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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: meg_evonne on July 30, 2010, 01:04:44 PM

Title: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: meg_evonne on July 30, 2010, 01:04:44 PM
Despite flack, Stephanie Meyer's The Host from page 118 on has a strong female Heinlein style to it that I like. At least through page 200 where I am.  I refuse to duck.  Okay, who threw the tomato?
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Apocrypha on July 30, 2010, 01:14:34 PM
  Okay, who threw the tomato?

Not me, I threw the pineapple.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: KWPech on July 30, 2010, 02:29:37 PM
Huh? Sorry, I didnt hear you. I was working on loading the trebuchet.  ;)

Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: MoSeS on July 30, 2010, 03:16:15 PM
Personally I am a love/hate patron of Meyer, I hate most of the things that make Twilight popular, but having read the books, they ironically have much going for them as they do going against them. Her prose is not bad, it's not great like Anne Rice's is, but it's not bad considering she is pretty young. It is at least better than Stephen King's prose. Her character developement is pretty good, but Twilight mostly suffers from the dialogue and girlyness.

I have heard good things about The Host, I will have to give that one a whirl.

Considering that this is early in Meyer's career, maybe if the fame hasn't gone to her head, maybe she will mature into a great author.

*Trebuchet? I learned a knew type of catapult.

Interestingly enough:
While comparing Meyer to J. K. Rowling, Stephen King stated, "the real difference [between J. K. Rowling and Meyer] is that Jo Rowling is a terrific writer, and Stephenie Meyer can't write worth a darn. She's not very good."

Meyer was the second bestselling author of the decade, according to a list published by Amazon, beaten only by JK Rowling. Meyer had four books on the bestselling list, compared to Rowling, who had three.

Funny that King criticize's her prose when his prose is not so great and is light years behind great writer's like Anne Rice, Charles Dickens, JRR Tolkein, etc.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 30, 2010, 03:26:25 PM
Her prose is not bad, it's not great like Anne Rice,

I think you just made my head explode, dude.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: MoSeS on July 30, 2010, 03:31:43 PM
I think you just made my head explode, dude.

I had to fix that for clarification, it was a little ambiguous, and I added some more comments.

I agree that Rowling is a much better writer, but I have read King's writitng and he really isn't a very good writer so I am not sure where he gets off telling a girl almost half his age that her writing isn't very good.

Kind of like if I took a elementary school kids paper and told him it sucks, and that his writing is not as good as mine.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 30, 2010, 03:34:17 PM
I had to fix that for clarification, it was a little ambiguous.

I got what you meant; it's just the thought of considering Anne Rice's prose great makes my head hurt. Mind you, I could say the same for Dickens, against whom I bear a non-trivial grudge for breaking the omniscient narrator.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: MoSeS on July 30, 2010, 03:43:25 PM
Well to be honest I am probably not as well read as most, and of most that I have read Rice has been one of the better IMO and when I read her it always reminded me of Dickens style for some reason.

I have also read much of King and I kind feel the same about King as I do Meyer. It's like the both have potentially GREAT stories, but they also have an equal amount of shortcomings as the do quality material. (except King has had more time to improve but doesn't, in fact I think he get worse and worse)

I have read many classics as well such as Ernest Hemingway, etc. in school, so I have an idea of what is considered good prose.

To me Jim has a nice balance. Not overly pretentious (which Anne Rice might be a little), and not overly simple, but simple enough to enjoy, and not all over the place bouncing off the nuthouse walls like King.

Ironically Roland Deschain of Gilead is in my top 5 favorite characters....maybe......
ok I know he would be in top 5 book characters, but if I include super-heroes and movies, maybe not.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Starbeam on July 30, 2010, 04:43:46 PM
Personally I am a love/hate patron of Meyer, I hate most of the things that make Twilight popular, but having read the books, they ironically have much going for them as they do going against them. Her prose is not bad, it's not great like Anne Rice's is, but it's not bad considering she is pretty young. It is at least better than Stephen King's prose. Her character developement is pretty good, but Twilight mostly suffers from the dialogue and girlyness.

I have heard good things about The Host, I will have to give that one a whirl.

Considering that this is early in Meyer's career, maybe if the fame hasn't gone to her head, maybe she will mature into a great author.

*Trebuchet? I learned a knew type of catapult.

Interestingly enough:
While comparing Meyer to J. K. Rowling, Stephen King stated, "the real difference [between J. K. Rowling and Meyer] is that Jo Rowling is a terrific writer, and Stephenie Meyer can't write worth a darn. She's not very good."

Meyer was the second bestselling author of the decade, according to a list published by Amazon, beaten only by JK Rowling. Meyer had four books on the bestselling list, compared to Rowling, who had three.

Funny that King criticize's her prose when his prose is not so great and is light years behind great writer's like Anne Rice, Charles Dickens, JRR Tolkein, etc.
Meyer's writing is mediocre, which is okay for a YA book like Twilight.  Rice is extremely purple and verbose, with a lot of words that could really be cut, and really, she didn't get much better over time.  King knows how to write, and he does a really good job when he writes about writing, but he doesn't take his own advice most of the time.  And he's all over the place because he sits down and writes without much of any kind of plan.  I would think his editor is also somewhat at fault there, too, for not making him rewrite.  Though that's just a guess.  Rowling is decent, though she has her own problems, though those are more with the actual story than the writing, other than over using adverbs in dialogue tags.

On a somewhat related tangent, you really can't compare Rice, Dickens, Tolkien, and King.  Maybe King and Rice, because they are contemporaries, but the others are from different times with different writing styles.  And on knowing what's considered good prose because of classics--that can differ by opinion.  Plus something like Dickens might be considered a classic, and might write well enough, but he was very verbose.  He got paid by the word.

I would also take pretty much anything Stephen King says with a huge handful of salt because he's also said that he wishes he remembered writing Cujo cause he thinks that's one of his best books.  I've read a lot of his stuff; that one is probably the worst I've read.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: daranthered on July 30, 2010, 11:34:43 PM
The best I can say of Meyer's writing is that it's workmanlike.  It's the characters I really can't stand.

King's writing is actually pretty good, especially in relation to other bestselling authors out there.  His characters are some of the best developed I've ever read in stand alone books.  That he writes without a plan, I view simply as one way to approach writing.  You can't change how you write. 

Tolkien was a scholar of Middle-English, and it shows in his writing.  It's long on descriptions and speeches, and short on action.  If you think differently; you're thinking about the movies.  The rather dense writing is forgiven, when it is forgiven, because of the scope and idea of the novel.

In all the examples the important aspect is the story.  Meyer's story can, at best, be said to have a very narrow audience.  Both King and Tolkien tell very different types of stories, but they are interesting stories.  King, by using suspense, and Tolkien by sheer scale and almost mind numbing detail.

One of the ironic twists to a discussion like this is, that if you look at the nuts and bolts technical aspects of writing, J.K. Rowling usually comes out as the winner.  The series is written for children who are still learning sentence structure and vocabulary.  As a result, they were held to a very high standard of grammatical correctness.  The sentences are simple, true, but I think that makes what she did in creating the world she did  even more amazing.

Anne Rice scares me.  possibly because she's a born again fundamentalist vampire from beyond the Missisipp' So I wont say anything bad about her.

         
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Thrythlind on July 31, 2010, 12:49:31 AM
I haven't read Meyer yet, but Anne Rice's book is only the second one that I set down without ever finishing.  The other being Moby Dick.

I've read the Silmarillion multiple times for the fun of it, even the Book of Lost Tales and Unfinished Tales (rife with Tolkien's son putting in commentary all over the place so that it breaks up the text)...heck I got an unabridged audio CD copy of the Silmarillion which I read along with to make sure it was unabridged...

and enjoyed it

But Rice?

Rice...

I don't think there's enough money to make me pick up another of her books....ever....

One bout of torture was enough

Rice's Interview book just plods and plods and plods.  It's like an emotional black hole that just leaves you with a numb lack of interest where the only thing keeping you going is a sheer determination to finish any book you start reading.

Seriously, she's the Mordor of the writing world and I'm not going back into that.

As to King, his writing style seems to be somewhat inconsistent (some parts are incredibly more technically competent than others) but I'm wondering if that's not on purpose.  One thing I can say, I thoroughly enjoy most of his stories.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Enjorous on July 31, 2010, 04:48:41 PM
Read this topic and my head just exploded. I don't think I could post a reply right now without getting banned.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 31, 2010, 05:39:47 PM
I haven't read Meyer yet, but Anne Rice's book is only the second one that I set down without ever finishing.

*cheeerlead*cheerlead*cheerlead*

Quote
 The other being Moby Dick.

...darn. And you were doing so well.

Moby Dick is awesome, it's like the Cryptonomicon of the 19th century, and also does amazing pacing things.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Biffy Pyro on August 01, 2010, 07:11:07 PM
I had to fix that for clarification, it was a little ambiguous, and I added some more comments.

I agree that Rowling is a much better writer, but I have read King's writitng and he really isn't a very good writer so I am not sure where he gets off telling a girl almost half his age that her writing isn't very good.

Kind of like if I took a elementary school kids paper and told him it sucks, and that his writing is not as good as mine.

1) JK Rowling is NOT a good writer, she is popular there is a difference, for one her constant use of deus ex machina (roughly translated "gods in the machine") excludes her from ever being great and her books often suffer from pace and clarity issues especially her later ones.

2) the same goes for stephanie meyer from what i hear although i have never read her books.

I don't hate twilight per se but i hate the massive amounts of attention it gets and the fans
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Enjorous on August 01, 2010, 07:50:51 PM
I have also read much of King and I kind feel the same about King as I do Meyer. It's like the both have potentially GREAT stories, but they also have an equal amount of shortcomings as the do quality material. (except King has had more time to improve but doesn't, in fact I think he get worse and worse)

I have to fundamentally disagree with this statement. Yes some of Kings books are long winded, wordy, twisting, etc. But he has all the elements necessary to tell a story correctly, his characters always develop naturally (even when they do take a long while to make basic changes), conflict that develops from page one. Take The Gunslinger for example conflict is established on the first line. "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed." Meyer does very little of this. Twilight for example has no real hard hitting conflict until several hundred pages in, the character development is almost non existent and when it does exist it is very artificial. A character going from avoidant to co-dependent in the course of a few months is absurd.

I have read many classics as well such as Ernest Hemingway, etc. in school, so I have an idea of what is considered good prose.

Hemingway is not a good example of good prose. He's a reporter at heart and it shows in his lexicon and syntax. For good prose look to: Twain (for his use of dialect) Orwell, Steinbeck, and for someone writing in a similar time and style Jack London has much better prose than Hemingway

To me Jim has a nice balance. Not overly pretentious (which Anne Rice might be a little), and not overly simple, but simple enough to enjoy, and not all over the place bouncing off the nuthouse walls like King.

I have to agree that King does tend to bounce from place to place, It comes to mind. But as darenthered said he writes without scope, he doesn't limit himself to one character or one particular event. A lot of his books take place over long periods of time with the build up happening slowly. Very rarely does he start in medias res as Jim does.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: jeno on August 01, 2010, 07:52:06 PM
1) JK Rowling is NOT a good writer, she is popular there is a difference

JK Rowling is a successful writer. Her world building was superb and her stories entertained people from all over the age spectrum. The sales for Harry Potter all over the world were astronomical, especially for a kids' series. Until I'm able to say the same, I think I'm gonna hold back from throwing stones. :/

And for that matter - Stephanie Meyer is a successful writer. She had a target demographic and she exploited it perfectly, whether or not that was what she meant to do. For all the crap we like to lob her way she is still a published, successful, widely known author.

I'm interested in learning from the successes of these women. Do they have their flaws? Of course. Are they still crazy successful authors? Hell yeah. And frankly, it's studying their accomplishments that can help us, not sulking over the flaws that their agents and editors and publishers and readers didn't care much about.

...and if they did care, it wasn't enough to hurt their sales.  :D
 
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Biffy Pyro on August 01, 2010, 10:09:10 PM
JK Rowling is a successful writer. Her world building was superb and her stories entertained people from all over the age spectrum. The sales for Harry Potter all over the world were astronomical, especially for a kids' series. Until I'm able to say the same, I think I'm gonna hold back from throwing stones. :/

And for that matter - Stephanie Meyer is a successful writer. She had a target demographic and she exploited it perfectly, whether or not that was what she meant to do. For all the crap we like to lob her way she is still a published, successful, widely known author.

I'm interested in learning from the successes of these women. Do they have their flaws? Of course. Are they still crazy successful authors? Hell yeah. And frankly, it's studying their accomplishments that can help us, not sulking over the flaws that their agents and editors and publishers and readers didn't care much about.

...and if they did care, it wasn't enough to hurt their sales.
 

i wasn't throwing stones, just stating an opinion, Rowling did a very good job of capturing the imagination of a generation and she marketed very well, and did a lot of things that are vital to becoming successful but successful does not equal good in terms of writing quality. I love the books, have read them several times and still enjoy them now but it is not studying their accomplishments that aspiring writers should be doing its studying how she writes, and her use of bad story devices, poor characterisation and lack of limitations on the powers of the characters (other than good manners) takes away from the story. Her use of deus ex machina is the worst part, she sets up situations that cannot be solved until something completely unexpected and unpredictable happens, for example: in the last book when harry has to kill voldemort she drops in the deathly hallows, without them harry would never have been able to kill voldemort, or when harry gets the philosophers stone out of the mirror, that was a deus ex machina, or when he pulls the sword of gryffindor out of the sorting hat, or when his parents come out of voldemorts wand and allow him to escape, the list goes on. the main reason she is successful is that she found a story that spoke to the adolescent emotions of everyone "do I belong?"

she got her market dead on and deserves to be congratulated for that, but you cannot deny her use of poor story devices. aspiring writers should look at both the flaws and and the good points, that is the only way to learn
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: daranthered on August 01, 2010, 10:18:30 PM
Quote
I'm interested in learning from the successes of these women. Do they have their flaws? Of course. Are they still crazy successful authors? Hell yeah. And frankly, it's studying their accomplishments that can help us, not sulking over the flaws that their agents and editors and publishers and readers didn't care much about.

If you hope to match their success, you must realize that what initially got them published was luck.  What made them successful was luck, and good marketing.  The same goes for many writers mentioned  in this thread.  

I love Mr. Butcher's story about crashing an invitation only writers, publishers, and agents mixer. http://www.jim-butcher.com/jim/ (http://www.jim-butcher.com/jim/)

My point being, learn to write as well as you can.  Don't make intentional mistakes for styles sake.  Ultimately it's networking and luck that get you published.  And don't write anything like Meyer's book.  There's a glut of that type of thing in the markets right now.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: jeno on August 01, 2010, 11:26:01 PM
If you hope to match their success, you must realize that what initially got them published was luck.  What made them successful was luck, and good marketing.  The same goes for many writers mentioned  in this thread...

My point being, learn to write as well as you can.  Don't make intentional mistakes for styles sake.  Ultimately it's networking and luck that get you published.  And don't write anything like Meyer's book.  There's a glut of that type of thing in the markets right now.


Oh, I agree completely.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 01, 2010, 11:55:06 PM
JK Rowling is a successful writer. Her world building was superb and her stories entertained people from all over the age spectrum.

i would be inclined to say that JKR's worldbuilding is largely derived; an awful lot of that world is taken for a long tradition of classic boarding school stories.  The single stroke of genius there is that using magic to set aside what makes your kids who go to boarding school Special short-circuits the way the classic boarding-school story is usually inherently doing nasty classist/racist/sexist things. I find the magical side of her world-building pretty shoddy, tbh.  (Nobody dares mention the dark lord's name, but everyone knows what it is ?  And how exactly does a secret society of villains identifying themselves with tattoos not get picked up by any half-way competent policing in short order.

Quote
I'm interested in learning from the successes of these women. Do they have their flaws? Of course. Are they still crazy successful authors? Hell yeah. And frankly, it's studying their accomplishments that can help us, not sulking over the flaws that their agents and editors and publishers and readers didn't care much about.

It would be nice if it worked that way. I am not at all convinced to what extent it does; it would be interesting to have some sort of statistically detailed survey of how much of authors who a) get published b) make a career out of writing and c) are bestsellers is raw luck and how much is planning.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Piotr1600 on August 02, 2010, 02:04:36 AM
Well, IMO it wasn't just "luck and marketing" that got Rowling and/or Meyers published.

They both had to at least conceive and then write a story that connected with their audience in the first place.
That's a matter of skill & perseverance.
Heavy on the  perseverance.

Those things had to take place 100% prior to any 'luck' or 'marketing'.
Virtually every author professionally published will have some story variant of how much sheer perseverance it took to get noticed and published.

Luck plays into it here - Once they had something to sell, and that something was recognized by *someone* reading the slush pile  (or however it happened for them) as "Hey! This has a market - I can make some cash with this stuff!"

THEN the marketing comes in.
And, generally speaking, the real big marketing isn't done by the author. It's done by the publisher. 


And while I would not say that either authors works are the kind of thing where one starts reading and cannot put it down because of the gripping narrative, or deathless prose, (or whatever superlative works for you), it isn't exactly "bad".   (I've browsed the slush pile before. The word is usually dreck. Or gawdawful. Or "Pleasemakeitstopnooo!")

Both authors works tap into a certain commonality of human experience, and despite the writers limitations, they manage to do it well enough to sell boatloads of books.

The Backstreet Boys aren't Bach. But they are exceptional for what they are

Ditto Rowling & Meyer.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Biffy Pyro on August 02, 2010, 02:10:24 AM
Well, IMO it wasn't just "luck and marketing" that got Rowling and/or Meyers published.

They both had to at least conceive and then write a story that connected with their audience in the first place.
That's a matter of skill & perseverance.
Heavy on the  perseverance.

Those things had to take place 100% prior to any 'luck' or 'marketing'.
Virtually every author professionally published will have some story variant of how much sheer perseverance it took to get noticed and published.

Luck plays into it here - Once they had something to sell, and that something was recognized by *someone* reading the slush pile  (or however it happened for them) as "Hey! This has a market - I can make some cash with this stuff!"

THEN the marketing comes in.
And, generally speaking, the real big marketing isn't done by the author. It's done by the publisher. 


And while I would not say that either authors works are the kind of thing where one starts reading and cannot put it down because of the gripping narrative, or deathless prose, (or whatever superlative works for you), it isn't exactly "bad".   (I've browsed the slush pile before. The word is usually dreck. Or gawdawful. Or "Pleasemakeitstopnooo!")

Both authors works tap into a certain commonality of human experience, and despite the writers limitations, they manage to do it well enough to sell boatloads of books.

The Backstreet Boys aren't Bach. But they are exceptional for what they are

Ditto Rowling & Meyer.

i agree that they had to conceive and write the books and that they had good ideas, but jk rowling herself admits it was luck as she gt publish the second time she sent it away, i could quote but i can't be bothered to did out my 2010 copy of the writers and artist yearbook
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: MoSeS on August 02, 2010, 03:51:26 PM
Holy Cow...... I have never made a comment and then come back after the weekend to see soo many good replies.

Everyone makes some really good points.

@Starbeam
My comparing of Rice, Dickens, Tolkien, and King was a really bad example.

I guess it equates to comparing the war tactics of Ghenghis Khan, King Arthur, Colonel Custard, Hitler, Napoleon, and Alexander the Great. All very different times and technology.

@Thrythlind
I struggled and never finished the Silmilarion because I bought some old copy from a library (green hard back with some gold symbol on it, I lost it though) and I struggled with the English in it, I think it was an early translation or not translated at all. I don't know if they have different translations of this?

as for Rice, Interview is probably the least interesting in the series, the best one is Memnoch the Devil, if you ever read only one Anne Rice book, that should be the one. That story is just kind of awesome bunch of FAUSTness going on.

@Biffy Pyro
Quote
I don't hate twilight per se but i hate the massive amounts of attention it gets and the fans

I think that's what a lot of people dislike about it, the huge following from young people.

However, no one really gets ticked when there is a Pokemon fad or Dragon Ball Z fad, but when it hits close to home for us long time vampire/werewolf fans, I think that's what bugs us.

On the same token, more power to those successful authors for figuring out what sells.

@Enjourous
Quote
Hemingway is not a good example of good prose. He's a reporter at heart and it shows in his lexicon and syntax. For good prose look to: Twain (for his use of dialect) Orwell, Steinbeck, and for someone writing in a similar time and style Jack London has much better prose than Hemingway

Totally agree, again, I was kind of ranting and just pulling names out of the air, Hemingway was a bad example. All you named are WAY WAY better examples.
Thank you.

And I agree with your first statement mostly too. I just feel like King is over-rated, but that is probably my bias because the entire time I was reading the Dark Tower I was thinking Jebus Chris!, what the hell is going on, and then at times it was like, ok now he seems to be sobering up (the author i mean) then it's like oh no, i think he just dropped some acid.

Then as someone else stated, it's like he never knows how to end the books, he just makes up some terrible ending when he gets tired of writing the story, and I get that with King "its all about the journey" but for me a book needs a good conclusion, otherwise it kind of ruins the whole thing for me.

As for King's prose, maybe his prose isn't that bad and I just can't see past the story.

@Piotr1600

Agreed! I couldn't have said this better myself. I think you hit the nail right on the head.



Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 02, 2010, 04:00:53 PM
However, no one really gets ticked when there is a Pokemon fad or Dragon Ball Z fad,

I certainly do, when the young 'uns in question talk about those fads as if that's when gaming started and need some curmudgeonly cane-shaking at and being told to get off my lawn.

Quote
On the same token, more power to those successful authors for figuring out what sells.

I am entirely unconvinced they did figure anything out, though. The more people in the publishing industry, writers, editors, agents and others, I hear talk, the more convinced I become that ultimately William Goldman is right and nobody knows anything.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Enjorous on August 02, 2010, 04:04:36 PM
And I agree with your first statement mostly too. I just feel like King is over-rated, but that is probably my bias because the entire time I was reading the Dark Tower I was thinking Jebus Chris!, what the hell is going on, and then at times it was like, ok now he seems to be sobering up (the author i mean) then it's like oh no, i think he just dropped some acid. Then as someone else stated, it's like he never knows how to end the books, he just makes up some terrible ending when he gets tired of writing the story, and I get that with King "its all about the journey" but for me a book needs a good conclusion, otherwise it kind of ruins the whole thing for me. As for prose, maybe he's prose isn't that bad and I just can't see past the twisted stories he writes.

Well I'll say that King doesn't remember writing Cujo he was so messed up and he's admitted as much. As for the Tower, it is about the journey and it is about the cycle. "Ka is a wheel" and it comes full circle, with enough of a change that one could  see that the end of the series is the beginning of the final journey. But a lot of his books do conclude the story arc, but are always somewhat open on the characters in them.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: MoSeS on August 02, 2010, 04:11:33 PM
I am entirely unconvinced they did figure anything out, though.

Ok ok....maybe figuring out was again another poor choice of words.

I guess what I meant was more to power to them for hitting what equates to the author's LOTTO.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: MoSeS on August 02, 2010, 04:17:15 PM
Well I'll say that King doesn't remember writing Cujo he was so messed up and he's admitted as much. As for the Tower, it is about the journey and it is about the cycle. "Ka is a wheel" and it comes full circle, with enough of a change that one could  see that the end of the series is the beginning of the final journey. But a lot of his books do conclude the story arc, but are always somewhat open on the characters in them.

Exactly, but unlike the movie Ground Hog's Day (forgive the bad example) or Run Lola Run, we know that with each cycle, he or she get's closer and closer to getting it right.

However with the Dark Tower it's like we are only seeing day 3 of a 7 day book. (i am just using day figuratively here, could be week or month or year if you want, or any numbers)

And I get that it leaves something to the imagination, but I am not completely satisfied with that ending and I think it was kind of a cop-out ending.

The cool thing about Run Lola Run and Groundhog's Day is that we get to see where they make correction in the loop each time. With Dark Tower, King ingeniusly lets the reader imagine what happens so that King doesn't have to do the work.

I also get that sometimes endings are meant to be open ended, like the recent Inception, but in my heart I feel like King used it as a scapegoat to just get away from the series because he couldn't tie it up. Because honestly, what happens when Roland does get it right? I don't think King knows.

I think another flaw is why does the loop begin half into the story, it doesn't actually come full circle but more like a question mark shape. Therefore are we actually experiencing the very first occurance of the loop? since we experience the events before and outside of the loop. I think Dark Tower is riddled with fundamental story arc flaws. Not to mention I am not crazy about his heavy borrowing of artifacts from Marvel, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. I guess the are meant to make me go "awesome, light sabers" but for me it's more like " WTF, Light Sabers!?!"

Anyhow, I guess this discussion is probably better suited for some Stephen King forum, but I only care to write in the Jim Butcher forums.  ;D
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 02, 2010, 04:33:57 PM
However with the Dark Tower it's like we are only seeing day 3 of a 7 day book. (i am just using day figuratively here, could be week or month or year if you want, or any numbers) And I get that it leaves something to the imagination, but I am not completely satisfied with that ending and I think it was kind of a cop-out ending.

The cool thing about Run Lola Run and Groundhog's Day is that we get to see where they make correction in the loop each time. With Dark Tower, King ingeniusly lets the reader imagine what happens so that King doesn't have to do the work.

I also get that sometimes endings are meant to be open ended, like the recent Inception, but in my heart I feel like King used it as a scapegoat to just get away from the series because he couldn't tie it up. Because honestly, what happens when Roland does get it right? I don't think King knows.

I think another flaw is why does the loop begin half into the story, it doesn't actually come full circle but more like a question mark shape.

Major Dark Tower spoilers:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: MoSeS on August 02, 2010, 04:42:33 PM
Oh, that sounds like a good theory.

To be honest, I kind of quit thinking about the deeper meaning because I was really turned off by many of the silly events.

I almost quit reading it after he put himself in as a character, but only because of the way he did it.

Really just a lot of other little things.

I also feel like a lot of the crap going on is pointless.

Like Mordrid, his role inevitably was pretty moot.

But enough about Dark Tower, this thread was suppose to be about.......well I don't remember now.  :P

*Oh yeah, about Stephanie Meyer's book The Host
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Enjorous on August 02, 2010, 04:54:06 PM
I agree completely. It's probably why I liked the series so much, it wasn't tied up in a neat package, but it was a do it yourself kit so you could put together your ending.

@neurovore
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Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: daranthered on August 02, 2010, 09:47:27 PM


As my last thought regarding writing a story good enough for publication; it seems to me that in a world of roughly six billion people, about eight billion want to be writers. 

There's a lot of manuscripts out there that should get published on the merits. 

Figuring out what the market wants is a publishers job.  A writer should write what they write best.  Rowling could never have written a story about an angsty teen girl, and her vampire not-lover.  She's a Classicist, so she wrote a story with a lot of classical elements.   
 
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Tribblechomper on August 02, 2010, 11:12:39 PM
Huh? Sorry, I didnt hear you. I was working on loading the trebuchet.  ;)



I was setting up the vuvuzela on your alarm clock...
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: MoSeS on August 03, 2010, 01:16:15 PM
LOL.

What's ironic is the topic of this thread is "despite the flack I'm going to get...." but I don't think anyone has given meg_evonne any flack.

I think there was more flack for mentioning The Dark Tower, Anne Rice, and JK Rowling.  

:-\ ??? :o :P
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: meg_evonne on August 03, 2010, 06:49:18 PM
I've been at a writer's camp for two weeks and returned to find the responses on this thread.  I'm so pleased that we can have such wonderful discussion from both sides of an issue and still expand our knowledge on the publishing world.

You guys really are the best!  Thank you for your thoughts and your civility.  And I love your avatar MoSeS.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Zolt on August 10, 2010, 03:54:31 AM
@Thrythlind
I struggled and never finished the Silmilarion because I bought some old copy from a library (green hard back with some gold symbol on it, I lost it though) and I struggled with the English in it, I think it was an early translation or not translated at all. I don't know if they have different translations of this?
God, that takes me back... The Silmarillon was the first book I ever read in English, back when I was 14 or so... Picked it up on a school trip to the UK. Horrible. Took me maybe 3 months to make any sense of it. On the up side: any book I ever read after that was easy by comparison.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Thrythlind on August 10, 2010, 06:29:46 AM


@Thrythlind
I struggled and never finished the Silmilarion because I bought some old copy from a library (green hard back with some gold symbol on it, I lost it though) and I struggled with the English in it, I think it was an early translation or not translated at all. I don't know if they have different translations of this?




Silmarillion's original language is English.

as to the mention of JK Rowling, she did some of the absolute best foreshadowing I've seen in contemporary fiction
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Starbeam on August 10, 2010, 11:45:34 AM
God, that takes me back... The Silmarillon was the first book I ever read in English, back when I was 14 or so... Picked it up on a school trip to the UK. Horrible. Took me maybe 3 months to make any sense of it. On the up side: any book I ever read after that was easy by comparison.
I still haven't finished reading it.  Although part of that is picking up other books I have more interest in.  And because it's written so much like the Bible that it can be difficult to get through.  I know people who would keep a notebook to list all the characters to keep them straight.
Title: Re: despite the flack I'm going to get....
Post by: Tribblechomper on August 10, 2010, 03:30:59 PM
LOL.

What's ironic is the topic of this thread is "despite the flack I'm going to get...." but I don't think anyone has given meg_evonne any flack.

I've been at a writer's camp for two weeks and returned to find the responses on this thread.  I'm so pleased that we can have such wonderful discussion from both sides of an issue and still expand our knowledge on the publishing world.

You guys really are the best!  Thank you for your thoughts and your civility.  And I love your avatar MoSeS.



Then allow me to be the first to give meg_evonne some Flack:
(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/830/albumtheverybestofrober.jpg) (http://img413.imageshack.us/i/albumtheverybestofrober.jpg/)

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