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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Ravangames on June 16, 2010, 08:06:06 PM
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Okay so there is the Knights of the Cross and the Venatori Umbrorum that are essentially mortals fighting the good fight.
Since Michigan has a huge population of Muslims, I was thinking of creating a Muslim group that fought the supernatural. Just having a bad time of coming up with a name for the clued in group. Any suggestions?
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I can't claim to have really any knowledge of real Islamic culture(s), but if we look back to old classics Arabian Nights, and related stories, we could find examples of heros fighting monsters. More modern stories tell of Islamic development of hashashin that could kill monsters. Also mujahideen I believe translates ruffly to soldiers of god, (Something like, Wagers of Jihad) are certainly something that could be basis for a game. I don't see any reason why the Qur'an couldn't be used for justifying fighting monsters as easily as the Bible.
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Okay so there is the Knights of the Cross and the Venatori Umbrorum that are essentially mortals fighting the good fight.
Since Michigan has a huge population of Muslims, I was thinking of creating a Muslim group that fought the supernatural. Just having a bad time of coming up with a name for the clued in group. Any suggestions?
maybe something like the Magi from the Mummy?
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If you specifically wisth to tie them to a Islam rather than one of the specific cultural groups in that region, perhaps something tied in with Saladin, perhaps? He kicked ass in 8 flavors but even his adversaries considered him chivalrous and honorable. If you wish to go with something regional rather than religious, you'd likely have to work with pre-Islam characters like Gilgamesh.
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A name that I've used in the past is Al Seifedin (sic). It's arabic for "Sword of the Faithful". The Grand Master of the Order was referred to as Abu Seif (Father of Swords). Their battale cry was "Inshallah!" (God Wills It!)
Hope this is helpful.
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All good suggestions.. I'll have to come up with a ranking system for them...
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From http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/sufi.html - (typos are theirs)
Unlike Christianity, ceremonial magic has a legitimate place in Islam. According to Islamic law, sihr-al-halal or pemitted magick may be used as a vehicle for religious discovery. This has given Sufis room to preserve magickal practices from the ancient world which were systematically supressed in Europe, which had to wait for the Renaissiance for their re-introduction. Like Qabalah, Sufi ideas played an important part in the European Rennaissance, in particular being hugely influential on the Rosicrucian movement. In terms of esoteric practice, there is also a large overlap between Qabalistic and Sufic magickal practice, hardly surprising when one considers the related languages, geographical proximity, and common religious heritage. Like Qabalists, Sufis have alway sought to maintain their legitimacy within mainstream religion. Like Qabalists, they maintained an intellectual tradition in continuity from the Hellenistic culture of the last few cenuries b.c.e.. There are also some similarities which both refuse to acknowledge. The practice of demonic magic (summoning and binding demons) has a central role in the magick of both traditions. This doesn't sit easily with modern Sufis, who like to stress the more image-friendly "spiritual development" side of their tradition. Nevertheless, demonic magick is probably one of the most ancient threads in the Sufi tapestry, dating back to the ancient Canaanite/Babylonian/Egyptian cultures. Many medieval grimoires (which mark the point at which demonology entered Western Europe) contain lists of demons with names directly traceable to these traditions. When [ref]Aleister Crowley 'restored' the Invocation of the Bornless One, he found good correlations between the nonsense-names contained in the Graeco-Coptic original and Egyptian godforms, correspondances born out by the context of the ritual.
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You could take a page out of the Hashshashin. They could be "Nizari" with their leader being called "Hassan i Sabbah". Waging asymmetric warfare against the forces of evil, using their own weapons like fear and terror.
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Unlike Christianity, ceremonial magic has a legitimate place in Islam
Magical bread and wine turning in to the blood and flesh of the person worshipped so it can be eaten?
You could take a page out of the Hashshashin. They could be "Nizari" with their leader being called "Hassan i Sabbah". Waging asymmetric warfare against the forces of evil, using their own weapons like fear and terror.
Suicide bombers would make for a very short DFRPG campaign.
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Magical bread and wine turning in to the blood and flesh of the person worshipped so it can be eaten?
In fairness, there's a distinction between asking a God or Gods to do something, and doing it yourself via a ritual process. Basically, in DFRPG terms, the difference between Sponsored Magic and the regular sort. Christianity has a bit less room for the non-Sponsored variety.
Suicide bombers would make for a very short DFRPG campaign.
True, but all organizations based loosely on the Hashashin hardly need to duplicate all their methods.
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This thread really, really doesn't want to go into suicide bombers and the like. The original idea has a great deal of merit, but stay away from modern social/political issues like that.
I assure you.
I most emphatically assure you.
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This thread really, really doesn't want to go into suicide bombers and the like. The original idea has a great deal of merit, but stay away from modern social/political issues like that.
I assure you.
I most emphatically assure you.
QFT
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QFT
Yah, no negative spin. I want to create a team that helps out against the vampires and the like.
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True, the DFRPG isn't real life. I can edit my comment if you like, I'm aware that the majority of people on this forum are American and I'm also aware that religion is a sensitive topic. I'd prefer not to edit my earlier comment though as I feel my points were relevant for a fair and balanced view and mentioning Hashshashin or Sufi magic for Islamic knights is unfair when the DFRPG Christian Knights aren't influenced by the spanish inquisition, the crusades, witch burning or any of the more negative facets of Christian history.
I always forget irony and sarcasm don't translate well online.
Also, I think whatever you come up with, much of it will have to be invented totally, just as the KotC in the Dresden Files were pretty much totally made up. On a name, something based around the concept of the (greater) jihad or the jambiya (the knives Muslims wear)?
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Suicide bombers would make for a very short DFRPG campaign.
How did you make the jump to suicide bombers from my post?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymetrical_warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymetrical_warfare) The American Revolutionary War was itself full of examples for such a kind of warfare.
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Again, it was exaggeration in order to highlight my point ironically. Christians can have knights that use their faith and divine power as a weapon, Islam can have assassins that use fear and terror as their weapons? Of course, I'm sure that wasn't what you meant to say, but it just seemed like a classic example of ethnocentrism in action. The Op wanted names for Muslim knights, he was suggested names for Muslim assassins.
Of course, I hadn't planned on jumping on a soapbox about it as it's only a minor thing and the Hashshashin are a commonly known Islamic sect, so I just made two quick comments to... even it out I guess. Oh well, let's get the thread back on topic.
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What is arabic for "Warriors of Light"?
Thinking of that as the base name...
Having 1 small group of them in each capital city, supported by a mosque...
Each group has a leader.
1 in the group is a Champion of God, Focused Practitioner, Minor Talent, sorcerer or Wizard.
... Or is that too many magical beings for a group to go against the powers of darkness?
Detroit's Chapter would be at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn...
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&utm_campaign=en&utm_medium=ha&utm_source=en-ha-na-us-bk-dd&utm_term=google%20directions
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My post is just a friendly advisement. Like those big orange barrels at the roadside or construction tape around a big hole in the ground. In this case, we're on ground that could quite easilly drift into Touchy Topic Land. The OP has a fascinating idea that can enrich the gameworld, and it brings other ideas to mind. How have the Massai dealt with supernatural predators, for example?
I just wanted to ensure we don't wander into direction of real life commentary on social/political issues. Thread drift being what it is, think about how often a mention of Robin Hood turns brings up comments socialism, captialism, etc. Or how often a question about Michael's sword turns into a discussion or even snarky arguement on various interpretations of Christianity, predestination, and high fructose corn syrup. So we need to be careful where we let our rambling lead us. Imagine Larry Fowler getting a hold of it, taking it out of context and saying "New Harry Dresden game teaches children to be suicide bombers!"
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I don't know what you're talking about with the whole thread drift thing.
On an unrelated note, I have an idea!
(http://iwanovitsj.web-log.nl/Achmed_the_Dead_Terrorist.JPG)
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I would look at the classic novel: 1001 Arabian Nights, there are many short stories you could use for inspiration for your name and villains. This might help you come up with an appropriate name.
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The Djinn have a very interesting lore and history, much like that of the Fey in western culture, or Kami in shinto. Maybe they're involved with/opposed to these powers in some way.
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The Epic of Gilgamesh comes to mind.
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I would say most large, powerful organisations would have an awareness of the supernatural world whether it's just a couple of high-ups, a grass-roots movement or an organised conspiracy. There's probably at least one organisation for each major religion (though some religions will have very different reactions to others) and major world powers. Heck, there might be some secret department in microsoft or apple, channeling for ideas, for stockmarket hints etc.
Warriors of Light sounds like a good name and that organisation sounds good to me.
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I think it could be a great basis for adding more Holy Swords to the game, Like three blades each contain a fragment of the tablets the prophet recorded the Qur'an on, Or something similar. Passed down to bloodline of kings. Get three nice Arabic Names (Justice, (عدالة) Hope (أمل), and freedom (حرية) thanks Google translator), go with Abu Saif or similar BA order name, and suddenly we have a whole awesome set of Not-Knights of the cross prefect for play in your home game without getting your canon dirty.
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What is arabic for "Warriors of Light"?
Thinking of that as the base name...
Having 1 small group of them in each capital city, supported by a mosque...
Each group has a leader.
1 in the group is a Champion of God, Focused Practitioner, Minor Talent, sorcerer or Wizard.
Light is Noor or Nur as Nuristan meaning "Land of Light" (or it could be translated as the Enlightened)
It would probably be something like Sayef al Nur meaning "Sword of Light". You could also go with "Zulficar". This was the name of the sword that Mohammed carried.
Hope the helps.
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Light is Noor or Nur as Nuristan meaning "Land of Light" (or it could be translated as the Enlightened)
It would probably be something like Sayef al Nur meaning "Sword of Light". You could also go with "Zulficar". This was the name of the sword that Mohammed carried.
Hope the helps.
Excellent Zulficar thats an awesome name for a sword.
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Zulficar is a cool name for a sword, but it could also work as the group name: The Zulficari, the swords of Mohammed. After all, they don't actually have to have magic swords, they could have, magic daggers or wands or a certain piece of jewellery or clothing. They could be powerful defensive items, they could fire bolts of lightning or hypnotise their enemies. It could be powerful anti-magic, or even a 'truth' weapon that shows all lies, cancels all illusions and show monsters for what they really are (tough on RCV).
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Light is Noor or Nur as Nuristan meaning "Land of Light" (or it could be translated as the Enlightened)
It would probably be something like Sayef al Nur meaning "Sword of Light". You could also go with "Zulficar". This was the name of the sword that Mohammed carried.
Hope the helps.
I just plain like that name. It rolls out smoothly and sounds RIGHT. Maybe not for the OP's use specifically, but I'm going to gank that name and save it for a good use at some point in D&D.
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Look at the Sufi and the Dervishes(from Persian درویش, Darvīsh). Sufism is the mystical aspect/side of Islam and the practitioners. It would be a sort of Faith magic thing if that was a way you wanted to go. If you wanted to go more sword combat style the look at the Hashishin. I also like the idea of having weapons that incorporate holy items from Islam in a similar fashion to the swords of the cross( hey if the White God thought it was cool for the crusifiction artifacts why not others)
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The books sort of imply that a Muslim would have no problem carrying a Sword of the Cross. Your actual faith doesn't seem to matter specifically, just qualitatively.. I know that at one point, the parable of the blind men and the elephant is used. All religions are facets of the same God seems to be the canon of the Dresdenverse.
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The books sort of imply that a Muslim would have no problem carrying a Sword of the Cross. Your actual faith doesn't seem to matter specifically, just qualitatively.. I know that at one point, the parable of the blind men and the elephant is used. All religions are facets of the same God seems to be the canon of the Dresdenverse.
There's also nothing that contradicts Islam having its owns set of swords... Alles Verboten? :)
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The knife Abraham was going to use to sacrifice Ishmael is the center of one of the overriding plot arc in the multi-campaign rp I doing now, as is a short spear made from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and given to Adam by god when he and Eve were banished. For something similar to the Swords of the Cross, you could have appropriate weapons with some grains of rock worked in; the grains coming from the Foundation Stone where Muhammad accompanied Gabriel to heaven.
Really, finding thematic examples of cool magicy things from religion is super easy. Heck, if you take them all at face value (Dresdenverse wise), there are booty loads of "holy" artifacts lost around the world, just waiting for some enterprising adventurer to find and take them up. Islam specificly is even easier as you can still pull from both Judaism and Christianity, just have to give it that Muslim tint (Note how my mentioned knife was going to be used to sacrifice Ishmael and not Isaac). :)
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There's also nothing that contradicts Islam having its owns set of swords... Alles Verboten? :)
It certainly doesn't contradict, but a Muslim DID carry a Sword of the Cross.
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Light is Noor or Nur as Nuristan meaning "Land of Light" (or it could be translated as the Enlightened)
It would probably be something like Sayef al Nur meaning "Sword of Light". You could also go with "Zulficar". This was the name of the sword that Mohammed carried.
Hope the helps.
nice... is there a plural form of Sayef? Or would it be Sayef al Nurs?
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Just talked to my Muslim friend and he gave me some good suggestions so I thought I would share. With pronunciations to boot!
Uli albass (Those who strike first) - "ooli el albaas"
Al-Lajna (The Council) - "al laj na"
Al-Akhwan (The Brothers) "al ik waan"
Al-Ansar (The Supporters (of God)) - "al ansaar"
Mujahideen Alnour (Warriors of Light) -"Moo jah hid deen al noor"
BTW if you read this Moe, thanks!
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What about King Solomon's Ring as an Item of Power? It would probably grant a lot of power over beings of the Nevernver.
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What about King Solomon's Ring as an Item of Power? It would probably grant a lot of power over beings of the Nevernver.
That one always struck me as being more Judaic than the others.
Solomon was Merlin back before crusty blue celtic madmen knew what the word "bathing" meant. ;D
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That one always struck me as being more Judaic than the others.
Not much of a surprise, considering the common roots of Islam and Judeo-Christianity. Solomon is part of all 3.
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If you want to make him a bit more Muslim call him Suleiman.
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If you want to make him a bit more Muslim call him Suleiman.
Might cause confusion though, as the name Suleiman is more associated with this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleiman_the_Magnificent) in the West.
He's even got a statue or two in DC.
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I don't think there would need to be a specific change to the swords or the champions who wield them to brand them as something more Muslim. The only problem with them so far is that they're supposed to get their power because they have a nail from the cross and that isn't consistent with Islamic stories right? It's pretty easy to add some spin to what powers an artifact. It's not like anyone will take the thing apart to find out.
A possible idea: Let's say you focus on Saladin as an example of a champion. Before his death he had given away most of his possessions and money. Perhaps the Swords were forged using pieces of his armor or weaponry which were melted down. Another possibility is a legend about scrolls embedded in the hilts of the swords, wrapped around the tang of the blade. What they say and who wrote them could be as significant as you want it to be. The characters may not ever see these scrolls but then the Swords are implements of faith, not science. Proof is optional.
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The items (swords, daggers, jewelry, what-have-you), were, according to legend, found by Saladin shortly after he conquered/reclaimed Jerusalem (without the slaughter that the Crusaders indulged in..). Their actual origin is unknown; the faithful say that they were given to Saladin (and the faithful who followed him) by Allah to work towards protecting the Faithful and spreading the Faith without cruelty, or slaughter of the innocent. Hence, they are meant to be used against the true enemies of the Faithful, the supernatural monsters who prey on mankind.
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Might cause confusion though, as the name Suleiman is more associated with this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleiman_the_Magnificent) in the West.
He's even got a statue or two in DC.
I'm from the west and never heard of that guy. Suleiman as a parallel spelling of Solomon, I've heard of.
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You could make swords with simular powers sure, however I wouldn't make them have the same purpose of the Swords of the Cross as they shouldn't be tied them the Denarians at all. The nails of the cross and the 30 pieces of coins silver have significant ties to eachother and bringing something in from another faith.. no ... just ... no...
If you really want to make a new item of power based on a religion (any) pick a parable, story, lesson, or whatever as a focus and decide from there what the item should be, but more importantly determine WHY and HOW it should be used. The Lore and Background of the item should be MUCH more important than refresh or anything related to game mechanics.
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You could make swords with simular powers sure, however I wouldn't make them have the same purpose of the Swords of the Cross as they shouldn't be tied them the Denarians at all. The nails of the cross and the 30 pieces of coins silver have significant ties to eachother and bringing something in from another faith.. no ... just ... no...
As has been pointed out already: All the Abrahamic religions are basically variations on the same thing in the DV. Agnostics, Muslims, and a Shinto-Baptist have been known to carry the Swords, so it's not impossible that other pieces of Godly Fun are lying around tied to the Swords and the Denarians.
Plus the Swords don't even stick to their own (declared) mission much of the time. It's not unreasonable for other artifacts to pop up that would have missions intersecting with them or running parallel.
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How about the Abdals, 40 Sufi True Believers with supernatural powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdal)? Some of them could be warriors...
And by the way - Judaism have 36 Tzadikim Nistarim keeping people safe from disasters and enemies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzadikim_Nistarim).
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As has been pointed out already: All the Abrahamic religions are basically variations on the same thing in the DV. Agnostics, Muslims, and a Shinto-Baptist have been known to carry the Swords, so it's not impossible that other pieces of Godly Fun are lying around tied to the Swords and the Denarians.
I think the big thing with the swords is that the Islamic faith has a different story of Jesus than the Christians do. Specifically the Christians have the crucifixion story while the muslims do not. There are other differences as I understand it but that would be the only one that really mattered for this discussion. I'm neither muslim nor christian but I was educated at christian schools; I apologize if I get anything wrong here, it's not intentional. That was why a different take on the swords seemed to fit rather well to me. It would basically mirror the different approaches they take to the central figure (Jesus) in the appropriate legends. I'm an optimist, so I was thinking that if done well it's the sort of thing that could allow people on either side to appreciate similar values and make it mean more to them. Which I think is something that's also done in the novels by the inclusion of the non-christian knights of the cross.
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If you want to be accurate, you will probably have to use either Saladin or something from the time of Mohammed himself.
(Like any other religion, current day Islam has a lot of... propaganda mixed in, unfortunately in the form of Fatvas. Fatva is basically a learned scholar of Islam answering a generationally new problem that isn't written in Qran like "is it ok to use dsl connection supplied by a heathen company? ". Saladin and Mohammed eras are probably the only eras (and people / organisations) where you can find decent and unbiased info on)