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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: cetra02 on October 01, 2010, 05:43:41 AM

Title: Living Circle
Post by: cetra02 on October 01, 2010, 05:43:41 AM

Would it be possible to use a group of people standing in a circle holding hands as a Thaumaturgy Circle?  I was thinking using the lowest Conviction rating out of the lot as the strength.  Thoughts?

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: Haru on October 01, 2010, 08:59:25 AM

You can absolutely do that, in fact you can have the strongest caster of them lead the ritual and everyone of the rest put a AIDED BY XYZ aspect on the caster to reflect that.

I it is a praying circle you want to use as a block against an unholy intruder, take the conviction of the leader (probably a priest or some other kind of true believer) and use his conviction plus again the AIDED aspects to create a threshold. You could either work it as a thaumaturgy ritual, rolling a few times and be done once the threshold is established, or (probably more dramatic) as an evocation, having to refresh the block every few exchanges. If you want to create a safe environment out of a fight, go with the first, if you have a group of people you want to protect until help arrives or the help is there, but the enemy would still rather bash the innocent, go with the latter. Both times I would use conviction to create a block, the lasting one would use shifts to increase the duration, the short hand one would have to be set up once and be refreshed by casting it again while it is still up and running, putting all those shifts in duration.

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: babel2uk on October 01, 2010, 09:29:39 AM

I believe the idea of aiding a caster is covered by the Using Help section on page 272 of the rulebook. I'd be wary of allowing the 'Aided By' aspect use, unless you're using that as shorthand for the person performing a Declaration as part of the ritual preparation - but then as a GM I'd want to know what they're actually doing to help with the prep, and require a roll on the appropriate skill.

In short, there's nothing stopping you using a ring of people as your circle. They can only aid in the preparation or take backlash if they have no magical ability. If they have the Ritual (or Thaumaturgy) ability they can make rolls like the caster and add power into the spell in the same way the caster does, with the same risks as far as failure go.

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: Lanir on October 01, 2010, 09:49:53 AM

I wouldn't want to use that for summoning/binding. Usually a bound critter can't cheaply reach out and mess up a circle but I'd imagine they could do something unpleasant to a few people trying to get uppity and hold hands for their circle. It would also take some pretty sizable cojones to stand there just holding hands and channeling that kumbaya feeling with a slavering demon leering at you from an inch away.

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: Belial666 on October 01, 2010, 11:13:48 AM

Counting the circle as a threshold of a level equal to the highest conviction plus aided aspects could easily push it beyond legendary and that would be wrong.


Consider that a major church or monastery that is old and holy would be Epic or Legendary threshold; having a bunch of people form a quick circle be the same would be wrong.

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: babel2uk on October 01, 2010, 11:40:20 AM

Actually - re-reading the rules - the way summoning works is by effectively making the summoning circle into a Ward (it explicitly states this in the description of summoning) so having a level higher that Legendary is actually fairly much common practice (pages 272 and 273), but the important distiction is that it is a Ward not a Threshold.  The conviction etc of the ritual participants has no real effect on the strength of the circle as a container for a demon, the caster (with help from any participants who can do so) sets the level of that ward when they summon the demon into the circle (the guideline in the book is a minimum complexity of 10). On it's own a circle has no threshold but what the caster gives it (basically by working it as a Ward).

Edit: I'm not sure that it would work as a prayer circle though, like Belial666 (and here was I beginning to think we weren't going to see eye to eye on anything! :o  ;D) I'm extremely dubious about an automatic Threshold rating for such a purpose. In fact I think I'd go as far as to say that it just wouldn't work. You could physically block a demon with a member of the faithful using Holy Touch (compelling their High Concept to force them to disregard the idea of a physical attack), or you could reinforce an existing threshold using Bless this House - but that power specifies that you need something to work with in the first place. I think the best idea for a Prayer Circle type effect (if that's what the original poster intended) is to look at a spectacular use of Righteousness (Desperate Hour) using the circle as a powerful focal point. I Guess you could kind of invert the effect into the circle of Prayer to eliminate or drive off a powerful demon, but that would generally be a scenario finale type event rather than a day to day one.

That said, if you don't think it would make the Faithfull ludicrously overpowered (bearing in mind you'd effectively be giving them the equivalent of a thematic Ritual power at no extra cost to any abilities they already have) then there's nothing stopping you from house-ruling it.

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on October 01, 2010, 02:41:50 PM

regarding the circle-of-praying-faithful, I'd just have the highest conviction of the group roll a Declaration to place the "circle of faith" aspect on the scene, and then if they were to try to keep out a demon or vampire or the like, I'd just have them spend a fate point to Compel the nasty on that aspect, much like Vampires can be Compelled by symbols of faith.

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: Becq on October 01, 2010, 05:59:56 PM

First, my understanding of the terminology used is that a Threshold refers to a passively generated block against the supernatural, such as those that 'naturally' occur around homes and places of worship.  A Ward, on the other hand, is actively and deliberately put into place, typically through a spell.  Threshold build over time but without any special action taken (other than by making the place special by living or worshipping in it) and tends to be very durable.  Wards are erected quickly (at either evocation or Thaumaturgical speeds) but dissipate quickly, as well (though they can be sustained by continued channeling of energy into them).  Mechanically, though, they are very similar.

As to the circle, I believe I recall it stated in the series that the circle is only a crutch for the wizard, and is not truly necessary.  The wizard could, if they were disciplined enough, create a circle purely in their own mind, and use that for their Thaumaturgy.  That said, a physical representation of the circle makes the process easier, and gives the wizard one less thing they have to hold in their mind.  The quality of the circle (chalk outline vs. perfectly inked circle on a smooth gym floor vs. precision silver circle inlaid into a floor) makes the visualization easier on the wizard.  In game mechanics, I believe that the rating of the circle provides a limit to the skill level that can be used to make Declarations involving the benefit provided by the workspace.

So while a caster could use a circle of people as an anchor for his visualization, I would call it a barely adequate circle, regardless of the Convictions of the participants.  Basically, the caster in this case is going to have to do without circle-based Declarations, and is going to have to find another way to meet the complexity requirement of the spell.  Of course, the particpants *could* potentially help with that part, for example by providing energy (by volunteering Consequences) or by making control rolls (if they have to appropriate power) to build up the energy (YS272).

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: Richard_Chilton on October 01, 2010, 06:55:10 PM

Here's a spoiler for a book not covered by the game.  I'll use the spoiler tag, and if you don't want to know what happens in one of the later two books (Turn Coat or Changes - I won't say which) then don't move your mouse over the blacked out stuff:

(click to show/hide)

You don't need a circle for a magic circle.  It's true - if you don't have time to make a circle you can mentally picture one and it can work.  It won't be as good as a real one, but all magic comes from the mind and soul with the tools there to help the wizard focus.  If you are in dire straights you can skip those tools and do it with raw intent.  In game terms I'd say it involves taking mental stress or consequences to do it this way - say maybe a ward strength linked to the level of mental consequence you're taking.

Yes, that does seem to go again the rules of the game, but Butcher isn't constrained by the game's magic system.  It was cool, "this has to work" move and Dresden went with it.

Richard

Title: Re: Living Circle
Post by: babel2uk on October 01, 2010, 07:39:02 PM

Something similar occurs in Fool Moon:

(click to show/hide)

Harry uses the circle formed by spinning his mother's silver pentacle around his head on the chain in order to cast a spell in the showdown with the Loup Garou