ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Dave Mallonee on July 05, 2010, 06:44:21 AM
-
I'm working on character concepts for an upcoming game and I feel like pure mortals are underpowered for a game starting at the submerged level... am I wrong? I wanted to do a mashup of Michael Westen from Burn Notice and Riley Finn from Buffy but the more I look at the game I feel like I won't be able to carry my weight next to the werewolf, wizard, and emissary of power I'll be grouping with. Maybe I'm just not seeing the possibilities....
-
Can you eleborate a bit please?
Is your mortal going to be a combat monkey or support? What is he supposed to be?
-
Speaking as someone with a combat specialist Pure Mortal in my Las Vegas game, you can absolutely do that.
Though, like all other Dresden Files characters, you will benefit from specialization. Michael Westen is too good at too many things for the DFRPG to be good at representing him. Riley, on the other hand, is more focused and thus alot easier to do.
The only area I can think of where Mortals just cannot compete with the Supernatural is unarmed combat (where they really, legitimately, cannot). Guns are a great equalizer, and even with Weapons and an equivalent investment they can do damn well. Certainly they can be more-or-less equal in any area except direct offensive Mental combat (which they just don't have a good way to do).
-
Actually, an Aikido (I know, I know, it is an horribly overused cliche) specialist charcater can tie up more than her fair share of opponents with a generous use of tags and envirolment. Sure you won't be able to solo them but you won't be bleeding wreck after every fight either.
Anyway don't forget that you will have a lot of fate poits. 12 base refresh plus a couple of relevant aspects (strange luck, Murphy stalks me (Him not Her!), chivilary?) will enable you to slip by easyly.
Just don't give into temptation of using too much refresh. Supernaturals have to but if you try to compete with them with mortal stunts, you won't be happy. Just select a few necessary stunts and bank on fate.
-
Yeah, you can do okay at unarmed combat, but you'll never be as directly dangerous as a supernatural creature (particularly one with the same Stunt or two).
-
On the other hand, the right stunts and correct use of technology can make a huge difference. The following is a submerged version of Batman geared vs supers that can take standard black court vampires in melee. He attacks at effectively fantastic vs superstrong foes, weapon rating 4 ignoring up to 2 armor, and can tag several aspects for a quick takeout. He defends at effectively fantastic vs superstrong foes and has other serious defenses too. He might be able to take the Loup-Garou if he's sufficiently prepared.
High Concept: The Dark Knight
Trouble: Black Sheep of a Broken Family
Other aspects: Ninja of the West, Heir of a Failing Empire, A Man In A Mask, Being Eccentric For The Greater Good, Ye Shall Not Use Guns
SKILLS
+5 Athletics, Stealth, Fists
+4 Alertness, Discipline, Craftmanship (gadgets)
+3 Weapons, Endurance, Resources
+2 Might, Burglary, Intimidate
+1 Investigation, Contacts, Lore, Rapport
GADGETS AND SUBSTANCES
Batman's gadgets are masterfully crafted. They all have 2 sticky aspects (applied through craftmanship) he can tag 1/scene to boost his rolls.
Nanofiber Stealth Suit: armor 3, tagged for defense rolls and stealth
Night Vision Goggles: grant nighvision, thermal vision. Tagged for perception.
Frequency Amplifier: enhanced hearing, communication device. Tagged for perception.
Memory Rubber Batcape: can transform into a one-person glider, tagged for stealth
Carbon Nanofiber Spiked Gauntlets: weapon rating 2 usable with fists, can be used as climbing tools, tagged for fists
Iron Chain Overlay: thin glove overlays made of chain like divers' antishark gloves, made to be worn over the gauntlets. Effective vs fae.
Silver Chain Overlay: as above, but made of inherited silver from the family manor silverware. Effective vs werewolves and some demonic entities.
Utility Belt: high-quality belt with over a dozen pockets, holding additional equipment. Tagged for Declarations to have a gadget or substance at hand.
Cable Gun: shoots a nanofiber cable capable of supporting several hundged pounds up to 100 yards away with a grapnel at the end and an automatic rewind. Usable with Athletics modified by weapons to quickly climb over buildings or across long gaps. Tagged for climbing rolls.
6 exploding batarangs: balanced throwing weapons with 1 pound of high explosive and metal sharpnel. Weapons 8 area attack. Tagged for Fists.
1 psychic signal countermeasure device, tagged for mental defense.
1 general purpose warding talisman/holy symbol, tagged for defense vs magic.
10 antidote doses.
STUNTS
Extensive Training (you get extra skill points equal to the Refresh spent on Mortal Stunts)
Training Over Magic (+2 to defense rolls against targeted spells)
Reliable Innovation (gadgets Batman makes are always shielded vs electronic warfare and almost never malfunction; use his modified craftsmanship as hexing DC)
Scientist (superscience +1, gadgets +2)
Brains Over Superbrawn (attackers with Strength powers take -1 attack and -1 dodge when fighting Batman in melee as their own strength is used against them)
Counter Superstrength (through special training, Batman has learned how to absorb, roll with and counter superhumanly strong blows; he takes only half extra stress from more than human strength)
Shadow Dodge (+2 to dodge when standing in darkness)
Lethal Weapon
Armed Arts (ninja weapons-including batarangs)
Find The Gap (you can find a chink or weak spot in most defenses; armor vs your unarmed attacks is treated as 2 lower)
Roll With The Blow (if hit, takes up to 2 less stress from extra shifts in melee attacks)
10 refresh (pure mortal)
-
Dude, Extensive Training would be broken as a Power, never mind a Stunt. That's ridiculous.
Still, aside from that, the point more or less stands.
-
what they said. A pure mortal can be viable, but you need to specialize in one specific thing, and that thing can't be close combat. Ranged combat is a bit iffy, considering how the zone system makes it trivially easy for others to close distance gaps, but in some situations, it will be a useful path to take. If you really want to go the combat route with a pure mortal, I'd recommend a stealth specialist, because that is a really nifty way to pump up your damage output that most supernaturals will be on even footing or worse with you.
-
Haven't watched Burn Notice yet and I dimly remember Riley. After checking them, I came up with a few guidelines. Correct me if I'm wrong (about my assumtions, what you want)
Ex special forces or similar organisation operative, The shooty type probably? What was his secondary? Demo? Corpsman? Tech? Scout? Wheelman?
Has some contacts in military
Local police probably distrusts him
FBI, Homeland, and maybe ultimately CIA is aware of him and generally keeps track of him.
Has a decent armory, civ grade ofansive, mil grade defensive (with a few odds and ends from old days?)
You could give him curio licence, that would enable you to legally own antique weapons. And yes compared to a modern firearm they are inferior but compared to a shotgun... Just look: http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/001684/1684643.jpg
You might want a dayjob of pyro-technichian, little fire/flash/smoke/high explosive packages may be a great equlizer.
Since you are the most fragile member of the party, I would strongly recomend Strategic Ofence / Tactical Defence route. Have good defense and always have prepared killzones. Even a puny commerical flashbang coupled with some pepperspray or deployed fishing line trap can be enough to knock out a supernatural. (Sure a 5 story drop helps too :P)
-
Michael Westen is a workable character concept at submerged. A high deceit skill would be central to the character, and either a deceit or performance stunt to allow him to effectively play the role of a large number of personas. Other skills that are useful would be burglary, driving, guns, and one other social skill, probably rapport (and decent empathy and performance would help as well). His main focus is working an "asset" and conning the bad guys. He rarely uses direct force to achieve objectives, and when he does use force, its usually part of the show needed to convince (i.e. trick) someone of part of his act. Michael Westen really is skilled at combat, but for game purposes, you don't have to make it a high ranked skill to simulate the way he would act in most situations.
-
Actually, an Aikido (I know, I know, it is an horribly overused cliche) specialist charcater can tie up more than her fair share of opponents with a generous use of tags and envirolment. Sure you won't be able to solo them but you won't be bleeding wreck after every fight either.
I am reminded of an old Avengers comic where an agent managed to trip the Hulk with martial arts...
A Pure Mortal with Superb in Fists, along with the Footwork and Redirected Force stunts, can hold off one foe pretty well. Use Total Defense until you are attacked, dodge the strike (shouldn't be too hard with an +7 roll on average, before invoking aspects), then use Redirected Force to apply a maneuver on the target.
However, one often overlooked aspect of Pure Mortals is the use of mortal institutions. A high Contacts and Resources can cause supernatural foes a lot of difficulty, if used well. If nothing else, Resources plus the Windfall stunt can let you hire someone like Kincaid.
-
Another possible way to implement a highly skilled (but otherwise mortal) character is to go the Jason Bourne route. Give up the +2 refresh bonus for being a pure mortal, take beast change to represent the change between your 'killer' self and your 'normal' self. This lets have two different skill sets, and switch between them as needed. This also lets you get a bunch of minor cinematic powers.
So we could have something like:
Regular, stealthy you:
+5: Burglary
+4: Deceit, Fists
+3: Endurance, Presence, Rapport
+2: Alertness, Empathy, Investigation, Scholarship
+1: Athletics, Conviction, Discipline, Guns, Stealth
And then, assassin fighty you:
+5: Fists
+4: Alertness, Guns
+3: Burglary, Endurance, Presence
+2: Deceit, Empathy, Investigation, Scholarship
+1: Athletics, Conviction, Discipline, Rapport, Stealth
And your refresh total might look like:
Powers:
-1 beast change
Stunts:
-1 footwork
-1 lethal weapon
-1 medical training
-1 no pain, no gain
-1 languages
Total: -6
Leaving you with 4 points of refresh left.
You are pretty tough, you have great or superb basic defenses, have a lot of utility skills, can still fight ok for a mortal, speak up to 5 additional languages, can do medical treatments at good skill. If you want, you can also stack up some minor powers, which are generally more effective than stunts. For example, you could replace lethal weapon with 'Dim Mak' and have a hacked version of incite emotion that relied on fists instead of deceit. Then you could do instant blocks against people at fists +2 and justify it that you are hitting the chakra points and immobilizing them, or something. And you can take cloak of shadows and rename it something like "student of batman". Or you could take 'hollywood hacking' as a minor power, probably similar in implementation to psychometry. And as far as everyone in the world is concerned, you are just a regular mortal.
-
Psst, you forgot the +2 from mortal (And there are mortals withs such drastic personality change capabilities, just add a terrible old experience (and a corresponding pschological stunt) that makes the guy a harmless, kind joe one moment and a stone cold killer next.)
-
Since beast change is officially a power, you lose the +2 pure mortal refresh bonus. That's why I go on to recommend all sorts of minor powers to go along with it.
-
Yes but the point was to make this character a vanilla mortal?
(I'm not dissing your idea, it is really good btw.)
-
Michael Westen is a workable character concept at submerged. A high deceit skill would be central to the character, and either a deceit or performance stunt to allow him to effectively play the role of a large number of personas.
That's just the normal use of Deceit. He's not trying to disguise himself as a specific other person, just lying to them about who he is or what he can do for him.
Other skills that are useful would be burglary, driving, guns, and one other social skill, probably rapport (and decent empathy and performance would help as well). His main focus is working an "asset" and conning the bad guys. He rarely uses direct force to achieve objectives, and when he does use force, its usually part of the show needed to convince (i.e. trick) someone of part of his act. Michael Westen really is skilled at combat, but for game purposes, you don't have to make it a high ranked skill to simulate the way he would act in most situations.
Don't forget that his High Concept of "Burned Secret Agent" is an aspect and he can easily invoke it with one of his many fate points for a +2 on any task that a spy would be good at. Any time during the show when he's talking about how a spy does something, that's an Invoke in action. This lets him be whomever he needs to be, know what he needs to know and lets him use Scholarship to make declarations about people, places and things so he can exploit a bunch of their weak points all at once for the takedown.
Even with a +1 skill, toss in a couple of tagged declarations and invoke that Spy aspect and you're looking at a base of +7, that kind of thing is easy to underestimate while looking at a character writeup and being tempted to give someone 45+ skill points, 11 stunts and a free tag because of equipment in every scene in a Submerged Level Game. Yes, Batman thread, I'm talking about you ;D
-
I agree with most of that, with the exception that I think he uses burglary to make most of his declarations rather than scholarship.
-
Hmm. Maybe I did speak too soon.
Let's see how I'd make Michael Westen, eh?
Name: Michael Westen
Aspects:
High Concept: Burned Spy
Trouble: Can't Resist A Cry For Help
Other:
Solitary Man
Bad Things For Good Reasons
Nobody Will Take My Calls
Loyal to His Friends
Improvised Backup Plans
Skills:
Superb: Deceit,
Great: Burglary, Discipline, Fists,
Good: Alertness, Craftsmanship, Endurance,
Fair: Athletics, Investigation, Guns,
Average: Conviction, Driving, Presence,
Stunts:
Cat Burglar (Burglary)
Demolitions Training (Craftsmanship)
Takes One To Know One (Deceit)
Martial Artist (Fists)
Armed Arts: Knife, Bludgeon (Fists)
Nasty Infighter: May use Fists instead of Might to initiate and hold grapples (Fists)
Footwork (Fists)
Linguist (Scholarship)
Total: -6 Refresh (Pure Mortal)
Stress:
Mental: OOO
Physical: OOOO
Social: OOO
Armor: Usually, none.
Note: He rapidly piles up Significant Milestones, grabbing Scholarship and Contacts at Average, and Rapport and Stealth at Fair quite quickly, and raising Investigation to Good at the same rate.
Huh, that worked out better than I thought it would. Guess I underestimated what can be done with a Submerged character.
-
Nice work. I love Burn Notice.
-
Nice work. I love Burn Notice.
Yeah, me too. :)
Hence, well, doing it.
-
I'm often amazed at how well this system actually simulates DRAMA well. Sure, the stuff it comes out with might not always be statistically perfect, or make total sense by the rules, but it encourages quick-thinking players to do more than just "I attack him!"
I've gotten to the point now that when I'm listening to the audio-books (go James go!) I can't help but see every invoke, tag, and compulsion that Harry does! I'm sure as I learn the system more, I'll get even MORE into it.
It will likely permanently flaw how I see fiction in general.
Wonder how Fate: Ahnk-Morpork will work?
-
Nice on the Michael Westen, Fiona and Sam would also make good examples of Pure Mortals that can hold there own. Sam with his Seal training and Contacts, and Fiona putting holes in everything or making it go boom... the three of them really show what Pure Mortals can do when they put their minds to it.
-
Anyway don't forget that you will have a lot of fate poits. 12 base refresh plus a couple of relevant aspects (strange luck, Murphy stalks me (Him not Her!), chivilary?) will enable you to slip by easyly.
Just don't give into temptation of using too much refresh. Supernaturals have to but if you try to compete with them with mortal stunts, you won't be happy. Just select a few necessary stunts and bank on fate.
Having extra fate points allows you to do more triggering Aspects ...
Is it possible to trigger other player's aspects to give them a boost? If so then a "mere mortal" could potentially be the most versatile character in the game!
-
Because it seems appropriate to continue with the trio:
Name: Sam Axe
Aspects:
High Concept: Washed-Up Navy SEAL
Trouble: Never Leave A Man Behind
Other:
Has A Guy For Everything
Kept Man (Of Sorts)
Knows Spies
Reliable Man In A Tight Spot
Trying To Do The Right Thing
Skills:
Superb: Contacts,
Great: Deceit, Fists,
Good: Burglary, Endurance, Guns,
Fair: Alertness, Athletics, Discipline, Rapport,
Average: Conviction, Empathy, Presence, Resources, Scholarship,
Stunts:
Cat Burglar (Burglary)
Ear To The Ground (Contacts)
I Know Just The Guy (Contacts)
Document Forging (Deceit)
Takes One To Know One (Deceit)
Armed Arts: Knife, Bludgeon (Fists)
Footwork (Fists)
Target Rich Environment (Guns)
Total: -6 Refresh (Pure Mortal)
Stress:
Mental: OOO
Physical: OOOO
Social: OOO
Armor: Usually, none.
Notes: Sam rapidly raises Intimidation and Conviction to Good and Guns and Discipline to Great, as well as Stealth to Fair.
-
Name: Sam Axe
Aspects:
High Concept: Washed-Up Navy SEAL
Trouble: Never Leave A Man Behind
Other:
Has A Guy For Everything
Kept Man (Of Sorts)
Knows Spies
Reliable Man In A Tight Spot
Trying To Do The Right Thing
I think it's cool that you're writing up the Burn Notice crew, but I think you missed something here. Not a single aspect mentions booze or women...
-
I think it's cool that you're writing up the Burn Notice crew, but I think you missed something here. Not a single aspect mentions booze or women...
Booze is missing, but I figured women was covered under Kept Man (Of Sorts)
-
On the Burn Notice thing:
Awesome sauce! Burn Notice is great.
No Offense Deadman, but Michael Weston's Aspect, No One Will Return My Callsis 1) redundant with Burned Spy and 2) you're forgetting the other important part of his life currently.
I propose either: A) My Mom Would Have Made a Great NSA Communications Operative or B) Something with the word "Family"
Name: Fiona Glenanne
High Concept: Ex-IRA Bombmaker
Trouble: Michael's Old Flame
[b]Other Aspects:[/b]
"Back In Ireland"
Professional Femme-Fatale
Perfect American Accent
"Should we shoot them?"
Friends and Enemies Here and There
I'm too lazy to do Skills and Stunts at the moment.
Back on Topic (at least for a bit).
One of the things nnaysayers of Pure-mortals complain about is being unable to stand-up to the coolness of Were-forms, EoPs and Wizards or in a fight. THe thing about magic-users is that Magic is expensive. Yeah that Wizard can do a lot with magic, but that maigc is most of that character. Chances are that is all the supernatural characters can do.
The trick to Pure Mortals is finding what they can do that the supernatural characters can't. Martial Arts is one. Guns is another. But one main one that people overlook is social status. The Negotiatior, a character from my short-lived SPokane game before I moved to Seattle, was aPure-Mortal and probably the most dangerous of the bunch. HE was dangerous because of his 1) High SKills in COntacts and Resources(Marcone Rich and Connected) and 2) his Aspect Freeholding Lord which when used can derail an adventure faster than anything. Also, his social skills allowed him to destroy the opposition. The Town's White Court Mistress shuttered at his social ticks.
Authority can be a valuable tool. People underestimate how valuable a police officer in good standing hunting the supernatural is. Celebrity Detective Poe from the same game could get a lot of doors opened to him because he wasn't exiled to Siberia.
The last thing people overlook about Pure Mortals is Fate Points. Like...how many they have. Watch as you do those Hollywood style stunts every single round. Magic is great, but it doesn't compare to being able to fire 2 guns whilst jumping throw the air.
Dammit.... Next Character to post: Max Payne or Chow-Yun Fat from Hard-Boiled.
-
Wonder how Fate: Ahnk-Morpork will work?
I thought I'd give it a quick go, I've missed out a ton of stuff but things like the luggage are plot device rather than his powers :)
Name: Rincewind
Template: Pure Mortal
--Aspects--
High Concept: The Eternal Coward
Trouble: Favoured by The Lady
WIZZARD
Why is it always me?
Can run away from anything
The patter of tiny, scary feet.
I love a good potato!
That one spell...
--Skills--
Superb: Athletics,
Great: Endurance
Good: Lore
Fair: Contacts, Scholarship
Average: Stealth, Presence, Survival, Empathy
Stunts:
Fleet of Foot
Too Fast to Hit
Tireless
Go Native
A knack for languages - Rincewind is capable of communicating in any language... as long as he's only trying to say 'Aargh'
Total: -5 Refresh (Pure Mortal)
Stress:
Mental: OO
Physical: OOOO
Social: OOO
Armor: Wizzard hat and robe.
-
Sam Axe is missing a Chuck Finley aspect/stunt ;)
-
Yeah Sam needs the Aspect:
Its over by <place>, <adjective> Mojitos there!
Could be used to know where he is going, as he maps out locals by whats around resturants, bars, and liquor stores.
Could be compels to leave and go get a drink.
-
Character Name:Johnny "Round Eye"
High Concept: Top Gun in Shanghai
Trouble: Staying On Top
Aspects:
Colt Made them Equal, Ace Marksmen, Can't Walk Away From a Job,
Beware the Deadman Hand, Somethings are Sacred, Including Sinatra.
Skills: (35)
5 Guns
4 Contacts, Presence, Resources
3 Endurance, Investigation, Conviction
2 Fists, Athletics, Drive
1 Rapport, Crafts, Lore
Stunts: (12 refresh 10 stunts)
Colt made them Equal (See Way of the AK)(+1 to Guns with Colt designed Weapons)
Target Rich Environment
Shot on the Run
Fast Reload
Rain of Lead
Quick Draw
Lightening Hands
Snap Shot
Two Gun Joe
No Pain No gain
Fiery Orator
Teflon Persona
So yes if there are two of the enemy and he's using his standard guns this guy has an effective Guns of 7, and can use guns to defend, he can also use guns to determine initiative, and spend fate to pre-empt and another initiative to get a free action. He also can draw reload at no penalty etc etc. Also he make presence attack and defenses at skill 6, and armor 1 against social attacks.
Equipment:
Armor 2 (Could get armor 3 if you don't roll to bad)
2 Grizzly Mark V (Weapon 3) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAR_Grizzly_Win_Mag)
Extra Clips.
Hand tailored Suit.
2010 Porsche 911.
(Yeah the pistol things kinda a stretch the 1911 was originally a browning model but ya know, the logic holds)
But thats about 20 mins of thought and a little googling, if ya put some real time into it, I'm sure you can make something better, but believe me Mortal is Viable.
-
Stunts granting direct bonuses don't stack by defaul, so it's really only Guns 6 without powers. Presence also can't be used as a conventional defense, only as a Block.
Still, the basic principles are sound. Pure Mortals are quite capable of being frightening.
-
Stunts granting direct bonuses don't stack by defaul, so it's really only Guns 6 without powers. Presence also can't be used as a conventional defense, only as a Block.
Still, the basic principles are sound. Pure Mortals are quite capable of being frightening.
On the presence thing its listed in the book see YS page 380. /shrug
As to the stacking part, is there page number for that? Its not discussed anywhere that I can find.
In most game situational bonuses will apply if the situations in question applies.
-
On the presence thing its listed in the book see YS page 380. /shrug
It lists Attacks and Blocks. A Block and a defense are NOT the same thing. To start with a Block takes your standard action to do and applies to a specific person, as a rule.
As to the stacking part, is there page number for that? Its not discussed anywhere that I can find.
YS p. 148, first column, bottom paragraph. In italics.
In most game situational bonuses will apply if the situations in question applies.
Not going by the rules. And there are good balance reasons for that.
-
Ok that's all fair on the first two points. I agree. The rules do leave it open just at a "reduced" level on the third. So poor Johnny will just have to find another way to get that 2nd +1. ;)
-
Stunts tend to be a situational +2. Fate Points, when spent, are also +2 if you have an aspect. So unless you plan on using your Stunt more than once per session, probably don't have any aspect that applies (in which case you might want to rethink your stunt purchase), or will need the Stunt AND an invoked aspect to be effective, then buying Stunts is not a good idea. Just use the Fate Point instead; a flexible +2 is better than a fixed +2. Don't go crazy on stunts to just spend that refresh - just because you want a master gunslinger doesn't mean you need all the guns stunts.
Strategic use of Fate points is the most important part of having a huge net refresh. Scene Aspects can be much more useful for you than other people - anyone can get a tag on something, but most other characters can't really afford to repeatedly invoke things. Same thing for maneuvers. Especially when Compel or Invoke for Effect instead for a bonus/reroll, which generally can't be done via tag. As part of a group, you can compel your friends' aspects to transfer Fate Points to them, or invoke their aspects when they need a bonus. Compelling over invoking stuff for them is useful for giving them the ammo to resist other compels. Remember that Aspects, whether via maneuver, inherent, or consequences, basically just sit there unless someone spends a Fate Point to make them real. If you have a lot of Fate Points, you get to decide what's actually important. Emphasizing this part of the game in your character puts your guy in a more support role, but it does focus on the unique advantages to being a pure mortal that most other characters aren't going to have.
Note that huge guns, "sticky" aspects as part of equipment (rather dubious mechanically, IMO), etc don't especially help pure mortal characters - they don't have a monopoly on the use of stuff. Sure, you can make a Pure mortal Gunslinger with 10 points of stunts. OTOH, you could also be a Changeling and do the same things - but probably a lot more efficiently, since stunts aren't as good as powers. There's a part Sylph assassin in our game (as an NPC) with Superb Guns as well, but she has enough Speed to go Matrix where mortals go John Woo. Plus Wings (Flight + ranged attacks vs so many melee primary monsters = :D) and stuff.
Many powers don't provide advantages to more mental or social challenges - and non combat powers are often dependent on mundane skills to work. Powered characters can have those skills, yes. However, in terms of comparative advantage, mortal characters are often better off specializing in those areas.
And hitting monsters with a car is a pretty nice equalizer.
-
I will agree a high level mortal can hang with most things, what about a "foot in the water" mortal?
How well can one deal with supernatural nasties?
Sure a group of 4-5 mortals can take down a RCV, what what about 1 on 1?
-
Victim: What you say is true to an extent, but Skill Replacement stunts are almost always worth it (unless the skill you're replacing with another is already really high), and ones that give fairly common +1s to combat skills are eminently worth it if you're going to be making more than 5 or so attacks a session (which combat oriented characters will usually do).
Ravangames: One on one? They'll tend to die vs. Ghouls, Vampires, and most other serious supernatural monsters (as listed in the book anyhow) unless really combat optimized. But that's true of any character at Feet Wet, not just the Pure Mortals. This also depends alot on how prepared they are, as well as how combat oriented they are in general.
-
I appreciate what your saying on the topic of stunt +2 vs stunt add Victim . The math on that is pretty clear. Its possible to build stunts that do +3 to specific trapping for a fate points. I haven't made up one yet but its within the rules. My gunslinger designed was whipped up real quick just to show you can make a pretty BA mortal at fully submerged that could certainly dance with the best of them. The guns were put in b/c I just wanted something different from Desert Eagles. (Which seems to be the only hand Cannon people can find.)
Stunt Effect is certainly all about shifting around trappings, that example used guns for just about everything to do with combat, Initiative, attack and defense. It also used stunts from SoTC which a GM might very well not allow to transfer over. (I'm speaking of the interrupt stunt specifically.)
I'm sure there are better mortal build out there, but I'm still reasonably happy with it. A couple changes and i might play something similar to it someday.
Now on the low powered game, in the end this system centers around the Average. Dice should come up average, so what determines if you gonna win our not is what defense and offense skill are relative to what your fighting. If your skill limit puts you 2 level or more below what your fighting, your gonna lose, without a great deal of party support to keep enough aspects up on it. At 1 below to 1 above its an open field It depends on what else you have going on.
Team work is important, aspects can and should make or break a fight. But your table has to be both familiar with the system to make that happen, and be prepared cooperate as a team. There so much stuff that can be done in this system using blocks and aspects, you can punch well out side your refresh weight class if your group is smart. But if your group is new, or is not a bunch of team players, its not hard to get knocked out real quick.
-
Deagles are actually quite useless weapons. They are too heavy (both in recoil and weight) and just on par with revolvers in shot numbers.
If you are that stuck on big pistols get a:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3546/3363314127_ef5bb027fe_o.jpg)
or something similar. Thats a Ruger Alaskan in .454 casull (3rd largest pistol cartridge in production) btw.
Or simply don't be an idiot and get a sturdy 9mm and some speciality ammo like steel, hollow point, light load, home defence rounds with beads of things like garlic oil, rock salt, silver nitrate, holy/blessed water and such.
Quiter (due to subsonic rounds), more controllable, rapid firing and still deadly.
-
Because it seems appropriate to continue with the trio:
By any chance have you gotten around to stating up Fiona Glenanne?
-
Pure mortals don't need fancy guns to be effective (they do help though).
I played in a game yesterday as a pure mortal and I didn't use a gun once (in fact, having a gun for the majority of the scenario would've been bad when we were picked up by the cops).
In fact, cars are superior weapons to guns. You have doors, front and rear bumpers...
In some ways Pure Mortals are more capable than any other character (except maybe thaumaturgists). Many supernatural characters start to spend all their refresh on combat (exception is a few psychic powers). Mortals have more refresh, so more fate points. After sitting at a table that had guys who start at 1 or 2 points and being a guy with 5, I was spending points without really worrying about it while other guys had to pinch their own.
-
I agree about mortals and about the fate points in general. It has taken me several sessions to get the importance of fate points across to my players as out of the starting 10 refresh the lowest that was spent was 7. Since most of them didn't have many points to use in-game (coming from other systems, we were all conditioned to spend every point you are given) I started giving 2 fate points above their refresh rate at the beginning of each session with the requirement that they had to spend those two points before the session was done. The simple fact of having something that would be lost if they didn't use it kinda pushed them into some interesting ways to use the points (I've got them through Invokes and Declarations, but haven't got them using assessments yet). Heck there were a few times that I had to stop rp and figure out the results of the inventive stuff they came up with.
After realizing how useful they are, I allowed a few players to rework their characters a bit to give them more refresh and each of them is using at least 1, and sometimes all, of their fate each session now. Having got the hang of it I don't give the "free" fate points at the beginning of the session and after the last milestone that raised the refresh by a point, none of them bought new powers or stunts, fully planning to get their fate pools bigger.
-
I agree that cars are very effective weapons, however along that line of thinking i feel it should also be pointed out, cars while mobile are not very portable. Most fights in our games seem to take place in buildings, the never-never, the capital, dark allies, or the subway. All locations that are very difficult to bring your car into. Also I suspect somewhere along those lines a GM who get sick of seeing his Big bad, Road Pizza'd for the 2nd time, is going look up what happens when a Car runs into a moose or other large critter. Modern safety features are very good, but there only do so much.
-
How about this:
"Way of the Hand Cannon" (+1 guns with any sidearm of .50 caliber or higher)
"Dual Wield" (for guns, not weapons)
"Quick Aim" (you may aim as a supplemental action)
"Deadeye Shot" (if you hit in an aimed shot, you may ignore up to 2 armor)
So you can go in dual-wielding Desert Eagles that can down a ghoul in a single shot.
-
And finishing out the trio (because some people care):
Name: Fiona Glennane
Aspects:
High Concept: Ex-IRA Operative
Trouble: Michael's Old Flame
Other:
"Back In Ireland"
Professional Femme-Fatale
Soft Spot For The Innocent And Abused
"Should We Shoot Them?"
Friends and Enemies Here and There
Skills:
Superb: Guns,
Great: Athletics, Deceit, Craftsmanship,
Good: Alertness, Burglary, Fists
Fair: Contacts, Driving, Investigation,
Average: Conviction, Endurance, Presence,
Stunts:
Cat Burglar (Burglary)
Demolitions Training (Craftsmanship)
Pick-Pocket (Deceit)
Takes One To Know One (Deceit)
Armed Arts: Knife, Bludgeon (Fists)
Pin Them Down (Guns)
Target Rich Environment (Guns)
Linguist (Scholarship)
Total: -6 Refresh (Pure Mortal)
Stress:
Mental: OOO
Physical: OOO
Social: OOO
Armor: Usually, none.
Note: She rapidly piles up Significant Milestones, grabbing Scholarship, Discipline, and Resources at Average, and Rapport and Stealth at Fair quite quickly.
Aspects primarily courtesy of Lanodantheon.
-
I didn't realize anybody had statted up the Burn Notice crew until I stumbled into this thread. This is perfect for a Miami-centric game I'm running on another site (I've got Michael, Sam and Fiona clones, although rather they're a half-demon, a changeling and a merman, respectively). Thanks for the write-up!
-
Thanx Deadmanwalking, I really appreciate it. Am going to print out the the Burn Notice characters and, when me and my friends watch the show this Thursday, I'll have them point out what skills/stunts/aspects of the trio are being used to pour out the awesome-sauce. :D
-
Belial, that is so wrong on so many levels...
First, except a couple of stances like Macedonian, dual wielding is completely useless. Even such stances only allow you to put down supression fire using handguns in short ranges (up to 5-6 meters at most), slightly better than spray and pray but not really effective if you are trying to take down some ones.
The Way of the Handcannon... There is a reason why 9mm and 45 acp are the most used pistol calibers in the world. They deliver a nice balance between stopping power, recoil and clip size. Sure if you have inhuman strenght you can use beigger caliber weapons as normal pistols but for normal humans, you need to slow down and spend more time on correcting recoil when you use a handcannon.
-
Nomad, this is a Role Playing game, nobody is going to not make a duel wielding pistol user just because it is impractical in real life because this isn't real life.
-
I know, I know but I do know a bit about guns in general and such stupid, showy hollywood stuff makes my "correction nazi" wake up ;D
-
Nomad, this is a Role Playing game, nobody is going to not make a duel wielding pistol user just because it is impractical in real life because this isn't real life.
They would in my gaming group. Between a reenactor who fights with live steel who was an army ranger, a medic who did a tour in Iraq, computer tech who is also a competition pistol shooter, a psychologist, a musician, a corrections officer who farms and hunts; we've got quite a few bases covered in my gaming group when it comes to what is or isn't impractical in real life and none of us are shy about calling "Bullsh*t" when something just wouldn't work. We consider realism important in maintaining our suspension of disbelief. We'd no more allow a mortal to duel wield pistols at separate targets than we'd allow a mortal to revive someone after an autopsy.
-
I personally can't stand realism, whether it's in books, movies, computer games or roleplaying. In my opinion a good story shouldn't be spoilt by physics or whatever. My personal pet hate is realism in computer games: games need to be balanced to be fun, real life isn't balanced; however the same applies to any form of media.
Of course, good stories aren't ridiculous either and carrying around anti-tank weaponry as if it's a pistol is silly. However quibbling over minor details just drives me crazy. Things like movie-style hacking skills, stunts etc are just fun :)
-
They would in my gaming group. Between a reenactor who fights with live steel who was an army ranger, a medic who did a tour in Iraq, computer tech who is also a competition pistol shooter, a psychologist, a musician, a corrections officer who farms and hunts; we've got quite a few bases covered in my gaming group when it comes to what is or isn't impractical in real life and none of us are shy about calling "Bullsh*t" when something just wouldn't work. We consider realism important in maintaining our suspension of disbelief. We'd no more allow a mortal to duel wield pistols at separate targets than we'd allow a mortal to revive someone after an autopsy.
Yeah, I was in 7th Group and you can be damn sure my guy is shooting three pistols at the same time like a crazy juggler. It's a game. If I wanted realism, I'd re-up and head back to Afghanistan.
I mean, I'm standing next to a guy who eats blood and uses it to fuel throwing a car.
-
;D
Yes, it's the different tastes issue. There isn't any "right" aswer. Still "I" would rule that those guys can and a mortal can't becouse he is a "mortal" he is supposed to be the baseline after all.
-
I don't know if even the pure mortal is what you'd call 'baseline'.
Feet in the Water (6 refresh, 20 skill points, skill cap at Great): At this level you are just getting started with your supernatural life. Highly customizable templates aren’t going to be able to add much, so this is really the “enhanced mortal” game—you can do stuff that even the best of humanity cannot (but only barely).
Bear in mind that 'Good' level skills are for people that are professional in something. Great is for absolute experts and Superb is for olympic level skills. Our characters are often experts in two different things, perhaps even olympic level! Combine that with the stunts and even the basic pure mortal characters that we play are extremely impressive.
Still, as you say, we all have different tastes. My taste is that I wouldn't ever limit what a character can do because I personally couldn't do it myself... if I did the games would suck a lot :P
(Though I am an Olympic level Connect-4 player).
-
My personal pet hate is realism in computer games: games need to be balanced to be fun, real life isn't balanced; however the same applies to any form of media.
I game to have fun. Balance or real doesn't matter. Realistic games can be fun. Balanced games can be fun, it doesn't mean games need to be balanced to be fun. It applies to all games.
-
The question of the thread wasn't is the system balance concerning mortals. It was are mortals Viable. I agree that trying to have high level of realism in a game where Magic is a Central theme is a little too much to ask. But gritty is also a theme of the Dresden files, and is one that should be payed attention to. Every gaming group is different, and it is important to do what is right for the game your in. Mortals are viable. Are they as "powerful" as other concepts? No. Its very hard to compete with a power that is specifically tagged to make the Impossible, Possible.
But that does not mean that Mortals can't show up and rock faces. Mortal have basically no limiters, they are versatile, and there are a LOT of them. So its true that 1v1 most mortal aren't really a match (And there are plenty of exceptions). But lets face it resources and contacts are skills in this game, and so there is nothing wrong with using them. Can't kill the local black court yourself? How about calling Monoc and see if they are willing to take that contract? Or perhaps you know "Just the Guy", who can get you in contact with that break away group of ex-spetsnaz. A Million buck in brief case later you can get some serious stuff done.
-
But gritty is also a theme of the Dresden files, and is one that should be payed attention to.
Is that gritty theme Word of Jim?
-
Is that gritty theme Word of Jim?
If you have read the books, and don't think its a gritty noir series, then I wonder if we are really reading the same books.
-
Gritty? Dresden? :D
Over the top action, but not gritty. Not by a long shot.
-
Yeah, the premise is those Raymond Carver books, but that's not what they are. And they keep getting further and further away from that, and all for the better.
-
Dresden is pretty far from dark and gritty. It has its dark moments, but at the end of the day, it's about good triumphing over evil.
Realism in games is a pet peeve of mine. I'd personally prefer a game that tries to emulate a particular genre of story rather than keep things as close to reality as possible. That's why mortals can stand side by side with wizards and holy knights. Not because it's realistic, but because it's fun to see an underdog struggle to win and come out on top.
-
I thimk most people misunderstand the "jack of all trades" aspect of pure mortals. A JoaT character will never be able to hold his ground against specilised chars (Like Bard the seventh character in 6 man group in DnD).
The Humans in DV are jack of all trades because they can specialise in anything, not because they can do it all at the same time. Your average supernatural will try to clean a vamp den with fire and shotguns. Your average mortal will call in support that can range from a SWAT team to a platoon to an airstrike. (Side Note: Why do you think Militaries around the world are so insistent on heavy caliber tank guns and precision bombs? The fact that they can kill other tanks is a side benefit.) to act as bug exterminators armed with holy water and shotguns. (Shotguns rule! Disclaimer: Only in close quarters and up to 10 meters)
-
Personally, I'd say as far as theme goes, Dresden is gritty up through the first three, mystery oriented for the next three, and wizardly action pretty much past that. Dead Beat with it's change in feel was were I thought the tone changed to what it is now, supernatural spellslinging and stuff.
-
(Shotguns rule! Disclaimer: Only in close quarters and up to 10 meters)
Over 15 meters or so, switch to slugs.
-
I wonder how hard it would be to make a military character. Someone in field testing that can get hold of flechettes and dragonskin and other high tech stuff legally :D
-
I wonder how hard it would be to make a military character. Someone in field testing that can get hold of flechettes and dragonskin and other high tech stuff legally :D
You could make the character from the any of the federal law enforcement/security agencies. If you are playing a character from the US, I would suggest a Secret Service agent. Those guys should have access to best equipment in the US, afterall they are the ones protecting the President. (If I remember correctly, there is legislation that allows them to demand tech from any branch of the federal government.)
What I think would be difficult is to make a pure mortal character in a country where privately owned firearms are rare/legal like Japan.
-
I have something to add to the realism debate. I think when the word "gritty" is used, it is not referring to a dark, cynical point of view. Rather, it is referring to a sense of realism, the feeling that you're actually there in the story. "Gritty" stories are the ones where you're told all about how the hero's feet are sore, intimate areas are chafing, he's dirty and sweaty and aching and tired. In other words, stories where the character has the same problems you would if you stood in a rainy alley for six hours on a stakeout. Stories that aren't gritty would be ones like many of the Silver Age DC comic books, where the dirty details are glossed over in the name of a care-free, fun, purely escapist environment.
But, realizing what people are trying to say when they say gritty, I think we can begin to understand the argument being made here. We are regaled over and over again with how Harry has the some problems as the rest of us. He's often broke. He has trouble managing his schedule. His car never works right, he always has plumbing problems, and he never seems to have enough money or time to fix these issues. In that sense, the series is extremely gritty, and I believe that Butcher applies it to combat rules as well.
Now, understand me here. I'm not saying that my arguments are "Word of Jim." I'm simply sharing the conclusions that I as one individual reader of the Dresden Files series came to, and yours might be different. But as I read the books, I sense that Butcher is very big on following the rules. Rules of physics, rules of how guns work, rules of how cars move and what damage the body REALLY takes when somebody punches you in the head. Murphy is still bound by the real-world consequences of a no-call, no-show at work when she helps Harry out. He also, if you read closely, establishes very firm rules for the wild supernatural stuff. Magic follows strict rules. Supernatural creatures all have things that they can and cannot do. No fae can touch iron, for example, not even the Mothers themselves.
Butcher applies that to guns as well. Harry has never fired more than six shots in a row from his .44 without reloading. Many times throughout the books there are specific mention of how a gun actually works versus how Hollywood and popular culture THINK it works. See the description of how sawed-off shotguns work in . . . White Knight, I believe, or the description of how silenced gunshots are still pretty damn loud in (this one I'm absolutely positive of) Death Masks. Furthermore, we never see, for example, Hendricks using the minigun from Gard's chopper as a man-portable weapon, because it's totally impossible for a creature of human mass to do something like that, regardless of how strong. Butcher has added new rules to his world, because that world contains things that do not exist in ours. But he never flagrantly breaks the already established rules of our world, and he keeps the new rules of his world consistent to each other.
To sum up, the Dresden Files is a very realistic series. Everything in it that is NOT supernatural strictly adheres to real-world limits, and therefore a GM would be very justified in stopping his Pure Mortal player from dual-wielding Desert Eagles.
-
The problem with realism isn't the balance of powers and skills against one another. That's about right with a lot of games. The problem of realism is really about the fact that when it comes to people...some are just better than others, by default.
Some people are good or ok at some things, or awesome at one or two things talent-wise.
Some people are fantastic at everything.
Some people suck at everything.
That's life...survival of the fittest. The adaptable and exceptionally talented survive, the rest perish.
That's why realism in games is bad. Incorporating mechanics that properly model physical laws isn't a bad thing at all...difficult, but not a bad thing. Properly accounting for the chasm of raw capability between any two people is where the breakdown really occurs. Most people are the "suck at everything" variety...though a sizable percentage are the "ok at some things" type. A few are awesome at one or two things...and only a tiny tiny few are great at everything (say maybe a few thousand). So, between the mechanical issues of incorporating a system that offers that range for what amounts in the game to no reason at all; and the rampant fear of inadequacy that permeates modern society in the form of "equality" and the misguided and wholly incorrect notion that anyone can do anything...such a realistic feature is never included in any game. I don't agree with the second cause at all, but the former reason is eminently practical...because such a model just wouldn't contribute anything worthwhile to an interactive entertainment medium.