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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tbora on July 20, 2010, 10:42:31 PM

Title: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 20, 2010, 10:42:31 PM: I am looking to build a Demon Summoner for my character, problem is I am not sure how to go about that.

The power level I am using is 18 refresh, 60 skill points, capped at fantastic.

Here is what I have so far:

Powers:

[-3] Evocation
[-3] Thaumaturgy
[-2] Sponsored Magic – Faustian Bargain: Standard sponsored magic benefits. • Faustian Bargain comes automatic, additional specializations in Summoning/Binding: +1 to control, +1 to complexity, stacking on top of any existing specializations. • Grants Summoning/Binding at speed and methods of evocation • (Flavor - The Sponsor provides the name for the Demon Summoned)

I figure the rest will probably go into refinements, but I don't really understand the mechanics beyond this. :P
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 20, 2010, 11:04:52 PM: Well you're really going to want to come up with some Aspects for your character, because that's where all the juicy details about your character come from. Aspects are descriptive words or phrases that summarize the type of stories you're hoping to tell with your character.

Characters generally have seven Aspects, and the process of coming up with them really helps you to get in character as well as helping your Game Master work your character into his or her story.

The first Aspect is the High Concept, which is basically the core concept of the character. This would be the phrase you would use to describe the character to someone in a short conversation and is something that probably isn't meant to ever change about the character. Harry Dresden, for example, has the High Concept Wizard Private Eye.

The next Aspect you pick is called your Trouble, which is basically a description about what kind of problems your character consistently has, the kinds of things that drive the character to do what she does. Harry is often faced with the choice of exercising the immense potential for power that he has, making his Trouble The Temptation Of Power.

Someone else can tell you about the other Aspects, since I have to go back to work.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 20, 2010, 11:18:49 PM: From previous experience, I'd say Tbora's pretty good on the Aspect front, it's more the mechanical part that's troublesome.

In terms of mechanics, well, it really depends on how focused you want this guy to be on Summoning, and whether you want him to be able to summon stuff to kill human beings (necessitating Lawbreaker and meaning the Wardens are on his ass or will be shortly).
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 20, 2010, 11:38:48 PM: Quote from: Deadmanwalking on July 20, 2010, 11:18:49 PM
From previous experience, I'd say Tbora's pretty good on the Aspect front, it's more the mechanical part that's troublesome.

Oops, sorry Tbora! I don't mean to be condescending.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 12:14:06 AM: Quote from: Ophidimancer on July 20, 2010, 11:38:48 PM
Oops, sorry Tbora! I don't mean to be condescending.

No problem, no harm no foul, as the saying goes.

But yeah what I need help with is mostly the mechanics.

As for your question DWM, yeah I want him to be able to summon things that are lethal, so lawbreakers (1st Law) are going to be necessary.

As for how specialized: As much so as possible.

This character I am picturing as a significantly more intelligent and competent version of Binder.

Enough so, that he can summon pretty badass demons on the fly (think around 10-15 refresh on average) casually, and something like the Scarecrow (purely example, by that I mean the REALLY tough dudes at 25 refresh) with a lot of effort.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 21, 2010, 01:43:21 AM: A 10-15 refresh Demon is not "pretty badass." It is a lean, mean, killing machine. We're talking something that can pull Supernatural Strength, Toughness, Speed AND Recovery, with a point left over for Claws, thanks to the "holy stuff" Catch, at 15. You could go from this all-rounder 15 to a specialized Hunter-Killer at a mere 10 with Cloak of Shadows, Supernatural Speed/Strength, and perhaps Inhuman Recovery (for hit and run). Or a Facestomp McDaywrecker with Mythic Strength, Claws, and Hulking Size for a mere 9!

With 25 Refresh, we're not talking "really tough dudes." We're talking "its either a heavily Refined Spellcaster or an incarnate god-monster." Think Mythic EVERYTHING. Because that is readily available. Alternately, think Physical Immunity with a +0 Catch, layered onto the kind of stopping power that makes Uber-Ghouls think twice about engaging--Mythic Strength, Sacred Guardian or an ACAEBG equivalent, and Psychic attacks like Domination just because.

If you want a combat servitor that can put the hurt on your average practitioner or even lesser Denarian, you've got it with a couple of mid-refresh beasties. What you're discussing is something for engaging entire Ghoul Clans or Ogre warbands.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 01:47:31 AM: In case you missed it:

This character is for an 18 refresh game, where the enemies on average will have 20-30 refresh.

So engaging an entire ghoul clan is not out of the question.

I know what I am talking about.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 02:40:37 AM: You're making a Pokèmon trainer, in essence. No offense, that's just the term I use for characters with a stable of pets they pull out for fights. I think my advice would be to have these demons statted up as characters in their own right, just that they all have the Extreme Consequence of being bound to serve and obey your character.

The whole process of summoning, containing, and binding an entity takes awhile and doesn't make for entertaining gaming, in my opinion. Especially for the stable of pets that are supposed to be at your beck and call. You shouldn't have to waste screen time summoning them and fighting them into submission every time you want to unleash them on your foes.

What I would suggest is definitely creating your stable of pets, stat them out and give them names, so not only can you keep track of their mechanics, but you can also give them personalities and make them supporting NPC's.

Then, give them an automatic Extreme Consequence of being bound to serve and obey you, representing the fact that you magically beat them into submission with Thaumaturgy sometime in the past and inflicted servitude upon them.

Then I would suggest getting some sort of pre-programmed way of summoning them from the Nevernever. Oh, about that, I'd also suggest giving all your demons Swift Transition and No Mortal Home for convenience.

This pre-programmed summons could either be an Enchanted Item, or a Rote. I think I would suggest a Rote, so you're not limited in the number of times per session you can summon something, but you may want the Enchanted Item so that you don't take stress for summoning. Your Rotes or Enchanted Items would have to be programmed with enough strength to beat the resistance of your demons, so you'll probably want to take a lot of Refinements to pump up your power.

Now you have some pre-set ways to summon demons without having to take entire scenes away from game to do so. You'll probably have to browbeat your demons every once in awhile, when plot appropriate, to reassert yourself as their lord and master.

You'll also still have the chops to summon and bind something new if need be, but the acquisition of a new demon should be significant enough to spend some screen time on it.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 02:52:25 AM: Not what I was looking for exactly, buts its an interesting solution.

Can you help me go through and do this mechanically then?
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 21, 2010, 03:17:39 AM: Hm. I have difficulty imagining a Dresdenverse game where 20-30 refresh of opponents in a fight is "typical" without some massive shifts in genre assumptions, but I can understand and respect that not everyone has the same views as me on such topics. I apologize if I came off as overly strong or condescending. It was not my intent--I was just operating on a surprised footing.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 06:38:32 AM: Bump, can I get some help for this please?
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 21, 2010, 06:58:22 AM: I'm really busy tonight, but I'll try and have something for you by tomorrow.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 03:23:15 PM: Deadman, you are a saint.

If I were a catholic I would be sure to nominate you to the pope ten years after you die.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: ballplayer72 on July 21, 2010, 03:26:07 PM: Quote from: Deadmanwalking on July 20, 2010, 11:18:49 PM
From previous experience, I'd say Tbora's pretty good on the Aspect front, it's more the mechanical part that's troublesome.

In terms of mechanics, well, it really depends on how focused you want this guy to be on Summoning, and whether you want him to be able to summon stuff to kill human beings (necessitating Lawbreaker and meaning the Wardens are on his ass or will be shortly).

but Binder can kill humans with his lackeys without busting the First Law. I'm confused (otherwise harry woulda offed him or morgan would've)
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 03:44:46 PM: Ok, so let's say you have a stable of four demons that you have defeated and enslaved:

Grimnos - A nasty little homunculus that looks like a naked old man with a bald head, bat-like ears, and a filthy tongue. He was the first demon you enslaved, with a Conviction score low enough (+0) that your apprentice level skills could best, but with the useful ability to throw bolts of fire from his hands as a Breath Weapon.

Mezz'Thun - A squat creature of living shadow, this demon speaks in a hollow voice and is as featureless as ink, except for twin points of lambent flames that serve as its eyes. Made of a bit sterner stuff than your imp (Conviction +1), it's still rather single minded, though useful for a Stunt that allows it to extrude tentacles of its substance and Grapple multiple targets, as well as its ability to take damage, since it has Armor 2 from Supernatural Toughness with a Catch of Holy attacks.

Belliona - A seductive demoness who approached you about making a pact. You're still not sure as to her reasons, but you have definitely benefited from the relationship. If it weren't for her tail and horns she'd be a strikingly beautiful woman of seemingly Middle Eastern descent. She uses her Human Guise, a Superb Rapport score, and her Incite Emotion (Lust) to good effect against your enemies and for the entertainment of your friends. Quite a bit more willful than your first two demons, Belliona has Good (+3) Conviction.

Thul'Zan - A minor noble in the demon hierarchy, Thul'Zan gave you the fight of your life when you summoned him. Manifesting as a hulking humanoid with plates of spiked armor fused into its skin and a greatsword the size of an I-beam, this demon's Great (+4) Conviction meant that you were moments away from being decapitated and eaten when you managed to beat him by the skin of your mental teeth. Grudgingly he knelt and swore fealty to you. This is your heavy hitter with Inhuman Speed, Supernatural Toughness, and Supernatural Strength.

I'm going to assume that the Containment and Binding parts are already done and just concentrate on the Summoning spell. According to YS273, when summoning an entity, the complexity of the spell has to beat the creature's Conviction roll, suggesting a complexity of 10 to be a good round number to beat the best roll of something with Superb (+5) Conviction.

According to YS288, using Sponsored Magic to summon quickly basically works like Evocation, you summon shifts of Power and then roll Discipline to control the spell. You take one hit of +1 stress for summoning the power and then one hit of (Final Spell Complexity - (Conviction + Complexity Bonus*)) stress. The Discipline roll is made at the Difficulty of the total shifts of power summoned.

* I'm allowing +Thaumaturgical Complexity to factor in here instead of +Evocation Power because I think your Faustian Bargain bonus should count when summoning demons.

To be able to summon Grimnos (Conviction +0) reliably, for example, you're going to want to summon at least 5 shifts of power to beat a possible roll of +4 on his part. Then you'll need to roll a 5 or more with Discipline to control the spell. Let's say you have a Conviction +5 and Discipline +5, which I'd highly recommend. Then the default specialization bonus you get from having Thaumaturgy (+1 Diabolism Complexity, let's say) as well as the bonuses you get from Faustian Bargain (+1 Complexity, +1 Control) give you an effective Conviction +7 and Discipline +6. You can easily summon the power and control to get you your imp, you can even take it as a Rote, if you want, meaning that you can decide to take an automatic +0 roll and forgo the possibility of getting a negative roll.

To summon Thul'Zan (Conviction +4), on the other hand, you'd want to summon 9 shifts of power. This means that you would take a 3-stress hit, 1 automatic plus 2 for the difference between 9 and your effective Conviction of 7. Then you'd need to meet or beat 9 on a Discipline roll. Better pump some Fate Points into this. You could also take Refinements to get more Focus Item slots and increase your effective Conviction and Discipline scores for the purposes of summoning your demons. Each Refinement gives you +2 to your Focus Items. Take 3 Refinements and you can pump yourself up to an effective Conviction +9 and Discipline +10. With those kinds of scores, you can be summoning even Conviction +5 demons with a Rote.

All of this, of course, depends on the Conviction scores of the demons you want to summon. This requires adjudication by your GM as to how much Conviction a particular demon should have.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: CMEast on July 21, 2010, 03:44:54 PM: Ok, so I gave it a go. It's not perfect and I'm bound to have missed something but we'll see.

My first thought was that summoning a creature means that you now have two characters running around to control which takes time away from other players and my second thought was that if you get hit/damaged while your demon is running around then what happens to the summoning spell. My final concern was to make it possible to bind the demon quickly but it still be a powerful spell i.e. not easy to cast.

So working with Ophidimancer's suggestion that they start with an extreme consequence like 'PC is my master' (the demons have previously been bound by you, you know their name, you've been given power over them etc) I came up with this idea.

You cast the spell, it takes an exchange or two but that summons the creature AND creates a ward around you. It's a 8 shift block that lasts the duration of the scene, as does the summoning. The summoned demon appears in the same zone as you and you basically control it like you would your normal character. Every exchange the demon tries to escape control, rolled as a mental conflict between you and the demon, it's conviction attacking your discipline.

With the build below you can:
Handle a summoning ritual of up to complexity 16 without preparation.
Complexity = Lore (6) + refinements (4) + focus item (6)

Control up to 10 shifts of power each exchange, 12 if your demon might kill things. With a few aspects invoked/tagged and a source of power (sacrifice or sponsor) you could technically cast it in one exchange. Otherwise you can cast it in two or three exchanges depending on how much mental stress you want to take.

The spell is:
Demonic Summoning: Complexity is 16 Shift Ritual
Barrier - a 8 shift ward (block) surrounding the caster only (using focus item)
Summoning complexity - 8 shifts

Quote
--18 Refresh--
[-3] Thaumaturgy
[-3] Sponsored Magic – Faustian Bargain & Hell-fire channelling
[-2] Lawbreaker (First Law) (+2 to casting roll for casting spells that will result in breaking the First Law)
[-5] Refinements (specialisation bonuses)
+1 Ward Control (Bonus for Thaumaturgy)
+2 Ward Complexity
+3 Summoning Control
+4 Summoning Complexity
[-4] Item of Power - Demonic Chain.

Demonic Chain
This item, granted due to a demonic bargain with a Lord of Hell, allows the wielder to summon demonic forces to his aid. It's a long, heavy chain that can be wielded like a whip or flail, covered in vicious barbs and engraved with demonic runes that hunger to taste blood. The weapons true strength, is in it's ability to create binds and wards. At a command, it can bind an opponent, causing him to writhe in pain as if he were wrapped in barbed wire. A second command can cause it to form a perfect, solid circle around the wielder; spinning and floating in mid-air as a barrier forms, or wrapping around the wielder as armour.
Weapon: 3, counts as Unholy, unbreakable
[+2] One-time discount
[-1] Blood Thirsty: When swung in keeping with it's purpose, it grants a +1 to wielders weapon skill.
[-1] The PC can summon the Demonic Chain to his hand with a thought
[-4] Refinements (additional focus item slots, on top of ) which are spent as:
[6 Focus Slots] Focus Item: +6 to Complexity (Summoning), +2 to Control (Summoning)
[2 Enchanted Item Slots] Enchanted Item: Fantastic (+6) Defensive Block 3 times a session.
[2 Enchanted Item Slots] Enchanted Item: Superb (+5) Offensive Block, lasting for 3 exchanges, once a session. Uses Discipline to target, opposed by Endurance.

Total refresh is -17

--60 Skill Points--
Fantastic (+6): Conviction, Lore
Superb (+5): Discipline, Athletics, Endurance
Great (+4): Alertness, Deceit, Weapons
Good (+3): Presence, Rapport, Resources
Fair (+2): Contacts, Driving, Scholarship, Stealth
Average (+1): Burglary, Guns, investigation, Survival

and some sample demons:

This one is based on the Scarecrow which you've mentioned.

Quote
High Concept: Fear Demon
Other Aspects: Nightmare Incarnate,
Skills
Alertness: Good (+3)
Athletics: Good (+3)
Conviction: Superb (+4)
Deceit: Great (+4)
Endurance: Good (+3)
Fists: Great (+4)
Intimidation: Superb (+5)
Might: Good (+3)
Most other skills default to Average or Fair.

Stunts
Smell Fear (Investigation): +2 to Investigation rolls to home in on or locate a source of fear.
Worst Nightmare: +2 to intimidation

Powers:
[–2] Glamours
[-1] Emotional Vampire(Fear)
[-2] Ranged Incite Emotion
[-4] Psychic Shapeshifting - always looks like the viewers worst nightmare, skills don't change.
[-8] Physical Immunity - Can't be hurt by anyone scared of him.
[+5] The Catch (Stacked) is anyone not scared of him.
[–1] Claws (in any form it takes)
[–1] Spider Walk
[-1] Wings (not always visible, depending on the viewers nightmare)
[–4] Supernatural Strength
[–4] Supernatural Toughness
[–4] Supernatural Recovery
[+3] Catch is holy items and expressions of genuine faith.

Total refresh is -25

This one is just a melee monster

Quote
High Concept: Demonic Squid Pig
Other aspects: Bestial Rage, Blind, Heartbeat Hunter

Alertness: Average (+1)
Athletics: Average (+1)
Conviction: Great (+4)
Endurance: Superb (+5)
Fists: Superb (+4)
Might: Superb (+5)
Other other physical skills default to Good, the rest to Fair.

Stunts
Sensitive hearing (Alertness): +4 to Alertness when listening for heartbeats if there's no other loud, distracting noises around.
Tentacled Monstrosity (Might): +2 when using Might to grapple.

Powers
[-1] Aquatic
[-1] Supernatural Sense
[-6] Mythic Strength
[-6] Mythic Toughness
[-6] Mythic Recovery
[+4] Catch is holy items, expressions of genuine faith, if subjected to extremely loud noises.
Total Refresh Cost: –16

And this one is so that I'm not just perpetuating the 'angry demon' stereotype
Quote
High Concept: Demonic Scout
Other aspects: One head two bodies, not a fighter

Alertness: Superb (+5)
Athletics: Great (+4)
Burglary: Fair (+2)
Conviction: Good (+3)
Stealth: Good (+3)
Survival: Fair (+2)
Other other skills default to Average.

Stunts:
[-1] Fear-fueled strength: When either body is in danger, it gets +4 to conviction as long as it doesn't attack.

Powers
[-1] Claws
[-1] Diminutive Size
[-1] Spider Walk
[-1] Cloak of Shadows
[-1] Psychometry
[-3] Broad Supernatural Senses
[-2] Greater Glamours (depicting holograms)
[-2] Inhuman Speed
Total Refresh Cost: -12
Note: While the 'head' (a vile rat-like thing with huge, bulbous eyes and vicious fangs) goes off to scout, the 'body' (imagine a TV made of flesh, covered in tiny mouths with one large mouth for a screen, inside of which is a pool of swirling ectoplasm) shows you everything the head sees, using glamours to provide a picture and the mouths for sound.

Hah, beaten to it by Ophidimancer :) Well if we all try I'm sure we'll find a reasonable version. Also, without lawbreaker there'd be more refresh available for non-demonic spells :)
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Crion on July 21, 2010, 03:49:18 PM: Just thought I'd pop in and ask: which mechanics are you uncertain about? The Refinement section, the idea of summoning on the fly, or statting the beasties (which CMEast seems to have offered a solution to)?

Otherwise, you have a pretty solid set of abilities there (although I would personally suggest taking The Sight), and I would surely side with you on Refinements. Stunts are going to be something to consider as well, especially Lore and Resources stunts, among others.

Now, when it comes to the summoning at the speed of Evocation, I can see that being done with something as simple as the True Name of the beast. Things like the ritual circle and whatnot can be done in your head, as Harry noted on a few cases,
(click to show/hide)
performed in Changes when he "summoned" Mab
(Changes Spoiler), or as being part of your character's Bargain. Those kind of flavor things help to make sense of it. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 03:52:35 PM: Quote from: CMEast on July 21, 2010, 03:44:54 PM
Hah, beaten to it by Ophidimancer :) Well if we all try I'm sure we'll find a reasonable version.

Only beat you by 8 seconds! :)

We also offered different kinds of advice, so I'm sure it's all good.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 03:54:00 PM: Quote from: Crion on July 21, 2010, 03:49:18 PM
Now, when it comes to the summoning at the speed of Evocation, I can see that being done with something as simple as the True Name of the beast. Things like the ritual circle and whatnot can be done in your head, as Harry noted on a few cases,
(click to show/hide)
performed in Changes when he "summoned" Mab
(Changes Spoiler), or as being part of your character's Bargain. Those kind of flavor things help to make sense of it. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Or, if he gives his demons the Extreme Consequence that I suggested, I guess you could just spend a Fate Point and compel the demon to automatically fail in resisting your summons or commands.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: CMEast on July 21, 2010, 03:55:21 PM: Quote from: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 03:52:35 PM
Only beat you by 8 seconds! :)

We also offered different kinds of advice, so I'm sure it's all good.

Hah yeah, that's why I edited to squeeze my reply in to yourself and DMW, otherwise my post might have been pushed on to page 3 :P
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 04:05:52 PM: I have to say; both of your solutions are ingenious, I have to say for a regular old submerged game your concept works best Ophidimancer as that could concievably be done with a ten refresh character (the demons you created for it I mean), where as you CMEast works best for the higher end refresh game because it fits the level of potency needed for my 18 refresh game.

Bravo.

If I could combine the two ways of doing it, that would be awesome.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 04:17:00 PM: Well, you can always tweak the numbers from my example to fit you Refresh level. I just wanted to show an example of the summoning process.

My approach specifically only covers having a stable of regularly summoned demons, which I think is a staple of demon binder characters.

The important number to look at is the Conviction score of the demon you want bound.

You should look over YS 272-3 for the full scoop on how to Summon and Bind a new demon.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 06:05:25 PM: Thanks, answer me this, which of the two builds is more effective yours or CMEast's?
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 06:27:30 PM: Well CM's would be more effective, since he actually gave you a build. I just gave you the bare bones of a build (Conviction 5, Discipline 5) in order to zoom in on the mechanics of summoning.

I see that CMEast recommended that you go with Specializations instead of Focus Items, and that's alright, too, since you have the Refresh for it. Oh wait, that's probably because he ran into the Lore bonus cap on Focus Items.

CMEast's character has the equivalent of Conviction 16 and Discipline 10 for the purposes of Summoning, which is pretty freaking scary. The only suggestion I would make is to change everything that says Summoning to say Diabolism instead. That way, you get mega huge bonuses to everything concerning demons: summoning, containing, and binding. Perhaps I would also suggest switching out some Complexity (Power for fast Thaumaturgy purposes) for Control, because the Control roll has to meet the shifts of Power anyway and having them be even makes it simpler. Also allows for more powerful Rotes.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 06:36:11 PM: I am not sure what you mean, could C+P with the changes you recommend?
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 06:48:59 PM: Quote from: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 06:36:11 PM
I am not sure what you mean, could C+P with the changes you recommend?

Huh? Now I'm the one who's not sure what you mean. You don't add Complexity and Power together. When you do fast Thaumaturgy using Sponsored Magic, you use Complexity to determine how much Power you need to summon up.

I would suggest switching some of those Complexity and Control Refinements to make the numbers more even. You could easily tweak those numbers to get the equivalent of Conviction 13 and Discipline 13 instead of 16 and 10.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: CMEast on July 21, 2010, 07:04:04 PM: Perhaps I misunderstood the rules for thaumaturgic rituals. I thought that the complexity only decided how powerful a ritual could be without additional preparation? From what I read, you're limited to your standard conviction for funnelling power into a ritual but, because it can be done over a number of exchanges, that doesn't usually matter. Which is why the discipline is at 10, so that even with a bad roll he could easily control the power and so that he can take advantage of sacrificing and sponsored magic to raise more power quickly.

With a conviction of 6, he can safely cast a ritual in 3 exchanges, he can cast it in 2 if he takes some mental stress when raising power. I think :)

Let me know if I've misunderstood the rules though please, it's easy to do as they are pretty complex.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 07:10:02 PM: Quote from: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 06:48:59 PM
Huh? Now I'm the one who's not sure what you mean. You don't add Complexity and Power together. When you do fast Thaumaturgy using Sponsored Magic, you use Complexity to determine how much Power you need to summon up.

I would suggest switching some of those Complexity and Control Refinements to make the numbers more even. You could easily tweak those numbers to get the equivalent of Conviction 13 and Discipline 13 instead of 16 and 10.

C+P= Copy and Paste :D
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 21, 2010, 07:29:58 PM: Quote from: CMEast on July 21, 2010, 07:04:04 PM
Perhaps I misunderstood the rules for thaumaturgic rituals. I thought that the complexity only decided how powerful a ritual could be without additional preparation? From what I read, you're limited to your standard conviction for funnelling power into a ritual but, because it can be done over a number of exchanges, that doesn't usually matter. Which is why the discipline is at 10, so that even with a bad roll he could easily control the power and so that he can take advantage of sacrificing and sponsored magic to raise more power quickly.

No, no you're completely right. I'm totally talking just about using Sponsored Magic to cast Thaumaturgy with Evocation's speed and methods. Doing so requires that you summon the power (using Complexity as the measure of the shifts needed) and control it all in one exchange. I was building for fast casting summonings because that's what I thought the original poster was after.

Hmm ... now that you mention it, the higher a base Complexity you have, the faster you can get to a ritual without needing to resort to fast casting. I guess it just comes down to how one wants to prioritize.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 09:56:00 PM: So what do I change to CMEast's thing?
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 22, 2010, 02:21:32 AM: Quote from: Tbora on July 21, 2010, 09:56:00 PM
So what do I change to CMEast's thing?

Umm ... I guess that depends. Does the build match what you want?

How does your GM interpret Thaumaturgy? Because even if someone's Complexity matches the desired effect, I can still see some people requiring at least a few minutes set up time before you can start rolling to cast the spell. If so, then the real benefit of your Sponsored Magic is going to be the ability to cast a ritual without a physical construct.

CMEast made a very good build for a ritualist. I'd still probably substitute Diabolism for all instances of Summoning, but besides that I probably wouldn't change anything if a good ritualist is what you want.

On the other hand, if you want to lean on your Faustian Bargain a bit more, I would swap a few of those Complexity and Control bonuses, to make it easier to call on ritual spells at evocation pace.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 22, 2010, 02:59:36 AM: Incidentally, an Extreme Consequence is stated to be insufficient to properly bind a summoned entity. YS 273 states that there are two methods to bind an entity to your will--a ritual with complexity sufficient to achieve a fully taken out result, and a cruder alternative to bludgeon it into submission with its True Name and a contest of wills. The former is stated to be more reliable, and it's not much harder than forcing an extreme consequence, but it does require 3-5 more shifts at least.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Tbora on July 22, 2010, 03:02:39 AM: A good ritualist is precisely what I want.

I don't really understand what you mean by switch summoning for diabolism, could you copy and paste East's build and change it for me, as I honestly dont understand what you mean.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 22, 2010, 03:18:26 AM: Quote from: GruffAndTumble on July 22, 2010, 02:59:36 AM
Incidentally, an Extreme Consequence is stated to be insufficient to properly bind a summoned entity. YS 273 states that there are two methods to bind an entity to your will--a ritual with complexity sufficient to achieve a fully taken out result, and a cruder alternative to bludgeon it into submission with its True Name and a contest of wills. The former is stated to be more reliable, and it's not much harder than forcing an extreme consequence, but it does require 3-5 more shifts at least.

This is true, but the lasting effect is represented by the Extreme Consequence, right? That's a permanent Aspect that lasts even after the Extreme Consequence resets (which is a long while anyway). So I basically use "Extreme Consequence" as handy code for the binding pact.
Title: Re: Character Creation Help
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 22, 2010, 03:25:57 AM: Quote from: Tbora on July 22, 2010, 03:02:39 AM
A good ritualist is precisely what I want.

I don't really understand what you mean by switch summoning for diabolism, could you copy and paste East's build and change it for me, as I honestly dont understand what you mean.

Basically just everywhere he mentions the Thaumaturgy Specialty Summoning (YS 272) just replace it with the Specialty Diabolism (YS 284) like so:

Quote
--18 Refresh--
[-3] Thaumaturgy
[-3] Sponsored Magic – Faustian Bargain & Hell-fire channelling
[-2] Lawbreaker (First Law) (+2 to casting roll for casting spells that will result in breaking the First Law)
[-5] Refinements (specialisation bonuses)
+1 Ward Control (Bonus for Thaumaturgy)
+2 Ward Complexity
+3 Diabolism Control
+4 Diabolism Complexity
[-4] Item of Power - Demonic Chain.

Demonic Chain
This item, granted due to a demonic bargain with a Lord of Hell, allows the wielder to summon demonic forces to his aid. It's a long, heavy chain that can be wielded like a whip or flail, covered in vicious barbs and engraved with demonic runes that hunger to taste blood. The weapons true strength, is in it's ability to create binds and wards. At a command, it can bind an opponent, causing him to writhe in pain as if he were wrapped in barbed wire. A second command can cause it to form a perfect, solid circle around the wielder; spinning and floating in mid-air as a barrier forms, or wrapping around the wielder as armour.
Weapon: 3, counts as Unholy, unbreakable
[+2] One-time discount
[-1] Blood Thirsty: When swung in keeping with it's purpose, it grants a +1 to wielders weapon skill.
[-1] The PC can summon the Demonic Chain to his hand with a thought
[-4] Refinements (additional focus item slots, on top of ) which are spent as:
[6 Focus Slots] Focus Item: +6 to Complexity (Diabolism), +2 to Control (Diabolism)

I suggest this because having the specialty in Diabolism allows the character the bonus for spells that have anything to do with demons (summoning, binding, attacking, divining, etc), which seems a bit more in character than a specialty in Summoning, which would give the bonus to all kinds of Summoning and not just demons.