on October 13, 2010, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: adgramaine on October 13, 2010, 12:59:17 AM
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this just got my consiricy theory juices flowing maybe it has nothing to do with Harry and it's actually about Harry's blood line!!!!  :o  :o  :o
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: TheMouse on October 13, 2010, 02:28:47 AM
16 is definitely not too young. For much of human history, a 16 year old would have more or less been an adult. It's a relatively recent notion that such a person would be a child, unsuitable to serve such an office.

And I understand why, for the purposes of a series of novels, the position of Knight would be singular. From a game world perspective, it makes more sense for it to be more a category, something rare but not unique.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Wyrdrune on October 13, 2010, 06:20:54 AM
as i understand it: if you have a deal or agreement with the queens, they can force you to do anything as they have power over you
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, and this deal does not have to be about the knight's mantle.

imagine the power they would have over you for loaning that kind of power to you.

as a side note: i think i like the idea of multiple knights, at least one for the old world and one for the new world.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Tsunami on October 13, 2010, 07:29:18 AM
Quote from: Wyrdrune on October 13, 2010, 06:20:54 AM
as i understand it: if you have a deal or agreement with the queens, they can force you to do anything as they have power over you
(click to show/hide)
, and this deal does not have to be about the knight's mantle.

imagine the power they would have over you for loaning that kind of power to you.
Yeah, but if a queen controls someone like Mab did with Harry in SmF, she exercises her own will using the person as a tool. Which means that she is still limited in much the same way as if she'd acted herself.
The point is that she needs the Knight to perform tasks she cannot handle on her own. She needs the Knight to choose to do those things. She can order, persuade, coerce, intimidate, frighten, tempt or whatever the Knight to do what she wants. She can not however outright force him to do it against his will.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Falar on October 13, 2010, 10:16:38 AM
Quote from: adgramaine on October 13, 2010, 12:59:17 AM
Think of it this way: Slate was an evil, evil bastard who had done too many Bad Things to count. Why would Mab choose him and then do a complete flip and want Harry so bad?
Just a point of interest, Mab did not choose Slate, Maeve did. In fact, she said it was the last time she'd let Maeve hire the help.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Wyrdrune on October 14, 2010, 07:01:42 AM
Quote from: Tsunami on October 13, 2010, 07:29:18 AM
She can order, persuade, coerce, intimidate, frighten, tempt or whatever the Knight to do what she wants. She can not however outright force him to do it against his will.

that's what i meant. she can use her powers to persuade/frighten/torture/whatever the knight to do her bidding. the connection lasts as long as the mantle is with the character, which should be for life. and i think that the queen or the lady can be very convincing in a cruel way, if they want to - it would take a very strong character to deny them if you have a life full of torture or temptation (whatever works) waiting for you.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: EndlessKng on October 14, 2010, 11:29:25 AM
To go back to the original question for a moment, I think that, as has been said, the duties vary for the different queens.  However, a few things seem to make sense:
-The Knight acts as a bodyguard for the Lady when she needs one (possibly whenever she ventures into the mortal world).  We didn't see Slate with Maeve in PG because he was... not free to leave.  But after SK, we NEVER saw Lily without Fix (though we did once see the inverse).  Since the Lady is about as strong as a really powerful wizard, it's possible that the power of the Knight is placed with her more than with either of the other Queens (based on what we've seen and what Jim has said, NEITHER woman needs much in the way of bodyguards, even away from their centers of power).
-The Knight can be sent on mundane tasks.  Generally they won't be wasted on things like coffee fetching (unless it's a "If you're going there, can you get me one?"), but retrieval of items seems to be on the list.
-It's not outright stated, but thus far only the Queen seems to be able to ORDER a kill.  In SK, Maeve asked Slate to
(click to show/hide)
presumable for a ritual.  But why not kill her outright?  Just a theory, but maybe that's a Queen-only duty.
-Not sure what s/he does for the Mothers.  And honestly don't want to dwell on it too much...
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: aardvark on October 14, 2010, 11:29:45 AM
Quote from: Wyrdrune on October 13, 2010, 06:20:54 AM
as i understand it: if you have a deal or agreement with the queens, they can force you to do anything as they have power over you
(click to show/hide)
, and this deal does not have to be about the knight's mantle.
Not just deal or agreement give Mab this power it`s
(click to show/hide)
. Check YS274 "Oaths, Bonds and Bargains".
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: MWKilduff on October 14, 2010, 02:13:20 PM
I hate to throw this into the mix but there is a simple answer to some of this.  Fae are not bound by the rules of mortal wizards.  The Queens have been watching the bloodline of Dresden and know that it is not only powerful but also has a great portent to affect pivotal decisions in the timeline.  Something along the line of whoever wields the power of
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  Or, Jim is going to go a completely different direction.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Tsunami on October 14, 2010, 03:25:34 PM
Quote from: MWKilduff on October 14, 2010, 02:13:20 PM
I hate to throw this into the mix but there is a simple answer to some of this.  Fae are not bound by the rules of mortal wizards.  The Queens have been watching the bloodline of Dresden and know that it is not only powerful but also has a great portent to affect pivotal decisions in the timeline.  Something along the line of whoever wields the power of
(click to show/hide)
 Or, Jim is going to go a completely different direction.
(click to show/hide)
It might be just me being dense... but what do
(click to show/hide)
or mortal wizard rules, have to do with anything we discussed here?

Please enlighten me, because i really don't see any answer, simple or otherwise, to anything in this thread in that post.
I'm not trying to bash on someone here, I really just like to understand the reasoning.
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: ralexs1991 on October 14, 2010, 04:21:33 PM
Quote from: EndlessKng on October 14, 2010, 11:29:25 AM
-Not sure what s/he does for the Mothers.  And honestly don't want to dwell on it too much...

maybe he's theone that fetches the firewood and groceries for them  ;D
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: MWKilduff on October 14, 2010, 08:00:51 PM
Quote from: Tsunami on October 14, 2010, 03:25:34 PM
It might be just me being dense... but what do
(click to show/hide)
or mortal wizard rules, have to do with anything we discussed here?

Please enlighten me, because i really don't see any answer, simple or otherwise, to anything in this thread in that post.
I'm not trying to bash on someone here, I really just like to understand the reasoning.

I apologize.  I was trying to keep the response short. 
Bloodline destiny reveiled by looking into the future ie swimming against the flow of time would be reasons for both bloodlines and not having to adhere to the rules of a mortal spell caster.  Ease of transitioning the power and who makes the best knights are all valid things to consider while deciding why a character might be chosen. 
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: kihon on October 19, 2010, 07:19:47 PM
Personally I don't see many 16 year olds having that much in the way to offer the Lady of Summer for her to make him a Knight.  Yes - hundreds of years ago 16 year olds were young adults ---- but now days most are more children then adults ---- look at our culture.  It's in this "modern" culture that the Dresden files takes place, so take a look at your average sophmore in high school and tell me again why the Lady of Summer wants to give him a lifetime job.  It's all in the why?  And just being good at music, good with a sword, or having a crush really don't count as job qualifications that thousands would kill for (imo).
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: ralexs1991 on October 19, 2010, 07:34:20 PM
Quote from: kihon on October 19, 2010, 07:19:47 PM
Personally I don't see many 16 year olds having that much in the way to offer the Lady of Summer for her to make him a Knight.  Yes - hundreds of years ago 16 year olds were young adults ---- but now days most are more children then adults ---- look at our culture.  It's in this "modern" culture that the Dresden files takes place, so take a look at your average sophmore in high school and tell me again why the Lady of Summer wants to give him a lifetime job.  It's all in the why?  And just being good at music, good with a sword, or having a crush really don't count as job qualifications that thousands would kill for (imo).

make him from a non-western country where 16 is till the age of adulthood
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: Amseriah on October 20, 2010, 12:41:42 PM
Sorry, this is going to be a very short reply...in response to Kihon: 

The reason that I think that she would pick a 16 yr old is that at his age he would tend to naturally exemplify the ideals of the Summer Court.  When you are younger you tend to be more idealistic, have more heroic tendencies, and just more full of life.  Also a younger person would be very easy to "train" so that they would naturally agree with the agendas of your court.  Much like how it is much easier to get a younger person into a cult than it is an adult.  This would be preferable to a jaded 35 yr old because there would be far less of a chance of them fighting your every "suggestion", therefore making it a much better working relationship. 
Title: Re: Summer Knight questions...
Post by: babel2uk on October 20, 2010, 02:10:22 PM
Alternatively maybe she's seen something of the future and there's a thing that she needs him specifically to do. Maybe he wasn't picked at age 16, maybe she's been watching him since birth, waiting for him to grow old enough to hold the power. Faeries being faeries it may be that the thing she needs him to do is something perfectly innocuous, it just has to be him specifically that does it, or it could be that she's using him to keep the power from being reassigned by her mother (maybe there's a special someone that the Queen want's to name asKnight, but the Lady doesn't like). At that point you've got the Knight being assigned really dangerous tasks by the Queen in an attempt to get him killed (because she can't be seen to do it herself, after all , he seems loyal to the court), and the Lady trying to keep him out of harms way by putting him in more low threat diplomatic situations (which may inevitably turn out to be more complicated than they appear).