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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Belial666 on June 12, 2010, 09:27:00 PM

Title: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Belial666 on June 12, 2010, 09:27:00 PM
Ok, here's the deal; what happens when Artifact A says X happens and Artifact B says X does not happen? For example, a Sword of the Cross allows you to ignore all Toughness powers and all Armor. Nicodemus' Noose gives Physical Immunity penetrated only by itself. By the books, the Noose trumps the sword, as evidenced by Nick's fight with Michael and Nick having killed over a hundred Knights through the centuries.

But how do we see which artifact trumps what when we don't have a book reference? I.e. somebody is wearing artifact armor giving Armor 3 and fights against a Knight of the Cross. Somebody else is wielding an artifact Athame empowered by death magic to overcome toughness abilities and fights against Nick. What happens then?
Title: Re: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 12, 2010, 09:31:58 PM
As a rule, I'd go with whichever item costs more Refresh, though I might go the other way for plot reasons. Either way, I'm nice enough that I'd give a free Compel to whoever's item fails to compensate them for their item not working.
Title: Re: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Bubba Amon Hotep on June 12, 2010, 10:35:43 PM
so your asking what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?   ;D

I would simply say power it by plot.  Is it the final scene with the BBEG and he isn't suppose to get away?  Then the Magic is enough to overcome the BBEG's magic.  If he has more scenes it doesn't.
Title: Re: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Jeckel on June 13, 2010, 01:04:40 AM
If it was two artifacts, each belonged to separate PCs, neither artifact drove the plot or was driven by the plot, and it was a direct contest between the two artifacts...

1) I start with thematic effects. If one artifact's thematic stuff trumped the other (light beats dark, water beats fire, etc) I'd stop there.

2) Then I'd use their refresh costs, the more costly artifact trumping the other.

3) If the refresh costs were the same, close enough, or the players weren't satisfied by any of the above, then I would have each player use their artifact's refresh cost (or maybe some skill if it seem appropriate) and have them use that as their defense and attack stat and have the two go at so the rolls can solve the problem.

4) When nothing else seems to fit right, my default would be that the two artifacts are completely unaffected (or equally effected) by the other.


I ran into similar situations in my first DF campaign (which had a lot of "divine" artifacts) and option 3 is what I used most of the time. I had them roll their artifact's refresh cost, but one artifact was a sentient lamp with a high lore so I allowed its lore skill to be rolled instead when it applied.

I used option 3 in a few instances, the water beats fire being the best example, and the final two uber artifacts used option 4 since the artifacts were basically evenly matched and the two players skills were really irrelevant, them just being tools of the weapons (it was their "side-kicks" actions that decided the battle).
Title: Re: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on June 13, 2010, 11:45:32 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on June 12, 2010, 09:27:00 PM
For example, a Sword of the Cross allows you to ignore all Toughness powers and all Armor.

Actually, a Sword of the Cross allows you to satisfy the catch. That is different than just ignoring the Toughness powers. Nicodemus' Noose has the catch "the Barabbas Noose itself can be used to harm its wearer" and the Sword satisfies that catch. So in this instance there is no conflict between the two.

As for the fact that Nicodemus has dealt with the Knights many times before... I think that is because he is ruthless and doesn't mind sacrificing other Denarians to save his own skin.
Title: Re: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Belial666 on June 14, 2010, 01:01:11 AM
Except that Nikodemus wasn't harmed by Michael's attacks. And it was implied in the book that the Knights and the Church didn't know how to kill him.
Title: Re: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Sabrel on June 14, 2010, 01:40:18 AM
Quote from: Belial666 on June 14, 2010, 01:01:11 AM
Except that Nikodemus wasn't harmed by Michael's attacks. And it was implied in the book that the Knights and the Church didn't know how to kill him.

That is true, and was possibly an oversight by the designers at Evil Hat. However, as currently written, Biff is right. The Noose has a catch, and spending a fate point allows a Sword of the Cross to satisfy the catch of any supernatural defense. There's really no question in straight RAW terms.
Title: Re: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Bubba Amon Hotep on June 14, 2010, 02:50:35 AM
Quote from: Belial666 on June 14, 2010, 01:01:11 AM
Except that Nikodemus wasn't harmed by Michael's attacks. And it was implied in the book that the Knights and the Church didn't know how to kill him.

Okay talking about two different things.  You want to hurt him, or kill him?

Quote
Death Masks Chapter 31
(click to show/hide)

A non-magic automatic weapon can hurt the heck out him.  But not kill him.  Swords of the cross can cut him all day long and hurt him, but not kill him.  In the novel it appears that the Noose grants him regeneration at high level, and a get out of death free card.  He is like deadpool, just saner.
Title: Re: Artifact vs Artifact.
Post by: Belial666 on June 14, 2010, 06:47:40 AM
Rules-wise, that was physical immunity with attacks counting as maneuers. I.e. you can't really harm him but your attacks can add temporary aspects, knock him off a train and similar.