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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: TheMouse on September 26, 2010, 02:49:16 AM

Title: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: TheMouse on September 26, 2010, 02:49:16 AM
I've been playing around with a couple ideas for powers based on teleportation. I'm just not sure how much Refresh they should cost.

The easiest one is teleportation as a bonus to dodge things. This one is just a normal bonus based Stunt with supernatural spray paint. It gives a bonus to the dodge trapping of Athletics, the cost of which depends on the bonus.

A slightly more difficult one allows the character to extend its movement action. As a free action move, say, two zones. Add two zones to supplemental movement and sprints. Here's the part that's giving me trouble: Ignore all border ratings between zones, because you don't actually need to pass through them. However, if you cross over a threshold, treat it as a border rating you cannot ignore. Does that sound too worthwhile for 2 points? Good for 3?

Now we move out of the realm of tactical combat movement style powers. How about a power that can move you a mile? 10 miles? 50? It would most likely be a full action, probably with some roll to place yourself. It should probably cost some Stress to use. Other than that, I'm pretty lost on how much that should cost.

Thoughts? Opinions? Monkeys?
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on September 26, 2010, 04:35:08 AM
low-level teleportation with the abilities you describe could probably be represented by the inhuman-supernatural-mythic speed powers.  Remove the bonus to Initiative and grant another boon of similar power that suits teleportation, and you're set. 

long-range transport is a different animal entirely; I'd need to put more thought to it.
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: Belial666 on September 26, 2010, 10:09:12 AM
Yeah, mythic speed that gives no initiative/stealth/flat athletics bonus but instead ignores borders and gives dodge is about right.


Long-range teleport is more complicated in the Dresdenverse. First, you need serious magic for it. Secondly, the Veil has a strength of (usually) Submerged. And then you need to actually walk the distance in the Nevernever.

I once did a teleportation item for an artificer of mine. It actually was 2 items; one 10 shift item that momentarily opened up 2 gateways - one to enter the Nevernever and one to exit - and another item to instantly move you 10 zones that was "defensive" and keyed to work when you activated the first. So you'd open the entry Gateway, the move item would move you through the distance in the Nevernever, and then you'd open the exit -- all in the same action. Considering that 1 mile (30 minutes) of walking or so takes you from Chicago to Endinburg, the equivalent of 4 minutes of walking (200+ meters or 10 zones) would take you a good 500 miles in the real world.


So, what does it cost to get such a teleport item?

Lore of 5, ritual crafting, +5 crafting power and +5 crafting frequency (via foci or specializations). Use 2 of your enchanted item slots for that.
So for the cost of 7 refresh, you get teleportation 6 times per day - or unlimited, if you are willing to pay 2 mental stress per use.

If you only want teleportation and not crafting other items, it costs 1 less refresh cause your foci are specialized and you get 12 uses/day (because you use all items for teleport)
If you add the entire thing into an item of Power, you can limit its cost by another 2, for a total of only 4 refresh.



And for that 6 or 4 refresh, you don't only use it via teleport. The items will be defensive. Someone try to whack you? You use the short-range teleport to move 10 zones away instantly. Someone try to blast you with magic? Open up a gateway between them and you just long enough for the gateway to "absorb" the attack and divert it to the Nevernever.
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: babel2uk on September 26, 2010, 07:31:06 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on September 26, 2010, 10:09:12 AM
Considering that 1 mile (30 minutes) of walking or so takes you from Chicago to Endinburg, the equivalent of 4 minutes of walking (200+ meters or 10 zones) would take you a good 500 miles in the real world.

Not necessarily. The route is a massively important factor. You can't just go into the Never Never at a random point walk 200 meters and exit, and expect that to get you anywhere helpful or indeed surviveable, that's assuming the Never Never location isn't massively hostile. That's why knowledge of the Ways is so important, and why Harry doesn't just go off exploring. As far as I can tell from the novels you could walk for days in a given direction in the Never Never and come out into the real world two steps away from where you started, or take three steps and come out 4,000 miles away (or indeed much, much further). Long range teleportation using the Never Never is probably not a feasible thing, it would be way too random in it's results. If that's what you want then go for it, but if you want manageable, predictable teleportation you probably want to stick with short range stuff using the suggestions already outlined based on mythic speed.
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 26, 2010, 07:40:00 PM
Which is why you would want to add World Walker as a prereq before someone could use that item.

Richard
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: babel2uk on September 26, 2010, 08:43:58 PM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on September 26, 2010, 07:40:00 PM
Which is why you would want to add World Walker as a prereq before someone could use that item.

Richard

I'd respectfully disagree. World Walker gives a slight bonus to survival and lore checks concerning the Never Never, otherwise it just allows you to open rifts to and from, and sense where the membrane is thin enough to do so. While I don't agree that the teleporter enchanted item should work as described with any sort of predictable exit point, what your suggesting is the equivalent of saying that a character who possesses a wand that generates a fireball effect, should have to buy Channelling (Pyromancy) in order to use the wand. If the item already creates a given effect you shouldn't have to also buy a Power that creates mostly the same effect.
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: Belial666 on September 26, 2010, 09:09:25 PM
Well, you'd already have a Lore of 4 or 5 so knowing routes should be easy. In addition, get Occultist for +1 Lore for magical travel, +2 for finding ways within the Nevernever. With an effective Lore of Epic for the purposes of knowing the ways, you should pretty much know most of them.

So, with 6 refresh for the teleporting items (or an equivalent power), plus 1 refresh for Occultist, you are set. Add guns of 5 and a big@$$ elephant gun with iron slugs plus a tactical suit for protection.



Offense you'd use that Elephant Gun with the one-shot-elephant-kill slugs (weapon 4), defense you can use short-range or long-range teleportation and you can travel around the world too.
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: TheMouse on September 26, 2010, 11:35:11 PM
I'm actually not terribly interested in travel via the Nevernever. I don't really consider that to be a form of teleportation.

I'm not totally sure that the various Speed powers are the best model. Getting rid of the initiative bonus and Athletics bonus doesn't seem to balance against ignoring borders between zones. It seems like trading away a lot for a little in return. I'll have to think about it.
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: Lanir on September 26, 2010, 11:58:00 PM
Being able to teleport in a way that allows movement on a greater scale than the various Speed powers might end up feeling a bit broken. If you can blip around the city relatively freely you can pull off all sorts of hairy tricks. Especially if you put some forethought into where various useful items are or assembling a bunch of equipment packs for various emergencies. If it's an NPC who's at all tough he gets a near deus ex machina power of escape. If it's a PC, he can pull off a fair escape more easily than the rest of the group and isn't pinned down by where in the city he's at. This can make it a bit too easy for one character to run off and have side scenes going while everyone else is stuck in another part of the city for narrative reasons.

All in all it might be fine. But it has more potential to be a nuisance to run for or play around than most existing powers so you'll probably need to introduce either sharp limits, a pretty hefty cost per usage or both. You'll also want to define pretty clearly what you want it to do because teleportation powers have been used to justify all manner of unusual tricks in comics and other forms of fiction. The "what happens if I teleport inside a solid rock" deal is only the beginning (and quickly leads to "what happens if I teleport this roofing nail inside that guy I don't like over there). :)
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: Wyrdrune on September 27, 2010, 06:25:34 AM
personally i feel teleportation on a small scale - for use in combat - unbalances the game. i will not have that in my game. (but if you like to have it, it's your game, just stating my opinion here).

but i will be allowing large scale teleportation in my world/game. my players do not have attained it yet, and still may need some time, but i am thinking of sponsored magic, and sponsor could be
(click to show/hide)
legba, lord of the crossroads, or a similar deity/loa/whatever.

and they won't be bothered for a 'port down the block.
Title: Re: Refresh cost for teleportation
Post by: babel2uk on September 27, 2010, 08:02:19 AM
Quote from: TheMouse on September 26, 2010, 11:35:11 PM
I'm not totally sure that the various Speed powers are the best model. Getting rid of the initiative bonus and Athletics bonus doesn't seem to balance against ignoring borders between zones. It seems like trading away a lot for a little in return. I'll have to think about it.

Um, you're not just ignoring boundaries in the system sense, you're able to move between zones that would be impossible even for someone with the athletics and initiative bonus. The number of zones is just a rough idea of distance, and you don't have to worry about obstacles in the intervening space at all. The speed powers are absolutely the best model for short range teleportation. I don't see how being able to teleport should automatically qualify you to act faster in combat, or perform athletic tasks any easier - where I can with mythic speed - though I can see a case for a dodge bonus.

As a suggestion, just up the number of zones permitted a little to maybe 5, and give the character a +2 bonus to dodge rolls - representing a flickering in and out in one place. I'd also be inclined to put some sort of stress cost per use in there (maybe similar to Evocation with the cost rising for every zone crossed above your Discipline, or for any extra passengers carried - it just stops it being grotesquely overpowered if used in combat), or as another option you could require that the teleporter has either been where they are going to 'port to, or requires a moment of concentration (and a discipline or conviction roll) in order to teleport wherever they are going. If you have the limit of only being able to teleport to somewhere they have already been (unless it's line of sight), I'd be inclined to allow the distance permitted to increase.