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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: MWKilduff on July 28, 2010, 02:13:25 AM
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I wanted to throw out some ideas that would help anyone playing with the spells and their affects.
I designed a wizard that is going to be playing with enchanted items instead of focus items. I am doing this so that it is more difficult to determine what my character would throw around as spells. Versatility is key to keeping reoccurring bad guys from figuring out any weakness your character has and exploiting them. A good example is the flame thrower that was used to damage Dresden's hand. I do not want to mention any more so I do not spoil anything for others here. So, here is the example.
Lightning Ring Weapon 4 (maxed due to my lore)
3X's/Session (2 Slots)
Ring of Watery Blast Weapon 4 (maxed due to my lore)
3X's/Session (2 Slots)
So, for all intents and purposes I figured with the 2 rings and a rote attack spell I have 3 easy to use attack options that will allow my character to bring forth the pain. This will minimize the mental stress taken by my character, and allow me to have 3 diverse rote spells for blocks, maneuvers, and the like.
With these 2 items as my example I was thinking that I could use the Watery Blast Ring 1st and then Tag the drenched aspect of the character to increase the damage or make the hit easier of the Lightning Ring. Opinions and suggestions, or your spell and magic item combos would be appreciated. I look forward to seeing everyone's ideas. I have been reading this forum for a while now and I have to say I am impressed with the level of knowledge and sneakiness, so have at it!
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With these 2 items as my example I was thinking that I could use the Watery Blast Ring 1st and then Tag the drenched aspect of the character to increase the damage or make the hit easier of the Lightning Ring.
Your average Weapon: 4 attack using water magic is likely raw entropy, since actual water isn't likel to make good direct attacks. Perhaps more importantly, you can't just add Aspects to someone with an attack unless you have some specific effect saying so.
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If you're going to go with Enchanted Items, you should definitely take advantage of the fact that defensive items can activate on their own as a Free Action.
Also, something just occurred to me. If you want versatility, what about an Enchanted Item that does nothing but hold extra energy for you? Have one programmed to cast a spell that performs a navel gazing Maneuver to apply an Aspect like Flush With Power or Attuned To The Flow to yourself that you can tag for other spellcasting actions.
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I just re-read part of the Evocation section and am wondering about something.
Using a focus item may give you a +1 bonus either to Conviction (making it safer to summon one more shift of power) or Discipline (making it easier to control the spell) for a specific application.
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A highly personal focus item may also be one of your aspects and could provide additional bonuses via invocation.
That second part is from the same section. Does that mean that I can Invoke Aspects to increase my effective Conviction and push the threshold of energy that I can summon?
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I just re-read part of the Evocation section and am wondering about something.
That second part is from the same section. Does that mean that I can Invoke Aspects to increase my effective Conviction and push the threshold of energy that I can summon?
I don't think so, but you can Invoke them on the Control roll, increasing the amount of Power you can safely summon, which has the same effect for most purposes (since filling in the first and third Stress boxes is very similar indeed mechanically).
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I don't think so, but you can Invoke them on the Control roll, increasing the amount of Power you can safely summon, which has the same effect for most purposes (since filling in the first and third Stress boxes is very similar indeed mechanically).
But the highlighted sentence is from the same section as the first and refers to all the Focus Item bonuses without making a distinction between a Conviction or Discipline.
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But the highlighted sentence is from the same section as the first and refers to all the Focus Item bonuses without making a distinction between a Conviction or Discipline.
Right, but it says 'additional bonuses', not 'an increased bonus' implying an entirely different sort of bonus, which is precisely what an Invoked Aspect does.
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Using a focus item may give you a +1 bonus either to Conviction (making it safer to summon one more shift of power) or Discipline (making it easier to control the spell) for a specific application.
A single focus item slot, as granted by various Spellcraft powers (page 179), grants a +1 bonus. For evocation focuses, this bonus may be applied to either the wizard’s offensive power (Conviction) or offensive control (Discipline) or defensive power (Conviction) or defensive control (Discipline).
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Right, but it says 'additional bonuses', not 'an increased bonus' implying an entirely different sort of bonus, which is precisely what an Invoked Aspect does.
Again, I don't see where it makes a distinction. There's also a precedent in Thaumaturgy, in which you can invoke Aspects to increase your effective passive Lore rating.
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From p. 99, on Aspect uses:
Re-rolls are riskier than just taking the +2 bonus
So the normal Aspect usage for a +2 can also be referred to as a bonus. It's not some arcane game term, it just means something that can add to something else.
Again, I don't see where it makes a distinction. There's also a precedent in Thaumaturgy, in which you can invoke Aspects to increase your effective passive Lore rating.
But that's explicit. Normally you can only use Aspect Invoke on a roll, and your base Conviction isn't a roll, so barring an explicit statement (which would be a lot more explicit than what you're referencing...the guys at Evil Hat are pretty clear on that stuff, and certainly not limited to only when you have an Aspect for a Focus Item) it doesn't work that way.
This isn't a balance thing, it's not unbalanced, but it's not the way the rules work.
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Also, something just occurred to me. If you want versatility, what about an Enchanted Item that does nothing but hold extra energy for you? Have one programmed to cast a spell that performs a navel gazing Maneuver to apply an Aspect like Flush With Power or Attuned To The Flow to yourself that you can tag for other spellcasting actions.
That would be supremely useful.
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I think you can invoke an Aspect to increase your effective Conviction rating for the purposes of summoning energy, but only if that Aspect is a Focus Item.
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That would be supremely useful.
Actually, wouldn't a potion that does the same thing be a more economical choice?
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Actually, wouldn't a potion that does the same thing be a more economical choice?
Why? They use the same number of item slots.
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Actually, wouldn't a potion that does the same thing be a more economical choice?
If you were to optimize for potions, absolutely (in which case, pair that effect with the Stimulant potion for more fun). But for more of a generalist, two enchanted item slots seem to better spent on an item with 3 uses per session than on two potions. This conclusion assumes the following: character with Lore (+4); didn't take their Thaumaturgy specialty in Frequency (if they do it becomes a dead-tie); and that they're only willing to expend two enchanted item slots to achieve the effect.
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Question answered. I love the system's flexibility in that there are so many ways to achieve similar results.
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Question answered. I love the system's flexibility in that there are so many ways to achieve similar results.
I was more looking for ideas that allowed me to come up with some more fun combos. I am familiar with the use of aspects, so that is not a concern. I am looking for opinions and suggestions for spells that can cause tags, or your spell and magic item combos would be appreciated.
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Your average Weapon: 4 attack using water magic is likely raw entropy, since actual water isn't likel to make good direct attacks. Perhaps more importantly, you can't just add Aspects to someone with an attack unless you have some specific effect saying so.
Actually water naturally is the most destructive force on the planet. Water at high pressure can knock down walls or cut through stone like a saw. I was thinking something along the lines of a high pressure stream of water for the Watery Blast Ring. After being hit with any kind of attack there may be an aspect that you could invoke. A force blast could leave someone with the "off balance" aspect. This is above and beyond the consequences that can be accepted to soak up some stress. This system really seems to give the players and GM incentive to tag, invoke, or declare aspects. I hope that clarifies what I was looking for in this posting.
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After being hit with any kind of attack there may be an aspect that you could invoke. A force blast could leave someone with the "off balance" aspect. This is above and beyond the consequences that can be accepted to soak up some stress.
Actually, not in the rules as written. To use a force blast to apply an off balance aspect, you would use it as a maneuver, not doing any damage. Unless houseruled, of course. Though, I can see having spin apply a fragile aspect of "off balance" or some such.
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Actually, not in the rules as written. To use a force blast to apply an off balance aspect, you would use it as a maneuver, not doing any damage. Unless houseruled, of course. Though, I can see having spin apply a fragile aspect of "off balance" or some such.
This is more or less what I was trying to say. Attacks don't leave Aspects behind (well, not except for Consequences, anyway)...that's what Maneuvers are for. The few exceptions are very specific and somewhat expensive.
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This whole notion of aspects being the result of an attack is something I've been wrestling with since reading the books. The idea that a fire spell could burn a foe and slap an "On Fire!" aspect on them is one that I think should be in there someplace, but I don't want to just suddenly create a Maneuvers + Damage combo attack as that puts a LOT more power in to the hands of already very powerful characters.
I have toyed with the idea of a spell's Spin enabling an aspect, and if I did that I'd open that possibility for any action to do the same, effectively making a fragile aspect a boon to any Spin-producing roll (which really isn't a half-bad idea). Maybe, to help "balance" it out a bit more, an aspect generated in such a fashion cannot be tagged, but must be invoked (you have to spend a fate point, you don't get to do it for free) making it something that the PCs have to actually want to create (thus their story influence effort). Thoughts?
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This is more or less what I was trying to say. Attacks don't leave Aspects behind (well, not except for Consequences, anyway)...that's what Maneuvers are for. The few exceptions are very specific and somewhat expensive.
In this specific case I have to disagree with you. After being hit by a blast of water the target is obviously wet. There is an "wet" aspect there. What you don't get is a free tag on that aspect unless you performed a manoeuvre to place it there. You have to spend a fate point to invoke it.
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Well, going with the notion that a water spell could make one wet, how would that be effect spell casters? Would there be an increase in required spell power? An increase in control difficulty? A compel to eliminate casting altogether? That treads in dangerous waters (man, pun-damage is fun!) when it comes to the application of anti-caster magic, does it not?
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Well, going with the notion that a water spell could make one wet, how would that be effect spell casters? Would there be an increase in required spell power? An increase in control difficulty? A compel to eliminate casting altogether? That treads in dangerous waters (man, pun-damage is fun!) when it comes to the application of anti-caster magic, does it not?
Personally, my take would be that just being wet, even if one were soaked to the bone, isn't really an impediment to spellcasting as it's only running water (or large bodies of water like a lake) which ground out magic. That said, mechanically I'd tend toward treating the effect like a Threshold, pulling away some of the shifts of power the caster summons up and thereby weakening his magic, or possibly grounding it out completely were they fool enough to try something while standing in a torrential downpour. And if you're facing down a creature or an evoker of that capability (calling up a downpour on the fly), you've probably got bigger problems on your hands.
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Well, going with the notion that a water spell could make one wet, how would that be effect spell casters? Would there be an increase in required spell power? An increase in control difficulty? A compel to eliminate casting altogether? That treads in dangerous waters (man, pun-damage is fun!) when it comes to the application of anti-caster magic, does it not?
Read the original post. MWKilduff wanted to throw a combination of evocations. First, a water blast attack. Then a lightning attack that took advantage of the fact that the target was drenched from the first attack. Since the first evocation was an attack and not a manoeuvre there is no free tag on a drenched aspect; but that target is drenched so he might be able to spend a fate point to invoke the drenched aspect.
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If you hit with the Water Blast try and go for giving the target the Consequence "Drenched" this should then give you the free Tag on "Drenched" for your Lightning Bolt. Or at least that's how I'd handle the effect you seem to be looking for mechanically. Consequences are just the Aspects you can place on people with a successful attack.
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Remember that even if the attack (or spell) "connects", if the target doesn't take consequences from it, they may have barely dodged out of the way, but at the cost of getting more fatigued, etc. So unless that water evocation hits and does a consequence, I'd say there's no taggable aspect... unless there were a lot of extra shifts on the attack. Spin may justify it.
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Thanks Doc Nova. You are right on the money. I was looking for smart ways to cause tags and use them to my advantage not only as the player but as the GM. I saw a nice Magnetic Block then Metal Thrust that sucks up all the metal ranged attacks and then throws them back the next round when you attack all using Earth Evocation and Magnetism. I thought the water and electricity combo was nice and simple. Other thoughts are a maneuver than locks you to the floor and a knock back spell that would cause the people locked down to break or damage their legs. I need some more ideas.
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Hmmm... I'm seeing both sides of this argument rather clearly. Here's another question: actions perpetrated by characters, both PC and NPC, affect the environment around them. Let's say that Harry uses a fire evocation to hit a baddie. Billy (The GM, obviously ;D ) describes the attack as setting stuff on fire--maybe because of backlash, maybe just for flavor.
Then comes the interesting part. Can Harry then use an assessment or declaration to add the aspect "The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault." to the scene? Seems to me that he could. As a GM, I'd likely allow it. Likewise if a player wanted to place a water-based Aspect after using a water evocation. However, they'd have to use the action and Fate point to do it.
Opinions?
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Hmmm... I'm seeing both sides of this argument rather clearly. Here's another question: actions perpetrated by characters, both PC and NPC, affect the environment around them. Let's say that Harry uses a fire evocation to hit a baddie. Billy (The GM, obviously ;D ) describes the attack as setting stuff on fire--maybe because of backlash, maybe just for flavor.
Then comes the interesting part. Can Harry then use an assessment or declaration to add the aspect "The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault." to the scene? Seems to me that he could. As a GM, I'd likely allow it. Likewise if a player wanted to place a water-based Aspect after using a water evocation. However, they'd have to use the action and Fate point to do it.
Opinions?
None, other than this is one of the ways you are supposed to use Assessments and Declarations. And take note that once you've spent the action declaring or assessing an Aspect you get to Tag it for free without spending a Fate Point.
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None, other than this is one of the ways you are supposed to use Assessments and Declarations. And take note that once you've spent the action declaring or assessing an Aspect you get to Tag it for free without spending a Fate Point.
This. Declaring or Assessing takes a round, and if you do that, then you can tag the Aspect created...but you can't attack, then attack again and Tag on the second one, you need to do the Assessment or Declaration between those two.
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My point precisely. It's doable, but you gotta do it step by step.
It really could be a setup for a bunch of killer combos. Water attack followed by water aspect declaration followed by ice attack, etc.
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Use of Aspects in "powering" spells.
Having checked out the Spellcasting (Evocation) rules again, there is some room to interpret the role of Aspects when casting Evocations.
On YS page# 255
evocation is too quick and dirty to use other power sources the way a thaumaturgical spell can (page 267).
With a note from Harry in the sidebar stating
Stuff like Hellfire can be brought to bear pretty quickly for evocation.
On YS page #267 under power sources for thaumaturgy, it references YS page 248.
On YS page #248 is the following list of sources to power a wizard's spells.
- Himself
- Willing creatures
- Unwilling magical creatures
- Objects that store power
- The environment
- Outside reality
With that list in mind, that the Wizard is a source of power for his own spells, then it suggests that a wizard's aspects could be used to 'boost' the power of an evocation. For example, a background aspect of Seventh Generation Member of the White Council could be used to temporarily increase the character's Conviction score by +2, thus increasing the amount of power they themselves can provide an evocation.
At the same time, on YS page #256 there is no limit applied to the amount of power a wizard can put into an evocation, apart from the wizard's own limited ability to handle a given amount of stress. For evocations up to the Conviction skill in power, a wizard only suffers 1 point of Mental stress. For every additional point of power beyond the Conviction skill a wizard pumps into an evocation, an additional point of Mental stress is suffered.
Now from a storytelling perspective, I can see times when it would be dramatically appropriate for a player or group to be able to tap normally unused reserves of power (via spending Fate points) to get that 'extra' oomph added onto a blast of fire/water/lightning/whatever. Or should aspects (and Fate points) only be allowed to Control an evocation, not power one?
Incidentally, I tend to agree with Harry's sidebar comment to the effect that Sponsored magic can potentially be used to increase the power of an evocation. One grey area here though involves Ley lines. In the section on Sponsored magic on page 292 of YS, Places of Power, Sponsored magic of this type can be used to augment the power available to a wizard from their Conviction. However, it would also seem sensible for some Places of Power to have aspects like Potent Ley Line, which could then be Tagged to increase the power of a spell as well. Particularly in situations where a caster is located at specific places but has not become attuned to them (taken Sponsored Magic: Places of Power for the particular location).
Hence my interest in the thoughts of others as to what/how this should be done?
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Well the here's the way you handle powering Evocations with Aspects. Aspects add to rolls, or allow rerolls. So as far as Evocation goes, Aspects effect the Discipline roll to control or target the spell, not the power of the spell. If a player wants to cast a powerful Evocation with lots of shifts of power, they are probably going to need to Tag or Invoke some Aspects to control or target it.
If you wanted to tag a ley line to power an Evocation, then you would make an Assessment or Declaration to create or discover the "Ley Line" aspect. Then you would tag the "Ley Line" aspect when you made the roll on the spell for whatever bonus you wanted from it.