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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Ophidimancer on August 02, 2010, 05:54:00 PM

Title: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Ophidimancer on August 02, 2010, 05:54:00 PM
In other words, if it was pitch black, could I use a Glamour to see?  Also, how much do you allow a Galmour to change the appearance of something?  Could I pluck a hair from my head and glamour it into a clone of me?
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: wyvern on August 02, 2010, 07:04:07 PM
I'd probably say yes, and no, respectively, but I'm sure others will have different opinions.

The first one is really just a GM judgment call; some will say no, it's not real; others, like me, will consider output of light to be part and parcel of the appearance of things and say yes.

I don't think there's any hard-and-fast limit on how much you can change the appearance of something; there will be judgment calls no matter what your rule is.  Personally, my rule of thumb for glamours would be that you can't make any change that would directly and automatically modify skill rolls - no making yourself look so huge that people aiming for your body just shoot over your head, for example (though a maneuver to use glamours and give yourself an aspect "Not as big as I look" would be fine).
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Walker_Blade on August 03, 2010, 04:09:06 AM
Carrying a flashlight or a lighter does not cost any refresh.  Glamour costs -2.  I would definitely weigh in on the side of allowing a character with glamours to make a light source.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on August 03, 2010, 04:46:01 AM
I'm more-or-less with wyvern on this one.

Definite yes on the light, though.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Ophidimancer on August 06, 2010, 05:59:21 PM
Hmm ok, so can a seeming make sound?  Phantom music, bird calls to distract, that sort of thing?

I'm making a fox changeling, do you think I could assume fox form, but then cast a seeming of my man form over myself and talk to people as normal a la Wolf's Rain?
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: wyvern on August 06, 2010, 06:13:49 PM
Again, I'd say yes, it can make noise.  (Within reasonable limits - no blowing out someone's eardrums with a phantom air horn.  Though, hey, that'd make for a great variant on the Breath Weapon power...)
However, the examples you use - maybe not so much, since you need a connection to the thing you're glamouring.  On the other hand, if somebody is chasing you through a forest that either you literally own, or that you've actually prepared for the purpose with little trinkets owned by you up in every third tree or so?  Then you might be able to pull that off.

For the second one: I'd tend to rule no, as per my example in my original post.  On the other hand, as your character is an actual kitsune, not just a were-fox, I'd also tend to rule that 1) you can talk in your fox form anyway, and 2) you don't have quite as much of an issue with clothes when you shift - probably explicitly allowing any traditional japanese garb to shift with you.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: fabulator on August 06, 2010, 06:27:11 PM
As far as Glamouring up some light to see by I'd leave it up to your GM. I can see the point of the poster arguing that a -2 refresh power should give you more benefit than a no refresh cost flashlight but also consider that magic in the Dresdenverse is still reliant on physics. If you've got no real photons to bounce off stuff, you aint seeing anything. Glamouring a clone of you out of a hair; maybe, but the roll should be really, really difficult and require a lot of shifts for duration and such-like. Seemings for phantom sound and all that are right on; I really don't see why you'd need a connection to what or where you're putting the seemings. Also putting a seeming of a man over your fox form is totally fine too.  I think in the end its going to come down to your GM and what he or she lets you get away with.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: wyvern on August 06, 2010, 06:38:49 PM
Quote from: fabulator on August 06, 2010, 06:27:11 PM
I really don't see why you'd need a connection to what or where you're putting the seemings.

Answer: Because the power as written in the book says that you need such a connection.  Now, if you think that restriction ought to be waived for certain sorts of small illusions, then you can take that up with your gaming group - and who knows, they may be fine with it.  Personally, I wouldn't be - but that's because I feel that Glamours is a very strong power already, at least in the hands of a creative player.

Your final conclusion is dead right, though - the actual limits are whatever your GM (and fellow players) will let you do with it, which will almost certainly end up either more, less, or just differently restrictive than what I'd rule for games I run.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: luminos on August 06, 2010, 06:52:00 PM
My interpretation:  No, a seeming of a flashlight cannot create light.  The way I see it, seemings make it look like something is there, without giving it any substance.  To get any mundane utility out of a seeming, it would need to be a true seeming.  So what if regular flashlights don't cost any refresh?  Just use a regular flashlight then. That's not what Glamours are for.  Glamours are there to trick people with convincing illusions.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Ophidimancer on August 06, 2010, 06:53:48 PM
Aww, no using Glamours for fox fire, witch lights, or will'o'wisps then Luminos?
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: luminos on August 06, 2010, 07:02:12 PM
Well, maybe, but it would have to be customized slightly to do so if my interpretation is correct.  If the only mundane utility given to seemings is some limited lighting, it probably wouldn't mess anything up too much.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Lanir on August 06, 2010, 08:44:20 PM
Evocation does both sound and light without any problem. But it's a more general tool. Glamours are a bit more specific. You could probably make a solid case for taking a lesser light source and try enhancing it with Glamours to appear as some other type of light however. The same holds true for sound. Either one is of course subject to your GM's approval, honestly I could see sensible arguments for going either way on those. For a more versatile power that you know will do this without any need for guesswork consider picking up (Un)Seelie Magic or Evocation depending on what flavor you're after.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: neko128 on August 10, 2010, 05:02:01 PM
If you rule that a seeming of a Flashlight cannot create real light, can it create illusory light?

At one point in the books,
(click to show/hide)
.  For immobile objects, and for objects that you can detect in other methods beyond the visual while not currently being able to see them, it works perfectly.  Outside of the nitty-gritty of actual physics, does it make a difference?

What exactly is the player trying to get out of a seeming of a Flashlight?  An illusion of light wouldn't trigger a photovoltaic cell, for example, which could be both good and bad; and wouldn't be visible to anyone who wasn't subject to the illusion.

There are advantages to a group of people, instead of using an actual light source, having one member who can use some form of non-visual perception (spell-based or otherwise) to "see" their surroundings and then project an illusion onto the group giving them the equivalent of sight.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Ophidimancer on August 10, 2010, 05:14:33 PM
I don't think Glamour illusions are mental hallucinations.  They may be ephemeral, but I think everyone sees them the same.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Lanir on August 10, 2010, 06:52:02 PM
I was thinking of the book example neko128 brought up as well. Basically I thought if you shut it down as a real light source you'd open it up to an "it's all in your head" interpretation, which would in turn lead someone who'd read the books to eventually try the mental shenanigans neko128 mentioned. I didn't think mental hoodoo was the right way to go and on top of that it could quickly get annoyingly complex to describe and keep everyone on the same page. I'd be willing to juggle that in small doses if it seemed like the right feel for the power but it just doesn't. That and I didn't relish having one of these conversations:

Glamour Boy: I use my Glamour to paint an illusion inside my head of what the room looked like before it got dark.
GM: Okay.
Player 2: Wait, let me get this straight... He just went nuts and decided he could see in the dark so now he can?
GM: Err... Sort of?
Player 2: I need to get me some mental problems like that.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: tymire on August 10, 2010, 07:12:07 PM
Actually not quite, she didn't cast anything.  Lash has perfect memory and could overwrite Harry's senses.  So since Harry had seem the location before hand, he was trusting Lash to overwrite his senses and provide accurate information.  She also can come up with things on her own, however she is limited to Harry's senses when seeing out.  He uses this talent quite a few times in the books.  For example: memorizing the necro book, Tomas's buliten board, etc..
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: ralexs1991 on August 11, 2010, 12:21:02 AM
Well seeing as we are able to see things because of the light bouncing off of the object and into our eyes I'd say that anysort of glamour  emits it's own light rather than reflecting the suns light off of it so yes I thing a glamour torch would give off light
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Lukas the Dead on August 11, 2010, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: ralexs1991 on August 11, 2010, 12:21:02 AM
Well seeing as we are able to see things because of the light bouncing off of the object . . .

Adding physics to the discussion makes it kind of tricky as: if a glamour is a source of light then can it cast a shadow?

Then you go: "Well, it just doesn't cast light in that direction"

Then they go: "Oh, so in darkness it would have a shadow but in light it still wouldn't and it's going to not have any projection in the direction of the shadow . . ."

The answer can always be "it's magic so yes/no/sometimes," but then you really reset the argument back to the beginning. The "sometimes" part could lead to players checking everything for shadows and could be fun.  
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: Ophidimancer on August 11, 2010, 03:54:40 PM
Here's a comment about glamour, I found it because I'm in the middle of re-reading.

Quote
A myrk wasn’t like other forms of faerie glamour. Those could create appearance, and could simulate emotional states related to that appearance.

It's not much to go on, actually, in relation to this discussion, but it expands the purview of glamour to include simulated emotional states.

I personally think I'm going to rule that seemings interact with light as if they were really the objects they portray.  So seeming torches shed real light, and seeming objects cast shadows.  I draw the line at allowing glamour laser to actually burn anything, though.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: wyvern on August 11, 2010, 04:15:26 PM
Though that'd be a fun excuse for taking "breath weapon" - Behold the power of my imaginary laser!
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: neko128 on August 12, 2010, 04:18:29 PM
Quote from: ralexs1991 on August 11, 2010, 12:21:02 AM
Well seeing as we are able to see things because of the light bouncing off of the object and into our eyes I'd say that anysort of glamour  emits it's own light rather than reflecting the suns light off of it so yes I thing a glamour torch would give off light

This is really the crux of it.  There are two ways a person can perceive a glamour - using their eyes (in which case, it's a physical property of the glamour) or because it's an illusion imposed on their mind.  In the former case, IMHO, a glamour of a torch should be assumed to generate light; in the latter, it doesn't create light, but that brings up the other possibility that was tossed out there - if you can get the information some other way, a glamour can be used *instead* of sight.

Quote from: tymire
Actually not quite, she didn't cast anything.  Lash has perfect memory and could overwrite Harry's senses.

Well, I put it in spoiler tags to avoid using her name or specify what she did, as this is officially a spoiler-free board.  But never mind that.  :-P

I'm willing to accept that what she did was directly affect his mind instead of using an illusion...  I read it most recently a couple months ago.  But that brings us back to what I just said above; someone's perceiving the glamour either physically (with their eyes) or mentally.  In the former, it *is* generating light; otherwise, the glamoured torch would not appear to glow.  In the latter, it opens up a different can of worms.  Unless you can think of a third way that glamour might work.

In Shadowrun terms, it's physical vs. mana spells.  There were two types of illusion spells; physical and mental.  The former tended to be higher drain, had physical components (you could touch them), and affected cameras.  The latter were purely mental - you weren't imposing an illusion on the physical world, you were imposing an illusion on the minds of the people seeing it.
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: wyvern on August 12, 2010, 05:14:22 PM
So, I'm going to go devil's advocate for the remainder of this post.  (I.E. this is not the ruling I'd go with, but I think the argument is worth mentioning anyway.)

I direct your attention to YS11: Science Fails.  Sure, from a scientific point of view, the idea of a torch that is visible but casts no light is total hogwash.  But we're explicitly not dealing with science here.  And from a holistic point of view, there's no reason that the appearance of a torch should be connected to the effect of a torch.  What does a real torch do?  It casts light.  So what can a fake torch obviously not do...?  Now, a torch that doesn't cast light would look mighty odd in a dark room - probably giving large bonuses to alertness or investigation rolls to reveal it as fake - but for a magical illusion, even one that can be captured by camera, it'd be totally doable.  (You'd never get people to believe the pictures, though.  Obviously photoshopped.)
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: ralexs1991 on August 12, 2010, 07:15:30 PM
@Lukas the Dead
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: ralexs1991 on August 12, 2010, 07:19:57 PM
@Lukas the Dead: I think you just gave me a great idea for my campaign haha  ;D

@Neko128 If it's the sort of Glamour cast into one's mind wouldn't that make it in direct violation of the laws of magic
Title: Re: Can a Glamour Torch shed real light?
Post by: babel2uk on August 14, 2010, 08:15:40 PM
Quote from: ralexs1991 on August 12, 2010, 07:19:57 PM
@Neko128 If it's the sort of Glamour cast into one's mind wouldn't that make it in direct violation of the laws of magic

As far as I recall the Laws of Magic do not apply to faerie, and Glamour is faerie magic.

As far as the light issue goes. I'd say no as far as the lesser Glamour is concerned. It can alter the appearance of or hide existing items and people (it says this specifically) so you could make something look like a flashlight, but it wouldn't work like one unless what you were using actually produced light itself. It's only when you get to Greater Glamours that you can actually create something (out of ectoplasm - which gets around the physics aspect as that can basically mimic anything it needs to).