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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Brodie on August 15, 2010, 04:17:39 AM

Title: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Brodie on August 15, 2010, 04:17:39 AM: You'll have to forgive me if this has been brought up and discussed before (and I'd appreciate a link to the thread), but does anyone have any idea if it's possible to play a character that has the loup-garou curse?

According to the books, the loup-garou has a -21 refresh cost. Totally understandable as the creature is sickeningly powerful. However, the loup-garou is a demon and when the demon's out to play, the cursed human can't do anything (much less remember anything). It has its own skills, talents, powers, and whatnot, but it's not that particular human in possession of all those things.

I can understand werewolf characters of the Alpha variety having - in human form - the skills they have as a wolf. They had to learn those things and they retain their minds from one form to the other. But that doesn't apply to the loup-garou.

The little stat blurb for Harley MacFinn just tells the reader to see the loup-garou entry even though, for all intents and purposes, he's a completely separate character. A loup - being a monster/npc - falls under the GM's domain. But someone like Harley could easily be a playable character, albeit a supremely unfortunately cursed PC.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Brodie on August 15, 2010, 06:26:18 PM: Anyone?
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: wyvern on August 15, 2010, 07:02:38 PM: Personally, I don't see anything in the system that would disallow such a character... But I'd be extremely wary of letting one into any game I had anything to do with; whether you controlled the loup or not, it would casually overshadow other PCs - not to mention run a high risk of outright killing them. Much like a Red Court Infected, such a character could not come to a happy end - only the loup would be ten times worse.

So, if you and your gaming group thinks this is ok, have fun with it. I'll be hiding somewhere over there until the inevitable chaos and destruction blows over.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on August 15, 2010, 07:52:54 PM: I don't see any real problem with it. The character would just be a pure mortal with the Trouble, "I'm a Loup Garou." Which you could invoke, anytime you plan a story around the full moon, to turn him into a villain when the sun goes down.
The Loup Garou part of him stands no chance of being a boon to the group (except possibly incidentally, by killing one of their enemies), as the Loup Garou is a merciless monster that kills anything it comes across, so I wouldn't count it in anyway as part of the actual player character...Its only brings problems, not powers, so theres no reason to charge the player for it. Basically hes just a human that loses his character for 3 nights out of the month, and causes a murderous monster to appear in the proximity of his friends.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Morgan on August 15, 2010, 07:58:26 PM: It's a difficult call to say whether or not to allow it, you are taking a really big hit for next to no benefit. A Loup-Garou cannot be controlled, even aiming it in a general direction takes a lot of effort. Also such a character essentially takes himself out of play for 3 days a month if he is lucky enough to have a circle or cage to lock himself in, and becomes a mass murderer every month if he doesn't. The White Council would probably put them on some sort of hit list and come gunning for them the moment the found out about their curse. Really the whole set up is just begging your GM to compel your curse nearly non stop. All those problems for what? Maybe the Echoes of the Beast Power if you're lucky.

That all being said cursed heroes are a staple of the genre and as a character concept it's totally viable, it's just that something as powerful and more importantly as uncontrollable as a Loup-Garou is probably more trouble than it's worth. Mechanically something closer to a Hexenwulf in the form of a curse might work better. Make a normal werewolf and add a Demonic Co-Pilot to it, which would make for a fun Trouble as the demon is constantly trying to break free. Then bump the powers to higher levels (and out of PC territory) during the full moon if you still want to have that aspect of the character.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Brodie on August 16, 2010, 03:31:08 AM: Well, the question isn't really 'should or shouldn't allow it?' The question is 'how to make it possible?'

I think it would make for a compelling PC, if the curse on him has a built-in resolution the player could work towards. MacFinn's curse is supposed to plague his bloodline until the end times. What's to say that all loup-garou cursed would have the same stipulation?

Would the PC gain anything from being cursed, or would he be a pure mortal with a curse?
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Morgan on August 16, 2010, 05:13:36 AM: Quote from: Brodie on August 16, 2010, 03:31:08 AM
Well, the question isn't really 'should or shouldn't allow it?' The question is 'how to make it possible?'

I think it would make for a compelling PC, if the curse on him has a built-in resolution the player could work towards. MacFinn's curse is supposed to plague his bloodline until the end times. What's to say that all loup-garou cursed would have the same stipulation?

Would the PC gain anything from being cursed, or would he be a pure mortal with a curse?

How to make it possible, first off both your High Concept and probably your Trouble should reflect the character's Loup-Garou nature and the Curse the character is under.

A PC would only gain something from being cursed if you bought some sort of Power with your refresh. And I'd say that any Powers you want to be able to use in your human form should probably come out of the starting Refresh for your campaign level. I'd model the Curse by making a normal character and then having your character turn into an NPC monster with Loup-Garou powers during the full moon nights. Now even though you don't have access to most of the Loup-Garou powers most of the time you are still deep in metaphysical hock after having to buying all those Loup-Garou powers, so I'd say that being a Pure Mortal is right out. And about the only Power that might be available to the Loup-Garou in his human form is Echoes of the Beast.

But something like the old Marvel Comics Werewolf By Night character could be easily achieved by buying a suite of standard werewolf powers with your starting refresh that the character has access to normally, and then having the uncontrollable cursed Loup-Garou powers kick in on the full moon nights. You could even spice things up by adding Demonic Co-Pilot or maybe even a Feeding Dependency to your non Loup werewolf form to show that the power is coming from a dark and evil curse.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: JosephKell on August 16, 2010, 05:56:47 AM: It is already possible. It is a -21 Refresh character. So if you are playing a 22 Refresh game, you are good to go.

Or you could make a "poor man's" Loup-Garou. Downgrade Strength, Speed, and Recovery to Inhuman (now it is -15, 6 more to go). Change Physical Immunity to Inhuman Toughness and that is now -9 (or find a way to increase the catch value by 6 to a total of +8).
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Lanir on August 16, 2010, 06:13:34 AM: Umm... The easiest way to do this by far is to go for something a lot closer to the Lycanthrope template. Or even just use that one. It may or may not involve a mystical curse but you can still have control issues if you choose your Aspects appropriately.

But you don't want that, you want a real monster that can eat the campaign you're in if it gets loose. Which... I guess I have to ask what the goal is of that. If it's to add in the possibility that the players in general and you in specific can manage to wreck everything with a wrong move, then that's one way of adding tension. If your whole group is of like mind on that, you're good to go. Frankly I'd say just pay for the Echoes of the Beast and possibly a Supernatural Sense for the moon that should probably double as a rough time sense so it doesn't seem like a waste of a refresh. I would state consider the loup-garou basically a different character and stat up the curse as something inflicted upon you that just happens to have debatably positive side effects. Like so:

+0 Cursed With Awesome --> And the flavor of the month is: Loup-garou!

If you actually go through with this, don't make "I'm a loup-garou" your Trouble. It makes for an almost useless Aspect. An Aspect about being tormented by the idea that you've killed (possibly several) someone(s) will work much better. Positively it's a flavor of "Well if I've been through this, then a lot of other things just won't seem to have as big of an impact." Negatively it's a way to make you worry or go on an all expenses paid guilt vacation when something makes you remember a scene where you woke up unsure of what you may have done.

And one last idea here. Assuming you get your GMs okay to run with this and the main purpose is not to actually blow up the campaign but just add drama by making it a possibility, I'm kind of wondering what the other characters will be like. If none of them have zombie dragon skeletons in their closets like you do, then you kind of owe them some consideration. You playing a character you think is cool doesn't necessarily do much for them. Since you're a ticking time bomb (and likely a worse adversary than anything your GM will throw at your group), it might be a good idea to work with them or the GM to do something nice for the other players.

And just to be clear, I still really recommend the Lycanthrope instead. Much better idea, even has the same lunar loopiness.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Todjaeger on August 16, 2010, 07:02:16 AM: Quote from: Brodie on August 16, 2010, 03:31:08 AM
Well, the question isn't really 'should or shouldn't allow it?' The question is 'how to make it possible?'

I think it would make for a compelling PC, if the curse on him has a built-in resolution the player could work towards. MacFinn's curse is supposed to plague his bloodline until the end times. What's to say that all loup-garou cursed would have the same stipulation?

Would the PC gain anything from being cursed, or would he be a pure mortal with a curse?

Honestly, I can't really see how a loup-garou would make for a good (player) character. In OW28, loup-garoux are generally considered either at the low end of the supernatural heavyweight scale, or on the high end of the middleweights. A louper is Refresh -21, and when the character hasn't changed into the loup garou, they would have access to Echoes of the Beast, perhaps. Otherwise the character is dominated by the involuntary change.

Now, if a character was cursed to become a loup-garou during the full moon, the question needs to be asked and answered how the character got cursed. Given that the being cursing someone to become a loup garou has to be a supernatural heavyweight (examples from Fool Moon as major heavyweight sorceror, demon lord or one of the Faerie Queens), then either the character inherited the curse via bloodline like in Fool Moon, or the character for some reason came to the attention of one of the previously mentioned types/groups and they chose to curse the character. Unless it is a bloodline curse, I can't see any real good reason for the curse to happen to a character.

As for how such a character would fit into a group, I suspect that they wouldn't, at least, not well. The character is extremely powerful (and expensive) but of virtually no practical use to a group, since the times they are most powerful, they have no control over the character's actions and aren't able to direct the character's activities. It might make good storytelling, but I can't see a way that it would be enjoyable for a player to run for very long.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: JesterOC on August 16, 2010, 08:09:53 AM: Just make a normal character for your power level, but when he changes, he becomes an NPC for the other players to deal with. When (if) he survives, the player gets him back.

In other words yes I agree with you, I think it is possible. It may not be fun because when the blank hits the fan, the player with the most interest in the fight can't do anything, but it seems possible.

JesterOC
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: FangGrip on August 16, 2010, 02:41:56 PM: Quote from: Morgan on August 16, 2010, 05:13:36 AM
How to make it possible, first off both your High Concept and probably your Trouble should reflect the character's Loup-Garou nature and the Curse the character is under.

A PC would only gain something from being cursed if you bought some sort of Power with your refresh. And I'd say that any Powers you want to be able to use in your human form should probably come out of the starting Refresh for your campaign level. I'd model the Curse by making a normal character and then having your character turn into an NPC monster with Loup-Garou powers during the full moon nights. Now even though you don't have access to most of the Loup-Garou powers most of the time you are still deep in metaphysical hock after having to buying all those Loup-Garou powers, so I'd say that being a Pure Mortal is right out. And about the only Power that might be available to the Loup-Garou in his human form is Echoes of the Beast.

I have to agree with Morgan completely. That way you have the flavor of what you want but not the unbalancing issues of the massive amount of power compared to the other PCs. Just accept that this PC will probably have to die sooner or later.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Jaroslav on August 16, 2010, 03:17:51 PM: I have to go with Nyarlathotep on this. Just make your character a pure mortal who's trouble is that they are a loup garou. Because if your never going to be able to use you powers in a way that is dependably safe, why should you have to pay for them? And I think a character like this is really interesting. Trying to balance a normal life while being cursed could lead to some fun role play.

If you need some inspiration, look at George on Being Human (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_Human_%28TV_series%29). He's an awesome example of this idea in action.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on August 17, 2010, 12:05:51 AM: Quote from: Jaroslav on August 16, 2010, 03:17:51 PM
Because if your never going to be able to use you powers in a way that is dependably safe, why should you have to pay for them?
Even more than that, you only have access to those powers when you are an NPC, and the enemy of the party (and anything else that crosses your path). A Loup Garou is a creature of pure, unchained rage and destruction. When in Wolf form, they attack anything hunt and kill anything they come across. They can't be reasoned, they can't be calmed down, and they can't be stopped by anything but inherited silver, or a special magic circle made to hold their kind (Harley broke out of a police holding cell with no trouble at all).
So. Technically speaking, the Loup Garou character doesn't have any of those powers. They belong to an evil monster that plagues the group. A monster that is only there in the first place because one character caused him to be (thus my logic of it being that characters trouble aspect).
But yeah, that was my basic point. If you don't have those powers, and they can only be used to hurt the group, you shouldn't have to pay for them. So, I'd just call it a trouble aspect, and work out the details with the PC, then have them make up their character normally. I guess there's really no reason why he couldn't be a wizard, or even a knight of the cross by day, I was only thinking pure mortal, because if a PC wanted to be, say a WCV or Red Court infected Loup Garou... That would be too much.
George from Being Human is a good example. Also the Remake of the Wolfman has some good ideas.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: JosephKell on August 17, 2010, 03:13:51 AM: Quote from: Jaroslav on August 16, 2010, 03:17:51 PM
Because if your never going to be able to use you powers in a way that is dependably safe, why should you have to pay for them?
"Because you don't put a bomb on stage unless you plan to have an explosion." That is a quote from an interview about Angels and Demons (the film). So why should anyone want to play a Loup-Garou if they will never let their beast run wild?

But the fact is, that such a character is definitely evil (or just psychotic) if the he or she doesn't have an attitude of "I can't be allowed out during my time of the month." For only a horrible (or insane) person would risk the safety of innocent people by being out near the full moon.

So basically your character is missing anytime the full moon is up. And what is the point of playing a Loup-Garou character unless it will come up.

I would allow a Loup-Garou PC to be controlled by the player, but there would be compels to pursue the rage. If there is an enemy around (and the guy was conscious of that before turning) I would allow target priority, but otherwise, they try to rip apart whatever is close (or noisy).
Quote
And I think a character like this is really interesting. Trying to balance a normal life while being cursed could lead to some fun role play.
"Interesting" isn't the same as "Playable."

Loup-Garou PCs (like "evil PCs") are "interesting" to play but annoying as hell to everyone else.

There are many other ways to play a "tortured" (emo) characters in DFrpg: Red Court Infected, White Court Vampires, Emissaries of Power, and even Changelings (to name a few). And none of them are time bombs (well I guess Red Court Infected could be... but if they slip they are either an NPC or killed off anyway).

But it doesn't matter, by the rules as written, a Loup-Garou is a -21 refresh character. At 21 refresh, I think the rest of the party can restraint the character if necessary.

Figure a Superb Might for an effective Legendary + 5 (13) Might for Lifting and Breaking. I think a -21 Refresh Wizard can throw up an 18 shift block with Thaumaturgy (might need more though to protect against fate points).
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on August 18, 2010, 01:26:13 AM: I agree with the sentiment that you wouldn't play a Loup Garou unless you plan on it getting out at some point (though I disagree with anything even remotely connected with Dan Brown being cited as a resource for anything), but that is an entirely different issue from the implication that, when that happens it will be beneficial to the group.
You make up a Loup Garou character with the understanding that, yes. at some point your precautions are going to fail, and the Loup Garou is going to run rampant for a night. However, when that occurs it will be of no benefit and massive detriment to the party (and thus a trouble compel). It has no real possibility of ever being a good thing for anyone involved that the beast gets free, and the player isn't in control of the beasts actions. So its not the players powers its really only the players trouble aspect (and maybe a story complication for the days that that player cant make it).
The Loup Garou is a completely separate character, that brings nothing but trouble to the party. To force the character to pay for the Beasts powers is exactly the same as forcing any player with an enemy inherent to his trouble aspect to buy that enemies powers with his own refresh. Your making a player pay his own points, for how much his enemy is going to screw him over. Its double taxation, and its not fair (unless you make everyone do it for all their enemies).
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: JosephKell on August 18, 2010, 05:00:47 AM: Too open to abuse to be free. Maybe the Human Form should be giving a lot more of a discount, but being able to turn into a nearly unstoppable juggernaut ("I'm the Loup-Garou, *****!" No? Well I laughed when they used the original meme in X3) of teeth and claws is way too good.

Really need to take out a bad guy? Go get captured a few hours before moon rise on a full moon night.

And compels aren't supposed to kill the party or drive home values into the ground (can you imagine the insurance premium for loup-garou home owners?).

Compels are like, "You would've succeeded on that roll, but it would've just one shot the conflict, would you like a free fate point in exchange for having it not turn out right?"
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Jaroslav on August 18, 2010, 07:54:22 AM: Quote from: JosephKell on August 18, 2010, 05:00:47 AM
And compels aren't supposed to kill the party or drive home values into the ground (can you imagine the insurance premium for loup-garou home owners?).
But some compels can lead to this. Just look at changes. Harry took a lot of compels in that and
(click to show/hide)
ended up creating a power vacuum that could destabilize the entire world.

And not ever compel has to result in the inner beast getting loose. Maybe the character could be startled by silver jewelry during an important negotiation as the beast seeps through. Or perhaps the character could get the urge to go out for a run at the worst possible time, because they have to burn off some of the energy from the previous night's transformation. There are plenty of other options that don't result in transformation for the GM to use.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on August 18, 2010, 04:10:11 PM: Actually. most compels will not end in the beast getting loose. They'll be more like, "You'd be really useful in this next scene. Too bad you have to go lock yourself up."

And your example has the flaws that 1) that adventure would have to be taking place during the full moon (you cant exatly just wait around till the times right.) and 2) the character would have to be willing to do that, which would make him an evil character anyway and has nothing to do with the Loup Garou.
Title: Re: Playable loup-garou-cursed character?
Post by: Brodie on August 18, 2010, 11:07:09 PM: Three nights out of an in-game month really aren't that many. Plus, it all depends on when, in-game, the GM's game takes place. Obviously, the GM will have to keep track, but that's a minor detail.

As for it being trouble for the other party members, look at just how early in Harry's career he encountered his first loup-garou. Fairly early. He was still wet behind the ears, despite his past. If you look at Fool Moon as a gaming session, the GM running it was rather sadistic. ;)

I'm in a group that puts value into player character back stories, and personal conflicts inherent to each character. We like exploring the good stuff as well as the bad stuff about our particular characters. I tried running a Dresden game using GURPS and only got a few sessions in before our wizard pc flaked and left the group. The person that played the loup-garou cursed guy in my game wants to play him again when our new Dresden game (not run by me) starts.

Also, it's not like every person with the curse would have the exact same one that plagued MacFinn's line. Some might have the chance to become free of it, thus becoming pure mortal (similar to White Court Virgins and Changelings). The way I had determined how the pc in my Dresden game was cursed was that his curse would end once he learned to control the beast. In the Dresden RPG, a character like this would hit a milestone if he comes across some hint as to how to control the beast.

The two ideas I have for my own characters in the upcoming campaign are nowhere near this complicated, since they'll be pure mortals. Clued-in, but pure mortal nonetheless. Which is odd for me, since I love Dresden and the other characters with powers, and even played a mage (who was a PI and insisted people refer to him as a wizard) in our old World of Darkness game run by the same guy that's going to run Dresden. But I firmly believe that our loup-cursed wannabe should be able to play his character without being penalized by taking powers he can't used. A high aspect and trouble should suffice.