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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tbora on June 07, 2010, 08:32:37 PM
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Okay I am trying to build a character whose the scion of a Demon Lord thats a Sorcerer.He's as a character morally grey, so he has no problem breaking the 7 LoM when he thinks it necessary.But that is as far I have gotten I not sure what sort of powers to give him, what his specialties are.Is he a necromancer, is he a more talented version of Binder, is he a master evocator, etc, etc.
So I need suggestions, are possibilities for him.Please note you can go fairly wild as I am playing a submerged game.
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Isn't the seventh law summoning outsiders? I feel like if that's his thing then he's going to be incredibly close to my PC. I think it would be cool to have similar minded sorcerers in a party but two guys that basically use the same exact powers seems a little boring.
Personally I like the master evocator idea.
[-3] Evocation (Fire, Earth, Air)
[-2] Refinement
[-3] Hellfire
[-1] Lawbreaker- First Law
But it's completely up to you.
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I'm interested in having a necromancer, with the way were going to be treating lawbreaking it shouldn't be to much of a problem putting one together.
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Have a necromancer/taxidermist! He can carry a rucksack full of dead animals around and treat them like his own gruesome version of pokemon.
"Dead badger, I choose you!"
Add house wards that animate dead bears and tigers, plus some dead dinosaurs, add in some dead monkeys with wings attached and then launch your army at your opponents :P
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Have a necromancer/taxidermist! He can carry a rucksack full of dead animals around and treat them like his own gruesome version of pokemon.
"Dead badger, I choose you!"
Add house wards that animate dead bears and tigers, plus some dead dinosaurs, add in some dead monkeys with wings attached and then launch your army at your opponents :P
Um yeah no...
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I'm interested in having a necromancer, with the way were going to be treating lawbreaking it shouldn't be to much of a problem putting one together.
Oh. Well that seems pretty straight forward...
[-3] Evocation
[-3] Thaumaturgy
[-2] Kemmlerian Necromancy
[-1] Lawbreaker
You don't have a lot of leeway if you want to be a necromancer. You have to use 8 refresh just to do it in the first place.
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Well, a Necromancer's actually easy enough. Just buy the Wizard package and Lawbreaker (Fifth) twice. Simple, easy, and totally worth it for a focused Necromancer.
Kemmlerian Necromancy is much more pure-evil than the regular variety, and can be acquired later if necessary.
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what would that look like though I having trouble picturing it...
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Well, a Necromancer's actually easy enough. Just buy the Wizard package and Lawbreaker (Fifth) twice. Simple, easy, and totally worth it for a focused Necromancer.
Kemmlerian Necromancy is much more pure-evil than the regular variety, and can be acquired later if necessary.
Yeah. But you're limited to necromancy and psychomancy at the speed of thaumaturgy. Which I personally think destroys the whole point of a "necromancer."
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Yeah. But you're limited to necromancy and psychomancy at the speed of thaumaturgy. Which I personally think destroys the whole point of a "necromancer."
I don't think so. After all, you don't see Grevane ever pull off necromancy at the speed of evocation in Dead Beat, and he seemed to get along fine.
It just means more prep work.
Don't forget that you'll need some way of maintaining a beat for the zombies.
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Actually we do he turns the security guard into a zombie remember?
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Have a necromancer/taxidermist! He can carry a rucksack full of dead animals around and treat them like his own gruesome version of pokemon.
"Dead badger, I choose you!"
Add house wards that animate dead bears and tigers, plus some dead dinosaurs, add in some dead monkeys with wings attached and then launch your army at your opponents :P
Oh my that just makes me think of Zombie Velociraptor Attack.
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Actually we do he turns the security guard into a zombie remember?
Well, no, we don't see him do it. IIRC, he only shows up with the guy as a zombie, but Harry and Butters have been in the examining room for a while, more than enough time for an experienced necromancer to pull off a thaumaturgic zombie-making.
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Yeah. But you're limited to necromancy and psychomancy at the speed of thaumaturgy. Which I personally think destroys the whole point of a "necromancer."
Uh...not really. Isn't the point of necromancy being able to perform effective necromancy, plus maybe having some zombie minions? I mean is the ability to raise them as an action or mind-rape people really necessary?
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Are ys. That is summoning and binding. Not necromancy. Kemmlerites can apply their necromancy bonus to similarly themed magic. If you wanted to be a focused undead summoner you'd take specializations and lawbreaker in summoning and binding. Not necromancy. And with only average power in necromancy you'd be a pretty silly necromancer. So again... kemmlerites are the only people That are necromancers in the classical sense.
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Dude, you can casually do most 'necromancy themed' magic with the use of Spirit Evocations and a bit of thematic window-dressing. You can't use an actual 'necromancy' specialization from Thaumaturgy, but so what? You can easily get all the cool death effects without it.
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Can you show me a kemmlerite, then what your favoring and from there we can see which is most effective.Please build them up equally not with a bias.
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Dude, you can casually do most 'necromancy themed' magic with the use of Spirit Evocations and a bit of thematic window-dressing. You can't use an actual 'necromancy' specialization from Thaumaturgy, but so what? You can easily get all the cool death effects without it.
Necromancy is a thaumaturgy specialization... the
example spell is Victor sells heart explosion. And you wouldn't be nearly as specialized with your way. You're just a wizard whose decent at summoning spirits and brute force attacks instead of a wizard who is excellent at all death related magics; aka a necromancer
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Can you show me a kemmlerite, then what your favoring and from there we can see which is most effective.Please build them up equally not with a bias.
I can in 30 min...on a phone.
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Are ys. That is summoning and binding. Not necromancy. Kemmlerites can apply their necromancy bonus to similarly themed magic. If you wanted to be a focused undead summoner you'd take specializations and lawbreaker in summoning and binding. Not necromancy. And with only average power in necromancy you'd be a pretty silly necromancer. So again... kemmlerites are the only people That are necromancers in the classical sense.
Close, but not exactly.
Necromancy falls under Thematic thaumaturgy, it is able to do anything that other schools of thaumaturgy can, only it must be necromantically flavored.
Examples:
Divination using dead mans eyeballs "See the last moments before death."
Summoning and Binding a spirit into a corpse "W000t, Zombies R Sweet."
Wards using Ghosts as the basis for the defense
Enchanted Items using the Fingerbones of little children
Etcetera.
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OK, the code did not work.
For the scion of an unnatural power, I'd give Evocation, sponsored magic (probably Hellfire) via an item of power to reflect the investment the Dark Power has in her, and Modular Abilities to reflect various supernatural abilities. If the Scion is human-looking or even mostly human, I'd give human guise or human form.
That way, you can reflect both the magical powers of her heritage, any special gifts and the physical aspects; Remember; angels can do pretty much whatever they want in some limits so modular abilities is a great idea.
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Whats that have to do with anything?
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Galt are you off your cell?
If so could you show me the two builds?
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Can you show me a kemmlerite, then what your favoring and from there we can see which is most effective.Please build them up equally not with a bias.
As this was originally meant for you DMW, if you care two could you show me the 2 builds?
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A Kemmlerian Necromancer is pretty difficult to play below refresh 11, 12 if your base is a wizard not a sorcerer.
SKILLS
(+5)Conviction, Lore
(+4)Discipline, Athletics
(+3)Alertness, Intimidate
(+2)Guns, Deceit, Rapport
(+1)Presence, Empathy, Fists, Performance
Stress: P OOOO M OOOO S OOO +1 Mild Mental
COST POWER
-3 Thaumaturgy
-3 Evocation
-2 Lawbreaker (First)
+2 Item of Power (Kemmler's Sacrificial Dagger)
-2 Kemmlerian Necromancy
-1 Refinement (Focus Item Slots)
Evocation Specializations:
Spirit (+1 Power)
Thaumaturgy Specializations:
Necromancy (+2 Control, +1 Complexity)
Focus Item Slots:
The Black Cane (Spirit +4 Offensive Power)
Kemmler's Sacrificial Knife (Necromancy +2 Control)
This guy can throw around 10 Shift Necromancy based spirit evocations with ease, 14 Shifts if he decided to take 4 mental stress, burn a fate point and supercharge his evocation. He is using necromancy more in the "I will snuff out your life" kind of way, not the "I will kill you with zombies", though since he has a first lawbreaker already maxed out, you could raise the corpses of say, wolves, as zombies (you'll have to do it thaumaturgy style and use some declarations), and you wont get a lawbreaker for that.
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In the game I'm playing were lax with the lawbreakers, and doesn't he need an item to maintain the beat like a drum?
EDIT: I'm more interested in a master of zombie hoards then I will kill you could you shouldn't me that?
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You dont need an item to maintain a beat, you could snap your fingers, hum a little tune, or tap dance. Any of that would do it, you just need to keep a beat. Hell, you could get some of those belly dancer finger symbols and use that.
For this character I recommend him thumping his walking cane (aka focus item) into the ground to make the beat, since thats a rather pimp way for him to do it.
Lax with lawbreakers how? Do you just not get them? If so this character becomes much more viable, and I'll have to re-stat him for you.
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In two parts, first is context to the story the other is forcing law breaker on you later.
BY context I mean if a char were to mind rape a kid for no good reason then yeah they they'd get a lawbreaker but if they do the same to a bad guy then its more or less waved.
The second is if they break the law they don't have to take a lawbreaker immediately, instead when they recieve more refresh they MUST take the corresponding LB and they cannot use it on anything else.
So lawbreaking turning this char into an NPC is not an item really.
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That item of power would only be +1. It's a small, concealable dagger.
And there's no real reason to bother with spirt focus items unless they are in defense. You can throw necromancy at the speed of evocation as a Kemmlerite so just replace "force push" with "death knell" and all of the sudden your just as good at offensive evocation as you are at controlling zombies.
Here's how I'd do it:
Powers:
[-2] Kemmler
[-3] Evocation
[-3] Thaumaturgy
[-1] Lawbreaker (Fifth Law)
Evocation Specializations
(water, spirit, earth) Spirit control +1
Thaumaturgy Specializations
necromancy control +2, necromancy complexity +1 (+3 and +2 when summoning undead)
Skills:
Superb: Conviction, Discipline
Great: Lore, Alertness
Good: Presence, Athletics
Fair: Weapons, Intimidation, Stealth
Average: Guns, Endurance, Deceit, Survival, Resources
Focus Items:
Charred Glaive (necromancy offensive control +2, necromancy offensive complexity +2)
with that you'll have 10 shifts of control and 9 shifts of power when summoning and binding undead, which will basically let you summon them on the fly for the price of a fate point and some stress, if not less. That way you're more specialized in what you wanted to be specialized in. You'll also have 9 shifts of control and 8 shifts of power when attacking with necromancy which is kind of ridiculous. You'll be able to have a weapon 9 rote that costs you two mental stress as long as you tie it to your focus item. Kind of silly, actually.
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How do you get those shifts?
Death Knell someone (supercharging evocation with necromancy)
5 conviction, +1 complexity from necromancy specialisation, +2 item = 8 shifts (lawbreaker is 5th and you aren't trying to ressurect people, only kill them-that's 1st)
5 discipline, +1 spirit control, +2 necromancy complexity, +2 item = 10 attack.
Summon Zombie (using lawbreaker with Thaumaturgy)
5 conviction, +1 complexity from necromancy specialisation, +2 item + 1 Lawbreaker = 9 shifts
5 discipline, +2 necromancy complexity, +2 item, +1 Lawbreaker = 10 shifts
So, it's 8 power 10 attack to kill people, 9 power 10 complexity to summon things. It's still strong but not 12/11 and 13/12.
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I have absolutely no idea. For some reason I was obviously using superb as +8... oh well. Thanks for the corrections. I edited it. And it's still pretty powerful. A weapon 9 for two mental stress and 10 shifts of summoning and binding power on the fly... You'll still be able to summon and bind a spirit to an dead body for a couple fate points and some stress and/or consequences.
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That item of power would only be +1. It's a small, concealable dagger.
And there's no real reason to bother with spirt focus items unless they are in defense. You can throw necromancy at the speed of evocation as a Kemmlerite so just replace "force push" with "death knell" and all of the sudden your just as good at offensive evocation as you are at controlling zombies.
Except you dont use complexity at all for thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. The Bonuses for it dont translate into extra shifts of power. You can use control (specifically via Kemmlerian Necromancy) instead of whatever bonuses to the element's control you are using to achieve the necromancy effect. So no, you arent quite as good at evocation as you are at calling up zombies (since you dont have any bonuses to your shifts of power for necromnacy based evocations), thats why I stacked it so high on Spirit Power, and Necromancy control.
Meh, the dagger can be as long as my forearm, then it'd work at +2.
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If you supercharge your necromantic attack spells, you can use Necromancy with your evocation bonuses if you could justify them being necromantic. I.e. a spell to eat the target's life-force would be both spirit attack and necromantic.
(at least that's how I think it works)
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Except you dont use complexity at all for thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. The Bonuses for it dont translate into extra shifts of power. You can use control (specifically via Kemmlerian Necromancy) instead of whatever bonuses to the element's control you are using to achieve the necromancy effect. So no, you arent quite as good at evocation as you are at calling up zombies (since you dont have any bonuses to your shifts of power for necromnacy based evocations), thats why I stacked it so high on Spirit Power, and Necromancy control.
Meh, the dagger can be as long as my forearm, then it'd work at +2.
1. That's not how I'm reading it. That's two separate aspects of the power. Were that the case you'd need evocation just to use Seelie and Unseelie magic, since you can do entropomancy at the speed of evocation. You can either supercharge your evocation with necromancy by using the necromancy control bonus instead or you can cast psychomancy and necromancy at the speed of evocation which are just statted and cast like a thaumaturgy spell only it happens at the speed of evocation.
2. True. I'd prefer a kama though in that case. More necromatic feeling in my opinion than a large dagger/short sword.
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So what am I looking at?
The math makes my head hurt.
What is the best way to have a badass necromancer?
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They're not much different. Even if I'm wrong I wouldn't externalize kemmler necro. Maybe a lawbreaker or two. There's actually an example of that (blackstaff)
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So what should I go with, keeping in mind that I want zombie hoard master who is also pretty good at evocation.Also have to fit this into a scion character.
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[-3] evocation (spirit +1)
[-3] thaumaturgy (necro complexity +1)
[-2] kemmler
[+1] father's dagger;
[-1] first law breaker
[-1] fifth law breaker
Focus items: +2 necromancy control, +2 offensive spirit power
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So what does that give me, and what are my limitations with this build?
Also would I be better of with a -2 for 5th law instead of a -1 on the 1st?
PS would I be better off I didn't bother with scion?
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Scion is fine... it just adds flavor and a different high concept.
You get 9 shifts of control and power for one mental stress for both summoning undead and necro-enhanced offensive spirit meant to kill. If you want summon undead on the fly I'd do...
[+2] father's drum
[-3] fifth law breaker
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What kind of focus items would be thematically appropriate you think?
I am thinking a black iron cane covered in runes with a silver knob, but there has to be something cooler.
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Okay now I have a build, now I just need the stresses for this character and a couple rotes...
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Well the fact you want a demonic cane for a scion of a demon suggests to me one of the item of power's powers should be mark of power. Plus it seems pretty silly to be a scion of a demon and not have that anyway. You're concept is "getting out from under his father's thumb," after all. Here's how I'd build him.
High Concept: Kemmlerite Bastard of a Demon Lord
Trouble: Under My Father's Thumb
Powers:
[-3] Evocation (Spirit Power +1)
[-3] Thaumaturgy (Necromancy Control +1)
[-2] Kemmlerian Necromancy
[+2] Demonic Pimp Cane;
[-1] Law Breaker (Fifth Law)
[-1] Marked by Power
[-1] Demonic Copilot
Skills:
Superb: Conviction, Discipline
Great: Lore, Deceit
Good: Endurance, Presence
Fair: Alertness, Athletics, Indimidation
Average: Weapons, Guns, Contacts, Resources, Burglary
Focus Items:
Silver Coin (+2 Necromancy control, +2 offensive spirit power)
Rotes:
Spirit Shield- Block 5- one mental stress
Death Bolt- Weapon 6 (tied to Silver Coin)- no mental stress
Soul Steal- Weapon 9 (tied to Silver Coin)- two mental stress
Gate to Hell- Weapon 12 (tied to Silver Coin, Demonic Co-Pilot)- 2 fallout, 4 mental stress
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Do i see this right ? you put the lawbreaker on the cane ?
How would that work? Lawbreaker is something you get from twisting your soul... you can't get rid of it simply by getting rid of an item... I would not allow this to be on an item of power.
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Well...
1. This is a submerged las vegas game with really loose lawbreaking laws
2. This is a GMPC in a game that is supposed to be an extremely overpowered submerged game
3. The item is completely consistent with Dresden Lore. The Blackstaff is clearly an item that gets lawbreaker powers applied to it instead of its user when it breaks the law.
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What can this character build do, is it more effective then the previous one?That is can I still summon zombies on the fly?
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Mechanically, the character works fine and does indeed allow you to summon zombies on the fly.
The Cane would need Lawbreaker [-2], not just [-1], to work properly as a defense against gaining it yourself (which is a bit iffy mechanically...but you are the GM, so no big deal), so I'd ditch one of the other powers to pay for it.
I'm in a bit of a hurry, and don't have time to look over the Rotes in detail...but they look a little iffy at first glance.
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I can make the lawbreaker -2 get rid of demonic copilot and rewrite the rotes problem solved.
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The rotes wouldn't change except for the last one, which assumes you're in "demonic co-pilot" mode.
You have +5 conviction and +5 discipline
Necromancy control bonus is +1 from Kemmler, +2 from focus item, +1 from specialization, or +4
Spirit offensive Power bonus is +1 from specialization, +2 from focus item
Spirit defensive Power bonus is +1 from specialization
So for control shifts you have 5+4 as long as you're using necromancy influenced spirit attacks
For power shifts you have 5+3 as long as you're using offensive spirit power.
So your rotes can be 9 shifts of control if they're necromatic and offensive and 8 shifts of power as long as they're tied to the focus item. So the rotes are all fine.
As for summoning undead on the fly, you'll have
necromancy control +1, +1, +2, +2
necromancy complexity +1, +2
so you'll have a base control of 11 and a base power of 8. According to the book summoning and binding should take between 16 and 24 shifts of power. So yes. For one or two fate points and probably a 4+ mental stress attack on yourself and a little fallout you'll be able to summon undead on the fly.
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how effective would you rate this character in combat assuming he has a half dozen zombie minions surrounding him?
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Let's put it this way; the Harry Dresden in Storm Front writeup has Power 8 control 7 for fire spells, Power 9, Control 8 for when he aims to kill. This build can make effects 2 shifts stronger for normal spells and 3 shifts stronger for Lawbreaking stuff.
Yep, it's pretty strong. Not the most powerful combat-wise but one of the strongest for overall use. Remember, once you make and bind a zombie and assuming you put enough shifts for long-term control, there's no limit to how many of them you could have.
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And zombie win, especially if you have lots of them what with each being like the terminator.
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Naah. If an enterprising young wizard calls a 15-shift effect (taking backlash to control plus aspects), he could fry 3 zones for weapon 9 at control 10 or 12. If your undead army happens to be in those zones, bye-bye. Luckily, said wizard can only do that once.
That's why you keep half of the zombies as reserves and only send them in in waves to wear your opponent down.
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Galt, can you help me rewrite my last rote?
Also for the plot, perhaps my characters father is the demon yours made a deal with.
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Galt, can you help me rewrite my last rote?
Also for the plot, perhaps my characters father is the demon yours made a deal with.
Yeah. Like that idea. I'd probably make your rote a high shift maneuver like Cowls hex fog only it Applies a scene aspect that makes people more terrified of undead.
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Also how do you account for stronger undead, what if for a guest star I steal a mummy.With it 4000 years old, to quote dresden it would have power, power in spades.
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You just put a lot more power into the ritual. And it will be a ritual-nobody could raise a mummy ten times as old as the oldest human zombie we've seen with a thaumaturgy as evocation.
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Of coarse, I plan for the mummy to be my characters ace in the hole.Sort of the strongest of his minions.
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Problem is, a 4000 year undead should have plenty of willpower. Will you be able to control?
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Yeah. As a player I'd be forced to compel his cntrl against your discipline and you'd lose him and he'd attack us.
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Actually according to Dead Beat, the older a zombie is the easier it is to control.Being so old controlling it once raised will not even be hard.
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That's not how dfrpg works though nor should it. Its a straight up power- control battle.
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The game should match cannon as closely as possible imo.
How could this be handled to do that without hand waving it or doing something equally cheesy.
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The game should match cannon as closely as possible imo.
How could this be handled to do that without hand waving it or doing something equally cheesy.
Harry Dresden is not a necromancer, and the White Council does not allow research into necromancy. They were wrong - Sue was easy to control due to being a skeleton of a simple creature imbued with the wonder and love of millions of children over years and years and years, and also due to the coming Darkhallow making necromancy really easy in Chicago, but that's a fluke and a one-off. Any REAL necromancer could tell you that old and powerful undead are incredibly difficult to control.
There. Canon-friendly solution that avoids players having absurdly powerful minions. DFRPG is really not designed for pets (so few games are) so I'd avoid letting them muck up gameplay in balance. Actually, I'd make Zombie Hordes into scene aspects you'd place with a maneuver and let you use them for maneuvers and Discipline-based attacks, but I wouldn't bother statting up individual zombies at all, and I'd make their mechanical effects based entirely off you.
This might sound disappointing, but it's more fun then you think; imagine using a high-powered magic maneuver (say 9 shifts, called Night of the Living Dead) to hit a zone with Zombies, More Zombies, and Crawling With Zombies - then next turn casting Undead Crush, tagging all three Aspects for a +6 bonus, which lets you hit HARD. You can use your imagination and have a lot of fun with spellcasting-as-undead control, but there's no balanced way in my humble opinion to have an actual zombie horde under player control.
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Peoples what do you think of this solution?
Personally I like it it, but I still see having a handful of zombies (Like around 5 or so) to be alright.What could be a nice compromise between the two options.
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Personally, I'd allow zombies as legitimate minions, with stats as per the book, and older ones being allowed to take more Consequences but probably nothing more than that barring EXTREME age.
I'd say you can't readily keep more than 5 or 6 around as a regular thing (though you can pull out more for special occasions), just due to the logistics of keeping them all under control in an isolated area and filled with your magic.
For corpses that do have extreme age, I'd allow higher stats, and I wouldn't make them harder to control...I'd just make them extremely difficult to acquire. I might allow a PC to start with one (though probably not), but there would be an Epic Quest involved in getting another corpse of appropriate age, and enemies would target the badass zombie of doom right off the bat.
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DMW could you draw up a build for me that combines Viatos's concepts with your own using Galts build (on pg.3) as a general reference?
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Sure, here's how I'd do a Horde of Zombies as a series of spells:
I'd do Night of the Living Dead as a Two Aspect Maneuver on the scene with three shifts of Duration. This would be a 9 shift maneuver dealing you a 2 Mental Stress hit.
I'd then do an 6 shift Block (call it Undead Grab) to that entire zone with two shifts of Duration that requires an Undead Aspect to work and deals you 1 Mental stress. It'd keep anyone from attacking or leaving the Zone.
I'd then use Undead Crush, which would be a Weapon 9 attack to the entire zone that dealt you a 2 stress Mental Hit, and required an Undead Aspect to work. You can thus do it two times to that zone (tagging the second Aspect once, then spending a Fate Point, or gaining a point of Sponsor Debt, for the second).
This procedure accurately reflects being grabbed and ripped apart by a horde of Zombies. It also fills up your Mental Stress track, requires 4 rounds total, and will really kill most things (so beware of Lawbreaker for murder).
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Much thanks, you've been a big help, earlier you said the rotes look iffy but you didn't have the time to look at them, assuming you do now, could you check them for me, then pull everything together into a single build?BTW, I hand an idea for a rote where a zombie takes a metaphysical "bullet" for me.
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High Concept: Kemmlerite Bastard of a Demon Lord
Trouble: Under My Father's Thumb
Powers:
[-3] Evocation (Spirit Power +1)
[-3] Thaumaturgy (Necromancy Control +1)
[-2] Kemmlerian Necromancy
[+2] Demonic Pimp Cane;
[-2] Law Breaker (Fifth Law)
[-1] Marked by Power
Skills:
Superb: Conviction, Discipline
Great: Lore, Deceit
Good: Endurance, Presence
Fair: Alertness, Athletics, Indimidation
Average: Weapons, Guns, Contacts, Resources, Burglary
Focus Items:
Silver Bracelet (+2 Necromancy control, +2 offensive spirit power) (Note: A coin is ring sized, and thus too small)
Rotes:
Zombie Sacrifice - Block 8 or Armor 4 to defend yourself - One Mental Stress
Soul-Ripping - Weapon 8 attack - One Mental Stress
Night of the Living Dead - 9 shift Maneuver (Two Aspects on the scene with three shifts of Duration) - Two Mental Stress
Undead Crush - Weapon 9 attack to the entire zone that requires an Undead Aspect to work - Two Mental Stress
All require Silver Bracelet.
Other Useful Spells:
Death Bolt - Weapon 6 attack - Zero Mental Stress (Note: Only works if you're using Evocation Spin rules.)
Undead Grab - 6 shift Block to an entire zone (keeps anyone from attacking or leaving the Zone) with two shifts of Duration that requires an Undead Aspect to work. - One Mental Stress
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DMW YOU ARE AMAZING!!!
I salute you sir.
One final thing, then I'll stop bugging you, are there any major weaknesses to this build and just how effective would you call it?
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DMW YOU ARE AMAZING!!!
I salute you sir.
One final thing, then I'll stop bugging you, are there any major weaknesses to this build and just how effective would you call it?
Weaknesses are the same as every caster: you got 4-6 exchanges to win or you're dead, you can't get attacked since you can't afford toughness/recovery, and God help you if you're up against characters that can deal mental stress (like Red and White Court vampires).
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Thank you Viatos, that was enlightening, now where does the build shine?
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If it can get the combo I suggested above rolling, it'll kill just about any Zone worth of enemies you'd care to name. Other than that, it shines where any Wizard shines: when they have time to prepare. With prep and ritual magic, the character (and anyone with Thaumaturgy) can do almost anything.
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Actually according to Dead Beat, the older a zombie is the easier it is to control.Being so old controlling it once raised will not even be hard.
I'd say "the older the zombie, the easier it is to assess and declare aspects on".
Likewise the more interesting the zombie...
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Wait what are the stresses of this character?
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Mental: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence)
Physical: OOOO
Social: OOOO
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Okay I so I was redoing this character for a 16 refresh 60 points game capped at fantastic.Can someone check this over for me please?
High Concept: Kemmlerite Bastard of a Demon Lord
Trouble: Under My Father's Thumb
Skills:
Fantastic: Conviction, Discipline
Superb: Rapport, Endurance, Lore
Great: Deceit, Alertness, Contacts
Good: Resources, Intimidation, Athletics
Fair: Fists, Guns, Burglary
Average: Scholarship, Craftsmanship, Driving, Mights, Survival
Powers:
[-3] Evocation (Spirit Power +1)
[-3] Thaumaturgy (Necromancy Control +1)
[-2] Kemmlerian Necromancy
[-1] The Sight
[-0] Soulgaze
[-0] Wizards Constitution
[-1] Ghost Speaker
[-1] Marked by Power
[+2] Demonic Pimp Cane
[-2] Law Breaker (Fifth Law)
[-2] Law Breaker (First Law)
[-2] Law Breaker (Third Law)
Total Refresh: 1
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^Bump^
I really need some opinions on this guys, please lend me a hand if you will...
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Assuming your focus items are +2 power +2 control for necromancy and you supercharge your evocation with necromancy, you have:
Offense Power: 6 +1 specialisation, +2 focus , +2 lawbreaker, +1 kmmlerian necromancy -> 12 shifts
Offense Control: 6 +2 focus, +2 lawbreaker, +1 kemmlerian necromancy -> 11 attack
Not bad-but for a refresh 16 game it's not very strong either.
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Umm, I have lawbreaker for both 1st and 5th law at -3, so long as the evocation is "death" themed with the intent to kill, it gets a bonus of 6.
In any case, how would you handle it?
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It's hard to say, Tbora. I have been trying to build something similar to be one of main behind the scenes evil NPC for the game I am going to be GMing. Yours looks like it works for your concept as well as anything I have come up with. There are a couple quirks that seem off to me, but that are probably essential for your build. One thing that strikes me about your build is that it has never taken refinement, which seems out of place considering everything else it has picked up. It seems odd that a character would have developed ghost speaker, marked by power, and picked-up more lawbreaker stunts but never try to improve their base magic. On the other hand, from a power-gaming perspective, I cannot do better than what you did if sheer offensive punch and casting him as a sorcerer and not a wizard does partially justify the lack of interest in acquiring more knowledge.
My version (which does not have to worry about negative refresh since it is by definition, an evil NPC) does not have the demonic pimp cane because I am leery of allowing lawbreakers inside an item of power (the Blackstaff seems to me to be almost one of a kind). To make up for it, I dropped marked by power (my evil wizard does not need this but you do), ghost speaker, (ditto) and reduced the lawbreaker stunts to -2 each (just like Grevane from OW: 155) and added 3 levels of refinement in order to turbocharge his necromancy and give him some defensive depth. I also wanted to give him some sort of defensive option since he almost has to have enemies (e.g. the White Council views him as kill on sight), hence the item slots. In the same vein, I gave him worldwalking instead of transformation to ensure that, with his Great Lore and Superb Discipline, he could open portals to the Nevernever in a hurry if he needed to escape with no prep (YS:283 base complexity is Superb so he can do it as is possible and save the fate point that your version would need to do it for a failed discipline role to open the portal in one exchange). My build is as follows (I did not change the skills):
High Concept: Kemmlerite Bastard of a Demon Lord
Trouble: Under My Father's Thumb
Skills:
Fantastic: Conviction, Discipline
Superb: Rapport, Endurance, Lore
Great: Deceit, Alertness, Contacts
Good: Resources, Intimidation, Athletics
Fair: Fists, Guns, Burglary
Average: Scholarship, Craftsmanship, Driving, Mights, Survival
Powers:
[-3] Evocation (Spirit Power +2, Spirit Control +1)
[-3] Thaumaturgy (Necromancy Control +2, Worldwalking Complexity +1)
[-2] Kemmlerian Necromancy
[-1] The Sight
[-0] Soulgaze
[-0] Wizards Constitution
[-3] Refinement (the added specialties listed above plus an extra focus item granting +1 Defensive Spirit Control and two enchanted item slots Granting block four or Armor:2 three times per session [2 enchanted item slots).
[+2] Demonic Pimp Cane
[-2] Law Breaker (Fifth Law)
[-2] Law Breaker (First Law)
[-1] Marked by power
Total Refresh: 1
My version can throw out 11 shifts of necromancy (13 if trying to kill). Yours can do 11/14 shifts but does not have the ability to do much of anything else whereas mine can also dish erect a Legendary shield using spirit for times when your zombies are not available. Your eggshell armed with a hammer version, by contrast is a better offensive threat, but cannot defend itself at all if surprised (it takes 2 exchanges to activate your version's necromantic defense).
P.S. Your version, because it has superb endurance, should have an extra mild physical consequence.
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I had a whole long thing, but jalrin's revision covers it.
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Can you post your whole long thing so I can get your take DMW (Or atleast give me the cliff notes at which yours differ from his?)
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Lawbreaker is a stunt. Stunt bonuses don't stack.
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I'm almost certain its not.
It (lawbreakers) dont show up in the stunt section of the books character templates.
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Lawbreaker is a stunt. Stunt bonuses don't stack.
Actually, it's a Power, and they very much do.
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I talked to tbora last night and after finding out more about what he wanted, revised my revision to his original concept. At his request, I am posting it here.
High Concept: Kemmlerite Bastard of a Demon Lord
Trouble: Under My Father's Thumb
Skills:
Fantastic: Conviction, Discipline
Superb: Endurance, Lore
Great: Alertness, Intimidation, Athletics
Good: Resources, Contacts, Deceit, Presence
Fair: Fists, Guns, Burglary, Rapport
Average: Scholarship, Craftsmanship, Driving, Might, Survival
Powers:
[-3] Evocation (Spirit Power +2, Spirit Control +1)
[-3] Thaumaturgy (Necromancy Control +2, Worldwalking Control +1)
[-2] Kemmlerian Necromancy
[-1] The Sight
[-0] Soulgaze
[-0] Wizards Constitution
[-3] Refinement
[-2] Law Breaker (Fifth Law)
[-2] Law Breaker (First Law)
Total Refresh: -16
Note that due to the changes that have been made to the campaign concept, there might be some spare refresh to play with. If so, I would recommend either a stunt (I like stunts and think a stunt or two would be good for most characters- see Grevane in Our World), Cloak of Shadows (it fits the dark theme well), or add more refinement to broaden his abilities. Because of the degree to which his combat power had been turbocharged, the only way I see to enhance his combat effectiveness would be more item slots to raise his improve current Block 4 Armor 2 four times a session by giving it more uses and/or improving it to Block 8 armor four four times a session. I also reworked the skills to improve its stress tracks and to emphasize some the skills that I thought would be more important (I re-prioritized the social skills to the more hostile variety on the theory that a Kemmlerite is going to be sufficiently hated that the soft sell would be hard to use).
I also took out the Pimp Cane, which seemed like it was asking for trouble (everybody who did not want to kill him for being a necromancer is going to want to kill him to stake the cane) and paid for it by eliminating the Third lawbreaker stunt, which did not fit with the rest of the concept (this Kemmlerite is more like Grevane than Corpsetaker, and so would not benefit from breaking that law).
This was the best I can do. I still think it will be difficult to play. While this character has Senior Council level attack evocation powers, its powers in most other areas are about on par with what Deadmanwalking's versions of Elaine Mallory and Carlos Ramirez. It certainly cannot compete in anything but pure combat with its peer wizard builds like Morgan or Luccio but it is the best that can be done with this concept and refresh level.
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Yeah that looks good and fun.
For Items I'd go with the following:
Demonic Pimp Cane [+2 Offensive Control and +1 Offensive Power with Spirit]
Protective Item (8 shift Block or Armor 4, up to 5 times per session) [6 Enchanted Item Slots]
That'll give you only 8 shift Evocation defensively, 9 for 2 shift Mental Stress hits. Offensively it'll give you an 11 Control (13 to kill) at Weapon: 9. The protective Item also gives you a solid, high powered, reflexive defense.
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Now I need some good rotes, looking at it I have 5 to play around with.
So I want a zombie creation rote, a night of the living dead maneuver, undead crush redone (to go with new stats), a shield to protect him, and a good death style evocation maybe soul reave or some such.
Can you help me with this DMW, your the best I know for this sort of thing.
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Well, assuming you want Zombie Creation as a Scene Aspect Creation rote:
Night of the Living Dead: 10 Shift Maneuver, places 2 Sticky Aspects (Surrounded By Zombies!, and Zombie Horde!) on each person in one entire Zone individually. Gives a 2 Stress Mental Hit.
Zombie Grapple: 10 Shift Effect, places a Block 6 on everyone in an entire Zone for three exchanges and again gives a 2 Stress Mental Hit.
Ripped Apart By Zombies: Weapon: 7 attack, on everyone in a Zone. Usually you will Tag both Zombie Aspects on this attack, making it a 17 shift attack and killing almost anybody. Gives a 1 Stress Mental hit.
Death Bolt: Weapon: 9 attack on a single target. Deals a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
Shield of Souls: 9 shift Block, deals a 2 Stress Mental Hit. Usually extended for 8 rounds the next exchange if it's done at all.
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Well I was thinking more along the lines off a rote to create a zombie minion on the fly.I want him able to summon his zombies in a hurry if need be.Possibly get rid of Zombie Grapple and change it out with minion creator?With Kemmlerian he can do it at the speed of evocation so its possible.
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Making a Zombie is actually two separate actions, both depending on the power of the Zombie, the first you need no Rote for a basic zombie, the second one could be built as follows:
Zombie Binding: 10 shift Zombie binding to raise a corpse minion for one scene. Deals a 2 Mental Stress hit.
And I'd skip Ripped Apart By Zombies instead of Zombie Grapple, it's already so Control heavy having it as a Rote is unnecessary, just note that that's what you do after the other two.
Long term Zombies are still gonna take a Thaumaturgy ritual to do.
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you could try a (long) duration evocation effect that does stuff a zombie can do.
For example, you can summon up a power 4, duration 6 evocation effect that does 'whatever a zombie can do'. And have attacks against the 'zombie' reduce it's base duration, or something.
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Mass Zombie
Necromancy as Evocation (supercharged) 10 shifts, tag aspect (nearby corpses)
You raise every corpse nearby as a crude zombie you can control, awakening a quick but short-lived army of the dead.
Effect: every humanoid corpse in one zone becomes a 5 refresh zombie and is controlled by a strength 5 binding. Such zombies typically only have Living Dead, Inhuman Toughness and Inhuman Strength and 20 skill points in skills appropriate for zombies. The spell creates the zombies and controls them but the control only lasts for one exchange. Unless the caster calls up additional power for duration in the very next exchange, the zombies are free to rampage (bad).
Notes: this spell assumes that 5 shifts could call a 5 refresh creature and another 5 shifts could control any zombie, since zombies are practically mindless, rolling mental skills at (probably) mediocre. With a binding of 5, any zombie rolling at mediocre would not escape... until you ran out of power.
Zombie Legion
Necromancy as Evocation (supercharged) 14 shifts, tag aspect (nearby corpses), invoke 2 aspects.
You raise every corpse nearby as a strong zombie you can control, awakening a quick but short-lived army of the dead.
Effect: every humanoid corpse in three zones becomes a 9 refresh zombie and is controlled by a strength 5 binding. Such zombies typically have Living Dead, Supernatural Toughness, Inhuman Strength, Inhuman Speed and 35 skill points in skills appropriate for zombies. The spell creates the zombies and controls them but the control only lasts for one exchange. Unless the caster calls up additional power for duration in the very next exchange, the zombies are free to rampage (bad).
Notes: as per Mass Zombie only a lot more and a lot stronger zombies. Requires invoking or tagging a "Necromancer" high concept plus another aspect, usually costing the caster Fate points and significant Backlash. Plus, it requires three zones worth of corpses so either a major battlefield or a mass grave or a graveyard.
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Both of those assume 1 Complexity per Refresh, and don't deal in Duration at all. Neither of those are the official rules. I'm not going to argue that they're bad rules, but they are not how the Zombie spell officially works. At all.
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Calling stuff works as a magical equivalent of Contacts, right? Would a Contacts roll of 5 allow you to get the help of a 5-refresh character? I'd say yes.
As for duration, minimum duration for all effects is one round (except for attacks, which are instantaneous). The caster calls up extra power for duration at the very next exchange getting more mental stress in the process. If he doesn't, his zombie horde goes FUBAR and he gets eaten by the zombies he just made.
EDIT:
I just read up on making zombies again. Considering that a Zombie doesn't have much in the way of conviction (mediocre or average), getting 4 shifts over its conviction is 5 shifts to call, 5 shifts to bind most of the time. Considering that even Sue, a 17 refresh beast of a zombie, has mediocre conviction, it's still 10 shifts total to animate. My spell is actually costlier in the end-and usually balanced given that a 20-shift megablast could easily do collateral damage comparable to a small zombie horde.
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Summoning stuff does indeed work like the Contacts rules, I didn't bother to Rote that because it's pathetically easy (Complexity 6 total for the stuff we're talking about...8 to do it to a Zone). Binding it, contrariwise, uses the Combat rules.
Specifically, you need to Take Something Out to bind it. That's a minimum of 3 (more likely 4 for Average Conviction) shifts of Power more than you're using.
So in short, you need 6 (it's Conviction+5) to beat Conviction for sure, then 4 to beat Mental Stress and Take It Out. So 10 shifts (12 to do it to a Zone). Plus more for duration if you want to keep it that way (though you're right that being able to do it as Evocation allows you to pump more power into Duration next turn).
That's why it's a two-step process.
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Even Sue has all mental skills at Mediocre. So a mental track of 2. In addition, zombies are typically nameless NPCs unless you raise someone like Sue so no conditions for them. Third, your own control roll for the spell isn't going to be mediocre. You are definitely going to generate some extra shifts from your control roll since we're using Combat rules and an Evocation instead of a ritual. And last, the chance that the zombie rolls a +4 is 1/256 so out of 256 zombies, you are going to have one uncontrolled. I don't think that's a problem
So, if you roll just enough and don't generate any extra shifts, you need 7 to bind a common zombie mook, 5 or less to summon it, +2 to zone the effect. That's 10 shifts, tag the "nearby corpses" aspect because the spell needs dead bodies and the "contituous drumbeat" aspect because you usually need the drumbeat (or simply spend a Fate point) and you do it on the entire zone.
To control zombies equivalent to secondary NPCs, you need +6 shifts to your spell to bind them. (they resist up to moderate consequence)
To control Sue the Zombie Tyrannosaurus, you need another +16 shifts because she has full consequences and needs a better contacts roll. That's a total spell of 36 shifts which will be a ritual unless you are a big-ass 30 refresh necromancer. (7 skill, 6 focus, 5 specialization, 1 necromancy, 3 Lawbreaker, 2 tagged aspects, 10 mental stress and 10 backlash)
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Um, not quite. Binding Spells don't get a Weapon Rating...whether they're used as Evocation or not.
You can indeed drop it to 7 (Conviction 0+4+3) if you assume Mediocre and don't want to really play it as safe as possible, but that's as low as it goes, and legitimately a little risky.
What you're talking about would, I think, actually cost two more shifts (I'm pretty sure you'd have to pay for Zone Wide on both effects separately)...and Aspects don't help with channeling Power. A 14 shift effect would cause him a 5 shift Mental Stress hit, and a 16 shift one a 7 shift hit. Either way it's more than he usually wants to be doing unless it's an emergency...and certainly more than he wants in a Rote.
Now, it's true I neglected to add the Zone Wide thing on the spell I did, and possible I overstated the needed minimum effect a little (though I'll note I did so literally by the book, see p. 301), but you're underselling the difficulty quite a bit.
Here's a revised version. Actually here's two, the first is cheap and counts on he Zombies having Mediocre Conviction, the second accounts for Conviction scores up to Average:
Zombie Horde Binding:10 shifts. 8 shift Zombie binding to raise every corpse in the Zone as a minion for one scene . Deals a 2 Mental Stress hit.
Zombie Horde Binding: 12 shifts. 10 shift Zombie binding to raise every corpse in the Zone as a minion for one scene . Deals a 4 Mental Stress hit.
In either case, you need to Summon the spirits to possess the zombies first (an 8 shift effect at most), and can add duration later if you so desire.
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Upon reflection, and for simplicity, here's what I'd do totalled up:
Items:
Demonic Pimp Cane [+1 Offensive Control and +2 Offensive Power with Spirit]*
Protective Item (8 shift Block or Armor 4, up to 5 times per session) [6 Enchanted Item Slots]
Rotes:
Night of the Living Dead: 10 Shift Maneuver, places 2 Sticky Aspects (Surrounded By Zombies!, and Zombie Horde!) on each person in one entire Zone individually. Gives a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
Zombie Grapple: 10 Shift Effect, places a Block 6 on everyone in an entire Zone for three exchanges and again gives a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
Death Bolt: Weapon: 10 attack on a single target. Deals a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
Shield of Souls: 9 shift Block, deals a 2 Stress Mental Hit. Usually extended for 8 rounds the next exchange if it's done at all.
Zombie Horde Binding:10 shifts. 8 shift Zombie binding to raise every corpse in the Zone as a minion for one scene . Deals a 1 Mental Stress hit.
OR
Zombie Horde Binding: 12 shifts. 10 shift Zombie binding to raise every corpse in the Zone as a minion for one scene . Deals a 3 Mental Stress hit.**
Other Notable Effects
Ripped Apart By Zombies: Weapon: 8 attack, on everyone in a Zone. Usually you will Tag both Night of the Living Dead Aspects on this attack, making it a 16 shift attack and killing almost anybody. Gives a 1 Stress Mental hit.
Zombie Summoning: 8 shift effect. Summons up Zombie Spirits, one for every corpse in the Zone. Gives a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
*That'll give you only 8 shift Evocation defensively, 9 for 2 shift Mental Stress hits. Offensively it'll give you an 10 Control (12 to kill) at Weapon: 10. The protective Item also gives you a solid, high powered, reflexive defense. I upped the Power and lowered the Control on the Cane to reduce Mental Stress.
**I'd go with the second, you can afford it. And remember on either you can extend the Duration with a subsequent Evocation...using the Thaumaturgy duration table.
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And here is the finished product, just to round it out, I changed it to fit an 18 refresh game.In order to make his law breaking bonuses +3 for killing and zombie raising I gave him a single Law Breaker for the Seventh Law as it fits his character concept and gives him the Trouble Comes in Three's benefit 8)
High Concept: Kemmlerite Bastard of a Demon Lord
Trouble: Under My Father's Thumb
Other: Student of Kemmler; Master Necromancer; The Council Must Fall!; I Will Conquer Death!; Paranoid Beyond Belief
Skills:
Fantastic: Conviction, Discipline
Superb Endurance, Lore
Great Alertness, Intimidation, Athletics
Good Resources, Contacts, Deceit, Presence
Fair Fists, Guns, Burglary, Rapport
Average: Scholarship, Craftsmanship, Driving, Might, Survival
Powers:
[-3] Evocation (Spirit Power +2, Spirit Control +1)
[-3] Thaumaturgy (Necromancy Control +2, Worldwalking Control +1)
[-2] Kemmlerian Necromancy
[-1] The Sight
[-0] Soulgaze
[-0] Wizards Constitution
[-3] Refinement
[-2] Law Breaker (Fifth Law)
[-2] Law Breaker (First Law)
[-1] Law Breaker (Seventh Law)
Total Refresh: -17
Items:
Kemmler's Ritual Drum [+1 Offensive Control and +2 Offensive Power with Spirit]
Sacrificial Gauntlet (8 shift Block or Armor 4, up to 5 times per session) [6 Enchanted Item Slots]
Rotes:
Night of the Living Dead: 10 Shift Maneuver, places 2 Sticky Aspects (Surrounded By Zombies!, and Zombie Horde!) on each person in one entire Zone individually. Gives a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
Zombie Grapple: 10 Shift Effect, places a Block 6 on everyone in an entire Zone for three exchanges and again gives a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
Death Bolt: Weapon: 10 attack on a single target. Deals a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
Shield of Souls: 9 shift Block, deals a 2 Stress Mental Hit. Usually extended for 8 rounds the next exchange if it's done at all.
Zombie Horde Binding: 12 shifts. 10 shift Zombie binding to raise every corpse in the Zone as a minion for one scene . Deals a 3 Mental Stress hit.
Other Notable Effects
Ripped Apart By Zombies: Weapon: 8 attack, on everyone in a Zone. Usually you will Tag both Night of the Living Dead Aspects on this attack, making it a 17 shift attack and killing almost anybody. Gives a 1 Stress Mental hit.
Zombie Summoning: 8 shift effect. Summons up Zombie Spirits, one for every corpse in the Zone. Gives a 1 Stress Mental Hit.
Stresses:
Mental: OOOO
Physical: OOOO
Social: OOOO
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With your extra Lawbreaker, all your to-hit numbers rise by one, making "Ripped Apart by Zombies a 17 shift attack instead of 16. Other than that, looks good to me.