ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 08:11:24 PM

Title: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 08:11:24 PM
Here is a build I came up with, it can definitely use some tinkering, but all in all its really cool.Its meant to be a changling character built for a Submerged game whose parents is a fairly high ranking sidhe noble.Its so effective because with Greater Glamours and a high stealth rating most bad guys won't even know the character is there, and with Incite Emotion he can do major damage to there mental stress track and can take out most bad guys in a few exchanges.

[-4] Greater Glamours
[-4] Incite Emotion ( At Range, Lasting Emotion, Potent Emotion)
[-4] Supernatural Toughness
[+3] Catch: Cold Iron and the Like

Total Refresh: 1
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 29, 2010, 08:16:01 PM
Were his or her parents from one of the Courts?  What emotion can he or she incite?
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: greycouncilmember on July 29, 2010, 08:17:53 PM
You beat me to it.  I was just going to ask what fae in the books could incite emotions?  I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just can't think of any examples. 
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 08:19:34 PM
From the Summer Court, the character can incite Euphoria.We have seen in the books with there Glamours they can incite emotion by pushing illusions, such as when Harry and Billy went down to see Maeve during SK.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: luminos on July 29, 2010, 08:20:05 PM
Nixie's have the incite emotion ability in the RPG book, so thats justification for giving it to other types of Fae.  Looks like a good character, although he has to be really close to making the choice to have greater glamours.  That can be perilous.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: CMEast on July 29, 2010, 08:23:44 PM
Indeed, for Greater Glamours it even states 'As a pure fae' in the description for it. However I'm sure that there are some GM's that would allow it. It certainly would be a nasty character in a conflict but I think the GM will compel you a lot to change to full fae, meaning that you'll rarely have any Fate to spend.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 08:26:20 PM
@Lumi - yep, the character is atleast in my mind, as close to Fae as they can be short of making the Choice.

@CMEast - Any GM who does that is a douche imo, as that is basically like saying No Fate Points for you, kill the character roll a new one.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: luminos on July 29, 2010, 08:46:20 PM

@CMEast - Any GM who does that is a douche imo, as that is basically like saying No Fate Points for you, kill the character roll a new one.

If he does it constantly, and if the player has only one power left on his parent's template, then yes, its a bad move.  But a GM should still compel the changeling character every once in a while to pick up more powers, even if it means risking the Choice.  Its pretty much stated in the template that compels are supposed to be used that way, to make the struggle between free-will and nature that much more dramatic. 

Pro-tip:  Don't ever put your changeling right on the razors edge of the Choice unless you actually want it to be a constant threat looming over him.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 09:02:55 PM
If he does it constantly, and if the player has only one power left on his parent's template, then yes, its a bad move.  But a GM should still compel the changeling character every once in a while to pick up more powers, even if it means risking the Choice.  Its pretty much stated in the template that compels are supposed to be used that way, to make the struggle between free-will and nature that much more dramatic. 

Pro-tip:  Don't ever put your changeling right on the razors edge of the Choice unless you actually want it to be a constant threat looming over him.

Every once in a while sure, like maybe a couple of times a session, but to do it to the point of railroading it, that is when it gets to go from dramatic roleplaying to stupidity where player feels more like quiting in the middle of a game.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Arcteryx on July 29, 2010, 09:08:42 PM
That's the nature of the changeling tho - that choice, that razor's edge between humanity and fae. Its the overall theme of the Dresdenverse: "There's No Free Lunch."

I'm uncomfortable with the greater glamours (as per the book, its for pure fae), I'd still let it in, but boy, that certainly foreshadows to me what your final decision will ultimately be.

And why would a GM need to railroad it constantly? If it was me, I'd wait till it really, Really, REALLY hurts to make that choice.

Its the climax of the story. Chips are all on the table. The fight's going down the toilet sideways and everything is not looking good for the good guys. But oh, hi there Dad. Fancy you popping up. What? One more boost to the old toolbox so *I* can save everyone I love and.. what? The world?

Hmmmm.

HMMMM.

HMMMMMMMMMMM.....

Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: luminos on July 29, 2010, 09:11:03 PM
Every once in a while sure, like maybe a couple of times a session, but to do it to the point of railroading it, that is when it gets to go from dramatic roleplaying to stupidity where player feels more like quiting in the middle of a game.

Oh, absolutely.  Just enough to make the possibility there, and up the tension of one or two situations.  One or two times in a session at the very most, and any more than that is being a jerk (as well as not honoring the fact that the player already bought off that compel).  
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: CMEast on July 29, 2010, 09:12:29 PM
If I were a GM I wouldn't allow anyone to store fate points up anyway, not unless there character was a little under-powered compared to the others. With Greater Glamours sitting in your quiver, I could possibly compel you towards your fae side with every major use of your powers or every major conflict. I'd definitely speak to your GM about the character before playing it.

I think low fate points DOES make the game dramatic. It means you don't have much of a safety net when things go wrong.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 09:22:47 PM
If I were a GM I wouldn't allow anyone to store fate points up anyway, not unless there character was a little under-powered compared to the others. With Greater Glamours sitting in your quiver, I could possibly compel you towards your fae side with every major use of your powers or every major conflict. I'd definitely speak to your GM about the character before playing it.

I think low fate points DOES make the game dramatic. It means you don't have much of a safety net when things go wrong.

Um - The point of fate points is the ability to effect the flow of plot, by effectively limiting there ability to keep a decent amount at any one time to me is more along the lines of pushing the players onto a script then having it as a roleplay where the ending is not fixed.By doing that, it makes the GM more of an author in a book with a single forethought conclusion then a true collaborative process which to me is a major no-no as that goes against the very spirit of the FATE system.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Arcteryx on July 29, 2010, 09:25:42 PM
Why wouldn't you allow a player to store them? If they've earned them by eating compels, they get to keep'm - and how they spend them is up to them. Fate point economy is an underlying core principle of the game.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 09:33:37 PM
But anyway for this character I have atleast a couple aspects in mind to generate fate points like no tommorow - A Trouble of "I cannot say what is untrue" and an aspect "Iron is my Bane".Both of which will be self compelled very often.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Doc Nova on July 29, 2010, 09:34:48 PM
I wouldn't mind the storing of fate points, really.  However, a character with such potent powers who is toeing that mortal/"monster" line is going to be facing a ton of compels to accumulate those fate points...and compels aren't meant to leave the character unscathed or with the lack of temptation.  In fact, it would be my presumption that the goal, RP-wise, behind such a character is to portray that "razor's edge" in the first place.  If the player were, and I am in no way implying this was your intention, simply looking for a means to outfit their character with incredible power and no repercussions then there would be a problem, at least thematically.  
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: CMEast on July 29, 2010, 09:36:00 PM
Um - The point of fate points is the ability to effect the flow of plot, by effectively limiting there ability to keep a decent amount at any one time to me is more along the lines of pushing the players onto a script then having it as a roleplay where the ending is not fixed.By doing that, it makes the GM more of an author in a book with a single forethought conclusion then a true collaborative process which to me is a major no-no as that goes against the very spirit of the FATE system.

Fair enough, that's not quite how I see it but I see what you're saying. To me a Fate point is a useful roleplay tool, both for the GM and for the player. The more fate points people have, the less motivated they will be to play as there character would, self-compelling themselves becomes less important and it becomes the GM's job to force them to play the role when it becomes inconvenient to them.

In the same way, if a player is sitting on a small pile of fate points he can enter each conflict safe in the knowledge that he can handle most situations by invoking an aspect or two. A +2 bonus or a declaration is a powerful ability in this game and while I want them to use it, I want it to be valuable. With spare fate points, situations become less about suspenseful drama and more about over-the-top conflicts where people abuse their aspects as much as possible.

Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: luminos on July 29, 2010, 09:42:29 PM
In the same way, if a player is sitting on a small pile of fate points he can enter each conflict safe in the knowledge that he can handle most situations by invoking an aspect or two. A +2 bonus or a declaration is a powerful ability in this game and while I want them to use it, I want it to be valuable. With spare fate points, situations become less about suspenseful drama and more about over-the-top conflicts where people abuse their aspects as much as possible.


And the way to avoid it becoming like that is to make the compels offered to a player have real bite, that they represent a significant choice that will have repercussions if accepted.  Self-compels, by the way, don't work any differently than regular compels except that they are initiated by the player.  So saying that the character will get a lot of fate points through self compels is assuming that he is going to put him at a huge disadvantage by doing so.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Arcteryx on July 29, 2010, 09:43:45 PM
In the same way, if a player is sitting on a small pile of fate points he can enter each conflict safe in the knowledge that he can handle most situations by invoking an aspect or two. A +2 bonus or a declaration is a powerful ability in this game and while I want them to use it, I want it to be valuable. With spare fate points, situations become less about suspenseful drama and more about over-the-top conflicts where people abuse their aspects as much as possible.

I still don't get that... The key word in fate point economy is economy. Supply...and demand.

GM <evil maniacal laughter: MOUAHAHAHAHA!>: create demand
Players self-compelling or begging for compels: provide supply

If players are sitting on a vault full of fate points... GM, crank that dial from Easy to Hard and give them chances to burn them up and turn those stories into their own with aspects coming into play.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: CMEast on July 29, 2010, 09:47:35 PM
Exactly Luminos. A huge disadvantage. And invocations are a huge advantage. Which is why they shouldn't be spent like crazy, they are valuable resources.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 29, 2010, 09:50:34 PM
The more fate points people have, the less motivated they will be to play as there character would, self-compelling themselves becomes less important and it becomes the GM's job to force them to play the role when it becomes inconvenient to them.

I don't quite agree with this.

With spare fate points, situations become less about suspenseful drama and more about over-the-top conflicts where people abuse their aspects as much as possible.

Invoking Aspects is not abuse, and neither is it acting out of character.  In order to Invoke an Aspect, one needs to be able to act in a way the Aspect suggests.  Invoking an Aspect is acting in character, it's acting in character in a way that helps the character just like accepting a Compel is acting in character in a way that causes complications.  Any time you use an Aspect you are enforcing the character concept.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: John Galt on July 29, 2010, 10:12:27 PM
Greater glamours is not for PCs.  Period.  Pure Fae only.  For a REALLY good reason.  The subject of compels and fate points is moot IMO.  Any GM that allows this with a PC isn't doing his job.

Tbora - I understand your obsession with making the most broken PCs possible so you can play them in your own campaigns and I know I gave you this idea, but I draw the line at this much blatant stretching of the rules.  If you want to play this character in your epic campaign,  I'm dropping out.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: CMEast on July 29, 2010, 10:34:35 PM
Invoking Aspects is not abuse, and neither is it acting out of character.  In order to Invoke an Aspect, one needs to be able to act in a way the Aspect suggests.  Invoking an Aspect is acting in character, it's acting in character in a way that helps the character just like accepting a Compel is acting in character in a way that causes complications.  Any time you use an Aspect you are enforcing the character concept.

Well true, I'm over-stating the case a little bit. I simply mean that I prefer a slightly stingy approach where invocations and compels make a large difference to the game, over a generous approach where fate points fly back and forth and people spend them like mad.

Plus, my own opinion is largely irrelevant until I'm the GM behind the wheel, as it happens I'm playing in one real life campaign and waiting for the Roswell PbP game to begin and I certainly wouldn't complain if I ended up with a ton of fate points in either game :) In the real life game the GM is super stingy; even more than I, he believes that roleplay is the important part of the game and so doesn't reward it with fate points at all unless he's slapping us with something particularly nasty. It's going smoothly though and is lots of fun :)
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 11:38:45 PM
Greater glamours is not for PCs.  Period.  Pure Fae only.  For a REALLY good reason.  The subject of compels and fate points is moot IMO.  Any GM that allows this with a PC isn't doing his job.

Tbora - I understand your obsession with making the most broken PCs possible so you can play them in your own campaigns and I know I gave you this idea, but I draw the line at this much blatant stretching of the rules.  If you want to play this character in your epic campaign,  I'm dropping out.

My response in a number of bullet points:

A) This is for a Submerged game as the original clearly stated - so you don't have to "worry" about it.
B) Yes I did get this idea from you, and for that I thank you as I still think its pretty cool.
C) The term "Broken" can only be applied if the opposition is a weaker opposing force which equals blandness and no challenge.
D) I respect you Galt as a person, but if you cannot refrain from base rudeness I am not sure I want you in any game of mine.That is not to say I am giving you the boot now, but if you cannot be civil, you will force my hand.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 29, 2010, 11:39:48 PM
But anyway for this character I have atleast a couple aspects in mind to generate fate points like no tommorow - A Trouble of "I cannot say what is untrue" and an aspect "Iron is my Bane".Both of which will be self compelled very often.

This is actually completely unnecessary (the Iron at least)...both of these are explicitly available as Compels on the High Concept of any Changeling. Re-read the Changeling template.


Others are also technically correct when they say that Greater Glamours are flat-out not allowed on PCs. I probably wouldn't allow it, either.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 29, 2010, 11:42:08 PM
This is actually completely unnecessary (the Iron at least)...both of these are explicitly available as Compels on the High Concept of any Changeling. Re-read the Changeling template.

Thanks for that Deadman, I did not know that, much appreciated :)
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Doc Nova on July 30, 2010, 12:24:28 AM
After re-reading the power, I would have to agree with others on Greater Glamours being out of reach of PCs...it's an incredibly potent power.  Granted a great deal of what it can do can be mirrored with spells, however the bonuses and ease of zone effects, not to mention the relatively easy means to just create stuff (including creatures) out of thin air combine for something that I, personally, would have great difficulty in allowing for a PC to possess it.  If you wanted to accomplish much of the same thing, I'd suggest taking Channeling (for the veils and such) and Rituals (for the ectoplasmic creations).

However, if it works for you in your game, really that's all that matters, just beware of the can of worms such power opens and the realms it opens for other players to potentially desire (and rightly so, so they aren't over-shadowed or made to feel secondary).

Alternatively, if the refresh cost were significantly increased for PC utilization, maybe with an additional limiter or two (perhaps something akin to Feeding Dependency linked to it), then...at a stretch...maybe.  But for 4 points it provides far more than I would ever be comfortable with as a GM.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 30, 2010, 12:26:54 AM
The Part I care for is the "Veils" section of the power, nothing else in regards to the true seemings and the like.

How would you feel about a -2 Power called Faery Veils, which is basically that trapping as a stand alone power?
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: luminos on July 30, 2010, 12:33:11 AM
If thats all you want, just take the regular glamours power.  If you just have to have the +2 to veils, make it an inbetween power at -3 refresh.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Tbora on July 30, 2010, 12:34:51 AM
If thats all you want, just take the regular glamours power.  If you just have to have the +2 to veils, make it an inbetween power at -3 refresh.

Thanks for the suggestion Lumi, will do.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Doc Nova on July 30, 2010, 12:40:45 AM
If that's the case, why not just take Glamours?

...or to be a bit more current...

What luminos said!
 8)
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: John Galt on July 30, 2010, 02:16:37 AM
My response in a number of bullet points:

A) This is for a Submerged game as the original clearly stated - so you don't have to "worry" about it.
B) Yes I did get this idea from you, and for that I thank you as I still think its pretty cool.
C) The term "Broken" can only be applied if the opposition is a weaker opposing force which equals blandness and no challenge.
D) I respect you Galt as a person, but if you cannot refrain from base rudeness I am not sure I want you in any game of mine.That is not to say I am giving you the boot now, but if you cannot be civil, you will force my hand.

A.  Its too powerful for our game.  It blows any PC at submerged way out of the water.
B. I gave you the idea for an enemy it would take a whole group at 18 refresh to face.
C. It's utterly broken.  If you optimized its skill set its twice as powerful as anything at its refresh level.
D. I don't think I've been rude.  I have expressed my concern to you about GMPC's and you continue to make threads asking the community to help you break the game.  I'm willing to try anyway, but I won't play in a game where all PCs are overshadowed by your characters.   Everyone wants to be relevant.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Sinister on August 03, 2010, 03:44:03 AM
This thread is kind of funny, because this is the sort of character I came up with about 3 weeks ago.  I wanted to play a sort of "the shadow" kind of changeling faerie that stood in the darkness and tormented bad guys with fear sort of like the shadow does on the radio show and alec baldwin movie. My GM wasn't the least concerned about the full glamour since you can only have one object at a time, he was much much more concerned with me attacking the least protectable stat (since I can't find mental armor anywhere but found social armor).  He was pretty convinced I would one hit guys out of combat and into the looney bin.  I think that while greater glamours is powerful, it's nothing compared to an armor 4 mental weapon at range.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: John Galt on August 03, 2010, 01:13:44 PM
Its the combination of the two that's the problem.  You can stand back and mentally take out any opponent before they can even find you.
Title: Re: Changling Character
Post by: Lanir on August 03, 2010, 02:09:56 PM
Kind of ran across this thread late but it had some interesting ideas in it.

Fate point drought/monsoon: Still reading up on the system but my impression so far is that as long as a pure mortal character can still function beside your uber-whatsits and you can see that they have noticably more fate points to spend, then anything beyond that is a group or GM preference. Supernaturally powered characters have "always on" power, pure mortals have problems and complications interspersed with bouts of dramatic coolness fueled by sheer adrenaline and Fate points.

PC or NPC powers: I recall reading somewhere that they deliberately avoided labeling much of anything as an NPC power because people are comfortable with different things in their games.

Relative power levels within groups: Many games don't bother too much with power level balancing between characters. The basic character choices (templates or classes for example) are usually at least somewhat balanced but you can twink out in any modern game system if that's your goal. GMs generally have to keep an eye on that themselves. To some extent it's also not about how much you can use or abuse power either, it's how you play. I've had characters handed to me in other games that could have single handedly devoured the whole party I was in but at the same time I worked out motives with the GM that would keep it hidden in the background for a later dramatic reveal. This works fine for me because I'm more of a story-centric and subtle player. Some of the other people in the group really would have turned around and eaten the whole party though, so I'm hardly giving a blanket recommendation here. I guess the key question would be "Where is the fun for you in playing an untouchable uber faerie sniper that's a completed concept before play begins?" That's not a value judgement, the most important answer there is one you give yourself. Oh, one last problem with an imbalanced approach: No matter how much of a soft touch you are with the power, if you have it on your character sheet and other players find out about it (they usually will sooner or later) then you'll run into jealousy issues unless they trust you and the GM as much as the GM trusts you.