ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Nomad on July 05, 2010, 06:37:06 AM
-
I was reading Small Favor (again) in the weekend and Lucios intrest in Computers made me think about it. Is it possible to "ward" a computer against increased murphionic effects?
The basic fact is simple:
Anything that is more advanced than ww2 tech is going to get borked around a wizard.
The advanced facts are not so different:(Courtesy of Waldo Butters)
A Wizards body generates an steady low grade electric/magnetic fied
When a wizard is agitated, he subconciously leaks magic,
Solid State electronics, which are delicate against power surges, rough handling plus rogue magic leaks equals smoke.
A simple circle ward stops free magic and low grade attacks (and supernatural creatures like small fae, ghosts, zombies, spectres. Essentially anything without free will or heavy in power scale)
So the simple answer is yes. Just put a laptop and a big self contained power source in a circle (Just like Mr Butters using a GPS device in Dead Beat). If the laptop has voice activation/command software then you can even use it from outside the circle.
But that is not the real deal. When we talk about computers these days, we don't just mean the "office" capabilities in the box. We are talking about the internet access. The whole deal.
So can we make a computer with internet access and keyboard / mouse support usable by wizards?
My answer is, it is probable. The most difficult problem is the most simple, can you make a simple circle ward with access points (2 circular magically inert "stone" disks that are covered with a very light permeable to certain substances (copper and whatever keyboard and mouse's strings will be) ward.)
Put the electrical opening as far away from the user as possible. Preferably a floor down so that you have solid (stone? concrete?) wall between you and that access point. Insulate the wires with passive anti-magic, Configure the ward on this stone circle to feed from the wires. If you can balance it properly (Molly not Harry) the wards will be eating the a small part of the current on normal use (a bit data loss on phone/dsl I guess) and in case of a surge, eat the excess. Add a couple of surge protectors and a ups or 2 and that part will be ok.
The input end is a bit trickier. The keyboard will probably resemble a typewriter instead of a modern keyboard and the mouse will be a mechanichal trackball instead of a ball mouse. The input will be carried to the access points via strings (of some inert substance. Fishing line maybe?) which will be converted to normal input inside the main ward.
The ward on this access point is trickier. Imagine 3 layers, the innermost layer is a grounding ward that eats/vacuums very small amounts of magic on the inside (computer side) and passes it to the middle ward, the middle ward is designed to repel magic on the outside and the outermost ward is again designed to eat the ambient magic (this one is much stronger than the inner one) to fuel the wards.
Add a camera and an optical mouse inside the circle. The camera and its software reads the typwriter(which is outside)'s input (something like http://www.scalesgalore.com/global/images/product_2/167/16779_250X250.jpg (http://www.scalesgalore.com/global/images/product_2/167/16779_250X250.jpg)) and the optical mouse uses a moving surface connected to the track-ball as mouse pad (keep the mouse fixed and move the mousepad so to speak)
What do you think? Would this be possible?
-
I think technology could be created to handle what wizards do. Of course, wizards are hidden, so little research goes into that. Still, I'd think computers designed to withstand the EMP of a nuke could probably be safe for a wizard to use with maybe some extra precautions thrown in.
That said, here's how I'd do it with a warding circle:
Wireless keyboard and mouse, no batteries. A camera on the computer reads hand movements and translates that into keypresses and the like. One could probably design a more custom mechanic system than this that makes the camera reading easier though (or perhaps even a magic device that outputs light of proper intensity and color combinations that correspond to key presses). Rather complicated magical device, but if little chicago is possible, a keyboard and mouse are too. Again though, a camera would work pretty well (especially with a mirror so that it is focused over the hands).
-
That (The camera to read the input) is a brilliant idea. Add an optic mouse inside the ward, it's laser aimed to a movebable surface outside the circle, one that moves as you use the track-ball. (Keep the mouse stationary and move the mousepad so to speak). This way you wont even need an access port near the user wizard!.
-
There was a company in the early 1990s that developed a virtual keyboard, it projected a keyboard onto a surface (like a table) with a laser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKmQoS8oGY
Just put the computer and keyboard projector in a magic circle and you'd never have to worry about hexing it by accident.
-
You would have to worry about the damage you're doing to your fingers though, at least until you learn not to depress the "keys".
-
Dummy keyboard?
-
Add a camera and an optical mouse inside the circle. The camera and its software reads the typwriter(which is outside)'s input (something like http://www.scalesgalore.com/global/images/product_2/167/16779_250X250.jpg (http://www.scalesgalore.com/global/images/product_2/167/16779_250X250.jpg)) and the optical mouse uses a moving surface connected to the track-ball as mouse pad (keep the mouse fixed and move the mousepad so to speak)
What do you think? Would this be possible?
It's a very complicated and delicate system, given its advanced nature. It may work in the short-term, but I don't think it would last long.
Now, Harry used a suppression spell when he went on the Larry Fowler show. It didn't turn out well...but he was under a lot of stress, and it's not an area of specialization for him. I think a young wizard who specialized in suppression spells would have the best chance of using technology normally. Use a big screen monitor and long cords for the keyboard and mouse so you can sit as far away as possible from the actual computer (which will be the most sensitive to magic).
-
Another option would be to have someone build you a wizard friendly dumb terminal (that emulated a VT100, for example) which you could hook up to a more modern computer that was physically located much farther away. That way, even if the terminal breaks, hopefully the actual computer will be protected from the damage, and the terminal is much easier to repair or replace. This would give plenty of advantages to things like library sorting, searching, etc a department in which wizards seem to be sorely lacking.
-
Fedifensor: You are missing the point. The simple circle ward stops all ambient and most of the direct magical energies . Remember how Mr. Butters was able to use a GPS in the middle of a huge magical storm.
If you put the electronics inside such a ward, and set up an optical or mechanichal input system immune to murphionic fields, no magical effect should hit the hardware (until sunrise?).
-
Fedifensor: You are missing the point. The simple circle ward stops all ambient and most of the direct magical energies . Remember how Mr. Butters was able to use a GPS in the middle of a huge magical storm.
If you put the electronics inside such a ward, and set up an optical or mechanichal input system immune to murphionic fields, no magical effect should hit the hardware (until sunrise?).
The circle allowed short-duration uses of complex technology in the books. However, eventually one of the following things will happen:
* The circle will accidentally be broken while the technology is in use.
* The magical energies will be strong enough to damage the tech even when it's turned off - the circle will come down eventually.
* The circle won't be powerful enough to completely stop the magical energies in the area (due to a bad roll, or the GM compelling one of your aspects).
As a GM, I would consider two factors when a wizard wants to use technology. How much time and effort did the wizard put into overcoming that limitation? Is it completely bypassing the inherent limitation of magic (and thus sidelining the Pure Mortal)? I would be more lenient to a character who invested in Refinements specifically for this purpose than one whose total investment is a point or two of Resources and the creation of a single ward.
-
It may very well be impossible to use circles in the way you describe them, sadly we have no evidence about that. My guess is that the act of will that allows you to break a circle by throwing a pebble through one will apply equally well to using a wireless device to affect something outside the circle. Its an act of will having a tangible effect cross through the circle, thus breaking it.
-
Coming from last to first;
-I think basic circle is strong enough, it was enough to shield butters from the spectres in DB. I am only aiming to negate the accidental discharges and natural (for wizards) static, not fireballs and tech-hexes.
-Yes there will be natural reset points but I think an active multi layered (light) ward construct on top of the basic circle would be enough to vacuum the ambient magic, shield the construct and give you (ambient) magic free space to reset the circle without too much static.
-I know this will sound overkill but remember the (destroyed) triple ward from the Fool Moon. I think a much weaker version would be enough to deal with an occasional anger burst or a fallen book.
Luminos: Hmm that may be true. I wonder if one could make a ward with gates in it? Then again Mr Butter did use a wireless/cell phone based device in a circle without breaking it...
-
Luminos: Hmm that may be true. I wonder if one could make a ward with gates in it? Then again Mr Butter did use a wireless/cell phone based device in a circle without breaking it...
Yes, but Butters isn't a wizard. He was IN the circle being shielded from the magical energies, not his own inherent magical energies interfering with the cell/cordless phone.
Personally (and I have) said that I wouldn't allow a wizard to use technology on a long term basis. It takes away one of the inherent disadvantages that wizards suffer.
-
Wizards generating an advanced electromagnetic field is something Butters is guessing at. It is not an established canon fact. You want to make it so in your games, that's rad, but the canon actually leans against that theory, considering how an automatic with almost no vulnerability to electromagnetic fields (for example) can jam around a tense Wizard.
-
That said, here's how I'd do it with a warding circle
My own feeling was that knowing humans have the Internet maybe powerful Wizards have a Spectral Net that uses either crystal balls or similar devices and "Bobs" (either TV "Ghost in the Skull" versions or tethered Air Spirits) to create information relays and storage. Been thinking on that ever since I first saw the TV show (read the books afterwards and thought maybe sprite type faes as "messengers" and such).
-
Wizards generating an advanced electromagnetic field is something Butters is guessing at. It is not an established canon fact. You want to make it so in your games, that's rad, but the canon actually leans against that theory, considering how an automatic with almost no vulnerability to electromagnetic fields (for example) can jam around a tense Wizard.
Have we actually seen a gun jam because of a tense wizard?
I mean that there are times where Harry is in a very tense situation and yet in those scenarios, automatic weapons are still functional.
-
The laser keyboard idea is neat. I like it. Thought I think the optical mouse would laugh a you in death before you even drew the circle.
I've also been a fan of using older front ends from the 1960's (the green displays) or rigging up an analog mouse using mechanical devices. and a projector mounted on a high ceiling.or from another room or 3 using a collection of low-tech lenses so the high-tech is as far away from the wizard as possible.
THe big problem with a wizard using a computer is the first thing about computers everyone overlooks: How does he turn it on?
Voice actuation and the optical keyboard thingies both kill response times. You couldn't game online for example. You also couldn't use and other peripherals like scanners, printers or good speakers without an assistant.
My thoughts on how a Wizard could use a keyboard and mouse goes back a few years since I started reading the series. I came up with 2 solutions and only 1 of which I would have faith in(though not for long periods.
1) Water
Water grounds out magic. My first thought would be to immerse the wizard in water(use a waterproof mouse and keyboard and it should block the field. Though, I never figured out outside of a rube goldberg machine how the hell he would turn it on.
My other solution is the one I personally stand by as the best way, but it would be an unholy b**** to make, maintain and test.
2) Reverse Radiation Suit.
Make your own radiation suit-like apparel (must be completely self-contained) out of whatever. Put it on. Design it so that when you put it on it make a circle seal like the one Butters did that covers the whole suit. Making it with bits of metal it would probably be easy as hell magically speaking especially if the metal circle bits fit perfectly together. The seal has to be perfect though, so whatever the materials the whole rig would be like an old diving suit.
Whammy! Your Murphonic Field is stopped could by a magic circle that you wear.
Problems/Concerns:
A) Visibility. You would be hard-pressed to see out of it, even if you used a motorcycle helmet as a base.
B) Comfort. It would be like wearing an old fashioned deep-sea diving suit so you'd need to make sure it was cofortable to wear if you wanted to get any real work done over many hours at a keyboard.
C) Heat & Air. Unless you worked up a low tech cooling and oxygen replacement unit, you're in a sealed container. The idea is to keep maigc in so the suit has to be sealed. I guess you could make air holes and not break any circles, maybe but a sealed suit is ideal. I recommend go with the diving suit idea and have an old pump and hose attached to it to recycle air and take away heat with freon.
D) Sweat. Related to Heat & Air, you would sweat like made in that thing and it is nasty when you wear Latex gloves for too long in heat, imagin a whole suit.
But, you would for all that crap be able to continue turning on the computer, use all modern, unmodified components and peripherals and be able to make use of a keyboard and mouse. BUt if you took the suit off or if it got damaged...*PUff* *Blue Smoke of doom*
-
BigMrE: I think you misunderstood, Im trying to put the computer in the circle and the wizard outside it (so theoratically the optical mouse wouldn't bork)
Butters being able to use GPS inside the circle means (at least as far as I understand it) that if you don't have an active source in the circle (like a wizard), it will continue working like a normal mortals machine.
-
1) Water
Water grounds out magic. My first thought would be to immerse the wizard in water(use a waterproof mouse and keyboard and it should block the field. Though, I never figured out outside of a rube goldberg machine how the hell he would turn it on.
Computers can work inside of oil (current ones appear to be mineral oil but I swear I heard cooking oil in the past ... do a search and you will also get pictures :) )
So, if the computer is sealed in oil and both the computer and Wizard are located underwater (preferably in running water, like a swim tank or such) then as long as the power in is shielded as well the computer should be fine.
:D
-
My own feeling was that knowing humans have the Internet maybe powerful Wizards have a Spectral Net that uses either crystal balls or similar devices and "Bobs" (either TV "Ghost in the Skull" versions or tethered Air Spirits) to create information relays and storage. Been thinking on that ever since I first saw the TV show (read the books afterwards and thought maybe sprite type faes as "messengers" and such).
Hmm ... you know, Ivy would probably make the perfect server.
-
Have we actually seen a gun jam because of a tense wizard?
I mean that there are times where Harry is in a very tense situation and yet in those scenarios, automatic weapons are still functional.
I don't know about onscreen, but we are repeatedly told by Harry that it can and does happen.
-
SF at the lake house, the Beckitt's guns jam... though there certainly was more magic flying around than from "a wizard in a tense situation"
-
There is an other scene in SmF i think, where the assault riffle of one of nicodemuses minions has a malfunction.
-
I like the idea of the computer in a circle, but I agree with other posters that it isn't a perfect solution.
But what I don't get is why Harry doesn't put his shower in a circle. All he has to do is have the shower tray, or the water heater, in a circle and he gets hot showers. And if the circle goes, he doesn't lose data, or fry the hard drive the way he would with a computer. He'd probably just have to reset or change the fuse.
Unless, does the shower count as running water? Because it's stated that he'd need a stream to ground magic in the past, which is a bit bigger than the shower.
Even if it did, Molly could circle the heater while Harry was in the shower. That'd work. I think.
-
I think the reason Harry doesn't have a water heater is fairly straightforward: When something goes wrong with a computer, it goes *fizzttzz*. When something goes wrong with a hot water tank, it goes *BOOM*.
James
-
Question:
Why not make a magical computer?
Fact 1: non-mortal magical beings don't adversely affect technology.
Fact 2: spiritual beings can possess objects
Fact 3: such beings can move the object they possess - to a point.
Fact 4: a few such beings are capable of much faster thought processing than humans
So, here's how it works:
Step 1: Buy a computer and have it delivered to your house
Step 2: Set up old telephone and power landlines. Those go back to the 1800s so accidental hexing won't mess them.
Step 3: Make a circle around your house. Use up all the magical energy inside.
Step 4: Unpack and install your new computer. No energy = no hexing.
Step 5: Make a second, heavy-duty circle around your new computer after you shut it down and erase the first circle. This circle should also stop physical stuff.
Step 6: Summon a spirit of intellect into the circle - have it possess the computer.
Step 7: Set up a dummy keyboard and mouse (unpowered) outside the circle but where the spirit-possessed PC can see them.
Step 8: Have the spirit press the power button and depress whatever keys you press on the dummy keyboard as well as move the mouse like you move the dummy mouse. Enjoy your new magically protected, very intelligent PC.
Step 9: Make sure your spirit of intellect is not using the PC to perform illegal acts on the internet while you're not looking.
Steps 10-100000: Check that Step 9 is followed.
-
The RPG book mention that it's about belief, and I think that is best explanation for why it won't work in general. That the wizard has to believe that it's going to work without *any* doubt. Now how many of you can tell me exactly how every aspect of a computer works, down the each nanometer transistors works? Especially considering 45nm manufacture has issues with "quantum leakage" (aka, switch is off, but still leaks electricity). Do you know how atoms work? Or subatomics? Let alone, do you know how a comparatively simple device such as a car engine works?
Personally, I've fealt that the "murphy's law field" is a poor answer. It's more that magic is a wizard exerting his will over the world, and the "hexing aura" is his subconsciousness expression of it. Which is why when big magic is happening, more things go BOOOM. The older the wizard, the less familiarity with "technology", the quicker things go wrong.
Which means even a circle will cause issues as it *is* a magical construct.
Personally, from a story standpoint, using the internet, or computers feels wrong... and lazy. What's the point of having a magical community if all you ever do is sit on the computer (yes, I note the irony in the statement)? That's the point of summoning spirits and demons and other creatures of the Nevernever. More flavor for the game. That, and you'd almost *never* need thaumaturgy!
That being said, magic circle, Windows, speech recognition. It works GREAT. I use it at home all the time. Works great. Though, you'd want to pick up that extended warranty, and that's not a "just in case". that's a "for when it happens". :)