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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: austinmonster on August 02, 2010, 07:08:29 PM
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I don't have my books on me, and i'm in the middle of having a discussion about Maneuvers... Is there anyway anyone here could refresh my memory with a reader's digest version of what I need to know about them?
how are they applied in a fight?
How many successes are required to place one though evocation?
How long do they last? (both though traditional maneuvers and through evocation-style ones).
What else do I need to know about them?
Also as an additional question - how powerful can you make a compel from a maneuver? I understand about causing someone to drop their weapon by placing the "disarmed" maneuver on someone, but what if you threw sand in their eyes and compelled them not only to miss, but to shoot someone else by accident?
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I don't have my books on me, and i'm in the middle of having a discussion about Maneuvers... Is there anyway anyone here could refresh my memory with a reader's digest version of what I need to know about them?
Nutshell: Difficulty 3 (or defender's roll, whichever is higher) to apply a temporary aspect on the scene or target. You get one free Tag. Shifts of effect are additional invoke usages (but you have to use fate points).
how are they applied in a fight?
"I am going to try to the nerd an atomic wedgie." Roll Might vs. Nerd's Athletics to apply "Uncomfortable Underwear" to the Nerd.
How many successes are required to place one though evocation?
Evocation maneuvers require 3 shifts of power get just the free tag. Each extra shift is another tag of stickiness.
How long do they last? (both though traditional maneuvers and through evocation-style ones).
Generally the scene, until used up, or until removed with a maneuver.
What else do I need to know about them?
Also as an additional question - how powerful can you make a compel from a maneuver? I understand about causing someone to drop their weapon by placing the "disarmed" maneuver on someone, but what if you threw sand in their eyes and compelled them not only to miss, but to shoot someone else by accident?
The compel should be related to the aspect. So for it to be powerful (do exactly what you want) it needs to be specific, which may make it is harder to invoke/tag for more uses.
An evocation maneuver of "Scatter the Scourge!" (a blast of force to scatter a pack of ghouls so the heroes can try to escape) is basically a compel for them to "be moved aside." You can't easily use that same aspect to punch one ghoul in the face.
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Nutshell: Difficulty 3 (or defender's roll, whichever is higher) to apply a temporary aspect on the scene or target. You get one free Tag. Shifts of effect are additional invoke usages (but you have to use fate points).
This isn't true for non-Evocation Maneuvers. Those you just have to beat the opponent's Defense roll to apply the Aspect for a turn, and beat it by one or more shifts to make it Sticky (in which case it lasts the scene or until removed).
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That all really helps!
so is it always 3 shifts to place a maneuver on a scene regardless of how you do it? With three shifts, it's "fragile" and only lasts a turn, but if you get one shift past what you need, it's now "sticky" right? What do extra shifts do beyond that? can you get extra tags out of them?
I have had no problem with doing creative things with compels. For example - a foe that's gotten the tag "blinded" could be caused to flat-out miss for one fate point (or using the tag) but if you had TWO fate points to spend (or one fate point, and using up the tag) you could cause him to shoot one of his allies. I don't mind being more free form with maneuvers and the like, but I have players who crave more crunch with their rules. It's like watching them go though withdraws.
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For evocation it is at least 3 shifts for a manoeuvre, further shifts only serve to make it sticky; sticky meaning that it will stay until the end of the scene even if you tag it. You cannot add further tags.
If it's thaumaturgy then it can be less than 3 shifts (as thaumaturgy is more powerful) and the duration is up to commonsense/gm's discretion, but you can build in additional free tags, so if it's only a 2 shift manoeuvre then you can get an extra tag for 4 shifts, 3 tags for 6 shifts and so on, an extra shift would make it sticky as normal so once all tags have been used it will continue to exist.
You can't tag or invoke the same aspect twice for the same roll but you could try to declare that the 'blinded' foe shoots his ally with just one tag/fatepoint-fueled declaration; however as you rightly say the GM will probably just say it results in a miss. On the other hand with two relevant aspects like 'blinded' and 'confused' you could very well use two fate points/tags to achieve this result.
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For evocation it is at least 3 shifts for a manoeuvre, further shifts only serve to make it sticky; sticky meaning that it will stay until the end of the scene even if you tag it. You cannot add further tags.
Correction: Evocation can't make sticky aspects. It can add duration on a point of power for one exchange.
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Oo thank you, I've always mis-read that! I sometimes wish the rules were a little simpler and more uniform. I was confused by the Whirlwind spell on YS295 which describes a sticky aspect created with evocation. Perhaps it only means that it lasts an extra exchange.
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A minor correction to maneuvers placing an aspect on a scene: the difficulty varies, and there is no hard floor.
P. 207:
"Against the environment, the maneuver is performed as a simple action against a fixed difficulty set by the GM, which is usually very context-dependent. For instance, knocking over a table in a bar would be Average, but finding cover in a barren desert could be Great or more..."
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There are a few things that could have made the book better, if you ask me. A chart that lays out what you need for different types of manuvers would have been great. I added a chart to the back page of mine that shows what skills you can use to attack, what skills defend, and what skills you base your stress track on for phsical/mental/social conflicts.
I think I'll stick with the sort of "running fast and loose" with the rules. Afterall, that's the spirit they were written in if you ask me. They were written to simulate the crazy stuff that goes on in Jim Butcher's books, right? There are times when harry pulls off stunts that would be VERY hard/impossible to do with the books... and all I can say there is "wow, the GM must value cool over rules" and I have zero problem with that.
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Correction: Evocation can't make sticky aspects. It can add duration on a point of power for one exchange.
This is right, but I can't help but feel it is a mistake?
Edit: Mind Fog (YS 299) mentions "one shift to make the effect 'sticky,'" for whatever that is worth.
Back to not edited in stuff...
As an aside, even for Evocation maneuvers the minimum shifts isn't always 3 (just the default is 3). And honestly, a lot of this just feels like "use your judgement." If it is Athletics or Might 1 to overturn a table, I can see a 1 shift air or spirit (force) maneuver doing the same thing. Although I can't imagine why a person would subject him or herself to 1 mental stress to just use their brain instead of their arm muscles (maybe to give cover to someone zones away?).
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I'm going to drudge this up because it relates even though I've asked about it previously. If it's a temporary aspect on a willing person do you still have to count it as a minimum 3 for success as evocation? in another post I wanted to create a blessing via thaumaturgy which started out a min 3 cost, but ended up with a min cost of 1. I think that's probably a matter of opinion and circumstance but I just want to understand how this works.
This is the post I am talking about.
I think you were on the right track at the beginning. Want to put a good luck aspect on someone who is willing? One shift for the aspect and then add shifts to get the duration you want (duration starting at one scene or about 15 minutes). So a complexity of 4 gets you a stcky aspect that will hang around a few hours.
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This is a good point!
Were you trying to set up said blessing with thaumaturgy, or with evocation? I think that's the main linchpin in deciding what answer to give you.
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This is a good point!
Were you trying to set up said blessing with thaumaturgy, or with evocation? I think that's the main linchpin in deciding what answer to give you.
my original intention was and still is to set this up via thaumaturgy before combat. I guess I wanted to know the cost via evocation during combat to apply that same temporary aspect. 3+duration? It would go away as soon as it's used regardless of duration.
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I'm going to drudge this up because it relates even though I've asked about it previously. If it's a temporary aspect on a willing person do you still have to count it as a minimum 3 for success as evocation? in another post I wanted to create a blessing via thaumaturgy which started out a min 3 cost, but ended up with a min cost of 1. I think that's probably a matter of opinion and circumstance but I just want to understand how this works.
This is the post I am talking about.
The book specifically says when the person invoking is trying to get an advantage (I read this as "combat advantage to hurt/hinder") then the guy being invoked on gets the fate point.
So you can't invoke your buddy to use him as a human step stool AND give him the fate point.
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The book specifically says when the person invoking is trying to get an advantage (I read this as "combat advantage to hurt/hinder") then the guy being invoked on gets the fate point.
So you can't invoke your buddy to use him as a human step stool AND give him the fate point.
I was just looking to give him a one time +2 bonus to a check of some kind through a temporary aspect, not a fate point on either side. it's just a bit of momentary luck.
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You can do a maneuver to give him something to tag (no fate point required and no risk of fate points being transferred).
For example: You and your buddy, Bob, were just caught behind a bar hearing something you shouldn't have been listening in on. You decide to pretend you and Bob were having a disagreement, and therefore couldn't have been eavesdropping. You want to make it look good by throwing a punch at Bob's head. You roll Fists and get a Superb result (in this case the GM rules that since you were just walked in on, this is a very hard maneuver of Great). Bob catches the hint and falls back into the wall with the aspect of "Looks like one helluva punch."
On Bob's exchange he can tag the aspect to surprise the guys (or use it for effect to try to use Ambush). He can even tag it to make a deceit check to try to further convince the new guys that you two were really distracted with your own stuff.
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I guess I'm not explaining myself. I designed a thaumaturgy spell called blessing of good fortune. It applies a temporary aspect to a person with one free tag. The recipient can use it for a bonus as you can anytime gaining the one time free use and the tag goes away. In discussions we determined that it's probably a minimal cost spell probably costs 1 or 2 base plus the duration you want to add to it through thaumaturgy because the target wouldn't resist. I was curious what the base cost would be with evocation instead. Would it be a standard 3 plus duration?
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Regardless what was determined in another thread, the base cost of unresisted maneuvers for evocation and thaumaturgy is 3.
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Regardless what was determined in another thread, the base cost of unresisted maneuvers for evocation and thaumaturgy is 3.
So that's the standard regardless of whether or not an effect is resisted? No bonus for people not resisting?
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Okay, let me see if I am getting this straight.
1. It is a spell.
2. It gives a very versatile aspect to tag.
Yeah, that is going to be at least 3 shifts for the tag. Since it is Thaumaturgy, you can easily make it last a whole day for a few shifts of power. And since it is Thaumaturgy, it is easy to avoid stress anyway, so don't worry about that.
Honestly, it seems kind of too good since it is so broad. Maybe if it is restricted to being only usable on things that are sufficiently luck based? Like any skill the character is mediocre (or worse) at, to count as shifts spent for time duration (2 shift time reduction), invoke for effect to find something that can help (you find a hair pin while locked up in a closet), and things like that.
So instead of being a +2 tag, it can make it possible to do something without a penalty or faster.
This would work out really well (and balanced) as a potion. Because that is basically what it is, a potion.
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yeah I see what you are saying. I am very new to the system, I have not started playing yet. I'm preparing my character for friday. So you think it's too broad the way it is and I need it to be more specific? It's a little depressing but I understand why it's considered to be too good. I guess I'll have to do more thinking about it. If I made the tag specific to a skill the player has, would that be more appropriate? Like a gun tag for a character with a gun?
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Ask yourself these questions:
1. Would a character capable of producing this effect go without it?
2. Would a character capable of producing this effect have any reason to just have one charge?
If the answer to those questions are "No," and "As many charges as possible," then it should be a potion.
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I guess I don't understand the difference. I could spend all my item slots on potions and really achieve the same effect which is exactly what I want. I am trying to understand from the perspective of the game if a tag is considered to be too powerful how do you handle that? Do you try to make it more specific or add to the casting cost? I based my spell on the mild entropy curse example in the book. If a person has the aspect Bad luck applied to them sticky and free to tag once by the caster why couldn't I do the exact opposite and cast a Good Luck spell? I don't even want to make it sticky. Base cost 3 was established previously and I am understand that. I can add shifts to duration. Does that not work?
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What I am saying is this:
"If I can have a bunch of generic taggable magic aspects floating on me, why shouldn't I have even more of them available?"
If there is a thaumaturgical spell to place such a bonus, why shouldn't the wizard of the part do 100 of them for each character each morning? Now the obvious response is "That is blatant munchkining/twinking/lame." Well yeah, of course it is lame. But when stupid good* things exist in a game, especially when they have no additional associated cost or limiting factor, why shouldn't people keep pushing that "magic dispensing button?"
*Stupid good is defined as anything so good that someone would have to be stupid to not take it.
In DFrpg, requiring the usage of potion slots acts as a limiting factor for your spell (this is a good thing). It means you (1) have a finite number of them, (2) have to drink and use the tag during a scene, and (3) can pass it off to someone else (by giving them the potion).
If you want to do an evocation maneuver in a conflict, that is fine. You are paying for the tag with (1) a standard action (i.e. your main action this exchange was to get or give a tag) and (2) by taking mental stress. Thaumaturgy done prior to a conflict doesn't face the same cost, therefore it is unbalanced.
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if you are being strict about time limits, then doing 100 thaumaturgic maneuvers every morning would take about... 25 hours. So yeah, good luck preparing that. Also of note, is that the GM still gets to set the difficulties of any thaumaturgy maneuver you want to try, so going for an aspect that can be tagged in literally every single situation is bound to receive some high complexity costs, unless the GM is asleep at the wheel.
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What luminos said, only 25 hours is a minimum. It's GM discretion how long Thaumaturgy actually takes, so it could be a whole lot longer (say, 100 hours at an hour per ritual). Still, doing one or two a morning isn't unreasonable... Of course, your 'morning ritual' time seems to me to be an ideal time for people to attack ou. It probably seems that way to all your enemies, too.