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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: dlw32 on August 02, 2010, 03:12:06 PM

Title: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: dlw32 on August 02, 2010, 03:12:06 PM
Let's say there's a Wizard who also like to sing at Open Mike Night at the local coffee house. He really wants to get the song across to the audience and is not above a little magic behind it (actually for color, I was really thinking he might not even be truly aware he's casting while singing, a nod to the mythology of the ancient Welsh bards who had "magic on their tongues").

In any case, is this spell a Lawbreaker? He's not trying to enthrall or even get groupies, he just wants to make sure the point gets across.

Get the Point
Type:  Air Evocation, maneuver
Power:   6 Shifts of power:  3 to apply the tag (+2 for the whole zone, +1 for Duration)
Control:  Perform?? Disc?? vs what?
Duration:  1 song
Effect:  Whatever the emotional content of the song is, that feeling permeates the room. This can apply a tag to the zone such as: Melancholy, Energy, Joy, etc.


Thoughts??
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: CMEast on August 02, 2010, 03:27:34 PM
I would apply it as an aspect to the scene that effects that atmosphere. That way it's not a directly manipulating the emotions of the NPCs but you're still getting the effect you're looking for. As you're targeting the scene itself rather than everyone in the zone, you don't have to pay the additional 2 shifts (See YS253) so it's just a 3 shift spell, plus one to make it sticky. It might be more if you are performing in a theatre or a stadium, but 4 is fine for an Open Mic Night.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: Ophidimancer on August 02, 2010, 03:35:40 PM
Another way that you could totally avoid Lawbreaking in this case is to just cast a spell on yourself.  Give yourself a Resonant Voice Aspect or something and then tag it while doing a Performance roll to add an Aspect to the scene.

I personally don't see projective empathy as clearly Black Magic, though.  I think it's just a nudge and a boosting of one's normal social ability.

Oh and if you have any more Lawbreaking questions, you can direct them to the Ethics, Wizards, and the Laws of Magic (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19903.0.html) thread.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: Papa Gruff on August 02, 2010, 03:50:00 PM
Quote from: Ophidimancer on August 02, 2010, 03:35:40 PM
Another way that you could totally avoid Lawbreaking in this case is to just cast a spell on yourself.  Give yourself a Resonant Voice Aspect or something and then tag it while doing a Performance roll to add an Aspect to the scene.

This. Through the means of illusion and maneuver you could buff your Performance dramatically. You could even do it multiple times, stacking different Aspects, to create a really outstanding Performance. You even might decide that it is an unconscious use of magic channeled through the passion for the song or any other performance. Thats pretty much flavor in my opinion.

Something like this would make a good power too, that might come handy in some situations. Many glamors used by fairies in folklore have some kind of song component. Might be something cool for a changeling or something similar...
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: dlw32 on August 02, 2010, 05:23:17 PM
I thought about the Resonant Voice approach but that felt more planned. I was sort of hoping this could be more just the way he was taught to sing.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: CMEast on August 02, 2010, 05:43:43 PM
Well a few times people have discussed a bardic magic, using performance instead of discipline to control. Perhaps that might fit what you're looking for?
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: Saedar on August 02, 2010, 08:31:18 PM
Quote from: CMEast on August 02, 2010, 05:43:43 PM
Well a few times people have discussed a bardic magic, using performance instead of discipline to control. Perhaps that might fit what you're looking for?

That could be pretty cool, actually. Performance=Discipline and maybe Empathy=Conviction? Though, then you would have a shorter mental stress track, probably. You could have elements like "Jazz" or "Wrist-slashingly-sad-pop-emo" or something along those lines.

Damn... Now I have a new character idea to stat.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: dlw32 on August 03, 2010, 03:11:34 AM
Yeah, it's shocking how quickly new characters demand your attention!

I like the subing of Perform with discipline, but not for this pc. This guy is more Druid (like in the Mabinogion; not the were-creature-wannabe you get in RPGs) than bard. But he is Welsh and that means singing.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: Jaxom Faux on August 03, 2010, 11:47:41 AM
or your songs could simply be a ritual. your lyrics and music providing the components and your performance not lore determining complexity.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: JustinS on August 05, 2010, 02:55:11 AM
Quote from: Jaxom Faux on August 03, 2010, 11:47:41 AM
or your songs could simply be a ritual. your lyrics and music providing the components and your performance not lore determining complexity.
Or your songs could be a ritual, and your lyrics and music being used for declarations and whatnot to boost your lore.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: Bubba Amon Hotep on August 05, 2010, 06:10:23 AM
Wouldn't you need to prep a spell to increase you volume, as your other spells that boost your performance are going to short out the mike and amps?

I mean you are talking about a Wizard that plays un-pluged all the time, because if he plugs in you get nasty feedback when those amps and speakers blow.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: dlw32 on August 05, 2010, 01:59:08 PM
Yes, Bubba (loved the movie...  :) ) my guy does small venues. I do have the idea of a spell to thicken the air so sound would travel better, but Rhys really isn't looking to become a rock star or anything.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: austinmonster on August 05, 2010, 02:43:17 PM
Maybe i'm alone on this one, but i'm pretty sure that just messing with people's emotions isn't quite the same as controlling their thoughts.

(click to show/hide)

Lawbreakers are those who take away the free will of another, even if it's just for a single choice.  They remove the ability to choose.   If you can make one option more attractive than another, then you are not removing the choice, just modifying it.  Making someone more emotionally inclined to make one choice over another is not mind-control <i>per se</i>.  If it can't make someone go against their nature, or do something they wouldn't have normally done, then it's not really mind control.  if it doesn't actually break though the ego barrier that separates "me" from "them" then it's not mind control.

This is just the way I see it anyway.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: CMEast on August 05, 2010, 03:05:24 PM
Well that does make sense austinmonster, but what about when Molly makes one of her friends fear drugs? You could argue the fear itself doesn't prevent them from choosing drugs, it's just makes them more inclined to avoid them.

Of course that was a permanent change rather a mild modification, but bear in mind that in YS it does state that the love potion is in a grey area.

An illusion of beauty could change someones state of mind but it's the minds response to stimulus rather than a forced change. Perhaps the love potion was more like a chemically induced state than mental magic, affecting the body rather than the mind directly. Music can arouse powerful feelings in someone and, with magic, perhaps that effect can be magnified without it needing to be mind control.
Title: Re: Magic, Song, and Lawbreaking
Post by: austinmonster on August 05, 2010, 04:19:31 PM
I think, at the end of the day, it's a combination of the effect, and the means used to reach said effect.

Perhaps just as important as taking away free will is the part of piercing their mental barrier and making them more vulnerable to the things that go bump.  I'm not sure if they actually talk about the Ego Barrier in the book, but that's how i see it.  It's what separates the Ego (the sense of self) from that which is not ego.  One you break that skin, you have a hard time differentiating what is you, and what isn't. 
(click to show/hide)
  It's a bit more esoteric, but that's how my little fevered brain sees it.

If you want to be really exact about it, some could say that emotions originate in the body, not the mind.   Emotions are hormone and limbic reactions to stimuli. They originate stomatically in whatever parts of the body control adrenaline and the like. Sorry, i'm not horribly well-read on these things.