ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Emburii on July 28, 2010, 10:30:28 AM

Title: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Emburii on July 28, 2010, 10:30:28 AM
There are two different ways I can handle it if I want to keep the history of the real world figure; substitution of the human woman by a ghoul at some point, or possibly interbreeding with a human mother (her father was in politics, which if he were a ghoul would make the aphorism about laws and sausage even more appropriate).  Is that last point even possible, though, or can ghouls reproduce only with their own people?
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: CMEast on July 28, 2010, 11:46:44 AM
Well a Ghoul is already the scion of a human/uber-ghoul relationship (if you can call it that). As such, I would so that it's possible to have a ghoul/human half-breed (quarter-breed really).

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 28, 2010, 03:43:26 PM
One of the most Holy People of the 20th Century a ghoul? The Living Saint she was called when she was alive a GHOUL?! Excuse me?! As a Ghoul there is no way she could have entered some of the Holiest Grounds in the world without being burnt to a crisp!? I am not just talking Christian Holy Places but Hindu as well. She also lived in a Convent and went to Church. She would not be able to do that with that design in the slightest.

There is no way Mother Theresa was a Ghoul! She was a True Believer dear God study the woman.

Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Tush Hog on July 28, 2010, 03:56:18 PM
Quote from: UltraTroll on July 28, 2010, 03:43:26 PM
One of the most Holy People of the 20th Century a ghoul? The Living Saint she was called when she was alive a GHOUL?! Excuse me?! As a Ghoul there is no way she could have entered some of the Holiest Grounds in the world without being burnt to a crisp!? I am not just talking Christian Holy Places but Hindu as well. She also lived in a Convent and went to Church. She would not be able to do that with that design in the slightest.

There is no way Mother Theresa was a Ghoul! She was a True Believer dear God study the woman.


I find it a bit strange, too. Unless you subscribe to Christopher Hitchens view of her :)

Of course, it is your game world Emburil. Do as you like! - but I just can't help you make Mother Teresa a ghoul - some things just don't feel right  ;D
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 28, 2010, 04:01:48 PM
Does not work in game mechanics of who she was.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 28, 2010, 04:07:22 PM
I agree that this is a real stretch, given the real world history of Mother Teresa.

On the other hand, this is a game where vampires, werewolves, wizards, and the Faerie Courts actually exist, so an insistence on reality may not be totally appropriate.

The only way I could see this happening and be believable (or allow a suspension of disbelief) is to have Mother Teresa as a ghoul of faith; a person who struggled her entire life against her inner nature...and won.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: DFJunkie on July 28, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
Wait, do we even know that Ghouls are allergic to holy stuff?  It might make sense, given Harry's interactions with them, but remember that he tends to run into the mercenary ghouls hired by RCVs to kill him.  For all anyone really knows there are plenty of workaday Ghouls who just try to keep a roof over their heads and (fifty or sixty pounds of) food in their bellies.

That being said, how do you plan to use Mother Teresa?  Antagonist?  Ally?  Major power?

A side note to all those who are offended by the fact that Emburii is using a Christian figure in his made up RPG: don't contribute.  There are people who really do believe in Hecate, Zeus, Odin, and all the other mythological figures we mine for game ideas on a daily basis.  If they can be understanding, so can those of us who think highly of Mother Teresa.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Emburii on July 28, 2010, 08:35:46 PM
Quote from: CMEast on July 28, 2010, 11:46:44 AM
Well a Ghoul is already the scion of a human/uber-ghoul relationship (if you can call it that). As such, I would so that it's possible to have a ghoul/human half-breed (quarter-breed really).

(click to show/hide)

That was my thought on it, since humans and ghouls were obviously compatible at one point.  It could still hold true, and would also explain how such an entity could keep their consumption of human flesh down to a concealable limit (not a full ghoul, not a full apetite).

Quote
One of the most Holy People of the 20th Century a ghoul? The Living Saint she was called when she was alive a GHOUL?! Excuse me?! As a Ghoul there is no way she could have entered some of the Holiest Grounds in the world without being burnt to a crisp!? I am not just talking Christian Holy Places but Hindu as well. She also lived in a Convent and went to Church. She would not be able to do that with that design in the slightest.

There is no way Mother Theresa was a Ghoul! She was a True Believer dear God study the woman.

As DFJunkie points out, there is no proof ghouls are allergic to holy stuff.  I cannot remember any such proof anywhere in the series, though I could be wrong and would welcome page references.  And as for studying her...I have.  I'd be happy to get into that debate with you, if extended riffs involving religion weren't against the rules of the forum.  Suffice it to say that I have come to very different conclusions.
(And as for True Believer, I can argue that, too; read what some of her personal letters, preserved after her death, contain.)

DF Junkie, I was thinking of using her as a mix of Major Power and Antagonist.  I liked the crossover between the Catholic Church and the Sabbat in the Old World of Darkness Material, and I was thinking that this could be very fertile ground for a variety of reasons; the emotions, the imagery...my main allies are actually intended to be the poor most mistreated by those in power, the ones who actually need the help and yet never actually receive the resources and money supposedly earmarked for them.  'Prayer of the Refugee' by Rise Against is some of my inspiration there.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: CMEast on July 28, 2010, 09:12:21 PM
It does state that their catch is wounds from holy objects, however it is specifically wounds whereas things like demons have the catch 'holy items and expressions of true faith'. It's quite possible that ghouls feel uncomfortable around holy objects or in holy places but they wouldn't get hurt. Besides, Mother Teresa was infamous for believing that pain brought people closer to god.

Well, infamous to some, not others. You should be careful to check with the players in your group to see if it's ok. For those that are unhappy with this thread, you should possibly check out some of the documentaries on her, especially the Christopher Hitchens one. You'll find it on youtube pretty easily, I'd post a link but I don't want this to be a debate on her here.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Emburii on July 28, 2010, 10:46:57 PM
In the Dresdenverse, she coul very well consider the discomfort a gift to Christ (I'm stil going to handle her as fairly devout, or at least attempting to be so).  If I go with the idea that her mother was a human and passed on some limited immunity, even that discomfort might be minimized.

Most of them should be all right, though I'll check first anyway. 
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Sh33p on July 29, 2010, 04:54:53 AM
...why not combine Ghoul with True Believer?

Not like we haven't seen crazier things 'round these parts. She was just trying to walk the straight and narrow (within limits) and eventually fell off the bandwagon. ;D
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: chrislackey on July 29, 2010, 07:52:38 AM
Boy, I just read some of the criticisms of Mother Teresa from Hitchens and I gotta say I'm surprised. Again, don't want to make this thread about religious debate.

As for the Ghoul idea... having an endless supply of dying people would be pretty helpful for a ghoul. And if you want to go really dark with it, Christianity loves it's cannibalism! Catholics (as a church) believe in transubstantiation. That the bread and wine actually becomes the blood and body of Christ! I was brought up with that being just fine, but now when I think about it, it's a very bizarre (and kinda gross) ritual.

I could totally see a religious Ghoul perverting that into a justification for cannibalism. A very interesting idea!
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: CMEast on July 29, 2010, 08:44:39 AM
Quote from: chrislackey on July 29, 2010, 07:52:38 AM
As for the Ghoul idea... having an endless supply of dying people would be pretty helpful for a ghoul. And if you want to go really dark with it, Christianity loves it's cannibalism! Catholics (as a church) believe in transubstantiation. That the bread and wine actually becomes the blood and body of Christ! I was brought up with that being just fine, but now when I think about it, it's a very bizarre (and kinda gross) ritual.

I could totally see a religious Ghoul perverting that into a justification for cannibalism. A very interesting idea!

"whatever you did to the least of these, you did to Me" - I've paraphrased the quote as I can't be bothered to look it up right now, but that makes sense. If god is in everyone and if she wants to be closer to god, soylent green might make sense to her :)
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Emburii on July 29, 2010, 09:32:03 AM
Chrislackey, wanting that endless supply of food would also cast new light onto objections to any sort of contraception from such a figure. 

CMEast...I like your choice of pronouns.  :)

I have to read up on the mechanics of the Dresdenverse a bit more.  Crunch has generally been one of my weak points, hence the asking for stat help here, but the GM likes this idea and has me signed up for two stories and I'll have to learn.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 29, 2010, 03:07:10 PM
Quote from: Emburii on July 28, 2010, 08:35:46 PM
That was my thought on it, since humans and ghouls were obviously compatible at one point.  It could still hold true, and would also explain how such an entity could keep their consumption of human flesh down to a concealable limit (not a full ghoul, not a full apetite).

As DFJunkie points out, there is no proof ghouls are allergic to holy stuff.  I cannot remember any such proof anywhere in the series, though I could be wrong and would welcome page references.  And as for studying her...I have.  I'd be happy to get into that debate with you, if extended riffs involving religion weren't against the rules of the forum.  Suffice it to say that I have come to very different conclusions.
(And as for True Believer, I can argue that, too; read what some of her personal letters, preserved after her death, contain.)

DF Junkie, I was thinking of using her as a mix of Major Power and Antagonist.  I liked the crossover between the Catholic Church and the Sabbat in the Old World of Darkness Material, and I was thinking that this could be very fertile ground for a variety of reasons; the emotions, the imagery...my main allies are actually intended to be the poor most mistreated by those in power, the ones who actually need the help and yet never actually receive the resources and money supposedly earmarked for them.  'Prayer of the Refugee' by Rise Against is some of my inspiration there.

Really? Since when has a Ghoul been able to enter the Catholic Church in Dresden Book or am I reading a completely different series? Wait I am not. You are.

Dresden hides in the church and his allies to keep away from the evil and bad stuff like ghouls. Hell no proof? Read the series.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: CMEast on July 29, 2010, 03:18:00 PM
Unless you're in the same game as him UltraTroll, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Besides, we're talking an alternate universe here. All of the churches and hospitals that were set up by her might well have been subverted by her ghoulish nature and so they might not be very church-like, in fact they certainly weren't hospital-like either as people mostly went their to die as they didn't get any aid.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: chrislackey on July 29, 2010, 03:31:27 PM
Quote from: Emburii on July 29, 2010, 09:32:03 AM
Chrislackey, wanting that endless supply of food would also cast new light onto objections to any sort of contraception from such a figure. 

That genuinely creeped me out! I love it! I think those are the scariest/creepiest ideas. When someone or thing believes they are "good" and goes about it with an insane conviction. How do you deal with something like that? 
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Arcteryx on July 29, 2010, 03:35:47 PM
Well, OW59 has their "The Catch [+2] is wounds from holy objects.", so if going according to canon, it'd make sense why ghouls would avoid churches (and other holy places). If the game is set in Calcutta, I'd be interested in seeing the city character sheet, curious to see how others are incorporating local culture, customs, myths, religions and beliefs in a meaningful way.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: DFJunkie on July 29, 2010, 05:04:29 PM
Well, since Emburii is basing the idea off of an idea he got from V:TM I would probably play a little looser with the ideas of "holy" and "faith."  Specifically, the "holy" in question would refer to religions and belief systems where a cannibalistic ghoul is anathema (okay, yes, that's most of them, but hear me out.) 

If Emburii's Mother Teresa comes from a sort of perverted offshot of Catholocism with a twisted idea of man's place in the world, in that monsters such as she have a holy duty to inflict suffering on humankind in an effort to purify them in advance of their eternal reward, and that for a ghoul the act of inflicting suffering and acting according to their nature is a holy act, she could probably get away with being in "holy" places founded by that offshoot.  Hell, she could have her own variant of True Faith under which things like Knights of the Cross would be antithetical, and eligible targets for things like Holy Touch.

Also, since we know that the RCVs have close relations with the largest clan of ghouls (Lechaise if memory serves) they could be instrumental in this perversion of what might be seen as one of the greatest threats to their power base (the Catholic church being big in South and Central America).  If they manage to get most of the people around them to believe that it is man's duty to suffer and the monster's duty to inflict suffering there will be less hostile True Faith out there for the RCVs to contend with.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Emburii on July 29, 2010, 10:55:47 PM
Quote from: UltraTroll on July 29, 2010, 03:07:10 PM
Really? Since when has a Ghoul been able to enter the Catholic Church in Dresden Book or am I reading a completely different series? Wait I am not. You are.

Dresden hides in the church and his allies to keep away from the evil and bad stuff like ghouls. Hell no proof? Read the series.

He hides in the church to keep away from some sorts of enemies, yes, but other than one reference earlier in the series to holy water (and that could have been due to extenuating circumstances) ghouls were never really portrayed as 'unholy', just monstrous.  Salt doesn't hurt ghouls even though t hurts fae, so assuming that all weaknesses hold true across all antagonist creatures seemed kind of silly.  On the other hand...

Quote
Well, OW59 has their "The Catch [+2] is wounds from holy objects.", so if going according to canon, it'd make sense why ghouls would avoid churches (and other holy places). If the game is set in Calcutta, I'd be interested in seeing the city character sheet, curious to see how others are incorporating local culture, customs, myths, religions and beliefs in a meaningful way.
 

There's an actual reference.  At that point I could argue that it is wounds and not just exposure; being stabbed by a crucifix might satisfy the catch, but as suggested earlier, a church might merely be uncomfortable.  RAW, baby.  Holy water might hurt her, but if I do a Scion or a True Faith exception (or both), even that could be minimal.

And chrislackey, your reaction is exactly what I'm looking for.  :)  I want characters to think about what someone is acually doing, not just what they're saying.  I want them to look at their own culture, things they've otherwise taken for granted.  One of my biggest frustrations with Dresden as a protaganist is the way he overlooks so much, and I want better out of my players. 
I want people also to consider the political implications of 'help'; how is the Order of St. Giles going to handle being flooded with newly infected from some of the Ghoul's hospitals, because she has made the grounds unholy and pain-filled enough to let them in?  Do they attack this Catholic 'living saint', even though they're sort of religiously based themselves?  Do they just attack the Red Court Vampires and leave her be, despite the pain she's causing?  How will the PCs react given the same choice, or issued an ultimatum if the Order tells them not to act against her?  The Order of Saint Giles is the only way to control the Hunger, what happens if one of their higher-ups declares that 'heretics' are not to be allowed in?  And that's not including individual reactions without the Order.  And, of course, after Proven Guilty the White Council has an alliance with the Knights and the Order, are the White Council wizards in the party going to take sides?
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: osteomancer on July 30, 2010, 10:44:01 PM
The bare bones of a NPC Sheet for Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu, I am having a hard time determining whether I would myself would want her as a Ghoul, a Half Ghoul Scion, a true believer (I am using Galahade, Knight of the Round Table as a big bad right now). So here is what I have;

Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu

High Concept: Ghoul of Calcutta
Other Aspects: "the call within the call", Sister of Loretto, "Theology of Suffering", "A Humanitarian for the Ages", "Lived like animals, To die like Angels"

Skills:
Contacts +4
Conviction +5
Deceit +3
Discipline +4
Presence +5
Rapport +4
Resources +5
Scholarship +3

Stunts:
Leadership
Weight of Reputation
Devout Words
Tower of Faith

Physical Stress: OO
Social Stress: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence) Armor 1
Mental Stress: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence) Armor 1

Note, For other skills not listed I believe it is personal preference based on creature type, not much is needed for a true believer but for a ghoul you may want some more combat based skills.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Emburii on July 31, 2010, 03:06:17 AM
Quote
Lived like animals, To die like Angels

I like the quote, though I'll probably neaten it up to 'Live Like An Animal, Die Like An Angel'. 


Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Emburii on August 03, 2010, 12:05:55 PM
Well, the Dresdenverse never explicitly makes clear who's manipulating the circumstances...but I would like to point out that the only time we hear of a condom, much less see one, it's been stuffed down someone's throat in order to transfer illicit goods.  Obviously someone's been spreading the 'tiny holes' fallacy or some other such nonsense.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: knnn on August 18, 2010, 07:13:24 PM
Quote from: Emburii on July 28, 2010, 08:35:46 PM
As DFJunkie points out, there is no proof ghouls are allergic to holy stuff.  I cannot remember any such proof anywhere in the series, though I could be wrong and would welcome page references. 

In Grave Peril, when Michael seems surprised that Harry already knows Father Forthill, Harry mentions that he once asked Forthill to bless a barrel of holy water.  He then says "Talk about your surprised ghouls".

Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Synthesse on August 22, 2010, 08:06:25 AM
Guys I was hoping to stat up Gandhi as warmongering count of the Red Court. Help plz?
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Kaldra on August 27, 2010, 04:27:46 AM
dont be an arse, if your truly want help with that start up a new thread
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Sh33p on August 27, 2010, 03:02:22 PM
Quote from: Synthesse on August 22, 2010, 08:06:25 AM
Guys I was hoping to stat up Gandhi as warmongering count of the Red Court. Help plz?
The Butthurt is strong with this one. :D

That said: Couldn't be too hard. Red Court Gandhi could've easily gone the pacifistic route to try and damage the British Empire for his own reasons, then faked his death via assassination to spark the kind of chaotic environment in India that would be well-suited to a hunter of men.

Alternatively: Red Court Gandhi could've been trying to set up some kind of Epic Ritual of Doom that his assassin thwarted under some misinformed pretense.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Becq on August 27, 2010, 08:44:39 PM
Quote from: knnn on August 18, 2010, 07:13:24 PM
In Grave Peril, when Michael seems surprised that Harry already knows Father Forthill, Harry mentions that he once asked Forthill to bless a barrel of holy water.  He then says "Talk about your surprised ghouls".

See OW58 (the text for Ghouls, not the statblock):

Quote
Weaknesses: Affected by holy water.
Unwavering inability to control their appetites
for long. Most are kind of dumb.

Regarding Ghouls and thresholds, I infer the following from the rules (though there are no specific rules for ghouls and thresholds in particular):

* A threshold acts as a block against supernatural creatures.  As this affects Wizards, I imagine it would affect Ghouls, as well.  (Note that this makes entering more difficult, but not impossible.)
* A threshold suppresses some supernatural abilities.  All affected supernatural abilities lose shifts of effectiveness.  Since the books indicate that thresholds provide defense against ghouls, I would assume that their supernatural abilities would be affected.  How much?  Hard to say, though as a first guess I would say that two points of threshold would remove Inhuman Strength and Speed and reduce Supernatural Recovery to Inhuman; four points of threshold would eliminate Recovery, too.  Most likely ghouls would be unable to feed while affected, though they would still be subjected to the negative effects of hunger, etc.  Oh, and any threshold at all would likely nix Human Guise for the duration.
* Some creatures (creatures of spirit) are entirely supernatural in nature and can't cross thresholds at all.  I don't think ghouls would qualify for this, however, as they are nominally semi-human.

Note that holy places have a default threshold strength of 3, but could be higher, especially if inhabited by a person of True Faith (Bless This House would likely increase this to 5).

That said, it isn't entirely clear to me whether you intended your version of Mother Theresa to be a truly holy person who was also a ghoul, or a evil ghoul impersonating a holy person.  Your references to the Sabbat lead me to believe the latter.  In this case, consider that while holy places have thresholds ... not all building that are used as a 'church' are necessarily automatically a holy place.  An evil ghoul might work out of a building that is 'impersonating' a church without actually being one, and therefore without having a threshold.  So the evil Mother Theresa would have no threshold-related problems.  However, the 'church' would also likely have some fairly foul aspects associated with it (Mother Theresa's Cathedral, Where The Other White Meat Is Always Fresh!), which would likely be palpable in some ways to even mere mortals.  And, of course, she'd have severe trouble entering actual holy places.

Of course, these are just my takes on the question.
Title: Re: How would I stat Mother Teresa as a (literal) Ghoul of Calcutta?
Post by: Viatos on August 30, 2010, 06:40:03 PM
Easy way to deal with thresholds and holy stuff is the old Satanic conspiracy standby of desecration. It's a church, but Mother Theresa's cannibal cult has prepared the way and utterly destroyed its threshold, keeping the black masses and human sacrifice confined to the basement and vestibule so the front is still respectable. For added horror you could create a church complex, the kind with adjacent elementary school and dormitory, gates and walls all around, where the depraved monster can satisfy its endless hunger for childflesh in quantity.

Orphans and street urchins can vanish easily enough, but if she wants to enjoy more then a rare repast she'll have to use her cult (who, being human, might well turn out to be more monstrous then she is) to advance poverty and homelessness in the city under the guise of good works and public aid. Programs that appear to lend a helping hand but secretly weaken their beneficiaries spiritually, physically, and financially, cultivating addictions and dependencies and deliberately sabotaging the needy. The image here is a toothy Mother standing above a ledge where a struggling family's lynchpin (his or her dependents clinging to his or her ankles) can barely keep grip, until the ghoul steps forward and crunches down on fingers with a ravenous grin.

Give her strong social and mental skills, and try for unique powers to make it a memorable story arc. One idea might be to use True Faith variants based on Outsider worship that protect her against mortal True Faith and empower her with abominable eldritch might. Use her as a behind-the-scenes monster furthering goals beyond her own appetite, bringing ruin and suffering to the world. Make your players squirm a little. Great challenge for True Faith characters or bleeding heart types.

Love the idea.