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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: The Werewolf on July 13, 2010, 03:02:29 AM
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how would someone stats up a nephilim?
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Depends on what powers you want them to have. By legend, they might just have Inhuman Strength and Toughness and maybe Hulking Size, if you go by Eden Studio's Witchcraft, they'd definitely have Inhuman Recovery and a Physical Immunity (Magic Only), if you want them to have more angelic powers, Wings and Soulfire are good choices.
What type of Nephilim are you aiming for?
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well my gm is giving us 35 skill points, 10 refresh, superb skill cap and submerged power level. so i was going for a nephilim vampire hunter/killer like blade
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Well, Blade isn't personally a Nephilim, but if you just want to be physically badass that's easy:
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch is Unholy Stuff [+2]
Toss on a Strange Sense allowing him to 'smell' evil or some such and you're good to go.
That'll only be 7 Refresh which'd leave you enough to get a few fun Mortal Stunts if you wanted.
But that's only one way to do it, a focused magic using Nephilim with Soulfire might make an equally scary vampire hunter in a very different way, and there are a dozen other possibilities depending on what you want to do.
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nice
i was thinking
inhuman speed -2
inhuman recovery -2
inhuman toughness -2
wings -1
and pretty much the same catch, which leaves 5 refresh for anything else
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That, too, works fine. :)
Assuming the wings are retractable, remember to note Human Guise with them. It's -0, but still worth noting.
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and pretty much the same catch, which leaves 5 refresh for anything else
Or maybe.. five refresh for fate points.
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very true
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nice
i was thinking
inhuman speed -2
inhuman recovery -2
inhuman toughness -2
wings -1
and pretty much the same catch, which leaves 5 refresh for anything else
with this stats the wings would always be visible. just a heads up...
EDIT: oh sorry ... over read what DMW wrote. mea culpa...
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yeah that why i added human guise
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Oooo... I like it.
So let's see. First, who were the nephilim?
Genesis 6:4, from the NIV:
“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown”.
Enouch 7:1,2 (canonical scripture included in the Bible)
“It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children."
Jude 1:6
“And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day”
Nephilim could be seen in a few ways.
A. They were powerful children of unions between human and angel (sons of God)
B. They may have been the 'titans' of greek folklore
C. They could have been the demigods of greek lore (Hercules, for instance) or the gods themselves
For that matter, following the Christian faith, there is no reason that the angels who 'abandoned their positions of authority' might not be the Olympians or the original titans. The 'titans' or nephilim could have turned on their parents, as the Olympians turned on the titans. Jude says that God holds the nephilim in chains. Perhaps it was from this that the tales of the Olympian gods turning on their parents came from.
Anyway, here is what I think we are looking at:
channeling(-2, -4 to use spellfire): soulfire/hellfire (which one? They were sired by angels who didn't do what they should. Hellfire then? Perhaps access to one or the other depending on the nephilim? I don't know. Can we just call it 'spellfire' or is that a copyright? I don't think it is.)
hulking size(-2): (remember that nephilim means 'giant')
Mythic recovery, speed, strength, toughness(-6 each):
True shapeshifting or human form (-4/-2)
That is about 32.
That is not counting things like refinements or, if you go the 'Olympian' route, different nephilim might have additional specialties. Poseidon, for instance, would be 'aquatic'. And yes, I put channeling soulfire/hellfire. I think of certain beings as more like their own sources of power. If you want, call it sponsored magic, but the being is their own sponsor.
And I really don't think you should have any wings in there.
So after that, I think anything from that list, but graded down, would be viable. The magic part, if included, should be something like this:
Evocation element: Spellfire
Add +4 to the refresh cost to use spellfire as an element. Spellfire is similar to soulfire, in that it comes from within and is far more broad in its use than regular evocation. Consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy spells, with evocation’s methods and speed, as mentioned in YS288. Since spellfire is not sponsored casting, you do not get the other similar effects, such as tagging an aspect for free.
Note: This is most applicable to beings of power 'far beyond that of mortal ken'. In other words, gods walking the earth, or powerful agents thereof. Many unstatted creatures in the books would have access to this power.
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In my novice, practicing with the system game, one of the players wanted a Nephilim with wings. I didn't see any reason to say no, so they ended up with Inhuman Strength, Human Guise, and Wings. (6 Refresh game.) The feathers are useful for thaumaturgy rituals so the character's relationships with other supernaturals is based on "what do they want, exactly?".
The wings and strength came in handy for leaving an apartment crime scene...the changeling veiled their way in past the officer, but then the door was closed, and I ruled that veil or not, the officer was probably going to notice the door opening from an 'empty' room. (Only the 2 point Glamour power.) But the apartment had big windows, and no one ever looks up...
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Based on what everyone's had to say about the nephilim thus far, here's my take on it.
Musts:
Nephilim characters must choose a high concept that reflects their angelic or infernal parentage. Nephilim must take all of the baseline powers.
Nephilim Baseline Powers:
Hulking Size [-1]
Marked by Power (God or Satan) [-1]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch (Unholy for Angelic Nephilim, Holy for Nephilim of the Fallen) [+1]
Nephilim Optional Powers:
Supernatural Sense [-1 to -3]
Wings [-1]
Cloak of Shadows [-1]
Human Guise [-0]
Domination [-1]
Incite Emotion [-1]
Soulgaze [-1]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Sponsored Magic (Don't know specifically what and not going to look...Soul or Hellfire seem good additions also.) [-Varies]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Bless This House [-1]
Guide My Hand [-1]
Holy Touch [-1]
Righteousness [-1]
Minimum Refresh Cost: -3
Hulking Size seems to be pretty necessary, and they don't need Inhuman Strength or Toughness as musts in that case; since Hulking Size makes them slightly stronger and tougher than the average mortal. While a Nephilim that big would draw a lot of attention, it seems evident that if everyone knows they're supposed to be giants, most of them probably don't have Human Guise; but that's not to say they can't have it, it's just not standard.
I gave them Inhuman Recovery just to give them a real power instead of Wizard's Constitution. It seems reasonable that the angelic power suffusing their bodies would make them impossibly healthy. The Catch is pretty obvious, and while it normally could've been worth as much as a +2 or even +3, obviously it can't reduce the cost to -0. But, it'll be helpful if they later upgrade to Supernatural or Mythic versions. I included the potential for the Fallen to create nephilim of their own somehow, just for the sake of cosmic balance. This is reflected both in The Catch, and in the optional powers.
Marked by Power seemed appropriate, since there's just no way other supernatural beings will fail to sense their incomparable connection to the divine or the infernal. And let's face it, Satan will use infernal Nephilim as pawns just as he would anyone else...and God isn't likely to abandon potential champions of faith. So, they WILL have backup in that regard, not unlike the Knights of the Cross.
As for the optional powers, I'd think they're all fairly self-evident. Some of the more malicious powers for the infernals, or even the wet-works good-guys; with the True Faith powers for pillar of goodness good-guys and the infernals with a conscience. (I happen to like the ideas of both heroes that fall as well as redeemed villains.) Wings was listed as optional because someone's gonna want wings for their half-angel...duh. Human guise is optional because too many know the nephilim to be giants for it to be standard, and they'll need it if they've got wings. The sponsored magic I don't know well, and don't wanna look up; but it's pretty easy to know that it should be flavored according to the nephilim's angelic or infernal nature. The other physical powers were added just because angels are supposed to be the warriors of God...there's no way they won't at least have ACCESS to those abilities at some point.
Anyway, that's how I see it. Have at it.
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Anyway, that's how I see it. Have at it.
Very impressive. I may have to use that template somewhere :)
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In general I like it. Though my impression is that nephilim are almost automatically infernal, since the angels who 'lay with the daughters of man' were abandoning the posts God placed them in. Though maybe not, bringing in the 'heroes' thing (mentioned below). Either way, for game purposes it is good to have both.
I'd still add inhuman toughness and strength as well, just because part of their heritage is that they were 'the heroes of old, men of renown' and I do think that is part of it.
To go a little more technical, Hulking Size gives an increase to might based on 'absolute power'. This is the same measurement that says a 300lb weightlifter will probably lift more than a 150lb weightlifter. But the lighter lifter can lift much more weight proportionally (the 300lb-er benching 600lbs is lifting 2x his weight, where the 150lb-er lifting 375lbs is lifting 2.5x his weight). This has to do with mass increasing at a higher rate than a muscle's power as a creature gets larger. It is the same reason that while elephants are strong, they move in a very particular way and are built to support their weight. Larger creatures generally place their feet carefully and then lock knees out as they walk, in part because of the lower strength/weight ratio.
Anyway, point is, if you get too big you start to lose the ability to actually move with a human's structure, unless you have superhuman strength. Same reason you can't have giant insects (ok, ONE of the reasons). I haven't done the math, but I feel like anything over around 10ft would be pushing it. Thoughts?
Andre's strength and size:
http://www.puroresu.com/personalities/andre/andresi.html
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honestly i always took the nephilim, Huge, thing to mean that they were spiritually big. Like bigger than mortals. I mean i can definatlely see them being bigger physically but thats how i saw the specific meaning.
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Nephilim Baseline Powers:
Hulking Size [-1]
Hulking Size is WAY bigger than I see your typical PC being without Human Guise. Look at it this way, Siberian Tigers are actually fairly sneaky, Hulking Size makes you incapable of Stealth, so, by definition it makes you bigger than they are...that's not 300 lbs, that's a minimum of 700 or so, and likely at least 8 feet tall (I put the minimum at 1000 lbs personally). Not everyone a bit bigger than average needs Hulking Size.
Also, it's a -2 power, not a -1.
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Hulking Size is WAY bigger than I see your typical PC being without Human Guise. Look at it this way, Siberian Tigers are actually fairly sneaky, Hulking Size makes you incapable of Stealth, so, by definition it makes you bigger than they are...that's not 300 lbs, that's a minimum of 700 or so, and likely at least 8 feet tall (I put the minimum at 1000 lbs personally). Not everyone a bit bigger than average needs Hulking Size.
Also, it's a -2 power, not a -1.
Noted on the power cost.
Still as far as Hulking Size goes, Nephilim are rare enough and the legends of their size pervasive enough, that Hulking Size is viable. Obviously, if they happen to have access to Human Guise, they won't even look like an overly large person...they'll be normal.
Ultimately, I'm out of my element anyway, because while I've read a variety of holy books, I haven't bothered to memorize or reread any of them. Hulking Size seems to be a good baseline for Nephilim based on what I've heard so far though. As such, Human Guise is a logical optional power for them.
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Oooo, I like it. However, I disagree that Hulking Size is necessary. The term "Giants" was an improper translation and has been replaced with 'Nephilim' in newer translations. You can see various different translations of the genesis passage here (http://www.bible.cc/genesis/6-4.htm). Might be good to move Hulking Size to the optional powers list.
Personally the idea of Hulking Size babies born of mortal women doesn't seem right, regardless of who the father was. :o
Either way though, cool template. 8)
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I like the template, and thank you prophet, for the quotes from the appropriate sources.
I really think though that the template should include the choice to be either Hell fire, or Soul Fire, and that they can "choose" similar to the Changeling choice which side manifests, perhaps after some extremely traumatic event (Severe Consequence), that they start channeling the other, all though the change to which you channel would fit best with falling from grace, so Soul Fire to Hell Fire.
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Well, 'giants' isn't really an improper translation, exactly. As far as I can tell, 'Nephilim' is the original word, which means something akin to 'fallen ones'. However, as many of the sources that refer to Nephilim also refer to them as giants, the word 'giants' was used to replace the more unusual 'Nephilim'.
As far as sources, I mean Genesis, Numbers, Macabees, Amos and certainly all throughout Enoch.
Here's one from Enoch:
"And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells[60]: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood."
Surprisingly (to me at least... I don't usually use answers.com), Answers.com has some pretty good write-ups with references.
http://www.answers.com/topic/nephilim#Nephilim_in_the_Hebrew_Bible
http://www.answers.com/topic/book-of-enoch#The_Book_of_the_Watchers
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Anyway, I do think Hulking Size should be a requirement, along with some level of strength bonus, as described in my previous post.
Citadel, you mention the Changeling template... I think that would be great for a 'Descendant of Nephilim'. You just pick from the Nephilim list that we come up with. :)
As far as the size and mothers, think about the tallest man, Robert Wadlow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow). He was born at 8lb 6oz (according to Wikipedia, not, of course, a perfect source) and died at 8ft 11in and 490lbs at the age of 22.
Andre, though shorter, was probably closer to a true 'giant' in that his bone structure was heavier, helping his body stand up under the size and weight. But anyway, it looks like around 7-10 feet, at least, is not unreasonable from a normal-sized woman. :)
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As a matter of flavor, whether they're born huge or not is up to the group, really. There's no reason for them to be born any more than slightly bigger than normal. If they're born too much larger, the mothers would frequently die during childbirth...which isn't unreasonable I'd think.
I left out things like the Inhuman Strength on the baseline because Inhuman Recovery is really good, and I wanted to keep the template viable for all power levels.
I try to do everything that way as much as possible...I don't like the idea of power-level-specific templates, though I know sometimes it's unavoidable.