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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Barodahn on July 14, 2010, 01:58:10 AM

Title: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Barodahn on July 14, 2010, 01:58:10 AM
So I am working on a really long lived character... been around for ages and ages...and seems to me that someone thousands of years old should have some extra skill points...

What would people think is a fair number of skill points to get for -1 refresh and stay balanced?  5? 10? I am not familiar enough with the game balance to really work it out...

Edit:  I meant specifically as a power, not as a stunt, maybe as an option for recovery powers.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: luminos on July 14, 2010, 01:59:54 AM
Balanced is giving +2 to a specific trapping of a skill.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 14, 2010, 02:17:23 AM
As a Power? I'd say giving a flat +2 to a particular skill or a Skill Substitution for an entire skill sounds about right. The second is more like what you want, it could result in something like this:

Wide Experience [-1]:

You have extensive experience, and by extensive we mean not hundreds, but likely thousands of years. Due to this extensive experience, you may use your Scholarship instead of another skill for all uses of said skill. This power may only be taken for intellectual skills, or ones that can be learned purely intellectually, physical abilities require constant practice. You may take this Power multiple times, but no more than your Scholarship rating.



Then take it the maximum of 5 times for Discipline, Lore, Empathy, Deceit, and Survival (or something like that). Combined with a Superb Scholarship, this'll make you a fairly badass character. The only other skills needed by your typical immortal are Weapons, Athletics, and Resources (though Endurance, Presence, and Conviction all seem reasonable to have at Good).
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: JustinS on July 14, 2010, 04:13:52 AM
Or just keep a lot of refresh unspent, and invoke your 'old and experienced' aspect or 'this is jut like the time I...' aspect frequently.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: JosephKell on July 14, 2010, 04:28:53 AM
The problem with this is that skill points "stack."  While stunts and most powers don't.

For instance, would you rather have a stunt that gives +1 to attacks with shotguns or a guns skill that is 1 rank higher?  Obviously the latter.

Instead I would just say that every time the PCs are awarded an additional refresh, up their total skill points to the appropriate level of their new refresh.  If there were (say) 2 milestones for bonus skill points (but no bonus refresh), then give 3 more skill points with the refresh point.

6 refresh: 20 skill points
7 refresh: 25 skill points
8 refresh: 30 skill points
(9 refresh: 32 skill points?)
10 refresh: 35 skill points

After that... I am not sure how skill points should relate to refresh.  Maybe 3 skill points per refresh?

It is hard to say what is a better model for character power, skill points or refresh.  The worst thing that can happen is the PCs getting "refresh" heavy without the skills to back it up.  Otherwise they may face more powerful opposition than they can handle.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: ahunting on July 14, 2010, 08:47:28 AM
There are a couple points to address in the skill to refresh question.
1. Skill Cap
2. Skill Pyramid/Column mechanics
3. Skill Advancement, (See Significant and major mile stones YS 89.)
4. Possible Refresh to skill costs.

Skill cap, handing out skill for refresh can be kept manageable assuming you do not allow such skill point to break the cap (IE no skill above X level).

The danger of doing this is of course, the primary mechanic from preventing a PC from climb to the next level real quickly is the mechanics of the Pyramid/Column. So if you let PCs buy additional skill and then raise the skill cap those characters that have bought skill can jump ahead much more rapidly then those who have not.

Skill advancement should be more rapid then refresh (Duh). There are two types of milestones that give out skill advancement, and Significant milestones and major milestones, significant should be more common then Majors Milestones.

So now value of refresh to skill (Yeah i know you didn't need all that sill background). We had discussed a couple concepts on it, we have never implemented them mainly b/c it didn't seem necessary. The first is a static value, we took a guess at 2, but that probably a little conservative. Another one purposed was based upon total stunt numbers, 1 point per 2 stunts, was purposed, if memory serves. (which translate to something as high as 5 skill points for 1 point of refresh) admittedly most folks don't go that heavy into stunts but it was for pure mortal concept. Again we never actually implemented that just looked at it. I'd probably pick a value put it into play and see what effect it has, and change it from there, if I was determined to do it. 
 
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Drachasor on July 14, 2010, 09:25:57 AM
Or just keep a lot of refresh unspent, and invoke your 'old and experienced' aspect or 'this is jut like the time I...' aspect frequently.

That's one good idea.

Hmm, how much do you guys think a power would cost that adds +2 to a skill check of your choice once per scene?  (I think something in this form with an aspect would be ideal).
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: CMEast on July 14, 2010, 09:31:49 AM
How about something like this:
[-4] I've done it all. Twice.
All skills start at average. The skill cap is one higher for your refresh level.

This way the skill pyramid is still there and it can't be abused or ignored and yet it shows that, with 1000's of years of experience, the PC has tried almost everything at some point or another. It also shows that they can get amazingly good at something with all of that time.

I called it -4 because it could be taken twice at most (as a submerged character) and it is a fairly large chunk of refresh, but it still leaves some refresh for stunts.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: TheMouse on July 14, 2010, 02:23:47 PM
Or just keep a lot of refresh unspent, and invoke your 'old and experienced' aspect or 'this is jut like the time I...' aspect frequently.

This seems like the path of lease resistance to me. There's no concern with needing to worry about the balance of just another Aspect.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Kordeth on July 14, 2010, 08:18:39 PM
You could also take a variant on True Shapeshifting and describe it as "accessing muscle memory" for your physical skills. You know, something like "400 years ago I served with a Swiss mercenary troupe, and I still know a thing or two about pike-fighting," and suddenly you bump Weapons up at the cost of some other skill. I'd maybe kock a -1 off the Refresh since you aren't also getting the ability to actually change shape.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Barodahn on July 15, 2010, 07:29:46 PM
Hm... what do you all think about some kind of Modular Skills based on Modular Abilities? You select a pool of skills and can change them? With some kind of surcharge?
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 15, 2010, 07:36:19 PM
Well...there's already True Shapeshifting, which basically does that for Physical Skills. I'd say it'd be -3 sans the physical Shapeshifting (and thus the +4 on disguise)...so something like that might be valid for mental or Social skills, too. Maybe even for a slight discount...

If I as going to do truly Modular Skills ala True Shapeshifting for all skils, I'd probably call it a -7 Refresh Ability, and still not let it raise Contacts or Resources above the basic pyramid's ratings. But I don't think that would accurately reflect what you're looking for, I mean, why would your character suddenly have, say, lower Discipline just because he's using Deceit? It doesn't make sense in the context you're using.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Barodahn on July 15, 2010, 09:07:27 PM
There is definitely that problem, i just felt like an elegant solution in a way.  I like DMW's idea of  Wide Experience, and makes sense in a way since someone that long lived SHOULD have high scholarship, just that at -1 you would essentially be getting a skill for free at superb (or whatever level you have scholarship at), that seems to be a bit much...

CMEast's idea is also really interesting....It gives you a broader base, and that one really high skill, but seems to mess up the idea of the skill pyramid a bit, and makes point costs to buy skills odd...

Can anyone think of someway to mix the two that i am missing?

Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 15, 2010, 09:17:56 PM
There is definitely that problem, i just felt like an elegant solution in a way.  I like DMW's idea of  Wide Experience, and makes sense in a way since someone that long lived SHOULD have high scholarship, just that at -1 you would essentially be getting a skill for free at superb (or whatever level you have scholarship at), that seems to be a bit much...

Well, it's a Power. They're supposed to be better than Stunts (which can give an entire Trapping, or even two). Also, check out Mimic, it actually grants addirional skills (though only at a rating equal to the guy you Mimic).

CMEast's idea is also really interesting....It gives you a broader base, and that one really high skill, but seems to mess up the idea of the skill pyramid a bit, and makes point costs to buy skills odd...

Yeah, it's a neat idea, but wonky in practice.

Can anyone think of someway to mix the two that i am missing?

I'm biased, but I think I stuck in enough limitations that Wide Experience is actually fairly balanced all on it's own.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Ala Alba on July 15, 2010, 10:07:17 PM
CMEast's idea is also really interesting....It gives you a broader base, and that one really high skill, but seems to mess up the idea of the skill pyramid a bit, and makes point costs to buy skills odd...

Why? All it is, is a flat +1 to EVERY skill.

Far, far too powerful.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Kordeth on July 15, 2010, 10:25:00 PM
Well...there's already True Shapeshifting, which basically does that for Physical Skills. I'd say it'd be -3 sans the physical Shapeshifting (and thus the +4 on disguise)...so something like that might be valid for mental or Social skills, too. Maybe even for a slight discount...

If I as going to do truly Modular Skills ala True Shapeshifting for all skils, I'd probably call it a -7 Refresh Ability, and still not let it raise Contacts or Resources above the basic pyramid's ratings. But I don't think that would accurately reflect what you're looking for, I mean, why would your character suddenly have, say, lower Discipline just because he's using Deceit? It doesn't make sense in the context you're using.

I'd just describe it as a dramatic shift in focus/only so much knowledge being able to "fit" in your active awareness at once. I'd probably also expand the list of skills you can't alter to include the stress track skills, just to reduce the headaches.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Barodahn on July 15, 2010, 11:02:21 PM
So rather than starting a new thread... though i would throw some more idea's out there of costs for various powers...? And how the powers might work.

*Skill Genius* (can't come up with a good name right now)
-1
You may have this skill at one rank higher than the maximum for your submersion level. You must pay the normal cost (alternatively, to make it more expensive to use this, make it pay 1.5 cost for that level?).  This is only applicable for mental or physical skills that do not effect stress tracks, nor things such as resources or contacts.  (this one actually not thinking of for this character anymore, just curious about what people think about it mechanically)

Also trying to work out a power as a supplement to speed powers.
Athletic Prowess, (or maybe Fast Hands?)
-1 power option on Inhuman/Supernatural/Mythic Speed
If your athletics score is higher than an opponents in a direct confrontation, gave +2 when attacking to your fists or weapons skill due to being able to get the hits in before they can react.

How do these look as idea's?
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: luminos on July 16, 2010, 12:12:48 AM
I don't see any flaw with Skill Genius, but I could be overlooking some of its implications

Athletic Prowess is too powerful.  The most a stunt can add for a to hit roll is +1 under limited circumstances, and this stunt adds +2 to dodging and to hit rolls.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Barodahn on July 16, 2010, 12:13:46 AM
Oops. missed a couple things i meant to say in there. I went back and edited it.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 16, 2010, 12:32:02 AM
Skill Genius seems under powered, since I'm fairly sure a -1 Power can just add +1 directly to a skill.

Athletic Prowess should either be only +1 or restricted to Fists, but looks good aside from that...it would be a bit overpowered for a Stunt, but it's a Power.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: ahunting on July 16, 2010, 01:21:00 AM
Also trying to work out a power as a supplement to speed powers.
Athletic Prowess, (or maybe Fast Hands?)
-1 power option on Inhuman/Supernatural/Mythic Speed
If your athletics score is higher than an opponents in a direct confrontation, gave +2 when attacking to your fists or weapons skill due to being able to get the hits in before they can react.

How do these look as idea's?

+2 to attack for -1 power is to strong.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Barodahn on July 16, 2010, 02:10:56 AM
+2 to attack for -1 power is to strong.

Even with the conditional? If they have a higher athletics than you, you don't get the bonus?
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: luminos on July 16, 2010, 02:29:53 AM
+1 to an attack with a condition is balanced.  +2 to an attack is unbalanced unless the condition is extraordinarily rare. (for -1 powers).

Look at the berserker stunt.  That does give +2 to attacks, but it requires that you use the stunt for the rest of the conflict, and gives you -2 on all defense rolls.  Use that as a guideline for how to balance a +2 to attacks.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Barodahn on July 16, 2010, 02:35:35 AM
so +2 stress when an attack connects is less "valuable" (can't think of better word) than a +2 to attack?

Sorry if i seem to be belaboring the point, i haven't had a chance to play the game yet, just read through it so trying to get a good sense of the game in my head is hard.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: luminos on July 16, 2010, 02:59:51 AM
+2 to an attack gives you two more shifts on your attack, which increases damage by two shifts and increases chance of hitting.  +2 stress only when you've already hit is by definition less powerful.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: ahunting on July 16, 2010, 03:58:21 AM
so +2 stress when an attack connects is less "valuable" (can't think of better word) than a +2 to attack?

Sorry if i seem to be belaboring the point, i haven't had a chance to play the game yet, just read through it so trying to get a good sense of the game in my head is hard.

Correct. Resulting Effect is less important and so less costly then the ability to inflict effect.

Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Belial666 on July 16, 2010, 08:59:21 AM
Quote
+1 to an attack with a condition is balanced.  +2 to an attack is unbalanced unless the condition is extraordinarily rare. (for -1 powers).

Actuallly, a -1 power can give a flat +1 to an attack skill (such as true strike gives +1 to all weapons), a +2 to a specific form of attack based on a skill (such as incite emotion gives a type of melee maneuers and blocks at skill+2) or a +2 to stress if you hit.

So yes, you can get a +2 to a specific attack application of a skill - but it has to be specific.
Title: Re: -Refresh for skills?
Post by: Barodahn on July 17, 2010, 04:23:49 AM
So consensus is...Athletic Prowess or whatever i decide to call it should be just +1 to attack if you have a higher athletics score then??

Another idea to run past you all that maybe should go in the focused practitioner thread, but i am going to toss here anyway since it is still for this same character, maybe, undecided on that.  (The long lived theme and then the evocation theme both being present is due to him being scion of a wind god essentially, seems odd for him not to have at least some ability with the wind)

Specialized Magic
-1 refresh, May be taken multiple times, but not more then your conviction or your discipline, whichever is lower. (maybe half? so it is limited by your "actual" ability even more?)

May only be taken for Channeling.  You loose the option to have foci  or enchanted items. (and loose option to use refinement for those purposes)

Due to your control of a certain element being intrinsic, you are unable to make foci or magical items.  Instead when you take this power you gain a +1 to either conviction or disciple that only functions for your channeling.

Am i off base or is this a decent way to give a focused practitioner a way to excel and advance, and yet stay focused... loosing foci and enchanted items is a lot, so i think it balances out okay...opinions?
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: luminos on July 17, 2010, 06:03:23 AM
yeah, it balances out, but why wouldn't you just use a refinement to buy more focus items?
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 17, 2010, 06:57:21 AM
A Focused Practitioner can be quite potent without anything beyond what is in the book. With only one element, you can still get a +2 Control/+1 Power specialization (or vice versa) from Refinement, and Focus Items can raise that to even higher levels. Also, the lack of additional elements becomes helpful in selecting focus items, in some ways. Harry has his slots divided across Spirit and Fire, and completely lacks anything to enhance Air or Earth Magic. A Focused Practitioner will always have his foci be relevant to the element he is using.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 17, 2010, 07:15:49 AM
Uh...you can't get Specializations with Channeling dude. Still the basic point is reasonable enough.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 17, 2010, 03:36:31 PM
Hm, you sure? I need to revise a one-shot pregen, then. With thirty minutes before game. *sighs, and goes to check the book*

EDIT: I'm inclined to disagree. The only reference I can find that supports your statement is page 182, where is says you can "gain two additional specialization bonuses for Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy." It does not say the Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy powers. And those two words describe different methods of spellcraft just as often as powers.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: lankyogre on July 17, 2010, 04:23:00 PM
Sorry to sidetrack, but can a focused practitioner take refinement?
Most of refinement refers to evocation and thaumaturgy, not channeling or ritual, so the specialization from refinement doesn't look like it fits. And the template for focused practitioner doesn't say you can take refinement, whereas the template for sorcerer or wizard does say (and in the case of sorcerer, how much).
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: ahunting on July 17, 2010, 05:55:04 PM
Sorry to sidetrack, but can a focused practitioner take refinement?
Yes they can see Channeling in YS 181. They are somewhat limited in what they can do with it.

Most of refinement refers to evocation and thaumaturgy, not channeling or ritual, so the specialization from refinement doesn't look like it fits. And the template for focused practitioner doesn't say you can take refinement, whereas the template for sorcerer or wizard does say (and in the case of sorcerer, how much).
They are limited in what they can gain from it b/c they they can't ever build a good pyramid for a major bonus. But They can take it for items slots as much as they like, So foci, Potions, and enchanted items are all open as far as they can go.

Sorcerers are the ones limited in the amount of refinement they can take See page YS 81. They can only take 1 time per spell ability. This is balanced by the fact they are encouraged to take law breaker. (Do the math and see which one is better. :D lol) But as a note I also would interpret that to mean they could still take refinement for the purposes of item slots.  (yeah know I'm Cheesy get over it.)
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: luminos on July 17, 2010, 06:25:06 PM
All magic users can take refinement for item slots.  Wizards can take it for whatever, as much as they want.  Sorcerers can take it multiple times for item slots, but only once each for Thaumaturgy and Evocation specializations.  A smart GM might want to limit how much a focused practitioner actually uses refinement for item slots, because there is a lot of abuse potential in there.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Barodahn on July 17, 2010, 06:49:37 PM
Okay, so i messed up six way from sunday in how i setup that question and the power to go with it.  Wrong, wrong, wrong on my part, i was Trying to Avoid restarting the focused practitioner discussion and instead started it!!.

I have gone in and crossed out original entry.

What I was TRYING to address was a way to make a character with a single element focus have a way to progress and become powerful while staying in a single element.  This would NOT be core dresden, but my idea of how it might work for a character in dresden born of a elemental or wind god or something like that, or for a Avatar: The last airbender, or Codex Alera type character.

So starting from the ground up.  Here is what i actually meant.

Elementalist. 
-1 Power 
You have access to one elemental type of magic from any given system.  You make use that element to cast Attack, Block, or Maneuver Spells.  You make also use it for mundane effects.  You may have a number of rote spells up to you lore.
Due to your focus and innate ability with this element, you do not gain and may not have specialization, focus items, or enchanted items.  This means you may not take refinement of any time.  You also forever forgo the option to upgrade to channeling, or evocation, you may also never take ritual or thaumaturgy.

Elemental Mastery
-1 
This power may be taken multiple  times.  When you choose this power, you gain a +1 to either your control or you power to cast and control a spell (ie, ROLLS).  It does not add to your conviction or discipline.  It may only be taken up to an number of times equal to half your conviction or discipline, whichever is lower (does this seem like too low a limit?). It does not effect your conviction score in terms of how much power you can cast with rote spells.

So the question is does THIS seem balanced and appropriate, having nothing to do with core "focused practitioner", as an alternative system, or is elemental mastery too strong?

Sorry for getting the discussion off track from what i was ACTUALLY trying to figure out.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: luminos on July 17, 2010, 06:54:21 PM
Elemental Mastery seems balanced, it could perhaps be given a higher cap on the number of times being taken.  Elementalist is too powerful, I believe.  Its almost on par with channeling, with a slight disadvantage for not having the focus items.  Might I suggest requiring a player to take at least one level of Elemental Mastery to go with Elementalist?  That would make it look perfect to me.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 17, 2010, 08:35:58 PM
EDIT: I'm inclined to disagree. The only reference I can find that supports your statement is page 182, where is says you can "gain two additional specialization bonuses for Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy." It does not say the Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy powers. And those two words describe different methods of spellcraft just as often as powers.

See p. 181 under Channeling itself: "You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)—but you may only buy Refinement for that purpose."


Elementalist...isn't too bad, actually. The loss of the Focus Items really weakens it. Though I'm not at all sure it's necessary. Channeling serbes the same thematic purpose quite well. Elemental mastery doesn't look too bad either, though I'm a bit more worried about what allowing it would cause.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Barodahn on July 18, 2010, 09:35:10 PM
So putting things together, though without some of what we have talked about, too hard to do all of the ideas.

How does this look?
Some of these will be brief, since still figuring it out.


Alucious *haven't thought of last name yet*
High Concept, Son of the God of Wind
Trouble: Having a hard time with this,

Aspect.  Older than recorded history.  His father was a early wind god, worshiped by his people and given form, Alucious was his first born son, leader of the tribe of wind (there were tribes for every element), war began with another group of tribes worshiping different things, all the tribes were wiped out, (as fas as he knows) he was the only one left alive, without the worship, his father lost power a died, gave his blade to his son to guard to world with before he faded.
           Wielder of the Wind Blade, trying to protect the world and people, he traveled, having been taught the sword by a god of wind (ie, speed) he became incredibly skilled, and found that he did not age and was even faster than before.
           Someone stole 100 years from me and they will pay.  Someone somehow snuck up on him and took him out, never saw them, no idea who, but they captured him, stuck him in a cave and imprisoned him, impaled on his own sword for over a hundred years, was rescued
(click to show/hide)
, found the world anew and very different than what he remembered.

ran out of ideas for aspects there really, anyone have something else that might fit?

           
Skills

Superb:   Weapons, Scholarship
Great:     Athletics, Resources
Good:     Conviction, Endurance
Fair:       Presence, Stealth, Conviction
Average: Guns, Might, Rapport, Empathy, Investigation

Great: Deceit, Alertness, Lore, Survival (due to Wide Experience)

Stunts:
-1 Wall of Death

Powers
-2 Inhuman Speed
-1 Senses of the Wind Born, improved hearing, strange sense
-4 Wide Experience, applied to Deceit, Alertness, Lore, Survival
       You have extensive experience, and by extensive we mean not hundreds, but likely thousands of years. Due to this extensive experience, you may use your Scholarship at -1 instead of another skill for all uses of said skill. This power may only be taken for intellectual skills, or ones that can be learned purely intellectually, physical abilities require constant practice. You may take this Power multiple times, but no more than your Scholarship rating.

+2 Item of Power.  Wind Blade
It is what is is.  Weapon: 3
-2 Inhuman Speed, raises him to Supernatural effectively
-2 Inhuman Recovery
+1   Catch (dismemberment), ie, regeneration, no regrowth, beheading kills, etc

Would have to have found a way to fit in elementalist and the fast hands, but i just can't find the points for it to really do what i want,  i like the has a ton of knowledge from being alive so long....

I think he comes together as a decently playable character but could use some advise for a trouble and additional aspects...
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: luminos on July 18, 2010, 09:43:33 PM
Yeah, now that I look at it, the wide experience power makes me extremely uncomfortable.  If it was done as a stunt, it would only apply to a single trapping of a skill, and only under particular circumstances.  As it is, I wouldn't accept this power in any game I played in.  Also, your use of it breaks the rules for it that you have stated, as alertness is a non-intellectual skill, and survival is only debatably  so.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 18, 2010, 10:07:26 PM
Powers are way wider than Stunts, though. Look at A Few Seconds Ahead, which grants two entire Dodge trappings. Ad even Stunts can grant multiple trappings depending on the trapping in question, look at Cat Burglar. Combine that with the limit on what skills and how many you can take...


And this version only gives it to you at -1 (actually, that sounds better balanced to me than my original...) yeah, that helps a lot.


Though I do agree on Alertness being too physical for it to be used (it includes Initiative after all). survival's borderline, but not somethng that requires constant practice, so I'd definitely allow it. You have Conviction twice, though (at Good and Fair). I'd replace Alertness with Discipline as a Wide Experience skill and make do with Fair Alertness, personally.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 18, 2010, 10:39:21 PM
See p. 181 under Channeling itself: "You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)—but you may only buy Refinement for that purpose."

Ah, that would be it. Thanks for the pointer.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Barodahn on July 18, 2010, 10:57:07 PM
Realistically speaking, with wide experience giving -1 and scholarship at 5, this gives 4 skills at rank 4.  This comes out to for a -4 power, gaining 16 skills points.  Other powers at -4 are true shape shifting, which lets you change shape, get +4 to two different skills, and lets you reshuffle skills points, or any of the supernatural tier, which gives such things at going first, +2 to all athletics or +4 when sprint, move two zones without penalty, etc.  I would say wide experience at -4 is a LESS powerful power then evocation or thaumaturgy, supernatural strength EASILY does more and gives more bonus's than 16 skills points. 

Having said that, 16 skills points is a lot, it is over half again the number of points given to a submerged character.  and this would of course get worse if you ever raised scholarship to say fantastic, you could get 6 skills at great, which would be 30 points for -6 refresh....

So I would say a bit of modification might be in order.  Perhaps limit it to HALF your scholarship in number of skills it can modify? 
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Barodahn on July 23, 2010, 12:10:23 AM
Elementalist...isn't too bad, actually. The loss of the Focus Items really weakens it. Though I'm not at all sure it's necessary. Channeling serbes the same thematic purpose quite well. Elemental mastery doesn't look too bad either, though I'm a bit more worried about what allowing it would cause.

More ideas and reply (got busy reading the book since it finally got here...)

Thematically the reason i want elementalist (as opposed to just taking channeling) is because i wanted a way to have someone innately use a single element.  They don't think of it as an external thing, they would never think of making a focus item, or a an enchanted item, they just want the wind to move, or a fire to burst out and it does.  So to do that, i removed that portion of the power.

Now, a revision to earlier idea's.
Hyper speed.  
-1
You may spend a fate point to hyper accelerate your body beyond the normal bounds of speed.  You gain a +2 to your rolls in combat with fists or weapons if your athletics is higher than theirs.  This is to both attack and defense rolls, however, the + to attack does not translate to additional stress once you hit.  It simply enables you to get your attacks past their defenses and use your speed to avoid being hit.  As a result of over stressing you body, take 1 physical stress for every round this power was activated, you may take a consequence to alleviate this stress as normal.  Something like unbelievable pain, or wrenched every muscle in my body, torn ligaments, etc might be appropriate.

 (this could also be no fate point cost and +1/+1...)

Going to sit down and make some different version of this guy, which seems like the most interesting to play to you all? "Weapons + tons of knowledge", Weapons + Wind Evocation, or a simpler "Dear god he is good with weapons!!!!" ?

Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: wyvern on July 23, 2010, 12:56:51 AM
Powers are way wider than Stunts, though. Look at A Few Seconds Ahead, which grants two entire Dodge trappings.

I think it's worth pointing out, here, that A Few Seconds Ahead isn't in YS.  It's not one of the core Powers; it's a special one-off thing designed for one particular NPC.  And, personally, I feel it's worth more than a measly -1 refresh - especially when you're talking about a PC level character who can (and, with access to a stunt like that, almost certainly will) put Lore at +5 (or +4 if that's their skill cap).

Maybe -2 refresh? For comparison, a mortal stunt that transplants a dodge trapping never even shifts the whole trapping (See the examples for giving guns dodging via a stunt, or footwork which adds ranged defense to fists - note in the second case that fists can already defend against melee attacks, so we're again only adding a limited subset of dodge.)  So -2 refresh for physical and social defense is still well ahead of the mortal stunt power curve.  (Especially when you count in that social defense is moving trappings from at least three different skills: Empathy, Rapport, and Discipline.)

While the stats of the various NPCs in the OW faces of the cases section do provide a nice reference, I don't really regard them as being strict canon - for example, Kumori is listed as not having Lawbreaker.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 23, 2010, 07:07:04 PM
Barodahn:

Hyper Speed seems really unwieldy...bonuses to hit that don't help with damage just aren't part of the system.

And you should go with whichever version of the guy seems most reasonable.



wyvern:

That's just not how it works. All Powers in OW are completely canon as acceptable powers. The stat blocks are speculative and debatable (like Kumori's lack of Lawbreaker, which is actually just a minor error on Evil Hat's part), but the Powers and Stunts were all designed by the exact same people who wrote up those in the core book and are every bit as canonical.

But even leaving that aside, check out Inhuman Strength:

+2 damage. Flat, stacks with other effects. Worth two or three Stunts right there. Call it 2 1/2. Actually, more like 5 since it applies to all Weapons and Fists attacks.
+3 to Might for lifting. Very explicitly 1 1/2 Stunts.
+1 to Might for Grappling. 1 Stunt.
Might always adds to other skills. Not really a Stunt effect, but call it 1 1/2 Stunts based on it being better than Supreme Concentration.

That's 9 Stunts of stuff for -2 Refresh.

Now assuming two Stunts to shift an entire Dodge trapping (sounds about right), A Few Seconds Ahead is worth 4. Or less than half as many. Now, Inhuman Strength is indisputably one of the better -2 Refresh powers, and A Few Seconds Ahead indisputably a very good -1 Refresh power...but not outside the realm of what's allowed.

Now, the list of skills Wide Experience can grant is basically as follows: Conviction, Deceit, Discipline, Empathy, Intimidation, Investigation, Lore, Performance, Presence, Rapport, Survival.

Now, of those, barring Rapport, none have more than 5 Trappings (and usually, transferring a Trapping is one Stunt), and most 4 or less, so adding them is indisputably not too bad. The four best are Discipline (wich at three trappings, one a Dodge trapping, is worth 4), Deceit (5 Trappings), Empathy (4 Trappings, one a Dodge trapping, so effectively 5), and Rapport (5 Trappings, one Dodge Trapping, so effectively 6). Now those would be potentially unbalancing, looking at them...which is where that -1 comes in as a very nice balancing factor.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: wyvern on July 23, 2010, 08:52:08 PM
For comparison, inhuman speed calculates out to roughly six stunts, and the defensive powers (toughness/recovery) work out to about four to six stunts each.  As A Few Seconds Ahead is a defensive power, I'd be inclined to compare it to other defensive powers first.

I also disagree with your assertion that OW Powers are inherently canon / acceptable as written under all circumstances; if everything in there had been subjected to enough attention to make sure that all powers were balanced, it would have been subjected to enough attention to catch minor errors.  Further, you're not supposed to need OW just to run the game, so I see no reason to regard powers that only appear there as part of the core game that I'd need to feel at all guilty about disallowing from player use.

I suspect, though, that this is something we're just not going to agree on; my opinion on that particular power is based primarily off what it lets you do with character stats, not its numerical stunt equivalency.

Consider a wizard with +5 discipline and lore and A Few Seconds Ahead - suddenly you've got a character with effectively maximum values for magical attacks, all forms of defense, and thaumaturgy.  How do you provide appropriate opposition for such a PC?  Anything that can scratch them (in *any* form of combat) is going to walk all over other PCs that will have weaknesses in their defenses - everyone else will have at least one realm of attack where they've got only +3 for defense - and that's assuming they stack their skills to focus purely on defense.
And that's the logical character build to make if you have access to A Few Seconds Ahead; it doesn't even require deliberate munchkinry, just the existence of the power.  That's why I don't like the power; it makes it far too easy to accidentally build a character whose only weakness is that they've probably got a low athletics and will have to resort to thaumaturgy if something decides to run away from them.
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Barodahn on July 24, 2010, 12:21:18 AM
On the issues of a few seconds a head you have to look at the downside, she has an aspect that can be comprelled willynilly by the GM whenever, that will/should probably take her out of the action, she has seizures/epilepsy! (i forget which right now)

On the hyperspeed, i did sorta model it after reposte, (not getting the +2 from a full defense roll to the attack).  But it does feel unqieldy, if i ever decide to use this idea/concept i might just do something like +1 to attack, +1 to defense for weapons or fists if you have higher athletics, do you think that should have a fate point/stress consequence or it is weak enough that way?
Title: Re: Various power balance questions (Previously -refresh for skills)
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 24, 2010, 01:00:44 AM
For comparison, inhuman speed calculates out to roughly six stunts, and the defensive powers (toughness/recovery) work out to about four to six stunts each.  As A Few Seconds Ahead is a defensive power, I'd be inclined to compare it to other defensive powers first.

Inhuman Speed is indeed only 6...so? Whether the Stunt is actually offensive or defensive matters little. And it being 4 is actually rounding up, it's closer to three IMO.

I also disagree with your assertion that OW Powers are inherently canon / acceptable as written under all circumstances; if everything in there had been subjected to enough attention to make sure that all powers were balanced, it would have been subjected to enough attention to catch minor errors.  Further, you're not supposed to need OW just to run the game, so I see no reason to regard powers that only appear there as part of the core game that I'd need to feel at all guilty about disallowing from player use.

Uh...they did some last minute changes to Lawbreaker so Lawbreaker specifically is a bit hit or miss, and even then only Kumori is really wrong. Does one single mistake really invalidate a whole book?

I suspect, though, that this is something we're just not going to agree on; my opinion on that particular power is based primarily off what it lets you do with character stats, not its numerical stunt equivalency.

Ah. Well, I don't usually bother with worrying about that. There are a dozen different ways for things to be broken, with the only way to stop them being a good GM.

Additionally, this isn't really an argument abut A Few Seconds Ahead itself, it was a random example I used to make a point. Inhuman Strength works equally well.

Consider a wizard with +5 discipline and lore and A Few Seconds Ahead - suddenly you've got a character with effectively maximum values for magical attacks, all forms of defense, and thaumaturgy.  How do you provide appropriate opposition for such a PC?  Anything that can scratch them (in *any* form of combat) is going to walk all over other PCs that will have weaknesses in their defenses - everyone else will have at least one realm of attack where they've got only +3 for defense - and that's assuming they stack their skills to focus purely on defense.
And that's the logical character build to make if you have access to A Few Seconds Ahead; it doesn't even require deliberate munchkinry, just the existence of the power.  That's why I don't like the power; it makes it far too easy to accidentally build a character whose only weakness is that they've probably got a low athletics and will have to resort to thaumaturgy if something decides to run away from them.

Uh...I have a character right now with Weapons, True Strike, a Stunt to use it as defense against ranged attacks, and Discipline and Rapport 4. He's just about on par, and pretty damn dangerous, and I didn't intentionally focus on defense with him, he's just a swordsman with Sponsored Magic and a heck of a nice guy. Is he broken? He's a bit more expensive than the A Few Seconds Ahead guy, but hardly ridiculously so, and a dangerous guy.

You're really exaggerating how broken it is.