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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: black omega on July 07, 2010, 04:16:37 PM

Title: Erlking Magic
Post by: black omega on July 07, 2010, 04:16:37 PM
I've been working on a Knight of the Erlking but he's focus is so narrow it's been tricky coming up with the elements of his magic.  What I have so far is The Hunt, Death, Spirits, Air.

The Hunt is obvious.  Death since that is the result of the hunt.  Spirits since he holds dominion over certain types of spirits, and air since it sometimes sounds like the hunt travels through the air.  Maybe some type of travel since they chase and ride down their prey.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Papa Gruff on July 07, 2010, 05:04:37 PM
You have more or less free reign on what the Erlking can do, as we know almost nothing about him...

Personally I'd put him more to the summer end of faerie, because I like the idea of him being the impersonation of Oberon, who is the King of Elves in Shakespeare's "A midsummer nights dream". In the Germanic mythology the Erlking is a King of Elves, so that would fit nicely.

Take Seelie Magic and ad stuff that seams appropriate. Thats what I'd do.



Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Drachasor on July 07, 2010, 05:25:25 PM
Well, in the books he's like a god of the hunt.  Spells that find, hide, trap, slow, improve aim/damage, and so forth are definitely in his purview. 
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: CMEast on July 07, 2010, 05:42:31 PM
He can also turn people in to hounds if they are predators. That might be a bit much for the game but bringing out a target's bestial nature, temporary aspects to bring out hound-like characteristics in yourself or the ability to recognise if someone is predator or prey (an assessment to see if they have an aspect that matches) would be suitable.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Drachasor on July 07, 2010, 05:48:22 PM
He can also turn people in to hounds if they are predators. That might be a bit much for the game but bringing out a target's bestial nature, temporary aspects to bring out hound-like characteristics in yourself or the ability to recognise if someone is predator or prey (an assessment to see if they have an aspect that matches) would be suitable.

Hmm, incite emotion effect (make them a predator)?  I think that skirts by the Laws of Magic.

Hmm, maybe magic to change your shape into any predator (and potentially others if you want to break the laws).
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: CMEast on July 07, 2010, 06:09:13 PM
Well a temporary aspect like mindless rage could be useful :)

Plus, as an emissary with sponsored magic, he may well not be bound by the laws of magic.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Tsunami on July 07, 2010, 06:23:17 PM
The "Goblin Knight", official unofficial Name as chosen by Iago *g* was discussed somewhat in this http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17255.0.html thread.
He was given stuff like that
(click to show/hide)
in Changes.
Also, the idea of tracking spells cast at evocation speeds was mentioned.

There's some nice stuff there, check it out.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: black omega on July 07, 2010, 06:33:09 PM
I'm suspecting the character would be just as bound to the laws as any knight of the faerie.  Which is to say not.  So the temp aspect is an interesting idea.

I associate the Erlking with the fall since that is the hunting season.  So the end of summer and the holidays associated with that makes sense.  If I went with that the Catch for him might well be Winter and it's trappings.

I was also thinking of taking Echoes of the Beast (hunting hound) to reflect that aspect of the character.  

And I'll check out that thread, thanks!
  

Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: ahunting on July 07, 2010, 06:36:19 PM
Goblin fire and Nets :D
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Drachasor on July 07, 2010, 07:12:16 PM
I'm suspecting the character would be just as bound to the laws as any knight of the faerie.  Which is to say not.  

It's a bit unclear really.  We don't have any sponsored magic users in the books that break laws.  Not any mortals, at least.  We don't know how the White Council would react.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: DFJunkie on July 07, 2010, 07:32:48 PM
Quote
It's a bit unclear really.  We don't have any sponsored magic users in the books that break laws.  Not any mortals, at least.  We don't know how the White Council would react.

Normally I'd say that as representatives of other Accorded powers the WC would look away if one of the Knights broke the laws, but in the case of a mortal using sponsored magic granted by a non-signatory I think it is a lot more likely that the Wardens would take his head.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 07, 2010, 07:38:32 PM
Not quite the same thing, but I did come up with a "Goblin Magic" for general Wyldfae use sponsored  by the realm of Faerie itself. My write-up:

This is the magic of the Wyldfae, which few of their teeming hordes master. Swearing allegiance to a Court revokes access to Goblin Magic, and few among the Courtless have the patience to master such subtle matters. It is potent, however, and has the added benefit of having no “oversight” such as is found in the capricious hands of the Queens. The power of Goblin Magic is drawn from Faerie itself.

Goblin Magic does not receive a discount for possessing True Magic forms like Evocation, but instead costs 1 less refresh for Glamour-wielders, and 2 less for those who wield Greater Glamours.

Channeling Uses
--Hurtful Words: Goblin oaths bite at the flesh of their targets. Can be used for Evocation-style attacks, which ignore all Toughness and Recovery powers upon a target who has broken a sworn oath to the caster.
--Invoking Faerie: While within the borders of Faerie, Goblin magic grows supremely powerful, and can perform Attacks, Blocks, and Maneuvers of almost any variety by shaping the matter of the surrounding area.
--Hedge Magic: Various minor effects can call upon the innate Wyld nature of a Goblin caster, such as a Nixie sorceress manipulating the flow of a water, or a Sylph calling on gusts of Wind.

Ritual Uses
--Curse Words, Wyld Shapings, Greater Hedge Magic: All of the Evocation uses can be performed at exceptional levels of power by a Goblin caster.

Banned Uses
--No Goblin Magic can affect or touch iron. Even the hurtful curses of a maddened Trollking can be swept aside by an iron bar, despite their immaterial nature.
--The Wyld nature of a particular caster may inhibit his magic as much as it enables it, so that a Unicorn may find his curses sliding off a virginal target, or an Ogre may have difficulty placing enchantments on things too close to his magically insulated flesh.
--No one who is not a full Wyldfae may use Goblin Magic—not Court Sidhe, Winter-sworn fetches, Summer-bound centaurs, or changelings of any variety.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: black omega on July 07, 2010, 07:43:35 PM
Normally I'd say that as representatives of other Accorded powers the WC would look away if one of the Knights broke the laws, but in the case of a mortal using sponsored magic granted by a non-signatory I think it is a lot more likely that the Wardens would take his head.
As long as the GM and I are on the same page regarding this I don't see it becoming a problem.  The above seems to be what the book suggests.  If your group is part of the accords, wizards may not like what you are doing but it's not something the wardens will come after you for.  Whether or not the Erlking is a signatory of the Accords will depend on just how isolated he's been.  
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: DFJunkie on July 07, 2010, 07:56:04 PM
Good point.  He could always be a Freeholding Lord, or for all we know he might have signed on as head of the Goblin Nation (or something).

The real question is: how would his inclusion help Mab?  Can you think of a way?  Then he's probably in.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Crion on July 07, 2010, 08:05:30 PM
Good point.  He could always be a Freeholding Lord, or for all we know he might have signed on as head of the Goblin Nation (or something).

The real question is: how would his inclusion help Mab?  Can you think of a way?  Then he's probably in.

If the Erlking is signed onto the Accords, it means he must abide by them. He can't go all willy-nilly slaughter upon other signatories without the proper backing (and we've seen what doing so can result in). Considering he's a major heavyweight, and it was quite clear that if Mab entered his territory, she wouldn't have stood a chance. . .yeah.

That alone makes it a benefit of having him as a signatory of the Accords.
Just a thought, of course.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Crion on July 07, 2010, 08:11:47 PM
It's a bit unclear really.  We don't have any sponsored magic users in the books that break laws.  Not any mortals, at least.  We don't know how the White Council would react.

Reading this again makes me think of Summer Knight. There is apparently a rule of sorts that denotes someone acting as a "tool" for another is not held responsible for their own actions.

That is, Toot and the other Little Folk were not held accountable for their actions, and the Alphas were also not held for their actions either (as was noted in "Something Borrowed"). Anyone that had a gripe about those things had to bring them up with Harry, and sidestepping that creates problems.

So. . .with this in mind, can you really consider trying to uphold a single groups laws (i.e. White Council's Laws of Magic) to a badged representative of a higher power (i.e. the Faerie Queens), when the higher power is actually the one responsible for those actions?

Again, just my line of thought, but it does lead to some interesting debates. . .
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: black omega on July 07, 2010, 08:56:11 PM
The Goblin Knight thread has alot of interesting stuff.  I'd not heard of Balefire from the Erlking before so that's something to work in as well.

I'm inclined to stick with a sword as the item of power, but the idea of a old style hunting rifle has appeal.  Mostly because it reminds of Rip Van Winkle (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_van_Winkle_%28Hellsing%29") and her magic bullets in the Hellsing manga.  Which were originally based on the opera Der Freischütz using a black huntsman (Zamiel) as the stand in for the devil in creating bullets that never miss.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: black omega on July 08, 2010, 05:06:00 AM
After some more thought, here is my shot at Erlking's magic.

Drawing on the power of the Erlking, you are able to cast spells that fit his essential nature: wildness, the hunt, balefire, bloodlust, death.  This magic is under the sway and watch of the Erlking; making use of it will inevitably catch his notice. 

Cost:  4 refresh for the package, not to mention the approval of the Erlking.  Reduce this cost by 1 if you already have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost by 2 if you have both.

Benefits:  Standard sponsored magic benefits. 

In Addition, the Erlking's magic may be used as an element for evocation, allowing evocation effects that encourage wildness, the hunt, balefire, bloodlust, and death.  This includes the ability to produce effects along the lines of divination tracking spells but with an evocation spells methods and speed.  The Erlking's evocations always include the otherworldliness of the hunt in some way.  Vines to trap will have thorns, balefire is eerie and green, a tracking spell may scare near by animals.


I'm not sure of a Catch for the Erlking, nor if there is anything he'd effect more than normal.  I'm tempted to go with Winter, since the use of fire and the end of hunting in many places once winter starts make me associate the Erlking a little more with Summer.    But this seems weak.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 08, 2010, 05:08:56 AM
Perhaps have it reduce the Toughness abilities of anyone who you've used Divination magic to follow within the last day? Those would be designated 'prey', and it'd make logical sense.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Drachasor on July 08, 2010, 06:27:22 AM
Reading this again makes me think of Summer Knight. There is apparently a rule of sorts that denotes someone acting as a "tool" for another is not held responsible for their own actions.

That is, Toot and the other Little Folk were not held accountable for their actions, and the Alphas were also not held for their actions either (as was noted in "Something Borrowed"). Anyone that had a gripe about those things had to bring them up with Harry, and sidestepping that creates problems.

So. . .with this in mind, can you really consider trying to uphold a single groups laws (i.e. White Council's Laws of Magic) to a badged representative of a higher power (i.e. the Faerie Queens), when the higher power is actually the one responsible for those actions?

Again, just my line of thought, but it does lead to some interesting debates. . .

My recollection is that this was how the Fey views things, not how the accords were written.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: CBIrish on September 06, 2010, 07:36:00 PM
After some more thought, here is my shot at Erlking's magic.

Drawing on the power of the Erlking, you are able to cast spells that fit his essential nature: wildness, the hunt, balefire, bloodlust, death.  This magic is under the sway and watch of the Erlking; making use of it will inevitably catch his notice. 

Cost:  4 refresh for the package, not to mention the approval of the Erlking.  Reduce this cost by 1 if you already have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost by 2 if you have both.

Benefits:  Standard sponsored magic benefits. 

In Addition, the Erlking's magic may be used as an element for evocation, allowing evocation effects that encourage wildness, the hunt, balefire, bloodlust, and death.  This includes the ability to produce effects along the lines of divination tracking spells but with an evocation spells methods and speed.  The Erlking's evocations always include the otherworldliness of the hunt in some way.  Vines to trap will have thorns, balefire is eerie and green, a tracking spell may scare near by animals.


I'm not sure of a Catch for the Erlking, nor if there is anything he'd effect more than normal.  I'm tempted to go with Winter, since the use of fire and the end of hunting in many places once winter starts make me associate the Erlking a little more with Summer.    But this seems weak.

If you're still looking for a Catch for the magic of the Erlking, go to a classic - let his sponsored magic be powerless against iron.  This will certainly have a greater effect in industrial areas, but if the character is in a park, the wilderness or even a botanical garden (all of which would be more in line with the general type of place one would hunt - i.e., nature) this is less of a draw back.  This would play to the strengths of the patron and likely the concept of the character and would force the character to resort to the other abilities they have.

Just a thought, but I hope it helps.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Ophidimancer on September 07, 2010, 01:35:10 AM
When thinking about wizardly applications of The Hunt, I kinda get the image of old magic, really really old magic.  Like caveman magic, where you emulate animals to gain their strengths or to pacify their spirits for the hunt.  Totemic magic, and stuff like nature themed entropomancy, where the plants, animals, and the weather turn against your target.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: babel2uk on September 07, 2010, 09:01:15 AM
My recollection is that this was how the Fey views things, not how the accords were written.

Given that they Accords were written by Mab, I'd be inclined to think that the Fey view of them is entirely accurate.

The Laws of Magic are a separate entity. As far as I recall the Laws of Magic only apply to mortal magic. Sponsored Magic is generally not mortal magic, and in the case of Faerie magic it's definitely not. The users of sponsored magic already have restrictions on it's use without bringing the Laws in. The long and short of it is that if a user of sponsored magic breaks one of the laws, the White Council has no authority to do anything at all about it, unless the result is harmful to one of their members, and even then they have only limited power of redress under the Unseelie Accords. Of course if the sponsor isn't an Accords signatory, then the Council can do whatever they please to them, under whatever justification they like.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: MijRai on September 07, 2010, 05:11:11 PM
Given that they Accords were written by Mab, I'd be inclined to think that the Fey view of them is entirely accurate.

The Laws of Magic are a separate entity. As far as I recall the Laws of Magic only apply to mortal magic. Sponsored Magic is generally not mortal magic, and in the case of Faerie magic it's definitely not. The users of sponsored magic already have restrictions on it's use without bringing the Laws in. The long and short of it is that if a user of sponsored magic breaks one of the laws, the White Council has no authority to do anything at all about it, unless the result is harmful to one of their members, and even then they have only limited power of redress under the Unseelie Accords. Of course if the sponsor isn't an Accords signatory, then the Council can do whatever they please to them, under whatever justification they like.

Well, if a human kills with magic, any magic, then that human has broken a Law of Magic. Now, whether or not the White Council can do anything is up for debate, but the Law was still broken.

As far as the Erlking's sponsored magic, there has been an update on his status!

It turns out, the Erlking is Titania's king. The King of Summer. He is the representation of the darker side of Summer, the hunters that end life compared to the bringers of life Summer is supposed to be.
I'd say he could cast magic related to fire, fear, hunger, air (that whole Autumn Wind stuff seems like it), or things that symbolize the hunt (tracking, mostly). The whole thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation thing would be useful for a hunter.

As far as who the Erlking would give this magic to? Real hunters (in the Erlking's eyes), possibly his worthy Changeling kin, etc. A White Court vampire is a true hunter, from what we see, and that would make a potent combination right there.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: babel2uk on September 07, 2010, 06:25:25 PM
Well, if a human kills with magic, any magic, then that human has broken a Law of Magic. Now, whether or not the White Council can do anything is up for debate, but the Law was still broken.

That situation is explicitly covered in the rule book (the notes on page 236) which seem to indicate that with sponsored magic such as that used by the Sidhe Knights it would be the Accords which take precedence over the Laws of Magic. That's not to say they couldn't be inflicted with a Lawbreaker stunt, but personally I think sponsored magic is restrictive enough without bringing Lawbreaker into it. Arguably the taking on of sponsored magic has already changed a person fundamentally. OK, they don't get the penalties of the Lawbreaker Stunts, but they wouldn't get the benefits either. And the sponsor can act to prevent any breaches of the laws that the GM doesn't want to allow.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 07, 2010, 06:52:28 PM
I'm not sure how the recent "those being are the Kings" pronouncement by Jim will work out in the books.

I can't see Bob labeling the Erkling as Wild Fae by accident or getting something like that wrong.  Maybe he was a king, one that was overthrown or cast out, but he seems to be an intrinsic part of the Wild Fae now.  It's going to be interesting to see if they enter the novels...

That said, Jim has done a bit of retconning in the past.  Read the part on the Archive when she is introduced and then read what is given in Small Favors.  I could be wrong, but doesn't the first book have her absorbing all of her mother's memories when she was born? Then suddenly she got the memories after her mother's suicide.  The later bit gives the character more drama and pathos, but it is different.

(click to show/hide)

Who knows? Maybe Santa Claus will appear in Ghost Story - that would make as much sense as anything else.

Richard
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: MijRai on September 07, 2010, 08:14:29 PM
I'm not sure how the recent "those being are the Kings" pronouncement by Jim will work out in the books.

I can't see Bob labeling the Erkling as Wild Fae by accident or getting something like that wrong.  Maybe he was a king, one that was overthrown or cast out, but he seems to be an intrinsic part of the Wild Fae now.  It's going to be interesting to see if they enter the novels...

That said, Jim has done a bit of retconning in the past.  Read the part on the Archive when she is introduced and then read what is given in Small Favors.  I could be wrong, but doesn't the first book have her absorbing all of her mother's memories when she was born? Then suddenly she got the memories after her mother's suicide.  The later bit gives the character more drama and pathos, but it is different.

(click to show/hide)

Who knows? Maybe Santa Claus will appear in Ghost Story - that would make as much sense as anything else.

Richard

Or, like I said before, just being a King doesn't make you different. I could marry the Queen of England, but that doesn't make me English.

As far as the Archive, she got the Archive while still inside her mother, when her mother attempted suicide. She was born with them, since her mom basically killed herself with Ivy inside.

And the Erlking doesn't want the Queen of Air and Darkness in his lair, wow. I wouldn't want the President visiting my house, especially if I was from a different country.
Title: Re: Erlking Magic
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 07, 2010, 08:36:26 PM
Or, like I said before, just being a King doesn't make you different. I could marry the Queen of England, but that doesn't make me English.

That would make you a consort - not a King.  A bit like Prince Philip is and Prince Albert was.  Interestingly enough Prince Philip wasn't given the highest rank of consort... Okay, maybe others don't find that as interesting as I do...

The way Jim is quoted as saying that bit about the Kings doesn't imply that those beings married one of the Queens but that they are Kings - embodying aspects of each court.  Just as the Queens each embody a part of the Courts the Kings embody other aspects of the Summer and Winter Courts.

Embodying an aspect of a Court is hard to do if you aren't part of those Courts.

Richard