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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ashern on August 02, 2010, 01:38:45 AM
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Hey guys, I've got a character for my up to the waist game who only has thaumaturgy, and is a potion specialist. I let her take refinements, so I'm looking at +2 strength and +1 frequency, and a +2 strength focus item for a character that has a base lore of 4, a nice workshop, and an appropriate aspect or two.
I recall reading that enchanted items have a peak or twice the caster's lore, my question is if that applies to potions as well, if they're being boosted by fate points. As it is, with a single tag, brewing it in her spiffy focus cauldron, this character could theoretically produce a ten shift potion with two doses, for a single enchanted item slot.
(let me know if my math is wrong, if it is I need to tell the player to change what is on their sheet).
Here's the question, would burning fate points allow the potion to get this strong, or possibly higher? I'm not really worried about it, the player isn't a powergamer, but I was just wondering.
Also, to my understanding, if I was to take that ten shift effect, and use it for say a... dragonbreath potion (the character has a dragon thing going on, besides, it's a fantasy staple!), my math works out that it could be used as a weapon 8 attack, over a whole zone, targeted with whatever skill seems appropriate. Did I do that right?
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Yes, you are right. Potion strength can be increased with Tags and Invokes while brewing them or on the fly (while using them). Essentially, they are stored spells.
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Also, I was rereading the chapter and it says that potions could replicate just about any appropriate evocation or thaumaturgy effect. I suppose this means that you could have a "potion of invisibility", with a strong veil effect with a scene length duration (similar to the one in fool moon, but with a straight veil). I'm just trying to think of ideas for the player, there's a decent number of potion slots available, and I was wanting to know what I can be expecting.
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Invisibility potions are definitely possible. Other useful potions are defensive blocks (stone skin/lizard hide or whatever), offensive blocks (paralysing potions, glue bags, flash bangs and so forth), tracking potions (just add blood or hair and then drink it, or treat it like a compass, or a scrying pool).
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Also remember potions means any single use item and not just things you drink. My character is going to have some dried blackberries that you cast into a zone and they then grow into brambles that then break down into ectoplasm at the end of the scene (an area block/grapple).
There is a lot of flexibility in potions but the disadvantage is being prepared.
Oh and if you follow the stories you can't drink more than one in any scene or they react in your stomach.
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CMeast- great examples! I'll have to go back and glance at the draconomicon for some ideas, so I can stat out stuff and have it ready to go for the player.
ironchicken- good point, non liquid one use items are an excellent point. Somehow I don't think too many enemies could run away from a nice enchanted thornbush like that.
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I'd like to add a bunch of questions to this:
How does increased frequency (from specialization) work with "potions are any one-shot item"? One of my players has 6 potion slots and a total frequency of 3 (+2 from specializations). Does he have 6 potions each usable once or 6 potions each usable 3 times?
Did we decide if potions have the same cap as other enchanted items (lore x 2)? How does specialties/focus items that increase lore work with this? That same character has lore 5, +3 strength, for an effective starting strength of 8. Assuming he does the normal skill maneuver/tag bit, he can easily drive this up. Is his potion making capped at 10 (twice his lore), 16 (twice his effective strength), or not at all?
Say he wants to make money selling potions that temporarily offer "male enhancements" or "boob job in a can". The best I can figure out is to use it as conjuring or transformation. (conjuring would produce fake results, ecto-peen, but could be made very realistic by adding to the complexity, real would be a true, albeit temporary, transformation, grey area of the laws and all). Now, as this isn't complete or permanent transformation, I don't see it needing to have a complexity of 26 or whatever. But, what should it be? 4 to cover the stress boxes, (assuming no resistance to get past), and then what? Is "male enhancement" an aspect, a mild consequence (even though it's positive?), or what?
Someone mentioned "powered by fate points". I read somewhere else that to give yourself a power, even temporarily, should cost over 26 complexity (because of full transformation), but the book seems to indicate that you could have a lower cost but have the effect powered by fate points equal to the refresh cost of the power. If we went that way (paying, say, 2 fate points to gain inhuman strength for a scene), what would the potion cost be?
What's the cost for just a base skill increase? Say, +4 to athletics for a scene? Some of the examples in the books seem to do this, but for specific things (jumping to overcome barriers, ect). If this is possible, then could you make a potion just to increase your might? How is this different, cost-wise and effect-wise, than gaining, say, supernatural strength (as a temporary power)?
For example, the character made a potion of see lies. Basically, a bonus to empathy for a scene towards detecting lies. He doesn't want it just as an aspect (+2 once for free, then costing a fate point each time to invoke), but is trying to get a scene-length bonus. Is this possible? What should the cost be?
sorry for all the questions. We just started playing and complexity of some spells/potions is a huge discussion for us right now.
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Frequency works on potions normally - it says so in the book. So, if you have frequency, you brew a potion for an effect and instead of needing to drink all of it to gain the effect, you could drink half of it and save the other half for later (2 uses). Or if you have lots of frequency, you can spread a potion five ways and it still works.
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Alrighty, consulting the book (YS 280), gives me the impression that you can get extra uses. It specifically states that you normally can't exchange the extra strength bonus on an item for extra uses... but that you can for potions. Which leaves me slightly confused as well. I'd tend to allow multiple "dosings" of a particular potion. Several doses of RC anti venom? Sure, that makes sense. However, I wouldn't allow it to have multiple effects in the same slot, that seems to go against the intention of keeping this all simple and neat.
As for the strength, personally I have no clue about the cap calculations that you're putting up. Though I'd be tempted to say that 16 would be the absolute cap I'd allow. Although I'd have to wonder where they're getting all the fate points to dump into that potion...
Edit: Ninja'd on frequency.
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Frequency works on potions normally - it says so in the book.
Yup, and it states rather emphatically that "a given potion may only be used once, period" (YS280)... which confused some of our players as they thought they were being conflicting information from the book. Basically, it should read, "period, unless you've increased the frequency or dedicated more slots.."
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all the fate points to dump into that potion...
No fate points, just making a lot of skill rolls for declarations. To go from 8 to 16, you just need 4 skill rolls that each provide a free taggable aspect , so Discipline (intently focused), Contacts (white court vampire blood vial), ect could work.
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Yeah, you can use many of the tricks that work for ritual magic. I compiled them in a guide about a week ago. A ritualist wizard could get a ritual power of 40+ with them.
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Ahh, good call on the declarations and stuff, hadn't thought about that. Sounds like a solid plan, though if one of my players wanted to do that, I would demand that they do that in session during free time, and not that they could "assume that they had done all of that" for any generic pregen potions. I'm fine with you having a bunch of potions laying around, but if you want a special one, it needs to be part of the story. (at least in my opinion)
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I'm fine with you having a bunch of potions laying around, but if you want a special one, it needs to be part of the story. (at least in my opinion)
I limit the "i just happen to have the perfect thing for this!" potions to the regular strength of (lore + specialty + extra slot bonus + any invoked aspects.) Which can honestly still push to 12 or so. But yeah declarations only work if you're making it in game... my players have already made some stuff like this.
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One hedge witch with:
[-2] Ritual: crafting
[-3] Refinement 3x
Lore 4 and Conviction 4
Can have the following:
1 book of shadows (crafting focus strength +4, frequency +2)
1 ring of blasting, weapon 8, 3 uses/session, use conviction to aim (can use mental stress for extra uses)
1 herbal talisman of invisibility, 3 uses. This is actually a "potion" that is worn, not drunk. Base strength 8 veil that lasts a day, usually with 1 invoke when brewed, 1 invoke when used for strength 12.
1 potion of invulnerability, 3 uses. As above for strength, block instead of veil.
1 potion of awareness, 3 uses. As above, perception instead of veil.
So she runs around with veil 12, block 12, perception 12 all day long and if there's danger she shoots people in the back with a weapon 8 boomstick (their defense is mediocre cause they'll always be surprised)
Worse yet, she can apply that defense to two other people in addition to herself.
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1 book of shadows (crafting focus strength +4, frequency +2)
One note. Unless you spend specializations in Focus for crafting, the amount of Focus Item Slots that can be placed in a single item are limited to your Lore, IIRC. So you'd have to split that item into two separate ones.
Not a big deal, though.
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Well, the Book of Shadows can be ala "Charmed", an actual item of power that gives refinement benefits (specifically, focus) to anyone who has magical ability (ritual or thaumaturgy). On the plus side, you can cram 2 more refinements due to one-time discount. On the minus side, EVERYONE will want to steal it. I mean, they tried just that on the Charmed what, two times every 3 episodes in the whole series?
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Can you really give someone perception +12?
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Belial666: That mostly works...but the Potions are really iffy.
Firstly, a Potion is explicitly only one use, ever. Frequency bonuses are useless on them. If it's not a Potion, you get the three uses...but can't burn Fate POoints to make it more potent.
Secondly, as Veils act as 'a magical Stealth roll' it is very unlikely that the Veil will survive taking an attack action (Stealth usually doesn't).
Thirdly, you've burned 2 FP on this...a fair number of people could spot you pretty easily for an only slighly higher investment in FP (or even a lower one if they've got some navel-gazing Aspects available).
The Invulnerability and Awareness potions won't get the day-long base duration of the Veil one, since in neither case is there Thaumaturgy to do that, so they'll last one round by default...and thus the invulnerability one's better as a non-potion, and the Awareness one is of somewhat limited utility.
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Belial666: That mostly works...but the Potions are really iffy.
Firstly, a Potion is explicitly only one use, ever. Frequency bonuses are useless on them. If it's not a Potion, you get the three uses...but can't burn Fate POoints to make it more potent.
So here's a vote that potions are one use, despite frequency bonuses. Can someone point to the book where these bonuses would apply to potions? (i already quoted the explicit one use line from YS280).
Secondly, as Veils act as 'a magical Stealth roll' it is very unlikely that the Veil will survive taking an attack action (Stealth usually doesn't).
Thirdly, you've burned 2 FP on this...a fair number of people could spot you pretty easily for an only slighly higher investment in FP (or even a lower one if they've got some navel-gazing Aspects available).
Right. . A potion-veil would simply let you do one on the fly, without stress or worrying about length. It would still get pierced the first time you did anything aggressive, ect. However, nothing really says it goes away once one person sees through it (see, veiling buildings under thaumaturgy in YS). But you would get more mileage out of just doing a ritual in the morning, because you could use declarations to set it higher.
The Invulnerability and Awareness potions won't get the day-long base duration of the Veil one, since in neither case is there Thaumaturgy to do that, so they'll last one round by default...and thus the invulnerability one's better as a non-potion, and the Awareness one is of somewhat limited utility.
most people seem to recommend that potions have a duration of "scene" anyways. There isn't really anything that says "if you have a magic effect that isn't clearly spelled out under thaumaturgy, it defaults to one round" as far as I can tell. Some of the examples in the book give effects that last longer than one round (the hyperawareness potion, ect). One of the things I'd love to hear is how people are assigning complexity, including what time frame they are using as a base.
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a Potion is explicitly only one use, ever.
Except when it isn't;
YS280
A frequency specialization allows you one more use
per session. A strength specialization increases
the effect strength of your basic enchanted items
by 1 (this strength specialization bonus can’t
be traded in for an additional per-session use).
In the case of potions, this can create stronger
potions, or ones that you can get two uses out
of.
Bolded the relevant stuff.
As for the Invulnerability and Awareness potions, Thaumaturgy does do that. Use "simple action" to replicate perception and dodge of 12, and unless otherwise stated, thaumaturgy lasts until the next sunrise.
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Except when it isn't;
Bolded the relevant stuff.
Hmm. You appear to be correct here, my bad. My bad. I was going with the actual Potion description and missed that bit.
As for the Invulnerability and Awareness potions, Thaumaturgy does do that. Use "simple action" to replicate perception and dodge of 12, and unless otherwise stated, thaumaturgy lasts until the next sunrise.
That's...really shaky, expecially on the Block (Wards are explicitly the Thaumaturgy version of Blocks, see p. 265, or p. 276), and violates the spirit of the system left and right. I mean, if it were that easy to do day-long effects of that nature, the ability to make Enchanted Items that do Evocation effects wouldn't even be listed.
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Hmm. You appear to be correct here, my bad. My bad. I was going with the actual Potion description and missed that bit.
That's...really shaky, expecially on the Block (Wards are explicitly the Thaumaturgy version of Blocks, see p. 265, or p. 276), and violates the spirit of the system left and right. I mean, if it were that easy to do day-long effects of that nature, the ability to make Enchanted Items that do Evocation effects wouldn't even be listed.
But we're okay with getting a 12 perception at all? that's why i asked about skill increases using magic. It seems like someone could just whip out their "potion of guns 12" and go to town all day, which would make everyone want to be an alchemist. Potions clearly don't work like that in the books (Harry's are usually very short term)... so it's wierd that they would work like that here.
I can't find RAW support for it, but it seems like I've come across tons of player recommendations that potion duration start at scene-length or shorter.
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I think that potions can be used to achieve certain effects using skills as a guide to it's strength value - for instance an escape potion that allows you to move to any zone as if you had an athletics equal to the strength of the potion; I don't think it can boost a skill though, at least not in any significant way without causing damage - see biomancy:
potions can be used to boost strength, speed, perception, and other functions of biology— provided that the body being boosted can withstand the stresses of such an effort. Just because muscles have been supercharged to lift a small car doesn’t mean they’re built to withstand the damage that would do; inflicting consequences on the beneficiary to boost spell effectiveness is not uncommon (Torn Muscle Tissue, etc.)
So a potion could boost alertness by a little bit by creating a relevant aspect, but if your own perception is jumping into double digits, expect to suffer from some serious mental or physical issues whether it's paranoia as you can no longer see everywhere, or cataracts as the UV light toasted your suddenly incredibly sensitive lenses.
Improving your guns skill would do the same thing, if I were GM I would happily state that your character has suddenly realised how evil guns can be and is terrified of them, or he becomes so cocky that he spends the rest of the gun fight doing trick shots that knock peoples hats off, bounce guns out of peoples hands and so forth.
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I never said that would not have consequences. And yes, high-power potions could violate the spirit of the rules if used in a broken way. A few notes though:
1) Harry does stealth potions that last hours. So at least this one is possible.
2) It is even easier to use Thaumaturgy for similar effects. A thaumaturgist with a +4 focus and a +2 specialization could perform 10-11 shift thaumaturgies in his specialization without any additional preparation at all. When not in his specialization, he could only do 5-shift ones but he could easily make declarations to make up for it; a small thaumaturgy ritual takes less time than brewing a potion and doesn't take up one of your slots.
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So, I seem to be in a minority here, but this is how I'd deal with potions:
1) Appropriate item power specializations & focus items can increase base potion power - up to the normal maximum of twice your lore.
2) You can boost potion power past that via aspect invocations - but note that this category does *not* include skill-based declarations; every +2 power costs you a fate point. (Though you can offset this cost by accepting corresponding compels, as per normal - though note that it's recommended that PCs not accrue more than one point's worth of what I'll call "potion debt".)
3) If a potion replicates a skill, it is by default equivalent to a single mundane skill check - so a stealth potion might last for hours if you're using it on a long, boring, stake-out, but would last mere exchanges at best if used in the middle of a fight. A potion of hyper-aim (for guns skill) would entitle you to a single attack at the boosted value. A potion of escape grants you a single exchange's worth of movement. Etc. If you want the effect of multiple skill checks, buy more than one potion.