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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Apocrypha on July 19, 2010, 11:38:57 PM

Title: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Apocrypha on July 19, 2010, 11:38:57 PM
With all the stories I've ever come across, whenever they mention Necromancers, they're usually the evil creepy guy raising the army of zombies and skeletons to conquer the world.

My question is, has there ever been a story (or what not) where necromancers were good?  Or at least not seen as evil?
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: matorade on July 19, 2010, 11:50:58 PM
With all the stories I've ever come across, whenever they mention Necromancers, they're usually the evil creepy guy raising the army of zombies and skeletons to conquer the world.

My question is, has there ever been a story (or what not) where necromancers were good?  Or at least not seen as evil?

Anita Blake's def one but I only read the first nine books and am not sure if her "good guy" stance changed afterward.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Starbeam on July 20, 2010, 12:32:50 AM
Ditto for Anita Blake, though the later books tend to be less about her ability to raise the dead.  The other that might possibly fall under good necromancer(I don't know cause I haven't read it, and can't ask my b/f as he's in the shower) is a series by Gail Z Martin, I believe the author is, and I don't know what the titles are.  Those are on my to-read list.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Apocrypha on July 20, 2010, 03:06:45 AM
(I don't know cause I haven't read it, and can't ask my b/f as he's in the shower)

Why aren't you in the shower with him then?
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: The Corvidian on July 20, 2010, 04:48:46 AM
There is one in Yasmine Galenorn's Demon Mistress. He is a secondary character, and he is more of a shaman.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: DominicJ on July 20, 2010, 07:20:52 AM
The First Von Carstein Vampire to rule a province of the empire did raise an army of zombies and skeletons to try and conquer the world (or empire at least) but he wasnt "evil" in any great sense.
He raised an army from his Human subjects as well as his zombie army, and didnt exterminate human populations he conquered.

There was also a short lived kingdom in which the king was in possession of the Crown of Nagash, and they just used zombies as slave labour in the fields.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: LizW65 on July 20, 2010, 01:23:48 PM
Terry Pratchett's Making Money plays with this; the wizards' university Department of Necromancy has re-named itself the Department of Postmortem Communications, since they're very genre-savvy and recognize that all necromancers are supposed to be evil.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on July 20, 2010, 04:53:03 PM
the anita blake series but after a while the story takes a sharp turn away from her powers as a necromancer and just focuses on her supernatural sex life, it gets rather boring after that.

Sabriel (i think thats how its spelled) has a good necromancer but she uses her skills to more to banish evil undead creatures and commune with the dead rather then raising them.

i don't remember the authors name but there is a series in which the main character is a necromancer of sorts, the tittles of the two that i have are the Summoner and Blood King, and their also pretty good.

i am also writing a book in which the main character is a Necromancer who uses his power to help people who are being haunted as well as other supernatural weirdness.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Starbeam on July 20, 2010, 04:57:11 PM

i don't remember the authors name but there is a series in which the main character is a necromancer of sorts, the tittles of the two that i have are the Summoner and Blood King, and their also pretty good.

This is the Gail Martin series I couldn't think of.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Thrythlind on July 21, 2010, 09:17:02 PM
most real world style occult interactions with the dead are benevolent and respectful, asking for advice and communing with ancestors mostly...in the Odyssey, it is not so much that the ghosts are dangerous in and of themselves but the fact that humans are innately fearful of mortality that makes Odysseus and his men nervous

in one of my game settings, necromancy itself is a neutral art and there are both good and evil undead (the terms would be ancestor and ghoul)....it is, however, considered rude in that setting to animate a dead body without permission...the connected spirit (if it hasn't crossed over completely) might be forgiving in extreme cases
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: daranthered on July 22, 2010, 06:06:17 AM


While the stereotype is there, I think there's room in necromancy for variations on the the theme.  Necromancy can ease spirits into the next world or raise hordes of raving zombies.  One of my favorite things about necromancy is its scope.  I've used a field of dead wheat, and reanimated chicken bones to get my character out of trouble.

I don't really think that the practice itself has to carry with it some negative connotation.  I would be more concerned with the underlying reason the magic is employed.  A horde of raving zombies that saves a village from evil invaders isn't just a good deed, it's also awesome.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Apocrypha on July 22, 2010, 12:08:58 PM
You guys are guys are great!

I was totally unaware of these examples but am glad that I wasn't the only one who was intending to use Necromancy as something other than evil.

Who says that army of zombies has to be bad.  Perhpas they're just misunderstood!  ;D

Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: belial.1980 on July 22, 2010, 01:34:23 PM

I don't really think that the practice itself has to carry with it some negative connotation.  I would be more concerned with the underlying reason the magic is employed.  A horde of raving zombies that saves a village from evil invaders isn't just a good deed, it's also awesome.

Even Aragorn led an army of the dead when the need came up.  :)
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on July 22, 2010, 05:37:39 PM
i think a lot of the negative comes from the fact that in a lot of settings Necromancers enslave the souls of the dead to fuel their spell craft, and that most mortals have a great deal of fear of death (something i personally have never really understood).

being a christian i don't like the idea of my necromancers meddling with someones soul, so i made my necromancers power come the darker energies of life. every action produces energy in my world, dark energy (where necromancy comes from) is created by death, sorrow, anger, pain, sickness, decay, aging, and a whole hose of other things. these things are part of life and force people to change, whether its for good or ill. a True Necromancer uses these natural energies to preserve the natural order of life and death.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Thrythlind on July 22, 2010, 06:44:11 PM
You guys are guys are great!

I was totally unaware of these examples but am glad that I wasn't the only one who was intending to use Necromancy as something other than evil.

Who says that army of zombies has to be bad.  Perhpas they're just misunderstood!  ;D



Heck, there's a lot of what you could consider to be technically necromancy involved in the Catholic faith...and no, I'm NOT talking about Jesus Christ...but think about the Saints...know how someone gets to be a Saint?

Live an exemplary life, or have an exemplary moment of redemption or revelation
Die - usually in the pursuit of holy ideals, or as a martyr at the hands of unbelievers
Perform three miracles...yes...after death

basically, if it can be documented that people have prayed to an individual on at least three different occasions and that something miraculous has occurred afterwards, then that person can be put for to be canonized as a Saint.

We basically appeal to ancestors in the hopes that they'll be more willing to intercede on our behalf than God, who would rather guide us and let us solve our own problems.

And then, once someone is a Saint, different cultures raised in the Catholic faith have their own bizarre list of rituals appealing to said dead people in an attempt to achieve some end...such as burying the statue of a particular saint in the yard, head downward and facing the street in order to have good luck in selling a house...
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Aakaakaak on July 22, 2010, 11:18:16 PM
The main character of the HBO show Carnivale. He took life from one and gave it to another. He killed a whole crop to bring someone back who'd just died. He'd usually take life from vegetation to give it to someone.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: daranthered on July 23, 2010, 01:34:37 AM


The Wikipedia entry for necromancy presents some interesting options.  Great thing about creative writing; Wikipedia is full of information that's true...enough
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: lt_murgen on July 23, 2010, 01:57:31 PM
Of course, you have shows like Medium and the Ghost Whisperer.  They give you the alternative of a person who communes with the dead to help them resolve issues from life.

You could make it a supernatural private investigator who raises the spirits to help him solve cases.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on July 23, 2010, 06:04:25 PM
nec·ro·man·cy  (nkr-mns)
n.
1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.

[Alteration of Middle English nigromancie, from Old French nigremancie, from Medieval Latin nigromantia, alteration (influenced by Latin niger, black) of Late Latin necromantia, from Greek nekromanteia : nekros, corpse; see nek-1 in Indo-European roots + manteia, divination; see -mancy.]

dictionary definition of necromancy
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: daranthered on July 25, 2010, 10:06:04 PM
While the definition of the word is a good start, I think its important to remember there is a wider anthropological scope to the idea of necromancy. 

In cognitive emergence, the realization that death is something that awaits us all is a pivotal concept in the path to sentience.  Which means its possible, even probable, that most ancient and small-scale societies will have some form of necromancy as a reaction to that realization, so that some form of control, real or imaginary, may be exerted over death.

Navajo religion has a great deal that deals with the cleansing of spirits from homes, using the Ghost Way. 

Greek myth has several stories where a hero journeys to Hades to bring someone back.

Chinese ancestor worship provide links between the living and the dead

Voodoo and Santeria both have heavy necromantic elements to them


If you look at any supernatural religion, you'll find some element of necromancy.  I would encourage anyone to look beyond the traditional Western concept, to say nothing of the D&D
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on July 26, 2010, 10:41:51 PM
While the definition of the word is a good start, I think its important to remember there is a wider anthropological scope to the idea of necromancy. 

In cognitive emergence, the realization that death is something that awaits us all is a pivotal concept in the path to sentience.  Which means its possible, even probable, that most ancient and small-scale societies will have some form of necromancy as a reaction to that realization, so that some form of control, real or imaginary, may be exerted over death.

Navajo religion has a great deal that deals with the cleansing of spirits from homes, using the Ghost Way. 

Greek myth has several stories where a hero journeys to Hades to bring someone back.

Chinese ancestor worship provide links between the living and the dead

Voodoo and Sanataria both have heavy necromantic elements to them


If you look at any supernatural religion, you'll find some element of necromancy.  I would encourage anyone to look beyond the traditional Western concept, to say nothing of the D&D


very true. the reason that i use primarily western thinking for my necromancer is because he is western which will influence what he believes. like in DF belief in what magic will due is the reason it works, spells and all that stuff are just ways to focus ones belief, which is why most magus are very different from each other.

by this logic if my character were to meet a voodoo practitioner they would have vastly different abilities than my character.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: MoSeS on July 27, 2010, 04:28:15 PM
voodoo practitioner?

I think you mean hoodoo practitioner.

Voodoo is a religion, Hoodoo is the practice of magic.

There are also different schools of Voodoo, similar to the way Christianity has denominations.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on July 27, 2010, 07:40:03 PM
i always mix up the two.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: daranthered on July 28, 2010, 01:28:11 AM


Vodou is a Hatian religion.  Voodoo is an offshoot of Vodou and Catholicism practiced in the Deep South of the United States.  Hoodoo refers to the specific ritualism aspect.

That's just what my Magic, Witchcraft and Religion notes say.  To be honest I don't know much about the area.

For my necromancy; I blended the Cult of Mithras with some Ancient Egyptian Funerary rites and set the whole thing in rural Russia
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on July 28, 2010, 06:55:24 PM
"i have held the bitter chill of death in the palm of my hand but its f#@%ing cold here"

couldn't resist.  ;D

something i have my necromancer say when he is in the realm of the winter court.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on August 04, 2010, 02:49:49 AM
i don't want this thread to die so i am bumping it.

so for those who do have necromancers (good or bad) what kind of abilities do you give them.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: daranthered on August 04, 2010, 11:24:26 PM
In my world magical abilities are inborn.

To access that ability, mental techniques are required to receive a certain result.  Sometimes this involves rituals, sometimes just a cleansing breath. 

A persons affinity with a particular kind of magic (in my world white, black, elemental, or necromantic) depends on which supernatural element they access first.  In my necromancers case, he brings his father back from death after a heart attack in a field of wheat.  As a result of bringing the father back, the wheat (and all the living things around them, are sucked of their life force.  Since he used his magical ability to deny death, he forever after has one foot in the world of the dead.

He has the power to animate anything that had been alive.  He can communicate spirits that haven't yet, or have no desire to, move on.  More importantly he can feed power to spirits and animated skeletons and they like, but always at a cost to something living.  The self aware the living creature he's trying to take power from, the harder it is.

There's a lot more, but this is the basics of necromancy in my story. 
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Mickey Finn on August 05, 2010, 01:28:32 PM
Necroscope series: http://www.amazon.com/Necroscope-Brian-Lumley/dp/0812521374

While the series has actual Necromancers that are different from Necroscopes in the methods used, from a high level categorization it's the same thing.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on August 05, 2010, 04:06:02 PM
Necroscope series: http://www.amazon.com/Necroscope-Brian-Lumley/dp/0812521374

While the series has actual Necromancers that are different from Necroscopes in the methods used, from a high level categorization it's the same thing.

wow that sounds awesome, will have to add it to the growing pile of books i need to read after i finish Changes.

Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Apocrypha on August 06, 2010, 10:50:48 PM
I am currently in the middle of "world building" and was thinking of putting a spin on things by having the necromancers (and their zombies) actually be the good guys for the change.

Thanks all again for the information as you've certainly helped.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on August 07, 2010, 03:19:29 AM
glad to be of help. i think necromancers make great hero's if done correctly.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: belial.1980 on August 07, 2010, 03:49:01 PM
I am currently in the middle of "world building" and was thinking of putting a spin on things by having the necromancers (and their zombies) actually be the good guys for the change.

Thanks all again for the information as you've certainly helped.

I like it. I think intention would probably play a big role too. A necromancer directing zombies to pull children out of a burning orphanage is a lot different than said necromancer directing zombies to terrorize a town.

A couple things you may want to consider: how will society meet necromancers? Are they common or does the average person have no idea they exist. will necromancers ever be met with prejudice? People might automatically assume they're evil (or good) based on their practices.

What kind of zombies will they raise? Are they the slow shambling kind like you see in a George Romero movie, or are they fast like the ones in 28 Days Later?
(click to show/hide)
Both/neither/depends?

Are they limited to humans? It might be cool for said necromancer to ride an undead mount. Maybe made of all bones. There's an interesting fairy tale witch I read about that rode a headless horse. The necromancer could raise all kinds of animals for useful purposes. Can they build their own undead chimera by mixing and matching body parts from dead animals? (Try a google search for the Tupilek, a creature from Native American folklore. Pretty cool, and might offer some inspiration.)

What about decomposition? Will the bodies degrade or will the magic halt decomposition? If not what steps could the necromancers take to keep their minions in one piece? Embalming? Mummification? Or will they just have to let them eventually rot and fall to pieces.

Do the undead minions retain any memories, skills, or personality from their former life? If the undead are just "things" then the person controlling them can direct them with impunity. But if they have some kind of will or memory that could make things more complicated. That could be really interesting and raise a lot of moral questions.

Just some food for thought. I'd meant to chime in earlier, since I thought this was an interesting thread but hadn't been visiting the boards as much lately. Good luck on your project!


Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Apocrypha on August 07, 2010, 05:38:21 PM
I like it. I think intention would probably play a big role too. A necromancer directing zombies to pull children out of a burning orphanage is a lot different than said necromancer directing zombies to terrorize a town.

A couple things you may want to consider: how will society meet necromancers? Are they common or does the average person have no idea they exist. will necromancers ever be met with prejudice? People might automatically assume they're evil (or good) based on their practices.

They will be an underground faction.  The religion and politics of the world have the populace of the world believing in them as evil and thought to be wiped out.  Used by parents to scare their kids at night.  Basically the Necromancers were thought to be wiped out during a previous war and as the victors write history the Necromancers got painted as evil.  They would start working in secret, at night, where they can hide their appearance easier then finally rise up from their underground and secret city (yes, I know, cliché) and form an army to free the people.

What kind of zombies will they raise?  Do the undead minions retain any memories, skills, or personality from their former life?  What about decomposition? Will the bodies degrade or will the magic halt decomposition?

They will basically be souls placed back into their own bodies which are held together and repaired by magic.  In a sense, think of the crew of the Black Pearl from the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie as a basis as each "zombie" will have their personality and memories intact, etc.  For the most part they are followers of a particular religion/philosophy/belief in this world.  One which the general public disagrees with.

But if they have some kind of will or memory that could make things more complicated. That could be really interesting and raise a lot of moral questions.

That will come into play actually.  As the necromancers have the ability to trap the souls of those who die (and who they kill) this will be dealt with in the world.  I would say more but then that is part of the concept and I don't want to give too much of the idea away.  But they would be able to "reanimate" their opponents if they wished.  They cannot reanimate just anything or anyone.  They can only reanimate something with a soul that they have captured.

Are they limited to humans? It might be cool for said necromancer to ride an undead mount. Maybe made of all bones. There's an interesting fairy tale witch I read about that rode a headless horse. The necromancer could raise all kinds of animals for useful purposes. Can they build their own undead chimera by mixing and matching body parts from dead animals? (Try a google search for the Tupilek, a creature from Native American folklore. Pretty cool, and might offer some inspiration.)

I hadn't really thought of that as of yet.  The only real sentient species on this world are humans who are broken into a bunch of different factions/beliefs/philosophies.  I guess the animation of animals and other critters/beasts would actually be a good idea and would certainly add bulk and flavour to their side and their atmosphere.  As for constructs, I'm not yet sure.  I will take a look at this Tupilek that you suggested.  But basically each faction has its own little "spin" to make them unique in that world.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: belial.1980 on August 07, 2010, 06:32:45 PM
That will come into play actually.  As the necromancers have the ability to trap the souls of those who die (and who they kill) this will be dealt with in the world.  I would say more but then that is part of the concept and I don't want to give too much of the idea away.  But they would be able to "reanimate" their opponents if they wished.  They cannot reanimate just anything or anyone.  They can only reanimate something with a soul that they have captured.

I hadn't really thought of that as of yet.  The only real sentient species on this world are humans who are broken into a bunch of different factions/beliefs/philosophies.  I guess the animation of animals and other critters/beasts would actually be a good idea and would certainly add bulk and flavour to their side and their atmosphere.  As for constructs, I'm not yet sure.  I will take a look at this Tupilek that you suggested.  But basically each faction has its own little "spin" to make them unique in that world.

So capturing souls is a requisite? Interesting. That definitely puts a spin on things. Are there willing subjects who pledge their souls to a necromancer after death? Do the souls have to be recently released from their corporeal state or can souls be coaxed back from the dead years later? Maybe do some research on ancestor worshipping practices from around the world. Or the Mexican Day of the Dead. That could give you some more brain food with regard to coexistence between the living and the dead. Overall I'd say you've got a lot of possibilities with your mythology.

If you did want to use animals/contructs, you could have it fit into your mythology by saying that every (or most) living creatures have a soul. A lot of cultures did believe that animals/plants had a spirit. It should fit into your concept if you wanted to use it.

EDIT: Just realized I used the term "brain food" in a post about zombies. No pun intended.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Apocrypha on August 08, 2010, 04:32:22 AM
So capturing souls is a requisite? Interesting. That definitely puts a spin on things. Are there willing subjects who pledge their souls to a necromancer after death?

Yes the followers of that faction are more than willing and are the ones who are mainly brought back and maintained.  Souls not captured go to the plane of existence of their patron diety.

Do the souls have to be recently released from their corporeal state or can souls be coaxed back from the dead years later?

If the soul was captured, yes.  If the soul went to the plain of existence of their patron deity then a definitive no.

If you did want to use animals/contructs, you could have it fit into your mythology by saying that every (or most) living creatures have a soul. A lot of cultures did believe that animals/plants had a spirit. It should fit into your concept if you wanted to use it.

I would agree that animals would and do have souls but it wasn't something I thought of in length regarding this universe.  Though as the animals cannot exactly worship a patron deity to claim their soul then I would imagine there could be a prospect there worth exploring.
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Nickeris86 on August 11, 2010, 05:33:26 PM
my own necromancer story is flopping like  dead fish in my head. i think i am going to right a sword a sorcery version first before i try the urban fantasy one. (not living in the city i want to base in it is becoming much more of a hindrance than i thought it was going to be.)
Title: Re: Necromancy and those that practice it
Post by: Marrik Broom on October 19, 2010, 03:17:54 AM
i don't want this thread to die so i am bumping it.

so for those who do have necromancers (good or bad) what kind of abilities do you give them.

Wel Marrik's someone I've tried setting up as one goingagainst hte dark and dreary stereotype, which is tough since the spells that are geared to working with taken energy rather than innate/elemental magic tends to have the skulls and shadow motif.

However as he has grown up a farmer one of the earliest bits of research he did netted a way to draw from weeds, insects, and even the body's own dying cells. Doesn't provide the raw power as a human (killed by your own hands is even more energy. Highest amount of power gained is from a willing sacrifice... on the idea that there's no resistance or struggle to take.)

Doesn't help the world's outlook on necromancy that his great grandfather tried becoming a god... and more or less broke the world in the process.

He's not an investigator or anything, though he does help local guards with cases. He sells stuff, researches when he can... he just keeps getting drawn into different problems and can't find a way out without being involved.