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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: finnmckool on July 30, 2010, 02:30:56 AM
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Get your attention? No seriously, help me out here...
Can you do it in this game? Can you make a bar of fire to smite people with? Cuz that's a heck of a game changer.
"I choose swords for the duel."
"Alright." Fwoosh!
"I retract that."
But seriously. Possible? Practical? How?
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Wouldn't that just be an attack without range and with shifts put towards duration? Describe it as fire encompassing your hands or a blazing blade of sunlight...in the end it's a damaging attack that you would want to maintain, correct? Or am I missing something from your question?
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Maybe. Probably. I do have a hard time not over complicating this system. But do you get something for making it non-ranged? Does that make it harder? Does it make tough to tether it to your hand?
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This is an example in YS. The conclusion is put an aspect on a real sword and tag. Making a sword out of pure will is not an optimal use of your power.
The reason is because this is fate and everything is just shifts of power.
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Well I'm not making a sword so much as a bar of heat. Would it need a "hilt" focus item to come out of? To be tethered to?
And I disagree with their assessment that it's better to have a real sword. They're illegal to carry, hard to conceal and sometimes your bad guys don't let you keep your goodies.
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You don't get any discount for making it not ranged, although it would change the skill that defends against it. If you were wanting to create an honest-to-goodness sword, then John is correct, it's a lot of will, focus, and bother for something you could just carry.
That said, though, I could see many situations where lugging a sword is impractical or simply out of the question, and thought the very same thing when I read the section on summoning a sword in the first place.
Now, if you wanted to house rule something that gave more oomph to a close-combat spell, beyond what skills would reasonably defend against it, then you could make it a more traditional melee weapon attack and allow any Inhuman (or better) Strength bonuses you might have ("naturally" or via spell or item) add to it. Continuing with this, I could also see some argument for allowing certain stunts, as normally applicable to hand-to-hand implements being allowed to work with your "lightsaber", but that would be the group's call, not something already present in-game.
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Well I'm not making a sword so much as a bar of heat. Would it need a "hilt" focus item to come out of? To be tethered to?
And I disagree with their assessment that it's better to have a real sword. They're illegal to carry, hard to conceal and sometimes your bad guys don't let you keep your goodies.
Maybe in your mind. Mechanically in this game though, what I said is true. If you don't like that, you have 3 options.
1. Make it an enchanted item.
2. Model a lightsaber power after "claws" or "breath weapon" and make it an IoP
3. House rule in benefits for melee evocation over ranged and lasting effects over single exchange casting.
I'd recommend 1. Statting an IoP takes effort. Enchanted items are easy. Make it Weapon 4 and claim its uses are limited because it runs out of charge (which is essentially true anyway for enchanted items.
Id also read YS more carefully.
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What I'm after is less a magic sword and more of flame spell to hit people in the head with, and cut things with.
I'm literally trying to make a lightsaber spell because I am a nerd and mine or other characters might want it. Also I thought it was interesting. Because I don't want magic in the form of a sword. I want to hit you with fire in the face. I don't want a "blade" so much as burning thing of smacking.
Because I thought about it, and i don't know how you'd "tether" it to a spot...I can see how magic sword is one way to do it, but that's making a sword, when I want the burning to go with it.
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Just make an attack spell, add in duration, and define it as 'Flame Sword', with the inherent limitation that it's melee range only.
I don't see how it's really any more complex than that.
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For your convenience:
Jedi Knight:
Powers:
[-2] channeling(spirit)
[-2] ritual (psychomancy)
[-3] refinement
Skills
Superb: discipline
Great: lore, weapons
Good: conviction , athletics, endurance
Fair: might, rapport, presence
Average: intimidation, stealth, empathy
Rotes:
Force Push: weapon 3, 1 zone
Impale: applies the aspect "propelled by force pull"
Force Repel: Block 4 or Armor 2
Force Speed: applies aspect "force reflexes" to self
Enchanted items:
Lightsaber: weapon 4, 21 uses
Jedi Robe: block 8 or armor 4, 15 uses
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Read YS. Your just asking how to attack with magic, which is as basic as it gets. Decide what weapon rating you want and roll conviction and discipline to generate power and control.
Logically a lightsaber or flame sword would act as weapon 4. So you roll fudge dice + conviction bonus. Every point below 4 gives you one extra mental stress. If you roll 4 or above you take one mental stress. Roll again + discipline to control the spell. Every point below four is a point of fallout your GM can allocate. Roll 4 or higher, you controlled it.
But again, it doesn't sound like you've read YS yet so I'd do That before asking these questions.
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Easy killer. I have. I got it right here nicely bound and smelling all nice and new booky, and on my lappy as a PDF. Had it for a while. It's the flame spell bound to my hand, part. Sure I'm over complicating it a bit but who hasn't been guilty of that on these boards, it's a fairly common problem/response for people new to the system. I just was floating it as an idea. Because it's fire that STOPS and moves with my HAND. That seems a bit more complex to me. Does it not to you? Sure I could reduce it down to as simple as shifts of damage in the attack, but should there or should there not be extra shifts involved in discipline, say, for such CONTROL of such heat? Would THAT not be a reasonable question?
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Oh and your Jedi Knight write up is neat. Very KOTOR. Hmm...interesting thought for GMPC/NPC
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Easy killer. I have. I got it right here nicely bound and smelling all nice and new booky, and on my lappy as a PDF. Had it for a while. It's the flame spell bound to my hand, part. Sure I'm over complicating it a bit but who hasn't been guilty of that on these boards, it's a fairly common problem/response for people new to the system. I just was floating it as an idea. Because it's fire that STOPS and moves with my HAND. That seems a bit more complex to me. Does it not to you? Sure I could reduce it down to as simple as shifts of damage in the attack, but should there or should there not be extra shifts involved in discipline, say, for such CONTROL of such heat? Would THAT not be a reasonable question?
The whole thing is a reasonable question. The most basic answer is: Nope. By the rules, there really is nothing more than is needed than writing down a spell name, assigning shifts to it, hitting those shifts with your required roll, and you're done. Nearly everything else is narrative fun and flavor and your justifications for it. There are a few exceptions to this (like turning it into a zone or spray effect, for example, to "Force push" multiple battle droids...er Red Court vampires...and what element you wanted to tie it to for what effects), but by-and-large, the by the book response is what John was saying.
Now, reading what you're wanting, however, what I am seeing is that you are not only asking if there is more, but are in fact wanting more. At least that is the impression I am getting.
If that is the case, you're going to have to house rule it...which is really the butter atop the FATE bread. The game is meant to be house ruled, in fact it begs for it in the form of aspects, and how they interact with your game.
The house ruling could be as simple as just saying "this spell "tethers" to my hand and I call it a lightsaber!" Or it can get far more complex. You could, as John also pointed out, stat it via an Item of Power. You could link it with an aspect inherent to the character ("My Father's lightsaber"). You could stat it as a spell with all sorts of exceptions and unique rules (like getting to use the Weapons skill rather than Discipline for targeting -- which would mean three skills interacting with the spell: Conviction, Discipline, and Weapons; although you could keep it at two if Discipline is modified by Weapons, which would likely be much simpler).
In the end, I think what you really need to be asking at this point is: How are you wanting to see it in your game? By the rules, or more accurate and "faithful" to the source? If it is by the rules, then you need to stop trying to fit the minute details in (like tethering to your hand or "controlling" the heat...that's all part of the spell's controlling roll and subsequent narrative description). If it is more faitherful to the source, then you need to determine just how "accurate" you are wanting to get. Just how potent would a "lightsaber" need to be to cut through steel? (That can, in part, be answered by taking a look at the "Breaking Through Things" application of Might, by the way.) I would also recommend, that if you are going the route of "faithful to the source" the item be done as an Item of Power. That seems to be the most likely candidate to create an actual lightsaber, although it would no longer be a spell, at that point, and rather an actual item...
And of course, none of this addresses its ability to deflect/redirect "blaster" bolts...
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sometimes in a fight against fire susceptible enemies - or against animals as they are often afraid of fire, my wizard uses a spell that sheathes his staff in fire, which he then uses as melee weapon.
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Honestly I just want a cool spell for the Warden GMPC to pull out of his pocket to make the players poop a littler. You know.. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. But you know players, they see YOU do it, they'll say, "My what a fine idea." Therefore...I need to know how. So maybe not an item of power...but an enchanted item, like a focus or what not that the spell is rote-tastically tied to. Because this isn't about bringing Star Wars into Dresden...Star Wars is a mythos that exists here, and this guy is gonna see that idea and go..."You know...I can DO that. I THINK I can do that. Don't know why I COULDN'T do that." Because I really do see awesome logistical applications to that. It's a fire beam spell (a la Luccio) with WAY less potential for collateral damage. It cuts through things instead of BLASTING through them. And like I say...in a duel...go on. Parry it.
And the deflecting thing is all in the user's reflexes, and has little to do with the weapon. Which raises an interesting point. Most people don't try and deflect fire spells with fire because who shoots a bullet at a bullet? But if you have this thing in your hand that persists and is MADE of fire...fire ball baseball...there goes less property damage.
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I think my greater problem is things are about MORE than the power you're summoning. It's about complexity. Harry talks about the difference all the time. And complexity is a discipline roll. So why would there not be a greater discipline to do something that has lots of non-numbers related advantages, but nothing to do with it's strength? It's duration. It's bending physics to your will. Why wouldn't that be a slightly higher discipline roll? Seems reasonable and in the rules and I'm talking crazy here so why not?
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There are a few ways to do this without breaking the rules as far as I can see, and by reading this thread, it seems like you don't like either answer.
1.) A maneuver with duration. This will give the visual effect you want but doesn't do very much for you mechanically.
2.) An attack. Contrary to what other posters have suggested, attacks do not get the option of increased duration (grapple style spells are a different matter). Every round you want to have this sword going, its another casting. There would be no benefit to making it a close range only spell, save for the lower likelihood of collateral damage.
3.) An enchanted item to either attack or maneuver. This one has the same effects as the previous two suggestions, but it doesn't take stress to use it for a number of charges, and might be the way you'd do it if you wanted the warden to use it a lot.
Alternatively, you could give him extra powers to simulate this ability.
1.) He could have a sponsored magic that lets him do conjuration at evocations speed and methods.
2.) He could be given a custom power of "Flame Sword" that would be about -2 refresh and allows him to summon up a weapon: 4 sword of fire as a supplemental action.
If you don't like any of those, you just have to house rule it, which brings me to my next point. Don't use GMPC's. Just don't. Its a conflict of interests, and just way too much of a temptation for abuse. As the GM, you have to interpret the rules fairly and accurately, but if you try to play as a GMPC, you are also motivated to exploit the rules to do cool stuff. Also, GMPC's tend to hog the spotlight away from the actual PC's, which is just no fun for them.
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As Luminos said, GMPC's aren't generally a good idea.
Still as as an NPC you wouldn't need stats as much, I'd just rule that he kick-ass jedi style and leave it at that. Just narrate his turns without rolling.
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Easy killer. I have. I got it right here nicely bound and smelling all nice and new booky, and on my lappy as a PDF. Had it for a while. It's the flame spell bound to my hand, part. Sure I'm over complicating it a bit but who hasn't been guilty of that on these boards, it's a fairly common problem/response for people new to the system. I just was floating it as an idea. Because it's fire that STOPS and moves with my HAND. That seems a bit more complex to me. Does it not to you? Sure I could reduce it down to as simple as shifts of damage in the attack, but should there or should there not be extra shifts involved in discipline, say, for such CONTROL of such heat? Would THAT not be a reasonable question?
There isn't. If you want there to be you have to house rule it.
Honestly I'd just give your GMPC a sword of the cross, reduce the discount by one since it's retractable and call it a day.
But your desire to bend and break rules to make your GMPC more powerful than a PC is going to alienate your players real fast.
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An alternative might be a maneouvre
3 shifts for a maneouvre + 1 to make it sticky for the scene.
Flaming fists
Shrouds hand in fire to aid combat
4 shifts (3 maneouvre+1sticky)
Effect: adds sticky for scene "flaming hands" aspect to target. This will allow 1 free tag to add +2 damage on fists hit or may be tagged for additional hits. Can also be compelled.
Flaming sword is just a similar spell with different special effects. It would not normally be able to use weapons rather than fists because that would be simulating a stunt.
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Huh...luminous, you are absolutely correct...the ability to boost duration is not listed as an evocation option for attack...that was in my head. Clearly, I'll have to house rule that so there can be the "cloudkill" equivalent.
As for GMPCs, I disagree, provided the ref can handle the temptation. GMPCs are wonderful for dolling out information, getting themselves into trouble for the PCs to rescue, and, when the time is right, to die dramatically and emotionally at the end of a really tough bad guy's...whatever...enabling the GM to show off a powerful whatsit they had planned without turning a PC into a grease spot. Now, if you can't resist the temptation, don't use them. But blanketing the concept of a long-term, reoccurring, heroically-allied NPC as a bad idea isn't accurate. They certainly don't work for everyone, but few things in gaming does work for everyone.
Back to the OP...I think luminos had the right idea with the new power of "Flame Sword" for -2 refresh. That would answer all of your wants for it, at least as I am understanding them...and granted, I've not finished my morning coffee, so "understanding" might be a stretch...
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Also remember that if you go the spell way, you are likely to run up against first law issues. I'm a player in Luminos' seattle game and I've got a rote spell that summons a sword (Conjuration at Evocation Speed through use of Soulfire), and I am not allowed to kill mortals with it. Also, remember, if you go the conjuration method, you are summoning a sword. So it should deal damage as a sword. No weapon 7 sword that lasts a bunch of exchanges, more like a weapon 3 sword which lasts all scene.
Here is my rote spell, remember, i've got soulfire so Im allowed to use a conjuration effect from thaumaturgy at evocation speed.
Xífos to̱n Ouranó̱n Sword of the Heavens
This spell uses the power of Soulfire to forge a blade with the Spirit of the caster.
Type: Thaumaturgy, Conjuration
Complexity: 5 Shifts
Duration: One Scene, could be longer (until the Sun rises), but its supposed to be something you call from nothingness not have on you at all times.
Effect: This conjures a blade of pure spirit from the creator's soul, it has a weapon rating of 3. It is made of soulfire, and is thus a very powerful weapon indeed. It satisfies any Catch requiring a Holy source of stress, and it downgrades one rank of toughness (From Mythic to Supernatural, from Supernatural to Inhuman, and so on).
Description: Motes of Light gather in a pillar growing out of the casters closed fist, becoming solid and more real. The motes flare a searingly white light, and a chime of metal issues forth from the newly created blade. The sword appears to be made of molten silver, which shifts and flows while still maintaining its shape.
Also, I have had this thing dispelled once, just remember its a possibility that somebody will counterspell it.
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As a sort-of related question, is it possible to create a weapon by invoking an aspect for an effect? Or with a declaration?
For instance, I could imagine that if a fight breaks out then someone could roll their alertness to declare that there are some pool cues available on the table, however that is an improvised weapon.
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If you have an aspect like "Always Armed" you can invoke it to create a weapon.
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You could do so as an assessment as well, though having an aspect relating to it makes it more likely to succeed.
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You can always attempt a declaration to put pool cues, a broken bottle, an empty stool, or whatever is appropriate to your situation close at hand. If it's a solid idea, the GM might even let you declare it without a roll, or if it's way out of line, it could be declined without a roll. But sure, you could make a declaration. Or, as luminos pointed out, an "Always Armed" type of aspect would accomplish the same thing on an invoke.
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So I think I got what I need. It's like casting two spells at once really. One's a construct to hold the fire into a shape that you can grab and swing. This is a straight complexity roll that's going to be roughly a 2 for the simple construct + shifts for duration + shifts for weapon rating. Done. Conviction is weapon rating, the discipline has to necessarily be higher. So for a Weapon 4: it's what? an 8 conviction? and a 14 discipline for say...two turns? Is that about right?
And you know...I hadn't considered the first law implications but on the other hand, it's no different from other magic that way.
About GMPC's. This is just an NPC who is "in charge." He's never around. He doesn't go adventuring with them. He's the Warden so he knows stuff they need to know. But he's a complete "PC" because if ever someone else runs the game I've got a character. Cuz he's cool. And I thought it'd be a neat-o speedo spell to pull out, and if it's kosher then I can do it later as a PC (GM willing). No, he's not a party member. He's why the Avengers assemble, and he's the guy that actually knows stuff since three party members are new to town and the fourth just never gave a damn until today. So no worries about his breaky-ness.
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No.
Its equal shifts for power and control. So for weapon four itd be Great conviction roll and great discipline roll.
As has been said numerous times, you can't increase the duration of an attack. You'd roll conviction and discipline, trying to get values at the weapon rating or higher, every exchange.
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Sure. If it's evocation. But if it's a ritual? A construct is not evocation. It is NOT conviction=discipline. That's what I'm saying. I can't mix the two?
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Look at it this way: I'm making a bowl. That holds fire. That's not strictly evocation. It "durates"
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You're severely weakening yourself for no reason.
You're basically making a severely under powered enchanted item. I don't understand why you don't take any of our suggestions, any of which would be more powerful and less rule breaking than what you've proposed. I'm not even sure where you got 14 shifts of control though. If you wanted a ritual that made a weapon4 that was active for an entire session, you'd need way more than 14 shifts of control.
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Not a whole session..no. Okay. is this where I'm breaking down? I realize I'm probably not conveying this correctly. Maybe this is where I'm going awry. It's a lightsaber. Spell. you turn it off and on. You use it for an exchange or two. Maybe the whole fight. You don't carry it with you all the time, that's part of what makes it better than a sword. that and it's made of fire ;) that's where I'm getting 14. As a construct it takes 2 to make a simple shape (it has to hold something, but it doesn't have to be anything more complicated than a cylinder. It takes some points equal to the shifts of fire you're pouring into it (and if I got that right 8 shifts gives you a Weapon 4...right?) So that's ten. You want it to hang around for more than one exhange...four shifts for construct duration.
Yeah, let me reiterate...I don't want the guy to have a LITERAL lightsaber, or a PHYSICAL sword. I want him to freeze a bar of fire...like the one Luccio shoots, and swing it like a bat. As a spell. I can live with tying it to some sort of physical focus so it's tethered to a "hilt" but it's really not a magic sword, or a fire blast. See? this is why I thought it more complicated than just an "evocation attack with fire." I'm looking for something that is both evocation/ritual, or between. Or something.
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"Frozen bar of fire" is a perfectly valid enchanted item. Beyond that, there is a section in the Thaumaturgy rules on page 275 called "Can I summon a Sword." Read it.
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Yeah, no I have read it. But, as I've mentioned earlier...while I understand the over all point I take a few exceptions.
1) Real swords are illegal in the USofA to go carrying about one's person (as is any blade longer than what is it? 4 inches? 6?) And they're not exactly concealable. It's all fine and dandy when you're an NPC like Morgan or Luccio, or a Knight of the Cross with a trait like "Protection of Divine Coincidence." But GM's like to make things difficult on PC's. "Yes, that's a fine Bastard Sword and you like quite scary with it. So much so everyone's calling the cops."
2) Why magic up a sword instead of a real one? Because I've been caught and frisked! They took me weapons! Me shiny shiny weapons...
3) This one's ON FIRE. Which makes it inherently more awesome. And no real sword is.
4) This cuts through things, not blasts through them, so it's way less dangerous to the scenery and the by-standers
5) This one IS FIRE. Swords have to go in sheaths. This one can be blown out dramatically at the end of the fight. Plus it's fire. see 3 and 4.
6) Go on. Parry it. I dare you. Make a disarming maneuver...give it a go.
I'm just sayin...I can think of berjillion occasions when a construct sword is better than a real sword. Especially when said sword isn't so much a sword as a persistent, static bar of fire that I can swing in a sword like fashion.
Now I grant there are plenty of drawbacks. It can be dispelled. It can burn me just as easy. It takes some juice to make. Hit it with water the steam will cook me pretty good too. Plus it's not invulnerable. But it's not useless either. It does things no other ONE spell anyone's named so far can do, which is go away when I want it, be there when I need it, cut through walls (as opposed to blasting through them), parry/block things, cut through things in general, and be a sword o' fire.
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Now I grant there are plenty of drawbacks. It can be dispelled. It can burn me just as easy. It takes some juice to make. Hit it with water the steam will cook me pretty good too. Plus it's not invulnerable. But it's not useless either. It does things no other ONE spell anyone's named so far can do, which is go away when I want it, be there when I need it, cut through walls (as opposed to blasting through them), parry/block things, cut through things in general, and be a sword o' fire.
So, in other words, its exceedingly complicated and has no precedent in the system, or at least that's how you want it to be treated mechanically.
My advice is an Enchanted Item or Item of Power combined with an Aspect you can Invoke for special effects stuff. That, or do something that has a purpose other than "wow, cool!"
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"So, in other words, its exceedingly complicated"-people seem to think so...that's why the discussion...is there no more elegant solution? why is mine bad?
"and has no precedent in the system,"-No...hence the question...But hey! It's a new system! This is half the fun!
"or at least that's how you want it to be treated mechanically."-No. I just want it to do and be something very specific.
"That, or do something that has a purpose other than "wow, cool!"-Yeah, no I have listed like 3 or 4 things that makes this thing REALLY useful, outside of pure numbers. I will reiterate. It is a bar of fire you hold in your hand. So let me spell (heh) that out a bit. You can use it to cut through things. Not BLAST through, thus possibly hitting things on the other side you can't see...cut through. If you've ever played a Jedi you know how really awesome that is. Solves a LOT of problems without the fall out of explosions or burning buildings. In a sword fight, it'd be well...difficult at best to parry this weapon since it would probably ruin any straight blade that came in contact with it for any period of time.
And again...it's FIRE. I hit you with it. You hurt bad. Maybe be on fire. It's actually the best of several worlds.
And...no one can confiscate it. Unlike your sword.
Seriously...how is that not insanely useful? There's a reason lightsabers rock...and it's not just the hawt glowing blade or sexy noise it makes.
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You guys are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Just go with it as a Conjuration effect, conjuring a Weapon 3 sword or so. Probably held in an Enchanted Item so it can be done instantly. That's what I'd do. The fact that it's made out of fire is basically flavor, and will satisfy about as many Catches as a normal sword (ie: one made of Cold Iron).
It's about 4 or 5 shifts max, and very doable.
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That sounds fairly elegant and much closer to what I want. My only nit-pick is being made of fire isn't mostly flavor since I want it be able to make doors for me, you know...where there were none before. But I imagine that'd just be adding more shifts to power?
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Oh..and KoffeeKid...
AWESOME!!! Your "soul sword" is pretty close in lots of ways. I thought about that whole soulfire thing too, as a magic matrix. Apart from that...it's pretty wicked cool in general.
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That sounds fairly elegant and much closer to what I want. My only nit-pick is being made of fire isn't mostly flavor since I want it be able to make doors for me, you know...where there were none before. But I imagine that'd just be adding more shifts to power?
Sure, but it can't be used as a pry-bar very effectively. That's what I mean by flavor, it's somewhat different from what a normal sword can do, but not inherently better or worse per se.
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Hah! No. Not supposed to be a prybar. It's a lightsaber, which makes it more of a cutting torch. But I think I catch your point...
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Yeah, no I have read it. But, as I've mentioned earlier...while I understand the over all point I take a few exceptions.
1) Real swords are illegal in the USofA to go carrying about one's person (as is any blade longer than what is it? 4 inches? 6?) And they're not exactly concealable. It's all fine and dandy when you're an NPC like Morgan or Luccio, or a Knight of the Cross with a trait like "Protection of Divine Coincidence." But GM's like to make things difficult on PC's. "Yes, that's a fine Bastard Sword and you like quite scary with it. So much so everyone's calling the cops."
2) Why magic up a sword instead of a real one? Because I've been caught and frisked! They took me weapons! Me shiny shiny weapons...
3) This one's ON FIRE. Which makes it inherently more awesome. And no real sword is.
4) This cuts through things, not blasts through them, so it's way less dangerous to the scenery and the by-standers
5) This one IS FIRE. Swords have to go in sheaths. This one can be blown out dramatically at the end of the fight. Plus it's fire. see 3 and 4.
6) Go on. Parry it. I dare you. Make a disarming maneuver...give it a go.
I'm just sayin...I can think of berjillion occasions when a construct sword is better than a real sword. Especially when said sword isn't so much a sword as a persistent, static bar of fire that I can swing in a sword like fashion.
Now I grant there are plenty of drawbacks. It can be dispelled. It can burn me just as easy. It takes some juice to make. Hit it with water the steam will cook me pretty good too. Plus it's not invulnerable. But it's not useless either. It does things no other ONE spell anyone's named so far can do, which is go away when I want it, be there when I need it, cut through walls (as opposed to blasting through them), parry/block things, cut through things in general, and be a sword o' fire.
You can carry a sword in LA if you are 21male and own land. Law on the books. Problem solved enchanted sword and you play in New Orleans.
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That's an awesome law!
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In Montana, you need a permit to carry blades over 4 inches, but as I understand it acquiring one isn't too big a deal. So it really depends on the specific laws where you are how illegal such a thing is.
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Sorry, my understanding was the OP wanted to evoke a sword in combat.
Conjuration and summoning are Thaumatergy and can't be used in an action scene, its too slow. If the OP wants to stop before he knows he is going to fight and create or summon that's fine but if he intends to draw in an action round its a huge spell outside the scope of normal evocation.
I think the best way to have a weapon like a light sabre is an enchanted item. Figure out the casting cost for a conjuration and then spend that many item slots.
Thaumatergy spell, Iwould say:
3 shifts for creation of a basic weapon 1
+2 shifts for weapon 3
+ a number of shifts for each special effect (agree with GM). This could be things such as fulfilling catches.
So if your Lore were 5 you could use a single conjured item slot to have an item that summons a blade of fire weapon: 3 once per session.
Extras on top of this just use more slots.
Draw and use.
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That seems fair. It only takes 3 total shifts for a weapon 3? I thought it was a double pay thing (6 shifts gets you weapon 3) or is that an armor thing I'm thinking of?
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That seems fair. It only takes 3 total shifts for a weapon 3? I thought it was a double pay thing (6 shifts gets you weapon 3) or is that an armor thing I'm thinking of?
Actually, with Conjuration, it's no more shifts for Weapon: 3 than Weapon: 1...you're just conjuring a real weapon, and it needs to be sized appropriately to it's damage. But yeah, you're thinking of Armor.
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DMW is correct about conjuration being conjuration. I was thinking more a standard sword is weapon 1 or 2 and adding damage would add shifts.
In addition the sword would be made of ectoplasm and therefore I am not sure would satisfy any catches. That might cost more shifts.
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Ah well, since I'm not conjuring a literal sword so much as a physical shape to contain fire wouldn't that change things a bit? This is, again, kinda the crux of the thing. The whole "sword" meme is really throwing off the perception of the result. It's a fuego spell in a tube you can hit people with. So the damage would be dependant on the power you put into it on creation I would think.
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Ah well, since I'm not conjuring a literal sword so much as a physical shape to contain fire wouldn't that change things a bit? This is, again, kinda the crux of the thing. The whole "sword" meme is really throwing off the perception of the result. It's a fuego spell in a tube you can hit people with. So the damage would be dependant on the power you put into it on creation I would think.
Indeed, my suggestion below assumes an ectoplasmic handle with a blade of fire. Ritual is capable of producing fire and ectoplasm so I see no reason why this couldn't work.
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Whether the OP is using an enchanted item for this, or whether it's a ritual he casts to create the weapon, both requires a high Lore and so we'll assume a Lore of 5.
1) A ritual. 2 shifts for complexity and 3 for power to create a Weapon:3 sword. It can be an elemental blade, like fire or spirit, or ectoplasm if you like, so it can satisfy a fire catch but it couldn't satisfy a silver or cold iron catch. It's default duration is one scene or 15 minutes, whichever is shorter. You can add additional shifts for more damage (increasing the heat of the blade or whatever) or duration, or to add an aspect like 'burning blade', but then the ritual will take additional preparation, right now it is only 5 shifts of complexity so you could do it in 5 minutes. This would be more useful if you had sponsored magic.
Benefits - it is easy to replace, doesn't take up item slots, it's form can change to satisfy catches. Can be used for defence against weapon and fist attacks.
Drawbacks - takes time to create, it's a relatively low weapon value without lots of shifts
2) An Enchanted item.
An innocuous looking silver rod, about the size of a mobile phone and wrought with cunning runes, when activated a beam of fire leaps out of one/both end/s
Let's assume two enchanted item slots as you can't do much with half a focus item.
A Weapon:5 attack, three times a session.
A Weapon:4 attack, five times per session
A Weapon:6 attack, once a session.
You choose what kind of damage it will do at creation i.e. it's a fire blade. The actual item might just be the hilt and so it's a small object, easily hidden. Once you're out of free uses you can still activate it, but it requires one mental stress each time.
Benefits - can be used without preparation, it's easier to contruct. With a lore of 5 you can get it up to weapon:10 with additional slots, does more damage, might look like a sword but isn't one and so can be used at a distance (think force throw with it flying back to you, or just launching the blade only), can use discipline to hit
Drawbacks - takes up slots, form can't change, can't be used for defense*
*stick another slot in for a block and you can, like so:
2 enchanted slots -
Weapon:4 attack, three times per session
Defensive Block:5, once per session.
Again, you can take inspiration from the jedi as the blade leaps to defend you from bullets, spells and in close combat.
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Oooo I like the enchanted item!
The defensive block, while cool, is something I'm thinking of handling in a different manner for another character I have in mind. You see the ability to block stuff with a lightsaber is really more about reflexes than item itself, it seems to me. So I'm kicking around a hyper-aware "Jedi Reflexes" version of defense, a la Elaine. Someone mentioned a "Jedi Knight" build earlier in this thread so now I'm gonna come up with a "sorcerer" who's got all this skill but no frame of reference. He's a nerd, so he builds all his magical mojo around the notion that he must be a Jedi. Hilarity ensues. Until he whoops someone's ass. Because he's a Jedi, and they're badass. The little nerd that could.
So you get a limited skill set that'll grow into a major, focused talent.
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A Weapon:4 attack, five times per session
This version should only be 4 times per session, dropping Strength only adds one use (unlike adding Item Slots, which do indeed add two).
The Conjuration version as an Enchated Item would be a mere 3 shift effect, and thus have 5 uses per day (assuming Superb Lore), and last the scene, but is only Weapon: 2 or 3. I see no reason the incidental effects wouldn't remain valid, though. Ectoplasm can clearly be any temperature, so a blow-torch like item using superheated ectoplasm should work fine.
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If it lasts longer than one exchange shouldn't I be able to "spin" it into a defensive thing in certain scenarios, ie: attacks normally blockable by a "lightsaber" type item? Fire attacks of equal or lower level, projectiles of less damage, melee weapons, etc if I make an appropriate skill check, like weapons?
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If it lasts longer than one exchange shouldn't I be able to "spin" it into a defensive thing in certain scenarios, ie: attacks normally blockable by a "lightsaber" type item? Fire attacks of equal or lower level, projectiles of less damage, melee weapons, etc if I make an appropriate skill check, like weapons?
Projectiles? Not really. In "Star Wars", Jedi defend at the speed of plot by being able to see the future and having the universe itself put their lightsabers where they need to be. There is no way in the world that a creature short of Mythic Speed is going to have the necessary reflexes to stop bullets and laser beams with a sword. And even if you could see the future, you still won't be fast or precise enough in combat to get the blade where it needs to be. At typical combat ranges a handgun bullet will need about .03 seconds to reach it's target after being fired. You can't move a sword far in .03 seconds and if the attacker double taps, you'd need to be able to stop time to get the sword in place to stop the second bullet. Even something like a thrown baseball would get to you in under a third of a second from 30 feet, cut that time by 1/3 if a pro is throwing the ball. :)
As for fire, most ranged fire attacks seem to be of the gout of flame variety, trying to stop a 1' wide burst of flame with a 2" wide sword would be an painful exercise in futility.
As an actual sword, sure, I'd allow you to block melee attacks as usual.
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Those are fair points, though I still want the guy to have Jedi reflexes (or close to) as a defense, a la Ellaine (as I mentioned). He may not be able to deflect projectiles from a machine gun, but I think I'll give him one very well aimed bullet. But little to do with the blade itself. However your objections have little to do with the make up of the blade itself, so while they're noted in general, I still think that means it's possible, just not likely. Or only possible under specific proscribed circumstances.
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Unless you are paying the complexity price to be able to do all of those things (blocking gun shots with a sword would either by a exceedingly high complexity ritual, or just flavor text for a seperate defensive spell), you can only really use the enchanted item sword for what the enchanted item is built for. If its a conjuration, then it only does sword things. If its an attack, it only attacks and doesn't get duration. etc. etc. etc. What it sounds like is that you want it to do a bunch of things based mainly on the Rule of Cool, which is awesome, but isn't supported by the mechanics in a way you are willing to work with. There are very good reasons for those mechanics, because if its able to do the things you want it to, then why would anyone want to do anything else? What would be the point of playing a vanilla mortal if a magic user gets everything he can dream up without regards to the balance created by pre-existing mechanics?
Seriously, just give the guy some kind of custom power, -2 or -3 sounds right for everything you want the sword to be able to do, and don't give yourself a headache over it. It might not be the kind of power a PC would get access to, but thats why you don't mix GM'ing with PC'ing.
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Again, it's not an actual sword. It's a bar of fire. So it could conceivably block whatever a thick bar of magic fire could block i would think. Remember, a light saber is NOT a sword, and I'm trying to make a lightsaber. Not a sword. And a sword CAN block a bullet, it's the PERSON who can't do it. It's certainly possible for someone in this game to be able to intercept projectiles, even bullets. Likely? No. But we are talking about magic here.
Mechanically I'm talking about using the spin rule to change an attack into a defense. The example the book gives is the opposite of what I'm talking about, spinning his shield into an attack. Why wouldn't the reverse work?
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What you are referring to is not the spin rules. You are referring to using an evocation already in place that hasn't been used yet that round, to have an effect different from what it was originally cast as. Your lightsaber won't mimic an evocation effect the way you want to use it, so I don't think you can use it like that. If your GM (when you actually have someone GM this character) decides otherwise, then sure, you can block with it, but changing the effect like that will use up the spell, so you'd have to summon it again to use it again.
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ehhhhh it's not an evocation, exactly...It's a conjuration holding an evocation in it. It persists from round to round.
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Can we drop the talk about what its like and just get to a discussion of its mechanical effects? If its a conjuration holding an evocation, you need to cast both the ritual for the conjuration, and the evocation. On top of that, the evocation needs to be able to be described using the rules for evocation. If we can settle on what it does with the system, you can then go on to describing how that effect will look when described in game, but right now, its just creating unnecessary confusion.
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Well the major confusion seems to be everyone keeps trying to give me a sword or a fire spell.
Here...let me put it to you this way...
I'm trying to LITERALLY create a lightsaber blade with magic. How can I BEST do that? What's the "hilt"? I don't know. What's the mechanical effect? I don't know. I want a lightsaber blade. Not a sword that's on fire. A lightsaber blade, and all that it does.
Best advice I've heard so far is an enchanted item that conjure's it for me, and swings like a weapon.
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The enchanted item method is the way to go for something that works, mechanically, like a sword. For something that mechanically works like a lightsaber, you'd need to invent mechanics for it. This is why I've said a few times to make a custom power. For -2 refresh, you can justify having a sword of fire that you can always use for that kind of stuff, and it will be as powerful as the basic Fuego spell. For -3 refresh, you can justify using that sword to block things that even normal swords cant do. This is by far the most elegant solution for an NPC character. For a PC to have this, you'd need to do a conjuration for a sword effect, and a very high cost ritual to transform the PC to mimic the use of a stunt to be able to block bullets with a fire sword, and its all downhill from there if you want to make it even more flexible.
Edit: Alternative solution: Give him the footwork stunt for weapons. Then just do a basic sword conjuration, color it as being a lightsaber, and you can still do most of what you want. Dodging gunshots can just be colored as using the sword to stop them.
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Well again, you guys are focused on this thing stopping projectiles, and I really don't see how that matters at all, as anything stronger than the thing it's stopping can stop anything. What exactly are the mechanics I'm missing? I'm conjuring a lightsaber. It's like conjuring a sword only it's not a sword...it's better.
How about this...I conjure a lightsaber. Literally. In the same way the axe I conjure does more damage than the sword, that I've conjured a lightsaber, literally, means it would do more damage. A stick with another stick made out of flames on it. I can do with it anything I can do with a conjured sword, including block bullets, parry attacks, or whatever with a weapons skill. So it's a weapon: whatever so therefore it'll be a discipline: whatever to conjure. Is there a problem with making it that stupidly easy? It's not a weapon:3 because it's not a sword, and the fire's not flavor. It's a lightsaber so it's damage is loads higher. Wouldn't that work? Doesn't matter about it's mechanical components, because I'm not trying to conjure them. It has a blade because I made the blade. Because that's all a conjured sword is.
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If I am reading you correctly, what you want is something the has all the benefits of a sword, except that it has a bunch of extra stuff as well, but its not any harder to create than a sword. Is this correct? I want to say right now that you can not do that with the rules as written. You have to house rule it, and there are real ethical issues with doing this as a GM when you plan to use these abilities as a player later on.
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No, I want something that is a sword, but has a lot of other benefits as well, because it's better than a sword, and I want it to be appropriately harder to make, by adding shifts.
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Alright, here is a quick guess of what it might cost to do that as a conjuration in complexity. The base cost for conjuring an item without doing anything special is usually around 3 complexity. To make the conjuration have the intensity of the Fuego spell, I'd add a whole lot of shifts on top of that, but just as a guess, lets say it adds 5 complexity to make it a weapon 4 item. Then we also want to make it have the qualities of fire so that it can't be blocked with weapons or fists, so another 2 or 3 shifts of complexity. Then on top of that you want it to be able to block bullets and other ranged attacks that weapons can't do. There are two ways to pull this off. Treat it as a standard evocation block that gets activated separately, which will be however many shifts you want the block strength to be and how long you want it to last. The other way is to have it grant you the ability to use your weapons skill to block stuff weapons can't normally block. This would be prohibitively expensive, as its basically the same effect as a full on transformation of the caster to let him temporarily have a stunt he doesn't have. 10-12 shifts of complexity as a baseline, and maybe higher than that for this effect.
So there you go. It only takes about a 16 - 26 strength enchanted item to do this effect, depending on which method you are aiming for. You'll need to blow umpteen million refinement on enchanted item slots, as well as have a lore of 8+, but its what you want.
The alternative of a custom power is not only cheaper, but it requires less rules abuse to use.
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Most of that I'm fine with but I really don't understand why you think it'll cost a bunch to block bullets when A: a long sword can block a bullet, a person can't move it fast enough to intercept. You really can't argue that. The ability to block projectiles has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with your calculations. NOTHING. Nothing nothing nothing nothing. Forget blocking projectiles. Put it from your mind. B: no. there is no b. That's it.
The only "defensive" capabillities I need this to have is to be able to roll a weapons skill to defend against a melee weapon, and maybe be able to sunder the crap out of your metal sword with my non-metal sword. I wanna be able to parry with it, which ruins your blade. Why is that so crazy? What's so nuts about that? It's a melee weapon? I wanna make a melee weapon that's loads stronger. But ya know what? I got it. I'm just gonna make it a simple two roll thing. Discipline=Conviction for power+3+time. Done.
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Again, it's not an actual sword. It's a bar of fire. So it could conceivably block whatever a thick bar of magic fire could block i would think. Remember, a light saber is NOT a sword, and I'm trying to make a lightsaber. Not a sword. And a sword CAN block a bullet, it's the PERSON who can't do it. It's certainly possible for someone in this game to be able to intercept projectiles, even bullets. Likely? No. But we are talking about magic here.
Per the books, magic doesn't work that way. Let's say you cast a magic spell to make you super strong and you lift a car up over your head. A fraction of a second later your are crushed because your bones and ligaments can't support a car. You start swinging your sword around at 2,000 miles per hour and you'll rip your arms off.
Not to mention that a bar of fire hot enough to vaporize a bullet in 1/5000th of a second (the amount of time it would take a bullet to pass through it) is going to radiate enough heat to broil the wielder and set everything around him on fire.
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Why is it harder? Because lightsabers don't actually exist, and their effect is a major power drain.
If I was going to do it, I'd call it 'conjure a big scary sword' complexity 3 for weapon 3, and then as many 'its a lightsaber', 'no really it cuts through that' and the like maneuvers on top of that, and let the user pick when to tag them.
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Luminos is around correct to conjure.
There are 4 options as I see it
1 create an item using a number of item slots that has a conjuration spell to make a "game mechanically" normal sword, the energy glow etc are just colour. The sword will have a number of uses per session. You may be able to get some little boosts within the standard rules. An aspect "my glowing power sword" can be evoked for special effects.
2 Design a sword as an item of power with the GM the number of refresh it costs will depend on the capabilities of the sword. The types of things you have been talking about (acting as a catch etc) would give it a power similar to a sword of the cross at around 3 refresh.
3 Just consider the sword a manoeuvre meaning it is a simple evocation. This can be tagged for effects in use.
4 House-rule something
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Here's how I'd do it.
Step one: Put an aspect on your character sheet; something like "I've got a lightsaber!" - this lets you spend a fate point any time you need to do something really cool with it, and, conversely, gives you fate points when what you really needed was a crowbar and a real sword would've been a better choice - or when you need to convince someone that you come in peace, unarmed, and the guys you're talking to know better.
Step two: Buy an appropriate sponsored magic - maybe you've cut a deal with Pele (Hawaiian goddess of fire); maybe you just found a nice fire-aspected ley line nearby and spent the time and effort to learn how to tap into that and cart its power around with you. Lots of options available here. As an added bonus, this provides an instant explanation for some PC going "Why can't I do that?", as well as a good source of possible quest material if said PC decides they really want to be able to replicate this trick.
Step three: Conjure the sword. This can be done as an evocation, thanks to sponsored magic.
For a weapon: 2 blade (i.e. your average sword), it's a complexity 3 thaumaturgy spell, which translates to a power 3 evocation, and it'll naturally last until sunrise. Of course, you want something more impressive than that, and you don't need quite so much duration; I'd probably give you weapon: 3 for a scene as a complexity 5 conjuration - that's on par with Item of Power type swords, which is about where it ought to be.
Then, since it's thaumaturgy, you start adding maneuvers; three more complexity for every aspect you want to put on the blade. Put on as many of these as you can afford.
In combat, you start off by just using it as a sword and taking your free tags on those aspects when you need to make it do something special; if the free tags run out, you can cast again to "reinforce" the blade (since it's already conjured, this'd just be however many maneuvers you want at 3 power per each, which you can do for sure thanks, again, to sponsored magic).
Or you can start spending fate points to invoke your "I've got a lightsaber!" aspect for effect. I'd require that if you want to do something really dramatic, like melt the steel weapon someone tried to parry with (remember, the star wars universe is full of non-lightsaber melee weapons that seem to be capable of parrying a lightsaber just fine. And while parrying will certainly *damage* a metal blade, it takes quite a lot of heat indeed to render one instantly broken.)
You don't actually need a handle, though were I statting up such a character, I'd definitely make a "lightsaber handle" as a focus item for fire evocations.
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And a note on things like "can't be disarmed" - if someone tries to disarm this thing and fails, no problem; if they would succeed, tag or invoke an appropriate aspect; if that won't give you enough of a bonus, then clearly they managed to actually hit your hand, or succeeded in knocking your lightsaber handle focus item out of your grasp, or something like that. Just because they can't do a conventional "hit the blade hard enough to make you drop it" doesn't mean they can't disarm it at all ever.
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Plus, Jedi are constantly being disarmed (or dis-handed) throughout the films, it's a common theme.
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Yeah that last part I completely agree with!