no i mean like human with a soul
no i mean like human with a soul
no i mean like human with a soulI'm pretty sure that's not possible.
does anyone have any ideas on how to save a black court vampire and turn them back?Swim against the streams of time and prevent them from being tuned?
Swim against the streams of time and prevent them from being tuned?
Kill them, and bring them back to life as a human?
Get an Elder god from beyond to transform them into something closer?
Mind-swap them into a normal human body?
Bear in mind all of those things will more than likely end up with a characters head on the proverbial chopping block.
There is a little bit of insight given in the short story with with Druila?, Dresden, his brother, and the brownies in the mall. From that one it seems like she came out of the transformation pretty much intact mentally, except for her high on power and revenge thing, which easly could be from the fact that she could finally strike back at life.....
Once that is figured out, reversing it should be a smidge easier. A huge thaumaturgy ritual with steps representing the creation of the BCV(blampire) in reverse?
When I see questions like this I mentally rephrase them to "How do you change a template's core concept?".
How are Blampires made?
According to Mother Winter, hercan undo literally any enchantment or transformation. She is the unmaker, after all. Sure, she never comes out and says as much, but when Harry says those exact words she responds with a yes.(click to show/hide)
According to Mother Winter, hercan undo literally any enchantment or transformation. She is the unmaker, after all. Sure, she never comes out and says as much, but when Harry says those exact words she responds with a yes.(click to show/hide)
According to Mother Winter, hercan undo literally any enchantment or transformation. She is the unmaker, after all. Sure, she never comes out and says as much, but when Harry says those exact words she responds with a yes.(click to show/hide)
That is a good question and it can't be simple, regardless of how "easy" they are to supposedly dispatch by vanilla humans, if making more Bampires were easy, they could overrun whole towns, breed armies in a night....
Granted... Drulinda did raise both rentacops within a radically short time period, so it's possible it is very easy, little more than drinking a human dry and letting the body get back up as a Bampire. The low numbers could simply be that smart Bampires don't allow too many of thier victim's to raise, to keep their whereabouts more subtle and to reduce the competition.
But simplecreation does not indicate it would be simple to undo.
Ummm. . . black court vampires are actually dead-dead people. They're not just twisted demons like the RCV are.
Not only would you have to somehow get rid of the taint and evil from a BCV, but you'd have to reanimate their dead corpse as well.
Yeah.. Not gonna happen.
Okay, two-step process. Purge the evil, get a resurrection. Given that this isn't what you'd call a cinematic resurrection - lost love, the character who gave his life to "hold them off", et cetera - it shouldn't be terribly difficult. Maybe the nature of becoming a BCV kicks their soul out early with nowhere to go, and it's as simple as restoring the soul to the body, reanimating the fallen with the time they have left as if they'd never been turned.
The thread title is a "How do I do this?". "You don't" isn't a very helpful answer, despite about half the replies here. Pretty much every book in the series has at least a few impossible events occur; in Changes, he answers the questionand in the upcoming Ghost Story it looks like(click to show/hide). There's no reason the short arcs of someone's game can't do the same, especially when there isn't even a canon barrier against it working in the worst place.(click to show/hide)
4. What about all the evil the BCV has done? This is not Angel. If someone were a BCV and did all those terrible things, including make renfields, those memories would drive them insane if they became mortal again. They could very well become a predator of another sort.
5. If BCVs could be changed back, so could renfields - which would cause all of these moral issues with renfields as well.
It's a can of worms that I personally would not open up.
The problem is that being able to turn a BCV "back" has several problems with the principal.
1. How can a good character with a pure heart kill even a monster like a BCV if they know they are just a victim and can be turned back?
2. It really cheapens the monster. Sure, Harry did an "impossible" thing with the red court, but he did not redeem them. There is a big difference between reforming a rabid dog and putting it down.
3. What if the BCV does not want to change back? What if it likes its existence and likes being at the top of the food chain. If that is the case, what right do you have to change them? Kill them, sure - you have the right to self defense and the preservation of other human lives, but to irrevocably change something into something else is against the laws of magic for a reason.
4. What about all the evil the BCV has done? This is not Angel. If someone were a BCV and did all those terrible things, including make renfields, those memories would drive them insane if they became mortal again. They could very well become a predator of another sort.
5. If BCVs could be changed back, so could renfields - which would cause all of these moral issues with renfields as well.
It's a can of worms that I personally would not open up. Sure, I am sure that some creature out in the DV /could/ do it, but at what cost?
Why would they remember? The body is dead, the mind is no longer storing memories...
That to me is the second hurdle, restoring the body once the Bampire is "ousted". The third is re-Souling it...
Whatever cost is dramatically appropriate. I understand your perspective and probably would not personally give BCV redemption as an option to my players, but I am a firm believer that all options and game styles should be supported as long as they don't start damaging anyone's fun.
Turning a Black Court Vampire human is one thing, but making an Angel like Black Court Vampire is another. The Dresden RPG is a game of snowflakes and if Thomas (a White Court Vampire) can have a conscience then why not a Black Court one?
Richard
Have you read the short story where Harry goes to the mall to give Thomas a birthday present?
BCVs definitely still retain their personalities and memories they had in life. They're just... more evil and a lot more powerful.
Based on how Mavra acts too, I really don't think that vampires are easily classified.
WOJ is that Renfields are done, their fates irreversible. Harry says so with great authority in the casefiles. I believe him.
I have a hard time believing that in the last few thousand years, a BCV has not turned a wizard's family member into a renfield out of spite. And just like Harry did for Susan, I have a hard time believing that said wizard would not turn every resource they had available to them to the cause of "curing" their loved one.
If thousands of years of wizards could not do it, I doubt PCs could.
Not to argue this point... but I don't treat Harry Dresden's words as Gospel. If I were to run a DF game I wouldn't even be treated Jim Butcher as Gospel, which is beside the point.
I've seen a whole lot of "your table, your rules" type bits on many matters since I got here. I personally agree, once I think about it, that even an Unravelling couldn't save a Blampire. It would undo the enchantment exactly as described and leave a corpse as stated earlier. If I was handling GM duties (ha!) that's how I'd run it on the off chance someone managed to get their hands on such an item.
But! "Your table, your rules," and all. If a GM is willing to go with it, then for the purposes of that game something could be worked out. Even if a purist like myself would be loathe to go against WoJ. ;D
Just like the discussions in the spoilers section about redeeming Lash, I hate the idea because it would trivialize what a monster they are.
Because that stuck out a little, I wanted to make a quick comment. There is a difference between Lash, the shadow of one of the Fallen, and Lasciel the Fallen Angel, one of the thirty strongest and smartest Fallen Angels.
But like I said, just putting myself into the shoes of a RL PC, I have a hard time believing that the real "good guys" would be ok with icing creatures that could revert back to humans. That would make them victims, not monsters.
If thousands of years of wizards could not do it, I doubt PCs could.
Are they evil because they choose the easier option in service of a higher good? Isn't that some ancient philosophical territory being strayed into?
PCs are different, destined, special, they have "it", they have spirit or strength of will or some indefinable trait that allows them to succeed where everyone else failed. Because they're PCs.
Um. WoJ = Word of Jim.
As in the guy who writes the books sometimes explains how things work behind the scenes. Since the dresdenverse comes from his thoughts him saying "this is how something works" is basically the final statement on that.
I know. Don't care. Thanks for the link though, I've read it before but didn't save it.
In that case, I'd get in my rocket ship, fly them out to Neptune and have them cured by the friendly aliens there.
Couldn't you roll Discipline to go to Imagination Land and ask the friendly neighbor for a magic potion?
So, back to the original question:
Lets rephrase it as "easiest way to save a black court vampire and return them to a human (barring canonical issues)" and say that a ritual with enough shifts to kill the BCV should be enough to return it to a human, and probably make it the entirety of a scenario to do it. With allies and enemies of the BCV sniffing around town, looking around for their missing ally/enemy, finally breaking in during the final phase of the ritual, with the other players holding them off while the spellcaster works the ritual.
I like this, and I think it would also be appropriate for the ritual to include the death of an animal or something to symbolize the transfer of life.
So your real question is "how would you do something that's against canon?"
I know. Don't care. Thanks for the link though, I've read it before but didn't save it.
Were Mr. Butcher to sit at my table he'd have to deal with how my table runs things, our consensus and my take on how things work. His "authorship" would have little bearing. ;)
This is another thing that varies widely according to taste. I personally don't believe in ever letting NPCs outshine PCs at something the PC wants to do. I am fine ruling that the thousands of years of wizards before the current party just weren't HARDCORE enough to get the job done. PCs are different, destined, special, they have "it", they have spirit or strength of will or some indefinable trait that allows them to succeed where everyone else failed. Because they're PCs.
Not at all. Nowhere in canon or WoJ does it say Black Court Vampires are unable to be changed back.
....
So saying "But WoJ" or "BY CANON!" without those backing you up is, as I was trying to point out, pointless. ;)
So Jim Butcher sitting down at your table and saying "It won't work" isn't something you would accept BUT if we quote a WoJ or part of a book that's canon enough?
Sorry, I meant "quote part of a book that you won't say 'Well, Harry was probably wrong there' and accept as canon" - that would trump Jim saying "Dude, it's this way."?
I can't determine what you would accept as valid argument, so I'll shut up now. At least on this thread.
Bah it shouldn't be a ritual death, it should be a ritual life as the goal is to bring the dead back to life.... Woot for nookie ;D
Folks should also remember ghosts themselves are just echos and THEY don't get brought back. Wouldn't be surprised at all if Harry doesn't remember anything that happend during the ghost time unless he eats himself (as what happened with nightmare) when he gets raised....
I know. Don't care. Thanks for the link though, I've read it before but didn't save it.
Were Mr. Butcher to sit at my table he'd have to deal with how my table runs things, our consensus and my take on how things work. His "authorship" would have little bearing. ;)
No, no, no... I don't personally accept Harry as a Reliable Narrator because half the time he doesn't even know what he's doing (and Mr. Butcher butchered Hobs - but that's my opinion ;)). I'll accept canon and WOJ as being those things though. They have weight and measure. I often wish things were more spelled out, but he, we got what we got.
Then you're running in evileyoreverse.Yes, I am. Not germaine to the conversation though.
Theres also a difference between improbable and unheard of. SureYour "improbable" spoiler was "unheard of" till it happened as well.(click to show/hide)
Some of us are just saying, "Hey this doesn't make sense within this verse"Which is isn't a helpful answer. Okay, it is, once. Then you either leave the discussion or start helping.
Has there ever been a character in it that has turned their entire being on a dime? Well actually yes there has and they can, Renfields, RC infected, WCVirgin and changelings can and it is part of their process.Good.
1. Mortals are flimsy and can be changed by more powerful creatures, adding to their template.This can happen to non-Mortals as well, presumeably.
2. Supernatural templates are changed by their own will alone. And may have the chance to remove their own template, No outside influence can force them to drop a template.This is unproven and possibly false. I know there was talk of being able to uninfect an RCVI but that cost was too high?
3. Severely overwhelming force MAY be able to force a supernatural template to add to its own existing template, and not drop the old in the process.So your saying a Changeling couldn't be Hexenwolfed or RCVIed?(click to show/hide)
If my players asked for this I'd respond by asking them "Well whats stopping me from Unwizarding you?" or un(template)ing you? I cast lvl 100 plot magic unstunt/detemplate.
.... Actually it wouldn't be a bad tradeoff to force a player to give up their own powers in order to turn back an npc.... seems an appropriate sacrifice....Finally!
The bulk of the canon from the books is from unreliable Harry.Sigh. Yes. I know.
No, they didn't say that BCVs were unsavable, but when talking about Renfields, Bob said:Ahah! I'll take this as Fact for now, but what book was that in?
"The original Merlin couldn't undo it, and neither could any of the saints on record who have tried. A thrall can be freed, or recover over time. Renfields can't. From the moment their minds break they've got an expiration date."
If it's not impossible because of canon it's a simple shape change. As easy as turning turning someone to stone and back again.
Richard
Which is isn't a helpful answer. Okay, it is, once. Then you either leave the discussion or start helping.
Presumably your desire to keep them at the table. Also the rule of consensus.
I understand you don't like the idea for some reason, but this isn't the "Slap down all ideas and anyone questioning the WoJ!" forum.
You came looking for input. You are getting input. If people believe it's not possible, they are going to weigh in that it's not possible.
It's probably not all that important a distinction, but evileeyore is just weighing in as well - he wasn't the original poster: that was The Werewolf.
It was started by a guy who doesn't post here anymore. Then it died, last year. It was reanimated, and suddenly it's a hot debate. And it constantly seems like it's about to turn nasty.
Apologies to evileyore.No problem BB, I've been in a scrappy mood the last few
It was started by a guy who doesn't post here anymore. Then it died, last year. It was reanimated, and suddenly it's a hot debate.I... huh... well. I didn't notice that either. Here I am getting all scrappy over someone else's issue and they are long gone from probably caring.
and I would hazard a guess that it's theoretically possible for a Red Court Infected to recover.
The rest of your post aside...Really? I must have missed that book. The novels I've read have indicated that every such attempt has failed, thus leading to the creation of the Fellowship of St. Giles in an attempt to keep the curse at bay.
It is canonically, explicitly possible. There are even multiple, canonical, paths to such a recovery.
It is canonically, explicitly possible. There are even multiple, canonical, paths to such a recovery.
Ahah! I'll take this as Fact for now, but what book was that in?
So what do you think would be required to unRenfeild a Renfeild if it were possible?
I can easily understand the Merlin declaring them unsalvageable. I would.
That's extraordinarily unhelpful.
The only RCV recovery options I can see are:(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
Not the current 'Merlin' - aka the head of the White Council, but the original Merlin (man who forged the White Council and handed out at least one of the Swords of the Cross). He doesn't strike me as someone who would give up without exhausting all possibilities.
I'm not in favor of forming a consensus that vampirism (and other similar monstrous forms) is reversible. Yes, this is an oddly worded sentence. By it I mean this: the question of whether or not it can (theoretically) be done isn't important to me. What is important is that choosing to make it possible trivializes the condition in the first place. A game-reality in which vampires can be (and are) "cured" is less interesting that one in which they struggle to be cured but fall short. Once the first vampire finds a way to revert his vampirism, vampirism becomes a club, rather than a condition.Not belittling you: You never played White Wolf's Vampire : The Masquerade or Requiem, have you?
It's from Blood Rites - when Harry is prepping for the "raid the Black Court Hideout" part.Thanks, I just re-read that section.
Did you bother to read the second sentence? Seriously, what's the difference between turning a Vampire (an unliving thing) to a human if it works when you turn a human to unliving stone and back again?Seriously? Cost.
All possibilities available to him and coming at a cost he would be willing to pay.Exactly. We are told "It's impossible" by characters who likely have no reason to question Tradition. Or, whom have but haven't discovered a method (the case of Bob discussing Renfeilds).
Seriously? Cost.
The discussion (not our slapfest) was on how and how much cost. Deciding "Sure, if it's possible it's as easy as killing someone" isn't really moving the discussion forward. It's dismissing it.
Seriously? Cost.
The discussion (not our slapfest) was on how and how much cost. Deciding "Sure, if it's possible it's as easy as killing someone" isn't really moving the discussion forward. It's dismissing it.
Regardless, so if you think it's as easy as turning someone to stone and back, what would you consider to be necessary to Unstone someone? Keeping in mind they've now been killed by becoming stone...
Not belittling you: You never played White Wolf's Vampire : The Masquerade or Requiem, have you?And if you set down a process by which the curse can be reveresed, then vampirism no longer poses a threat, because the player knows on behalf of his character that if he ever gets infected, all he needs to do is follow the 12-step program. I *have* played the VtM, and know that there, like here, there is always rumors or hints that a cure might conceivably possible, but never any proof that it has been realized. Well, until they ended WoD1.0, at least.
If becoming mortal again is flatly impossible, there is no reason to struggle for it. If your Meta-premise for the character can never be realized, there is much less reason to really work at it, it becomes a side thing, that hobby the character pursues. The character won't ever really sacrifice for it, because the player knows it's impossible.*
Once it's done, vampirism loses it's teeth.
Let me see if I'm clear:
You specifically want recommendations on *what* the players have to do in order to put this ritual together
- a list of the actual tasks, Ritual Declarations, etc. that they have to come up with -
in order to power the 40+ shift Ritual :
(filling the entire consequence track 20
overcoming the largest stress track 5
matching a Superb Endurance skill 5
matching the best roll possible + 4
extra to overcome any additional Toughness, say another 6)
There's a way around the toughness. Get someone who is happy to fill a handkerchief with sunlight and make garlic an important component of the spell. I'm envisioning the ancient remedies combining in a cloud of vapor and light that washes over the target - driving out the evil as it transform him.
You could probably even tag the sunlight and garlic for steps in the prep step.
So 34 or so steps - if you're letting someone change another character's High Concept and template.
Richard
Plus some breaking of the laws of magic. This is important. You are, at the very least, bringing someone back from the dead and violating there. Lawbreaker for sure.
There's a way around the toughness. Get someone who is happy to fill a handkerchief with sunlight and make garlic an important component of the spell. I'm envisioning the ancient remedies combining in a cloud of vapor and light that washes over the target - driving out the evil as it transform him.
(who can't believe he's debating something that breaks canon and twists the rules so much)
No worries: people are allowed to run games that are close to - but not exactly - the DresdenVerse, so it is alright to debate such things, as long as everyone involved understands that we have no intention of ever allowing this in a canonical game, and have no desire to set a precedent. I'm certainly not judging you.
And as long as we agree our definitions of Canon do not all agree on all points.
Swim against the streams of time and prevent them from being tuned?
Kill them, and bring them back to life as a human?
Mind-swap them into a normal human body?
Where is your god now?