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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Papa Gruff on July 15, 2010, 01:15:08 PM
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I'd like to run something by you to see if I got it right. I thought about how to handle throwing people and how to do it. Here is what I figured out, let me know if you'd do it the same way.
So here is the situation: Big bad nasty Troll wants to pick up the vigilant hero and throw him a couple of zones into the next nice brick wall to make his head hurt a little ... well a lot actually.
First the Troll needs to get a grapple going. So he does an maneuver with fists to get hold of the hero and create the aspect GOTCHA. The hero rolls poorly on his defense so the aspect gets applied. On his next turn the Troll initiates the grapple but instead of doing the normal grapple attack he decides to throw the hero.
Lifting a normal person is an average difficulty. Lets say the troll has might at Fair (+2) and he gets +6 on lifting because he has supernatural strength. To use something as a throwing weapon your might has to be +6 better on the lifting table, than the difficulty of the object you'd like to throw is. As his combined lifting strength is +8, the Troll can throw the hero as a weapon no problem...
Now comes the tricky part: The hero sails through the air and hits the wall. He should at least be able to defend against the attack by the normal grapple rules. Perhaps he might even defend like against any other normal attack. But again the luck is not on his side and he crashes hard into the wall. What damage do we apply?
I'd decide on the wall being a Weapon: 4 and use normal rules on applying shifts. In the case the Troll decides to throw the hero off of his bridge then falling rules should apply, witch in most cases would be really really bad.
Have I gotten this right? I'm not sure if the damage is in paar. To spice it up we could let the wall defend against the throwing attack and distribute the damage between the hero and the wall (wall is Ledgendary +2 to break :) ). But I can't decide if that would be to much of a fuzz ...
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I would treat it as a might attack, modified by fists and opposed by athletics. I think the requirement for a might of +6 over the weight value of the target is exactly right, anything less and you couldn't throw them in any way that deal damage, though you might be able to drop them on to an environmental hazard with +4 might.
Speaking of which, check out YS325 for Environmental hazards. I'd follow that rule for weapon value and rule that a standard wall wouldn't have a weapon value unless you make a declaration for it to be a hazard ('hot pipes' and 'brick features' at Weapon:1, 'sharp metal features', 'broken pipes jutting out' at Weapon:2, 'large spikes' and 'hot coals' at Weapon:3 and things like 'spinning saw blades' and 'vats of hot chip fat/acid' at weapon:4.
Bear in mind athletics defends both by allowing the target to land safely and by making it hard to throw the target far.
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Speaking of which, check out YS325 for Environmental hazards. I'd follow that rule for weapon value and rule that a standard wall wouldn't have a weapon value unless you make a declaration for it to be a hazard ('hot pipes' and 'brick features' at Weapon:1, 'sharp metal features', 'broken pipes jutting out' at Weapon:2, 'large spikes' and 'hot coals' at Weapon:3 and things like 'spinning saw blades' and 'vats of hot chip fat/acid' at weapon:4.
Bear in mind athletics defends both by allowing the target to land safely and by making it hard to throw the target far.
I thought more in line of "Impact damage" YW 326 2. column:
Impact Damage
At some point, you may want to have one char-
acter try to hit another character with a car or
other speeding object. This can be considered an
attack using Weapon:5(!) for the car. Generally,
most massive objects like that should be about
Weapon:4 or Weapon:5, like explosives—only
the hardiest of supernatural creatures should be
able to shrug them off.
As the wall absolutely represents a massive object it seams to apply. I might be convinced that it is not appropriate though, because technically the wall isn't thrown, it gets pelted with... hm ...
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I might run it slightly different.
Id do: a Might roll to initiate grapple, check the might chart to see if you can lift/throw the grappled guy, then a weapons roll (thrown weapons are under weapons), to throw him.
Now lets say our guy rolled a 6 on his "throw" attack. Id treat it as if the wall was making a 6 Strength attack on the grappler at weapon: 5 (Weapon: 1 for being a brick wall, and 4 more for supernatural strength).
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Id do: a Might roll to initiate grapple, check the might chart to see if you can lift/throw the grappled guy, then a weapons roll (thrown weapons are under weapons), to throw him.
Oh yes yes yes... you are right. There should be a weapons check to throw the "weapon" aka hero onto the "opponent" aka wall. Now: does that mean that the Troll has to wait an other exchange until he can throw his "weapon" after he initiated the grapple, or does the weapons/throwing action count as the attack part of the grapple?
Now lets say our guy rolled a 6 on his "throw" attack. Id treat it as if the wall was making a 6 Strength attack on the grappler at weapon: 5 (Weapon: 1 for being a brick wall, and 4 more for supernatural strength).
That makes sense to me too. Good job Kid'o'Koffey! I would phrase it as the Troll doing the 6 Strength attack at weapons: 5 though, because walls technically can't attack ;).
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Well impact damage is more referring to cars and trains hitting people. You can't really 'land' on a speed car, nor do you have any affect on it before hitting you. Being thrown is different. Especially as impact damage will be a roll on a skill like driving which generally isn't high, compared to a might skill which is often boosted by powers and stunts.
Sure, I can see the hulking PC picking up his target and sending it speeding towards the closest wall. With a low defense roll and a might of 8 that is a LOT of damage. On the other hand, I can see an agile target struggling out of his grasp, grabbing on to the throwers arms to slow himself and gain control, rolling as he hits the floor or catching himself as he lands.
Giving any wall or floor an automatic weapon value, especially weapon:4 (grenade level), just seems over-kill. Would a wall with a fire beneath it be weapon:8?
I can see where you get it, hitting a wall at 100mph is probably just as painful as being hit by a car at 100mph, I think it's gonna take a lot of might to throw someone that fast and that much might is gonna cause a LOT of damage without needing a weapon value on top. At the end of the day, I think throwing someone is just very different from hitting them with a car and so I don't think impact damage quite works.
Oh, one thing though. I didn't think about what zone they would end up in. Would you say it's fair that they take full damage if they stay in the same zone and then take progressively less damage for each zone further that they are thrown (as momentum is lost).
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Hmm, KIDKOFFEY suggests a good way to justify weapon damage for the wall. Using weapons to deal the throw damage rather than might to deal the throw damage means that giving the wall a weapon damage modifier is still fair.
Also, if it's anything like a normal grapple, you need to initiate the grapple on the first exchange before you can do something with the grapple on the second exchange.
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Well impact damage is more referring to cars and trains hitting people. You can't really 'land' on a speed car, nor do you have any affect on it before hitting you. Being thrown is different. Especially as impact damage will be a roll on a skill like driving which generally isn't high, compared to a might skill which is often boosted by powers and stunts.
Sure, I can see the hulking PC picking up his target and sending it speeding towards the closest wall. With a low defense roll and a might of 8 that is a LOT of damage. On the other hand, I can see an agile target struggling out of his grasp, grabbing on to the throwers arms to slow himself and gain control, rolling as he hits the floor or catching himself as he lands.
Giving any wall or floor an automatic weapon value, especially weapon:4 (grenade level), just seems over-kill. Would a wall with a fire beneath it be weapon:8?
I can see where you get it, hitting a wall at 100mph is probably just as painful as being hit by a car at 100mph, I think it's gonna take a lot of might to throw someone that fast and that much might is gonna cause a LOT of damage without needing a weapon value on top. At the end of the day, I think throwing someone is just very different from hitting them with a car and so I don't think impact damage quite works.
Oh, one thing though. I didn't think about what zone they would end up in. Would you say it's fair that they take full damage if they stay in the same zone and then take progressively less damage for each zone further that they are thrown (as momentum is lost).
Very valid points. By now I changed my opinion. Impact damage isn't the way to go, but treating it as a hazard isn't proper either. Now throwing someone into a hazard is an other story. A wall ain't a huge hazard. I like Koffeykids idea best so far.
Concerning the zones I think that normal throwing rules should apply, meaning that the wall has to be at least in an neighboring zone. If you try to throw further, then there should be no damage. The question is could you throw our hero further then a zone? I think probably not...
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Hmm, KIDKOFFEY suggests a good way to justify weapon damage for the wall. Using weapons to deal the throw damage rather than might to deal the throw damage means that giving the wall a weapon damage modifier is still fair.
Also, if it's anything like a normal grapple, you need to initiate the grapple on the first exchange before you can do something with the grapple on the second exchange.
Isn't technically the maneuver the initiation of the grapple? Am confused now. Got to read up...
Never mind ... it ain't. All that's needed is a tagable aspect. As I understand the rules the Troll would get his attack throwing action right away though, as the grapple seams to be a supplement action?
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The Grapple is a block action, you do have to roll Might to initiate it. That's a normal action.
Then the target, on it's next action, get's to try to act and maybe break the grapple.
Now it's your turn again, you can either maintain the grapple, with all the possibilities that gives you (damage, maneuvers etc.)
or you can chose to release the grapple and make a full attack, which would include the possibility of throwing the target.
See YS 211:
Finally, you can also release the grapple if
you want to roll a standard action instead, like
making a full attack, performing a maneuver, or
throwing the opponent (basically forced move-
ment, to a maximum of one zone). The target
gets a defense roll, as usual.
So 1 Action to "grab and hold" + 1 Action to "throw at wall"
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Basically a grapple is a block and, as such, it's a full action. Once the grapple is established, in subsequent scenes you can perform attacks, manoeuvres or movement as a supplemental action, losing a shift from your block to perform a 1 shift action.
Thinking about it though, I can imagine a throw simply being a powerful hit that launches an opponent in to a wall i.e. can be done as an attack without grappling first. After all, if you were to throw a car at someone you wouldn't spend a turn grappling it first.
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Basically a grapple is a block and, as such, it's a full action. Once the grapple is established, in subsequent scenes you can perform attacks, manoeuvres or movement as a supplemental action, losing a shift from your block to perform a 1 shift action.
Thinking about it though, I can imagine a throw simply being a powerful hit that launches an opponent in to a wall i.e. can be done as an attack without grappling first. After all, if you were to throw a car at someone you wouldn't spend a turn grappling it first.
AH... good idea! That might be the easiest solution. We could just treat it as a normal attack and let it all get handled by narration. The problem I see with this is, that it does more then a normal attack is supposed to do. It is capable of hurling somebody into an other zone, where he/she/it might be facing other problems.
An other point is, that a car usually doesn't struggle against being picked up and thrown onto something. A person will probably do that. I think the rules for grapples state that a grapple has to be in place before you can move a person around against his/her will. I might be misinterpreting it, but it somehow feels right to go with grapple here. A potentially very strong attack like this one should be tricky to pull of and the victim of it should be able to try and stop it. The grapple allows for that.
@Tsunami: Thanks for the clarification buddy.
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Basically a grapple is a block and, as such, it's a full action. Once the grapple is established, in subsequent scenes you can perform attacks, manoeuvres or movement as a supplemental action, losing a shift from your block to perform a 1 shift action.
Thinking about it though, I can imagine a throw simply being a powerful hit that launches an opponent in to a wall i.e. can be done as an attack without grappling first. After all, if you were to throw a car at someone you wouldn't spend a turn grappling it first.
Yeah, but the car is also not very likely to struggle against you picking it up. Aside from being really heavy that is...
You can of course describe an attack as picking someone up and throwing him into a wall, but that would not allow you to move him to another zone, or add any damage boni other than those gotten from strength powers to the attack.
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AH... good idea! That might be the easiest solution. We could just treat it as a normal attack and let it all get handled by narration. The problem I see with this is, that it does more then a normal attack is supposed to do. It is capable of hurling somebody into an other zone, where he/she/it might be facing other problems.
An other point is, that a car usually doesn't struggle against being picked up and thrown onto something. A person will probably do that. I think the rules for grapples state that a grapple has to be in place before you can move a person around against his/her will. I might be misinterpreting it, but it somehow feels right to go with grapple here. A potentially very strong attack like this one should be tricky to pull of and the victim of it should be able to try and stop it. The grapple allows for that.
Well... it seems that sometimes we do agree on stuff... *g*
@Tsunami: Thanks for the clarification buddy.
Any time :-)
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Well... it seems that sometimes we do agree on stuff...
I'd say we usually do, but neither of us is listening properly to what the other is trying to communicate.
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For objects (like say a car) I'd say its a supplemental action to pick it up, and then you can throw using weapons, as long as your might is high enough to pick it up (dont roll might, just use the ranks in the skill + modifiers from stunts/powers).
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I will try to talk of skill uses by referring to the trapping. This assumes no stunts to move trappings were taken, but I do highlight one case (moving Distance Weaponry to Might) because anytime the "modifying/aiding/restricting" skill for a situation had a trapping moved to it, the modifying/aiding/restricting skill makes no difference (it is neither higher nor lower).
Actually, this brings up an interesting question. Do Skills modify, or do Trappings modify? If Distance Weaponry were modified by Lifting Things, then strength powers (and Hulking Size) make it easier. Well the Strength powers specifically say they give +1/2/3 for grapple and for skills where Might would aid (such as throwing a person).
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Well I think throwing people should be a (default) Weapon:0. It is effectively deciding on your turn to stop grappling and throw the guy. So you are no longer doing a block (no reason to suffer a -1)
But you roll Distance Weaponry vs the target's Dodging or Wrestling trapping (so default Athletics or Might). On success (tie) the target is thrown up to one zone. Any excess effect is physical stress (as usual).
If you throw one target at another, they can try to dodge the same Distance Weaponry check you made to throw the "projectile."
If the thrower has a stunt or power that would increase the damage, it would apply (such as Inhuman Strength for +2). But it would also give the normal power's bonus +1/2/3.
It seems the most consistent with the rules. It has an attack trapping, a defense trapping, and comparable damage to Fists. And the opportunity cost of having to grapple a target first makes up for the chance to later hit two guys with one action. Although I can see an argument for throwing at another target a "Spray attack" (against the throwee and the target). Perhaps that is reason enough to bring the -1 supplemental action penalty that is normally apart of a grapple back in.
As an alternative, I allow a player to forgo damage to instead try to do a maneuver (at -1 since you are moving a foe upto one zone and doing a maneuver). But this maneuver could be an attempt to apply it to two targets (the projectile and whoever/whatever you hit). If a player can justify it, I might allow them to hit more than one target with the "projectile.
I can definitely seen situations where scene aspects can arise. Such as throwing someone into a bank of free standing flood lights to create darkness. Or throwing a vampire through the curtained window (during the day) to add "Sunshine" to a zone in the scene. In this case they need to at least tie the projectile on the Distance Weaponry check and get at least a Good result to make an aspect (higher result is more sticky as per usual). I am wondering how to use up "Sunshine" (perhaps in that case it is removing an aspect of "Curtained Window" instead of adding "Sunshine").
However, since Strength Powers give a flat bonus to Might for grappling, I don't think it stacks with Wrestler (which is good for Pure Mortals).
Wait, isn't "throwing someone" just a maneuver that compels them to move next turn? Sort of like the example of a spell that shunts aside enemies to make an escape path does an aspect?
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"Quod est?"
Sorry @ JosephKell can't make sense of what you wrote...
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I'd say we usually do, but neither of us is listening properly to what the other is trying to communicate.
Yeah, you do...^^
I like CMEasts solution, too, but what happens if you throw an opponent into or onto something harmful? Does that deal any form of additional damage, like a weapon?
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Yeah, you do...^^
I like CMEasts solution, too, but what happens if you throw an opponent into or onto something harmful? Does that deal any form of additional damage, like a weapon?
I guess the above mentioned rules for hazardous environments apply in this case and damage gets dealt that is in line with these rules.
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Once more without internal monologue.
First, throwing someone needs to be consistent with Fists (and the rest of the game), so it should default to Weapon:0. If a thrower has a Strength power or a stunt (specific to throwing someone?) then it would increase it as per usual. Claws wouldn't factor in. Basically, effect translates into damage.
The act of throwing would require a grapple to be already initiated, and the thrower would roll Distance Weaponry (normally a trapping of Weapons) modified by Grappling (normally a trapping of Might, remember the supernatural strength powers can upgrade this by +1/2/3). Opposed by the "projectile's" Dodging or Grappling score (normally trappings of Athletics and Might respectively). Since throwing someone ends the grapple, this isn't a supplemental action to the block, therefore there isn't a -1 penalty to the roll.
If the goal is to throw one person into another, you roll once and compare it to both targets (designated "projectile" and "target"). If you fail against the projectile, the whole attempt fails. The physical stress each takes is determined by your roll verses their roll. So it is possible to deal 0 physical stress to the projectile while still doing 3 physical stress to the target. The target can defend with Dodging or Grappling (in this case grappling is "catching" the projectile in such a way that the target doesn't get hurt irregardless of the projectile's well being).
For example. Rocko, the Trollblooded Changeling, currently has Jimmy in an arm lock. Lester, Rocko's boss, tells him to get rid of Jimmy in the dumpster as a warning.
Rocko has Inhuman Strength and a Superb Might, and a Good Weapons. Rocko's throwing people would start at Great (Good Weapons + modified by Might, Inhuman Strength makes it a +1 regardless of Might Score).
Jimmy, being a low level drug peddler, has Average Athletics and Mediocre Might. So he'll try to resist with Athletics.
Rocko rolls a +1 for a Superb "throw" while Jimmy just gets a Great (+3 on 4dF isn't bad, but Rocko is just so good it doesn't matter) and flings poor Jimmy into the dumpster and Jimmy also suffers a 3 physical stress hit (Superb - Great + 2 Inhuman Strength). Jimmy blacks out hearing Lester say, "And let that be a lesson."
Jimmy wakes to a bad of garbage exploding open on him, covering him with cold, discarded Chinese food from the restaurant next door.
If Rocko had Supernatural Strength instead of Inhuman Strength, the power would give a +2 bonus to Distance Weaponry instead of +1 (see Superlative Strength). Mythic Strength would give +3 (see Supreme Strength).
Even if a stunt were taken to move Distance Weaponry to Might, I would still allow Superior/Superlative/Supreme Strength to apply as it would've applied if the trapping weren't moved.
This does create a potential problem of giving a +1/2/3 to the roll and +2/4/6 to damage. So perhaps the throwing damage should be dropped.
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Yupp, thats basically where the discussion was leading.
I do agree on everything, except two things.
1.
I would not make throwing someone an attack using the Weapons skill.
Throwing people is an integral part of lots of Martial Arts, especially weaponless ones, so Fists would be the better choice here i think.
Actually using a Person as a Weapon to throw at someone else... that might be a Weapons application, but i think it's such a rare occurrence that it doesn't hurt to allow it to be done with Fists.
2.
There is no explicit distance weaponry bonus through strength Powers.
Superior/Superlative/Supreme Strength modify how might would factor in when it modifies a skill, but there is no mention of Distance weaponry in particular.
So the +2/+4/+6 damage bonus from Strength Powers would be all you get, and thats perfectly in line with other Attacks, so no balance problem here.
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Yupp, thats basically where the discussion was leading.
I do agree on everything, except two things.
1.
I would not make throwing someone an attack using the Weapons skill.
Throwing people is an integral part of lots of Martial Arts, especially weaponless ones, so Fists would be the better choice here i think.
Actually using a Person as a Weapon to throw at someone else... that might be a Weapons application, but i think it's such a rare occurrence that it doesn't hurt to allow it to be done with Fists.
Fists doesn't represent martial arts. It represents unarmed strikes (Brawling) and unarmed blocks (Close Combat Defense). Grappling represents holds (a block) and traditional throws. Martial art throws are more about control than sending someone flying across a room.
In fact, I wouldn't consider a traditional throw to be ending the grapple. It would be applying an aspect while continuing to grapple.
The fact is that nowhere does the book spell out which trapping covers the case of "throwing a target across zones." Grappling definitely relates to dragging them across a zone.
The closest trappings for this case are Grappling and "throwing stuff" (which in DFrpg is the Distance Weaponry trapping).
This is why I keep trying to speak in terms of trappings, it is so that the example holds irregardless of stunts/powers.2.
There is no explicit distance weaponry bonus through strength Powers.
Superior/Superlative/Supreme Strength modify how might would factor in when it modifies a skill, but there is no mention of Distance weaponry in particular.
So the +2/+4/+6 damage bonus from Strength Powers would be all you get, and thats perfectly in line with other Attacks, so no balance problem here.
The game doesn't state what does or doesn't count as modifying. It comes down to consensus.
For example: If a group of pure mortals were all in a basement room that was suddenly plunged into darkness, I would say that their attacks (and defense rolls, maybe I would allow players to substitute Stealth for the restriction of defense rolls, but that might require "full defense") are all restricted by their Passive Awareness (a trapping of Alertness). An exception would be grappling. The attacker would be restricted on their first check, the defender would likewise, but once a grapple is established, both parties have a good idea where the other is and the restriction as it relates to each other goes away.
No where in the book does it say Alertness should restrict anything in a situation of darkness. That is just a connection I made.
In this case, the things to consider are Lifting Things and Grappling.
Does "Lifting Things" factor in for throwing someone? Yes, but I would say it is a "restriction" factor. Being able to easily lift a 250 pound bag of whatever onto your shoulder probably means your ability to lift won't hurt you when trying to chuck a 200 pound drunk out of a bar. But it probably doesn't make you better (that is what "restricts" means, see YS 214).
But Grappling definitely would modify the situation. A bad grappler is going to have trouble controlling a person long enough to throw them, but being good at grappling would help. So it can help or hinder. So I am saying "Grappling modifies throwing someone across a room in the case that Grappling isn't the trapping to use in the first place."
Which means...
a. If you would use Grappling then Bruising/Bludgeoning/Unstoppable Strength gives in for the +1/2/3.
b. Or if you would use Distance Weaponry (modified by Might) then Might modifies and Superior/Superlative/Supreme Strength gives a +1/2/3.
Both give +1/2/3. And THAT is the balance concern starts to arise. Getting a +1/2/3 on the roll and +2/4/6 bonus effect (assuming success) is like getting +3/6/9 (when successful).
But there are balancing factors: 1. You need an appropriate aspect on the target to start the grapple (which might mean placing a maneuver, which takes an exchange action). 2. You use one exchange (of no damage) to start the grapple. 3. You can finally throw (assuming they don't escape before this point). So being able to throw one person at another and get an effective 3/6/9 isn't so bad since you use a minimum of 2 exchange actions (at most 3) to do damage twice.
There is no question that Might (grappling) is involved with someone's ability to throw another person. Either directly (by being the skill trapping) or indirectly (by modifying).
Basically this comes down to personal taste. Grappling or Throwing Stuff (distance weaponry).
When you are talking about using someone as an over-sized javelin, it seems to fall into Distance Weaponry (call it "Distance Throwing" or "Distance Hurling" if you like) than the more conventional Judo throws. That is why I lean towards Distance Weaponry.
But I do reiterate that it is a personal choice.
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I am inclined to strongly disagree that a thrown person should be a weapon 0. If I am strong enough to chuck somebody a full zone (IE across four lanes of traffic, for example), whoever gets hit by that is going to take some damage from the inherent weight of the chuckee.
If I can throw a car at somebody and give the car a weapon rating greater than zero, i should be able to throw steve and give him a weapon rating greater than zero.