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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Kordeth on June 22, 2010, 04:59:24 AM

Title: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Kordeth on June 22, 2010, 04:59:24 AM
Out of curiosity, how are folks handling the use of magic circles for general trickery as opposed to flavor text in thaumaturgical spellcasting? From the novels, the properties of magic circles we've seen include:

1) Completely cutting the area within the circle from outside magical energy.

2) Requires little power to close (Harry routinely calls it a "tiny effort of his will" or the like) and doesn't seem to "scale" with practitioner power; I don't recall any instances of a magical creature or a spell punching through a circle because it was "more powerful."

3) Disrupted by even the smallest of physical breaches: even a stray hair or scuff mark can break a circle, and in Storm Front
(click to show/hide)

Numbers 1 and 2 point away from modeling this as a straight-up spell (for example, in Turn Coat
(click to show/hide)
). Currently I'm thinking it should count as a threshold, but I'm not sure what base strength to set it at.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 22, 2010, 05:05:54 AM
I'd make it an absolute effect: Unless broken, it blocks magic. Period.

There are exceptions, but they're rare and plot-relevant only (I'd allow a Death Curse to escape, for example. Or a diety or something else in that league). Barring those, it stops magic...but is casually broken as a Supplemental mundane action (a thrown pebble, for example).
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Kordeth on June 22, 2010, 05:56:39 AM
I'd make it an absolute effect: Unless broken, it blocks magic. Period.

There are exceptions, but they're rare and plot-relevant only (I'd allow a Death Curse to escape, for example. Or a diety or something else in that league). Barring those, it stops magic...but is casually broken as a Supplemental mundane action (a thrown pebble, for example).

Yeah, I guess "effective threshold value of Absolute (+∞)" is the most logical setup. :)
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Slife on June 22, 2010, 06:25:51 AM
I'd make it an absolute effect: Unless broken, it blocks magic. Period.

There are exceptions, but they're rare and plot-relevant only (I'd allow a Death Curse to escape, for example. Or a diety or something else in that league). Barring those, it stops magic...but is casually broken as a Supplemental mundane action (a thrown pebble, for example).
I'd actually let it  block death curses... so long as the circle is up, at least.  Break the circle, and out the curse goes.  Just like that entropy curse powered by HWWB
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 22, 2010, 06:35:45 AM
I'd actually let it  block death curses... so long as the circle is up, at least.  Break the circle, and out the curse goes.  Just like that entropy curse powered by HWWB

I could see that, though if the circle were ever broken, the curse would then escape.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Belial666 on June 22, 2010, 07:33:51 AM
If it was an absolute effect then why did Harry, when facing the entropy curse and the heartripper spell, didn't simply block them with a circle?
If it was an absolute effect, then why do supernatural creatures that are not omnipotent but are still powerful (i.e. summoned demons) fight to escape or pass through circles and the caster of the circle feels the pressure? And remember that even with an elaborate circle, Kim Delaney was still eaten by the Loup Garou.
If it was an absolute effect, then why use simplistic circles against small things, elaborate circles vs bigger things and ridiculously complicated stuff against, say, the Loup Garou, the Erlking or the Archive?
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 22, 2010, 07:39:36 AM
If it was an absolute effect then why did Harry, when facing the entropy curse and the heartripper spell, didn't simply block them with a circle?

Like I said, powerful enough magic will go through. I'd say 25 shifts plus or so. And unlike Wards they pop like soap bubbles when penetrated.

If it was an absolute effect, then why do supernatural creatures that are not omnipotent but are still powerful (i.e. summoned demons) fight to escape or pass through circles and the caster of the circle feels the pressure? And remember that even with an elaborate circle, Kim Delaney was still eaten by the Loup Garou.

Circles as such only stop magic, not necessarily mystical beings who have the will to cross them physically. Those you are referring to are Wards, which are a bit different.

If it was an absolute effect, then why use simplistic circles against small things, elaborate circles vs bigger things and ridiculously complicated stuff against, say, the Loup Garou, the Erlking or the Archive?

Because a Circle on it's own doesn't stop anything with sentience and will from physically crossing it, thus breaking it.


In short, a circle (by itself) stops spells, and things incapable of the act of will of breaking it (basically, this is only very low level supernaturals, anything as smart as a mouse or so can break it easy). Anything that can talk or even think can go right through it, you need Wards to stop them. Now combining the two (a circular Ward) is pretty cool...which is likely why they're so common.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: DFJunkie on June 22, 2010, 03:01:11 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is that it seems like anyone can create a magic circle, they just need to be shown how to do it.  See Butters several times in Dead Beat, including one instance where he uses it to stop an outright attacker, rather than just to filter out magical energy.

Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 22, 2010, 03:22:37 PM
Yep, Circles are a world rule, not a magical power per se.

And, going back to what I was saying previously, the attacker in question was non-sentient undead.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Wordmaker on June 22, 2010, 04:03:05 PM
It's also worth noting that, while a circle might prevent an entropy curse from affecting something inside it directly, it won't stop that car driving by from having a blowout and hurtling towards you...

Where it really gets iffy is when you wonder if vampries and other sentient, non-Nevernever, monsters can cross them. I tend to rule that they can't, but creating the circle in a conflict-type situation is a maneuver or block.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Crypt King on June 22, 2010, 04:11:36 PM
I'm really disappointed that it's not referenced in the books.  They have a "see page 270something" and there isn't anything there, just info on wards with no reference to circles let alone how a non practitioner would use them.  Problem is, they aren't all powerful.  Harry had to strain hard to contain Chauncy with his.  In the book, it can be used without issue, but in a game with crafty players it can quickly become the 400lb Gorilla that causes nothing but problems.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: DFJunkie on June 22, 2010, 04:40:46 PM
See, I think that a vampire, a creature that is part spirit and part material, could cross or at least disrupt a magic circle.  The Loup-Garou required three circles to contain, one for spiritual entities, one for physical entities, and a third for beings that are both simultaneously.  Vampires are humans whose souls have been inhabited by a demon.  If anything, they would fall into the "physical" category.  Also, in TC Harry informs Murph that Binder's grey men cannot break his circle because they lack a will of their own.  Whether or not a vamp's demon has a will (rather than just a nature) the human host of the demon does, and could therefore break the circle.

As to why Harry didn't just circle up when the Shadowman was looking to make his heart 'asplode in SF, I'd assume that Harry wanted to stop the warlock once and for all rather than simply defend against this attack.  After all, there would be another storm eventually, and at least in the case of Stormfront's climax the Shadowman could have relocated once he realized that Harry was onto his location.


I like the concept of treating a magical circle as an instant threshold with a massive value that can be undone easily.

 
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: CMEast on June 22, 2010, 05:01:53 PM
Maybe the threshold value is related to the refresh cost of the character that created the circle. As a threshold that's pretty high and can block a lot of nastiness but isn't unbreakable and powerful heart-exploding curses will blast right through it.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 22, 2010, 05:41:38 PM
Harry had to strain hard to contain Chauncy with his.

I'm gonna say this one more time, because people keep using it as an example:

THAT WAS NOT A CIRCLE. Not as we're discussing the term, anyway. It was a Ward that hapened to be circular. Chauncy, having a will of his own, could casually walk through a mere Circle. If you doubt me, re-read the Summoning and Binding rules (which involve a warded circle to contain the summoned entity).
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Kordeth on June 22, 2010, 05:45:40 PM
If it was an absolute effect then why did Harry, when facing the entropy curse and the heartripper spell, didn't simply block them with a circle?

The entropy curse because a) a circle is far too easy to disrupt, b) there were too many potential targets to try to protect, and c) he needed to trace the spell back to its caster to actually solve the case. Also, based on the events of Small Favor, it's pretty clear hat there are practical limitations to the size of a circle--Harry couldn't make one big enough to protect the whole studio.

The heartripper spell because Harry didn't know he was a target until he felt the spell hit him, and it's hard to focus enough to draw a circle around yourself when your heart's exploding out of your chest. Also, again, sitting around in a magic circle doesn't solve the case.

Quote
If it was an absolute effect, then why do supernatural creatures that are not omnipotent but are still powerful (i.e. summoned demons) fight to escape or pass through circles and the caster of the circle feels the pressure? And remember that even with an elaborate circle, Kim Delaney was still eaten by the Loup Garou.

As others have mentioned, you're confusing magic circles with summoning/binding circles. A magic circle isolates the area inside from the magical energies outside. You can't summon a demon in a magic circle, because the energy it needs to maintain the ectoplasmic body it creates will be cut off--we've seen Harry exploit this on a few occasions, by drawing a magic circle around a summoned entity and cutting off its source of magic.

The loup-garou was bound (or was supposed to be bound) in a binding circle--three concentric layers of wards designed to block three different phenomena. Since the loup garou is a physical being and not wholly magical, putting it in a magic circle would be marginally less effective than putting it inside a large cardboard box.

The only time we see Harry use a magic circle to trap something is with Toot-toot: Harry draws a circle but doesn't close it, then lures Toot-toot in with a call to his True Name and a fresh pizza, and once Toot's inside he closes the circle. Since faeries, like Red Court vampires, have actual bodies and not ectoplasmic constructs, that's a trick that can work without dissolving Toot into goo.

Quote
If it was an absolute effect, then why use simplistic circles against small things, elaborate circles vs bigger things and ridiculously complicated stuff against, say, the Loup Garou, the Erlking or the Archive?

Again, you're confusing two different concepts. A magic circle is a magic circle, though some wizards go for more complexity than others as a matter of pomp and circumstance. What you're talking about is a binding spell, which the game recognizes as a type of ward. I've already talked about why the loup-garou is in no way hampered by a magic circle. The Erlking, being a faerie, presumably could be caught in one the same way Toot-toot was, but since Harry was calling him with a summoning spell as opposed to luring him in while he was present in the physical world, presumably a magic circle would cut off that magic and end the spell, allowing him to leave. The Archive, as I recall, was bound inside a fairly ordinary magic circle on top of which were layered very powerful wards and bindings to keep her from trying anything. The laser-pentagram circle, like I said, was because there seems to be a practical size limitation on circles.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Kordeth on June 22, 2010, 05:47:55 PM
I'm gonna say this one more time, because people keep using it as an example:

THAT WAS NOT A CIRCLE. Not as we're discussing the term, anyway. It was a Ward that hapened to be circular. Chauncy, having a will of his own, could casually walk through a mere Circle. If you doubt me, re-read the Summoning and Binding rules (which involve a warded circle to contain the summoned entity).

I'm pretty sure Chauncy, being a demon, has no free will and thus couldn't cross a circle's boundaries any more than Toot-toot, Bob, or Binder's Gray Men could--and even if he did, it would cut off the magic holding his ectoplasmic form together, and he'd promptly melt into goop.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Slife on June 23, 2010, 08:31:08 AM
I could see that, though if the circle were ever broken, the curse would then escape.
That's exactly what I meant.

And, hey, if I ever run a game I'd totally let my players do that.  Now they've got their very own sealed away evil force to keep contained.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 23, 2010, 08:48:41 AM
I'm pretty sure Chauncy, being a demon, has no free will and thus couldn't cross a circle's boundaries any more than Toot-toot, Bob, or Binder's Gray Men could--and even if he did, it would cut off the magic holding his ectoplasmic form together, and he'd promptly melt into goop.

Demons don't have 'free will' in quite the sense mortals do, but anything with a name or sense of individual identity has more than enough individual agency to break a Circle.

And no, there's no evidence getting out of a Circle would do anything of the kind. Now, if he was surrounded by a circle once freed from the wards...that might drop his Ectoplasm and shunt him back to the Nevernever, but only if they were being maintained externally. I wouldn't bet against Chauncy having some internal energy reserves against such an eventuality.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Rel Fexive on June 23, 2010, 05:36:30 PM
If you have to fight a battle of wills to control a demon, the demon by definition has a will to fight against.  Being a 'magical being', however, means they can't easily break through a simple circle... much like they can't easily break through a threshold, I'd say.  So if they're strong enough, it won't keep them out forever, as long as they're smart enough to realise it.

Also bear in mind that most (if not all) of the demon summoning was in the earlier books, when the "rules" were not as defined as they have become after another ten books or more.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Kordeth on June 24, 2010, 12:54:40 AM
Demons don't have 'free will' in quite the sense mortals do, but anything with a name or sense of individual identity has more than enough individual agency to break a Circle.

I don't think that's accurate; Harry uses a magic circle to trap Toot-toot in Storm Front, after all--and in that case it's pretty explicitly a magic circle, not a ward. The language used to describe what Harry does is basically identical to the language every other time Harry creates a circle. Later in the same book, when he breaks the Shadowman's circle, he explicitly points out that it was because it was an act of "human will" or something similar.

Quote
And no, there's no evidence getting out of a Circle would do anything of the kind. Now, if he was surrounded by a circle once freed from the wards...that might drop his Ectoplasm and shunt him back to the Nevernever, but only if they were being maintained externally. I wouldn't bet against Chauncy having some internal energy reserves against such an eventuality.

I was referring to stepping into a circle, assuming such a feat could be accomplished without breaking it.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 24, 2010, 02:14:38 AM
I don't think that's accurate; Harry uses a magic circle to trap Toot-toot in Storm Front, after all--and in that case it's pretty explicitly a magic circle, not a ward. The language used to describe what Harry does is basically identical to the language every other time Harry creates a circle. Later in the same book, when he breaks the Shadowman's circle, he explicitly points out that it was because it was an act of "human will" or something similar.

Pixies are pretty borderline on the whole agent of will thing, and it could just as easily have been a Ward with Complexity 3-5 or so. It's the first book, he didn't give all the details.

I was referring to stepping into a circle, assuming such a feat could be accomplished without breaking it.

Yeah, that might work
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Slife on June 24, 2010, 05:11:05 AM
I just want to see a villain make a gigantic magic circle using the earth's orbit around the sun.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Crypt King on June 24, 2010, 02:34:31 PM
I don't think that's accurate; Harry uses a magic circle to trap Toot-toot in Storm Front, after all--and in that case it's pretty explicitly a magic circle, not a ward. The language used to describe what Harry does is basically identical to the language every other time Harry creates a circle. Later in the same book, when he breaks the Shadowman's circle, he explicitly points out that it was because it was an act of "human will" or something similar.
This.  Chauncy was just one example used, so chill.  There's this incident with Toot toot, a couple of times in the books.

There is a lot of play of magic circles, that aren't wards in the books, hell the skinwalker used one to break Harry's soul garrote in book 11.  That's not a ward, or a threshold being used.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 24, 2010, 03:01:40 PM
Oh, I know Circles get used (and for a variety of awesome stuff)...but not usually to trap things.

The issue comes from the fact that a "Circle" is two entirely separate things in game terms:

#1: A quick thing anyone can do to block magical energy (and pretty much only magical energy).

#2: A Thaumaturgical Ward of one sort or another.


Metaphysically they are similar, though the second can do things the first can't due to the focused effort of the spellcaster's will. The second is what Harry uses to trap Toot, at least in game terms. check out YS p. 297.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: vultur on June 26, 2010, 06:18:13 PM
I don't think that's accurate; Harry uses a magic circle to trap Toot-toot in Storm Front, after all--and in that case it's pretty explicitly a magic circle, not a ward. The language used to describe what Harry does is basically identical to the language every other time Harry creates a circle. Later in the same book, when he breaks the Shadowman's circle, he explicitly points out that it was because it was an act of "human will" or something similar.

Clearly making a circle isn't limited to humans however; the skinwalker uses one to cut off one of Harry's soulfire constructs, and it isn't human.
Title: Re: Magic Circles for fun and profit
Post by: Melfast on July 02, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
I've also been interested in how to use magic circles in the game (outside of thaumaturgy).  After looking through the book I finally found a margin note from Bob on page 230 that says that magic circles could be considered like thresholds (an illustration also applied to running water): "By this definition, magical circles could be considered thresholds, but I don’t think you really need to worry about that for the purposes of the game."

The comment is slightly out of place, and I think should be at the bottom of the page near this line: "But other things serve as thresholds as well. In the broadest sense, the term “threshold” may be given to any metaphysical barrier that impedes or blocks supernatural power from passing from point A to point B."

Looking at the effects of a threshold (block, suppress, source of harm), this seems to work mechanically although going with the same Fair +2 value as standard thresholds and running water does not seem to give them the same oomph as in the game.  Maybe because of their fragility they could have a value = to the user's Conviction score but no stress tracks (magic immunity, but automatically fails against any physical attack regardless of whether it would do stress damage to a target normally)?  This feels right since Conviction represents and individual's strength of belief, which seems essential to making a successful circle.

Just my two cents.