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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: CMEast on May 31, 2010, 06:24:24 PM
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I've created a character with the high concept 'Wizard-Blooded Martial Artist' who, as a focussed practitioner, has unlocked spirit magic through his martial arts training (think 'Chi/Qi'). I imagined him using his spirit powers to increase his prowess in combat, recreating classic martial art moments like breaking cement blocks with his bare hands, incredible feats of dexterity and speed etc.
This question would also be applicable for anyone that wants to use their magic to generally improve their fist, weapon or gun skills. Does your wizard create claws of flame? Does his sword drip with frost magic? Can he use air magic to speed his arrows or earth magic to magnetise his opponents so that bullets aim with deadly accuracy?
I've thought about a few possible ways to make it work, but none of them are ideal.
1. Treat every fist attack as a separate evocation. This works well because you can decide how much power you'll use for each attack round, but a) you suffer mental stress every time you punch/stab/whatever which doesn't match my intent and b) where does the roll for fists come in?
2. Evoke a spell with duration to give a +something weapon bonus to damage. Most of the power goes in to duration, not awful as these aren't supposed to be awesome attacks that knock opponents out in one blow, just enhanced versions of normal attacks. However the need to top the spell up mid-combat again doesn't match my image of the ability.
3. Treat it as a 'navel-gazing' manoeuvre that again gives a +something to your weapon. This fits really well apart from the fact that it'll cost fate points after the first use.
4. Take it as a stunt/supernatural feat ala 'Claws'. Ok, so that's an easy way to get the desired effect, but then it costs extra refresh when it should really be something that can be replicated by a wizard.
So let me know if you can think of a better way to create this idea in the DFRPG, or tell me if I'm missing something. I'm not looking for it to be over-powered, just practical.
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You could always do Spirit Maneuvers to place aspects on you that you'd de a free invoke on, such as "Claws of flame", if you had an awe-full lot of mojo you would get to double stacking aspects like "Frost glazed Hand" and "Spirit chanrged Arm" etc. Also using ritual effects to change yourself adding claws or other supernatural creature features including strength, speed, etc. are in the rules.
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5) Treat it as a potion. There is already precedence for this in the 'hanky of light' effect. You can make it look however you want, any single-use enchanted item is fine from magic bullets to iron knuckles to laser flashbulbs.
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1,3,4 all work.
For 1, you can take a stunt that lets you use fists instead of discipline for evocation:attacks.
If you use the enchanted item way, you can also just use fists as your targeting skill.
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What they said, 1, 3, or 4. Or possibly all of the above in varying degrees, though 3 is not very mechanically effective.
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For general wizardry I like 1 or 3, or GoldenH's suggestion for a one-shot backup effect. I'd only be inclined to allow 4 in the case of sponsored magic or something similar.
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Well all four of the ideas I mentioned above 'work' in that they fit the rules of the game, but none of them really capture the intent of the spell and it's this intent that I'm really looking to recreate. In the same way, GoldenH's suggestion to treat it as a potion fits the rules, but I'm looking to create a repeatable, low power effect that doesn't use fate points, take up enchanted item slots, spend refresh, or inflict mental stress with each use. If you're looking for an equivalent then think cantrips and orisons from D&D.
Now we already have them for non-combat effects, on page 259 it mentions that light spells and the like just work without being rolled. However generally these are purely utility spells that don't really influence any conflicts. As this does influence combat, there needs to be a rule that governs damage dealt, duration etc.
This isn't useful for most full wizards, what wizard will bother to coat his hands in flame, when he can throw a fireball just as easily and deal far more damage? For focused practitioners however, it might be the only combat trick they have. Here's another idea I've thought of, it may require balancing though.
6) A manoeuvre ritual is cast creating a temporary aspect on the caster only, costing one point of mental stress permanently while it's running and dismissible at any time as a free action. It ends at sunrise and sunset unless a fate point is spent (or perhaps another point of mental stress?). The temporary aspect it creates can be tagged a certain number of times per day equal to conviction, with any further invocations costing a fate point as usual. The aspect can be compelled by opponents and gm's as usual. The effect the aspect creates works like any other aspect, a declaration or +2 on a roll (so for the effect I'm creating this would be the equivalent of a +2 weapon) at the GM's discretion. I'm tempted to say it could be limited to lore, but I think that could be easily abused.
Example 1. A pyromancer ritual to create a 'fiery fists' aspect. He can use this aspect in combat for a +2 weapon bonus on fist attacks, he could use it to burn specific objects as a declaration, he could use it to intimidate people in social situations. It could also be compelled against him during stressful moments (burning or melting objects like phones, vital documents etc)
Example 2. A biomancer ritual to create a 'strong muscles' aspect. This aspect could be used to give up to a +2 weapon bonus on attacks, on athletic checks, on diving for cover etc. It could be compelled against him (doesn't know his own strength, muscle damage etc).
Example 3. A psychomancer/empath ritual to create a 'sensitive to emotion' aspect. This could be tagged to give +2 in social situations, make declarations about an NPC's mood, +2 for sensing lies or even ambushes in the right situation. Plus it could be compelled by a GM to cause psychic shock, to weaken them against WCV attacks etc.
Issues.
Open to abuse, though all aspect use is at a GM's discretion and most rules can be abused.
Further balancing required? How long is the ritual? (My gut says 40 - lore x5 minutes. Complicated?) Should it be 2 mental stress? Or a minor mental consequence like 'split concentration'?
Well thanks for your replies so far, let me know what you think. I can't help but feel it bridges a gap left in the rules.
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I definitely wouldn't allow such a thing. Either cast a spell to make a attack, do a maneuver during combat, or pony up some of your Refresh. Spellcasting is uber enough without letting people use it all day.
If you absolutely have to have a magical weapon, try a thaumaturgy spell, check out the section in the book on conjuring weapons.
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Based on my understanding of how magic works in the Dresdenverse, it'd be a pretty foolish thing to try and cover your hands in flame, regardless of your ability, because the fire still obeys the laws of physics, so it would burn your hands and clothing.
Spellcasting is supposed to be draining, especially for evocation, so really, an enchanted item, maneuver or potion slot are the most appropriate options.
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Letting someone throw fireballs all day for free would be broken. Normal attack spells can deal a huge amount of damage with lots of flexibility. Getting the use of an aspect for free a couple of times a day (varying between 1 and 5) that can be compelled against you, is reliant on gm cooperation and costs you a permanent point of stress while it is active is a totally different matter.
Conjuring isn't at all suitable for any of the examples I've used, it doesn't match the intent at all. In fact, it's so impractical that on page 275 it actually advises you not to bother. It's not hard to imagine a wizard casting a spell on himself to prepare him for the rest of the day, it's not hard to imagine a pyromancer that isn't advanced enough to create flame thrower effects but can still make flames dance on his fingers.
I posted on my idea on the forum to get criticism and if the effect is genuinely overpowered, if I've missed some crucial rules, then fine. 'Spellcasting is uber enough without letting people use it all day' isn't constructive criticism, it's a strawman. Thanks for taking a read GoldenH, but please focus on what the intent of the spell actually is.
Incidently, it could easily be ruled that you could only have one temporary aspect created in this way at once, or that each additional aspect over the first doubles the previous cost in stress. Also, this would be a useful way for an all thaumaturgy/ritual mage to have some relevance in combat without being over powered, bear in mind this is still only a +2 bonus at most.
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Thanks for the reply Wordmaker. Perhaps my 'hands of flame' example isn't the ideal one, though it's arguable that a wizard could protect himself from flames with a spell and that could certainly be worked in to a ritual. If you prefer however, imagine 'fists of force' or 'fingers of frost' or some other alliterative example.
You're right that spellcasting is supposed to be draining and I'm trying to keep that in mind as I come up with ways to recreate this effect. These are 'mundane' effects or as the books term it, 'pre-school' magic, but used for effect. There's no doubt that in my pyromancer example, punching an npc with a +2 bonus won't come anywhere near to the damage that a properly aimed fireball would. However, not all wizards are created equal, especially at the lower refresh levels, and I find it hard to believe that each 'punch' would use up an enchanted item slot, a potion slot or whatever. It just really doesn't fit the idea of the spell and from what I can see, in DFRPG the intent is everything.
I'm not saying my idea is the answer, but I am saying that currently nothing else in the rules fits properly either.
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One thing that came up on a thread dealing with how to represent Harry having his shield up even before a fight stars was a suggestion from Fred to allow an actual conflict to be a seperate scene to the moments just before it. That might work.
If you rule something like that, then you can have a flaming sword working continually, and because the next fight will be a different scene, your stress track would be cleared.
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Well that would work certainly, my only worry is that... well as you said, it really should be stressful and I'm trying to model this without giving away spells stress free.
Having said that, I have come up with another way which might work and is less of a drastic addition that idea 6...
7) Most of these ideas have been related to the high-concept ala wizard-blooded martial artist or trainee pyromancer. Why not have the spell cast allow you a number of free tags to your high concept aspect that allow you that +2 bonus but, as before, only in the right situation as approved by the gm. This saves adding an extra aspect, in fact if you combine it with your idea then...
Oh I don't know, I've thought about it too much :) I think that activating a flaming sword should cost you something, rather than having it in the scene for free, but I also don't think it should cost you stress every time you use it as that just doesn't make sense. Certainly your idea would work though, it's easier than adding a whole new way of working a ritual AND it solves other issues like the shield you mention.
ps. A flaming sword does make more sense than 'hands on fire' and it's also very thematic. The old fiery sword/whip is a classic staple in fantasy.
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Hmm, adding extra tags is a fairly hefty rules change.
I suppose it all depends on what a given group finds easier; recording extra tags, or recording extra Aspects.
Though if this is going to be something a character might want to do often, like being a standard combat option for them,it might be better to just go the Item of Power route.
Or just ask your GM if your character can have a flaming sword that acts like a normal sword for damage except it can't cut anything non-flammable and serves as any fire-related Catch?
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Well the character that made me think along these lines is a 'wizard-blooded martial artist'. He uses his fists only, no weapons, but he can channel his 'chi' (spirit) to deal more damage to opponents, think shaolin monk/tai chi master. The key thing is that he could potentially be a powerful wizard but he hasn't been trained or exposed to the supernatural at all. However his dedication to the martial arts has allowed him to unlock some of his potential and so while others find the idea of chi a useful metaphor for training, for him it's a fact of life. Of course this means he can't cast normal spells at all, not until the character has learnt what he is and got some training, but in the meantime he's a kick-ass fighter with some biomancy ability (minor reiki healing, feats of strength, dexterity and toughness etc).
Unfortunately with the current rules he'll be able to throw a couple of punches only before being massively stressed. His fists don't fit in enchanted item slots and they aren't items of power, but if they were it'd make his refresh jump up and completely change the character concept.
Nevermind, he'll just fight normally, with the odd rare punch treated like a spirit evocation doing far more damage than it should.
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If you really don't want him casting spells, why give him spellcasting at all? Werewolves are technically focused practitioners too, but they don't get evocation or thaumaturgy.
Just grab claws, yeah.
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Free tags on any aspect would merit the same number of "free" compels as well... at least thats how i would see it.
That could get ugly, fast.
You could just model your chi punches as a maneuver.
Maneuver with Discipline to add a "Focused Chi" Aspect on yourself.
Tag it for +2 on your next Attack.
No stress
No refresh
No rules conflict.
Being a kick-ass fighter costs refresh... it's actually a relatively refresh heavy concept to begin with.
So if you want him to have that combat edge all the time... simply rename the Claws power into "Chi Strike" and pay the one point of refresh it costs. That can't make that much of a difference. If it's something he uses a lot, it's also the most cost effective thing to do.
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Well all four of the ideas I mentioned above 'work' in that they fit the rules of the game, but none of them really capture the intent of the spell and it's this intent that I'm really looking to recreate. In the same way, GoldenH's suggestion to treat it as a potion fits the rules, but I'm looking to create a repeatable, low power effect that doesn't use fate points, take up enchanted item slots, spend refresh, or inflict mental stress with each use. If you're looking for an equivalent then think cantrips and orisons from D&D.
Okay, how do I say this? Effects that cost nothing and grant a combat bonus are broken. This isn't D&D where you've got low HP and BAB for being a Wizard so a few at will damaging effects are balanced, this game is balanced on an entirely different level, and adding free powers that can tip the balance in combat pretty much breaks the game.
Now we already have them for non-combat effects, on page 259 it mentions that light spells and the like just work without being rolled. However generally these are purely utility spells that don't really influence any conflicts. As this does influence combat, there needs to be a rule that governs damage dealt, duration etc.
But the thing is, those are fluff, they're thematic and cool, but explicitly NOT combat or otherwise conflict oriented, and there's a very good reason for that.
Letting someone throw fireballs all day for free would be broken. Normal attack spells can deal a huge amount of damage with lots of flexibility. Getting the use of an aspect for free a couple of times a day (varying between 1 and 5) that can be compelled against you, is reliant on gm cooperation and costs you a permanent point of stress while it is active is a totally different matter.
Not really. The effect you're talking about is at least as good as Claws (a Weapon: 2 effect), which costs a point of Refresh. Allowing Evocation particularly to start duplicating -1 Refresh powers free of Fate Point charges is a really bad idea on multiple levels. Also, +2 to hit is WAY better than you're implying it is that's the difference between a 1/3 and 2/3 chance of hitting alot of the time AND +2 damage when you do. Aspects are awesome.
Conjuring isn't at all suitable for any of the examples I've used, it doesn't match the intent at all. In fact, it's so impractical that on page 275 it actually advises you not to bother. It's not hard to imagine a wizard casting a spell on himself to prepare him for the rest of the day, it's not hard to imagine a pyromancer that isn't advanced enough to create flame thrower effects but can still make flames dance on his fingers.
Shouldn't he just have the Claws power then? I mean if "make my bare-handed attacks nasty" is his only power...
Not everything that's magic needs to mechanically use the Thaumaturgy or Evocation rules.
I posted on my idea on the forum to get criticism and if the effect is genuinely overpowered, if I've missed some crucial rules, then fine. 'Spellcasting is uber enough without letting people use it all day' isn't constructive criticism, it's a strawman. Thanks for taking a read GoldenH, but please focus on what the intent of the spell actually is.
Incidently, it could easily be ruled that you could only have one temporary aspect created in this way at once, or that each additional aspect over the first doubles the previous cost in stress. Also, this would be a useful way for an all thaumaturgy/ritual mage to have some relevance in combat without being over powered, bear in mind this is still only a +2 bonus at most.
Have you looked at the Thaumaturgical Shapeshifting rules? They allow the use of Tags in place of Fate Points to gain temporary powers (such as Claws). They only last a scene or so as a rule, though. Perhaps that's more what you're looking for?
You're right that spellcasting is supposed to be draining and I'm trying to keep that in mind as I come up with ways to recreate this effect. These are 'mundane' effects or as the books term it, 'pre-school' magic, but used for effect. There's no doubt that in my pyromancer example, punching an npc with a +2 bonus won't come anywhere near to the damage that a properly aimed fireball would. However, not all wizards are created equal, especially at the lower refresh levels, and I find it hard to believe that each 'punch' would use up an enchanted item slot, a potion slot or whatever. It just really doesn't fit the idea of the spell and from what I can see, in DFRPG the intent is everything.
Well, with Lore at Godd, and two Enchanted Item Slots, you can have an Enchanted Item that deals Weapon: 2 attacks 4 times a day for free, and for 1 Mental Stress a piece thereafter. Enchanted Items aren't as limited as you appear to think.
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Well the character that made me think along these lines is a 'wizard-blooded martial artist'. He uses his fists only, no weapons, but he can channel his 'chi' (spirit) to deal more damage to opponents, think shaolin monk/tai chi master. The key thing is that he could potentially be a powerful wizard but he hasn't been trained or exposed to the supernatural at all. However his dedication to the martial arts has allowed him to unlock some of his potential and so while others find the idea of chi a useful metaphor for training, for him it's a fact of life. Of course this means he can't cast normal spells at all, not until the character has learnt what he is and got some training, but in the meantime he's a kick-ass fighter with some biomancy ability (minor reiki healing, feats of strength, dexterity and toughness etc).
Unfortunately with the current rules he'll be able to throw a couple of punches only before being massively stressed. His fists don't fit in enchanted item slots and they aren't items of power, but if they were it'd make his refresh jump up and completely change the character concept.
Nevermind, he'll just fight normally, with the odd rare punch treated like a spirit evocation doing far more damage than it should.
Actually, I have a few suggesions to help:
1. As stated, take Channeling for the big punches (and possibly Ritual for Reiki and such), but take Claws as well for the little ones, add in Human Guise and the 'claws' (whatever their physical form) will be visible only when in use.
2. Skip magic entirely (at least for combat, maybe keep Ritual). Take Inhuman Speed and Inhuman Strength, as well as possibly Claws (or even take Modular Abilities) with a Feeding Dependency (Magical Energy)...you won't have the option of killing to recharge, but you'll also just need to find a ley-line and mediate to do so.
3. Some combination of the above. You can have Ritual, Channeling, Claws and Inhuman Speed (with Feeding Dependency) for only -6 Refresh.
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Thanks Tsunami, you make an interesting point on the free compels, though they would still have to target that temp aspect/high concept only. My character might well hex every technological item around him when he uses it, that would make sense. Fire handy guy might well set fire to his clothes by accident too :) I think, like any aspect use, a decent GM will make a decent story out of it in the best way he can (even if that does involve spontaneous combustion :P).
The manoeuvre idea for a 'focused chi' aspect is good too and may be an easy solution for quick conflicts, however in a more drawn out conflict he'd be casting manoeuvres every other turn or spending fate points like crazy. Maybe additional power invested in the first spell could allow additional tagging just like a standard duration spell. Yeah that might be the easiest way. Thanks!
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Okay, how do I say this? Effects that cost nothing and grant a combat bonus are broken. This isn't D&D where you've got low HP and BAB for being a Wizard so a few at will damaging effects are balanced, this game is balanced on an entirely different level, and adding free powers that can tip the balance in combat pretty much breaks the game.
I agree with you, I'm not trying to make this cost nothing. I've came here to find a solution that would be balanced and fair, a small cost for a small effect. Perhaps I should have realised that people would take the orisons/cantrips example literally rather than putting in the context of everything else I'd said where I was trying to find a fair mechanic and cost for this.
But the thing is, those are fluff, they're thematic and cool, but explicitly NOT combat or otherwise conflict oriented, and there's a very good reason for that.
Again, I agree, that's exactly what I said.
Not really. The effect you're talking about is at least as good as Claws (a Weapon: 2 effect), which costs a point of Refresh. Allowing Evocation particularly to start duplicating -1 Refresh powers free of Fate Point charges is a really bad idea on multiple levels. Also, +2 to hit is WAY better than you're implying it is that's the difference between a 1/3 and 2/3 chance of hitting alot of the time AND +2 damage when you do. Aspects are awesome
I would say it's about equal to Claws in effect, maybe slightly more flexible but not as useable, that really depends on how the idea is implemented however. Check YS179 for this part 'several modes of spellcasting will let you create many effects that at least approximately duplicate some of the powers you'll find elsewhere in this chapter. That means there's no need to take those other powers. For example, there's no need to take Worldwalker (page171) if you're already able to cast spells that open up portals into and out of the Nevernever.' Worldwalker being a -2 power. Claws being a much weaker effect than the average spellcaster can create. So my character would be a weaker werewolf as you guys keep putting it? So?
Shouldn't he just have the Claws power then? I mean if "make my bare-handed attacks nasty" is his only power...
Not everything that's magic needs to mechanically use the Thaumaturgy or Evocation rules
He'll have a number of different, fairly weak powers at first. He's only just finding out he's a wizard, he's low refresh with the potential to be much greater. He isn't a werewolf. He isn't supposed to be a 'fighter', that's just how the character starts. Forgive me if I create characters based on roleplaying, rather than squeezing every bit of power I can out of the rules. If it helps, I plan for him to learn quickly.
Have you looked at the Thaumaturgical Shapeshifting rules? They allow the use of Tags in place of Fate Points to gain temporary powers (such as Claws). They only last a scene or so as a rule, though. Perhaps that's more what you're looking for?
He isn't changing his hands, he doesn't create a ritual before/during every fight. These ideas don't fit the effect which I've described.
Well, with Lore at Godd, and two Enchanted Item Slots, you can have an Enchanted Item that deals Weapon: 2 attacks 4 times a day for free, and for 1 Mental Stress a piece thereafter. Enchanted Items aren't as limited as you appear to think.
Enchanted items can be very powerful, it's very clear from the rules how much potential they have. He doesn't have an enchanted item. He uses his hands. When developing this technique he isn't even really aware he's casting a spell.
Actually, I have a few suggesions to help:
1. As stated, take Channeling for the big punches (and possibly Ritual for Reiki and such), but take Claws as well for the little ones, add in Human Guise and the 'claws' (whatever their physical form) will be visible only when in use.
2. Skip magic entirely (at least for combat, maybe keep Ritual). Take Inhuman Speed and Inhuman Strength, as well as possibly Claws (or even take Modular Abilities) with a Feeding Dependency (Magical Energy)...you won't have the option of killing to recharge, but you'll also just need to find a ley-line and mediate to do so.
3. Some combination of the above. You can have Ritual, Channeling, Claws and Inhuman Speed (with Feeding Dependency) for only -6 Refresh.
1. Reference YS179, plus all the descriptions I've given of my character and the effect I'm trying to create.
2. That's not my character at all.
3. See 1 and 2.
Thank you for taking the time to read and reply though DMW, I've enjoyed reading your posts as I've lurked, and you've been a great help on previous questions I've had.
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He isn't changing his hands, he doesn't create a ritual before/during every fight. These ideas don't fit the effect which I've described.
Ah! But bear in mind that this is an effect based system, whether you are actually shapeshifting or not is immaterial, if you're duplicating an existing power for a period of time, you can use the guidelines in question.
Enchanted items can be very powerful, it's very clear from the rules how much potential they have. He doesn't have an enchanted item. He uses his hands. When developing this technique he isn't even really aware he's casting a spell.
Ah, understood. That does make things a bit more difficult, I won't deny. Hmmm.
1. Reference YS179, plus all the descriptions I've given of my character and the effect I'm trying to create.
Right, but here's the thing: If you have the effect more or less permanently, then it's the power i question and should be purchased as such. But if that's legitimately not what you want, well, I'll see what I can think of...
2. That's not my character at all.
Gotcha. It's a valid model, but if it's not one that appeals to you, then obviously it shouldn't be used.
3. See 1 and 2.
Okay, understood.
Thank you for taking the time to read and reply though DMW, I've enjoyed reading your posts as I've lurked, and you've been a great help on previous questions I've had.
Well, you're welcome, but this is going to nag at me now. I'm sure I can come up with something legitimately helpful given a bit of time...
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If I may chime in, I have an idea.
Go with the focused practitioner with channeling based around your ki idea.
So for his spells that make his hands more powerful (read: makes them into a weapon), cast a spell. While most wizards put all their beef into making it a nasty-high weapon rating, you're doing the opposite. Use one or two shifts of power to give yourself a weapon:1 or weapon:2. Spend the rest of your shifts of power into duration.
That way, you get your spellcasting on, completely within the rules for evocation, and get the effect to last a few exchanges.
Use on of your focus items (you get 2 for taking channeling) to add to your conviction, to give yourself that extra duration...
dangit. I just reread the evocation rules, and it apparently doesn't allow for duration on attacks. Crap. I'd ask your table anyway if they'd allow it, since it is your character concept.
Otherwise, if you wanna go purely within the rules, take ritual instead.
As per the rules for thaumaturgy (that's one hard word to sound out :p), and use your focus items to add to your lore for maximum "now casting" power.
Then make a spell that is 2 shifts of power for a weapon:2, and about 3-4 shifts for duration (I'm assuming that the default duration would be "a few moments"). That way, you have a weapon:2 that lasts for ~15 minutes and, get this...COSTS NO STRESS! Per the sidebar on page 271, "...if you don’t go past your Conviction, you don’t take any stress."
So a 6 shift spell (that might take you two exchanges to fully cast) that garners no stress--unless you want to complete it sooner!--that allows you to make your hands into DEADLY weapons.
With a Lore of 4, and a +2 with your focused item, you can use the 6-shift spell no problem with no extra preparation. You're gonna want to have a good Conviction and Discipline, to cast the spell right the first time. Maybe burn another point or two of refresh for refinement to add to Conviction/Discipline...prayer beads, your karate/tai-kwan-do/ju jitsu/etc belt, maybe even your gi can be a focus item!
And, of course, FISTS.
For a Feet in the Water character, I'd go with the following:
Skills (using the third skill package for 20 skill points):
Great (4) - Lore, Fists
Good (3) - Conviction, Discipline
Fair (2) -
Average (1) -
Refresh:
[-2] Ritual
[-1] Refinement (2 specialization boni)
[-1] Hard-knock life (stunt, use Fists for physical stress track)
Specialization boni:
+2 Lore, +1 Conviction, +1 Discipline
This leaves you with 1 refresh, but the ability to cast a 6-shift ritual with no special preparations. If you try it in one exchange, it'll cost you a 2-stress mental hit (no too bad, considering your Conviction of gives you 4 stress boxes. Indeed, it's a stress-free casting if you take two exchanges to do it (3 each exchange is less than your stress-free max of 4). Great if you have time to "meditate" on the coming battle, or what have you.
Just my 2 cents...
-EF
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EldritchFire: I don't think rituals work like that. Even if the actual casting only takes one or two exchanges, and you've got the materials readily available, you've still got to set it up; this isn't something you can do on the fly in combat. If you're preparing for a fight you know you're walking into? Sure. But just on the fly? That's the domain of evocation. (Footnote: this is my interpretation of the rules. The actual prep requirements for rituals at or below your lore are not clearly specified in the books - the only thing that is specified is that we should assume the character has the materials at least readily available, and that we shouldn't take up player time running prep scenes. Your mileage may vary, and if your GM is cool with you running rituals on the fly like that, go for it.)
No, what we need here is the effect of thaumaturgy, but with the speed and methods of an evocation... Hello there, sponsored magic!
"But," you say, "I don't have a sponsor!" Really? Are you sure about that? Who taught you martial arts, and why did they work so hard at teaching you mental focus and discipline? What connections do they have to, say, [insert name of some ancient tibetan monastery here]? These sound like interesting plot hooks to me...
Alternatively, we could go with sponsorless sponsored magic - there's even an example in the book like that: Kemmlerian Necromancy. Find the right source of knowledge, and it's yours. (Though whether or not you can rack up debt with it is definitely questionable...)
Were I GMing for such a character, I'd allow a two point sponsored magic - it's at half cost since it only applies to evocations, and only to the trapping of granting ritual levels of effectiveness to spells that exemplify your school of martial arts (be sure to come up with a catchy name for it!) That puts you starting at a base cost of six refresh - channeling, and ritual, and that two point "sponsored magic".
Your GM may vary, and, as this is by this point well outside the letter of the rules, there's no guarantee you'll be able to get such a thing approved. You can always fall back on a default four point sponsored magic, and try to broaden your power base later on when you've got the refresh to spend on evocation or thaumaturgy.
That all said, I'd agree with others that the actual *best* way to do this is with the claws power - you pay the refresh price once, and then it's something your character can just *do* - no mental stress, no chance of backlash or fallout - essentially a rote that's become so ingrained in your mental "muscle memory" that you don't even have to think about it anymore.
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Thanks for taking a look Eldritch Fire, my only concern with using rituals like that is it's totally abusable. Assuming you're preparing for a fight in, say, a siege situation or similar, you start your ritual for adding Weapon:X to your fist attacks. Rather than stopping at 6 shifts though, you decide to cast it as a 15 shift spell. You put 6 shifts in to duration and another 9 shifts in to power giving you a spell that lasts for an hour and allows you to add weapon:9 to your attacks... well that's just insane! :) That's why I keep coming back to the aspect/manoeuvre idea as +2 seems a fair power level (seeing as claws is seen as fair and, by some, underpowered even).
Thanks for taking a look though, let me know if you come up with any other ideas though I'm starting to lose hope.
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Hey Wyvern, thanks for your post. The sponsor idea is interesting, but it does limit my characters potential to be a full wizard later. Otherwise it works as it's magic, but not as we know it i.e. not how Harry throws it around, which suits my character a lot considering his current abilities. You're totally right about Claws though, it really is the easiest way. It's simply that I'm loath to pay refresh for claws when he has channelling and ritual.
Think of it this way. When he started learning, his potential was completely untapped and he was, for rules purposes, pure mortal with no supernatural power.
As his training progressed, he learnt to harness his 'chi' to increase his his martial power, this would be where, as a character, his only supernatural power would be a weaker version claws, perhaps with some small tai chi ritual with minor effects.
Claws -1 and Ritual -2 for a total of -3 refresh, with perhaps wizards constitution in that in accessing his wizard blood his bruises may heal quicker etc.
Now he's at the stage where he has Channelling -2, Ritual -2, Wizards Constitution +0 and the occassional accidently dip in to Wizard Sight -1 for a -5 refresh character. He can still do what he could before, but now his 'Claw' has upgraded to Channelling as he's learnt to harness his Chi more, allowing him to strike at a distance (telekinetic punches), fight blind (life sense) and other classic martial art stunts. Perhaps he may even be at the stage where he can throw 'chi balls' (think Street Fighter, Dragon Ball Z or similar).
Claws is a metaphor for his ability and a useful one too in terms of power level and ease of use, however it's unfair to give it to him for free without some sort of cost or limitation, just as it's unfair to make him pay extra refresh for an ability which is just an older, weaker version of what he can do now.
I actually wish I'd thought to explain it this way previously, I hope it helps everyone understand what I'm trying to do here.
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Thanks DMW, looking forward to hearing if you come up with anything. I still keep trying to wrap my head around it, just because I think it would be a useful way to model a number of weak abilities that might be used by focused practioners. Another example, a photomancer that sends out flashes of distracting lights or illusions when fighting which distract an opponent so that attacks are more likely to get through to deal damage.
Currently, my character will just hit people as normal, except for the odd spell where he supercharges a single attack which is treated like a normal evocation, even though it's described as a punch/kick/whatever. It works in game turns, but I'll be throwing knock out punches in the first exchange rather than having martial art duels. It's not as fun, nor does it solve the issue, but it fits the rules even if it doesn't fit the character. *sigh*.
Thanks for your help all, let me know if you get anything else! One last thing, are we going to struggle with this problem when recreating other creature features or speed/strength/toughness/recovery powers?
*Edit* Changed my claws metaphor as I didn't mean for him to have free 'claws' all the time.
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EldritchFire: I don't think rituals work like that. Even if the actual casting only takes one or two exchanges, and you've got the materials readily available, you've still got to set it up; this isn't something you can do on the fly in combat. If you're preparing for a fight you know you're walking into? Sure. But just on the fly? That's the domain of evocation. (Footnote: this is my interpretation of the rules. The actual prep requirements for rituals at or below your lore are not clearly specified in the books - the only thing that is specified is that we should assume the character has the materials at least readily available, and that we shouldn't take up player time running prep scenes. Your mileage may vary, and if your GM is cool with you running rituals on the fly like that, go for it.)
According to YS270-271, you roll to control the shifts of power. When you have controlled enough shifts, you cast the spell. "...it’s pretty much impossible to control all the necessary shifts in one round of casting for all but the simplest of spells", but not impossible.
Thaumaturgy can still work, therefore. Also note that, if you want to go the route of tag-able aspects, that's possible, too! "If the intent is to create a temporary aspect that can be tagged more than once (remember that normally you’d only get the benefit of the tag once and have to invoke after that), simply chain two or more maneuvers together in the same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a similar variant." YS265.
And, per YS252, "By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power", so a 6-shift spell gives you two tags. That way, you can still use your "weapons" when you need them, but not have to spend fate points to do it.
This way, if you know what's going on and have time to prepare, you can get several taggable aspets on you with enough time.
Remember, with aspects, it's all about using it when it's "dramatically appropriate." Sure, you could use the tags to deal a lot more hurt, but you can also use 'em to make a miss into a hit!
More of my 2 cents...
-EF
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EldritchFire: Yes, I'm not arguing on the time spent actually *casting* the ritual. Just pointing out that there *is* preparation time required, even if we're advised to not spend player time dealing with that for small rituals. See the comments on time on page 261; I wouldn't allow thaumaturgy without at least a minute in preparation time, even if you manage to have all the right materials on your person already. (As far as that goes, we're advised to not spend player time on casting, either, unless there's some dramatic pressure - like zombies climbing up the hill towards your ritual site.)
Multiple taggable aspects is pretty clever, though, and I don't see any reason that couldn't be done with evocation if you've got enough power - though that'd get expensive, since you'd need to pay for multiple aspects (three shifts each) and enough duration to have a hope of using them all.
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CMEast:
The reason you stop at 6 shifts for a ritual is that, if it's over your lore, the rules are quite clear that you need to spend one or more scenes on prep work, and it's absolutely not something you can just toss off. (As opposed to something that you probably shouldn't be allowed to toss off, but that the rules aren't quite as clear on.) Now, if you're preparing for a fight in a siege situation, and you know when that fight's going to be, and you've got weeks to prepare for it... there's nothing stopping you from having a fifteen shift ritual running. Wizards are scary.
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How does a sponsor limit your potential to be a full wizard? You're paying refresh to be able to do something a normal wizard couldn't do, but, if you've got the refresh to spend, there's nothing stopping you from picking up "real" wizardry later. Even if you start with just sponsored magic and The Sight, well, that represents your non-standard approach to spellcasting, and when you've got two refresh to spend, you can pick up thaumaturgy or evocation.
(Yes, two refresh. Remember the cost break for sponsored magic: Even if your GM is playing it entirely by the book, with sponsored magic costing you four refresh, that goes down by one for each of thaumaturgy and evocation you pick up - essentially saying "I'm a normal wizard, now, but with this extra kind of magic I can do". Note that I wouldn't stack the normal cost break with the half price for limited scope I suggested above - two refresh to be able to use your magic in a way that nobody else can is probably about right.)
In fact, for a ten refresh game, you could fit in full wizard + sponsored magic right at the start.
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And on claws upgrading to channeling: We're probably going to have to agree to disagree here. The two are inherently different - as we've discovered from various attempts in this thread to make claws as an evocation.
Evocation costs mental stress. Takes an action to activate. Can be blocked by being in a grapple. Can be counterspelled, blocked by a circle, or otherwise magically shut down by someone who knows what they're doing.
Claws, by comparison, does not cost you anything. No mental stress. No action needed to activate - it's just there when you need it. It can't be counterspelled; it can't be shut down unless you choose to do that (as, say, a severe mental consequence or the like).
If anything, I'd see claws as, in this case, an upgrade from channeling; your initial fumbling attempts cost you mental stress on every hit and left you with splitting headaches after a hard fight. After some practice, you've got it down to a rote - something you can do, something that costs you, but you understand what the price is and know where your limits are. And eventually, when you've absolutely mastered the technique, it's simply internalized - no more stress, no more hesitation or complex and disruptable calling of power. Sure, that costs you an extra point of refresh, but it's still worth it - that's that much less mental damage you're going to take in an average fight; that's that much more you can use the power. With basic evocation, you've got maybe four to six hits before you have to rest (or take consequences); with claws you can take a few minutes and punch through a wall, or fight several opponents back to back without getting a migraine out of it.
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I expect you probably will end up struggling with this when trying to recreate other creature features or base physical powers; that's actually why I suggested sponsored magic, because it will handily cover all of those for you (as long as they're within the theme of your school of martial arts magic - for example, a combat style based on flowing movement and never letting the opponent get a solid hit in would probably not offer toughness powers as an option). And, again, spending the refresh to actually buy the power in question will be a stronger option than replicating it through spellcasting - no action to activate, no cost in mental stress, no way for someone to catch you with your spells down, etc. (The action to activate is a big one, actually - it may not seem like much when you're looking at just claws, but consider - say you take three exchanges to cast claws, and strength, and speed... by this point the fight might be over already, especially if you're facing guys with guns!)
The alternative here is to start using your enchanted item slots. There's a pretty good discussion in this thread (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17041.0.html) about using enchanted items for "always on" effects (and why "always on" in in-character terms can still have limited uses per game session).
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That all said, there is one analogy you can apply to possibly justify using an evocation to empower your fists with weapon 1 for a scene: Consider the guy who brings a concealed knife to a fight. He spends an action to draw (or maybe does it as a supplemental action, depending on how that concealed sheath is set up) - and poof! Weapon 1, for the scene, or until someone takes the dagger away (counters the spell). Were I a GM, I'd be rather wary of that train of thought... but I'd probably allow it as a rote that was tied to a focus item, thus replicating the physical constraints of the guy with the concealed knife. Also, this doesn't scale; you can't bring a concealed suit of full plate armor to a fight!
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Well Wyvern, you're right again, I got so excited by the 'claws as a precursor to channelling' metaphor that I didn't clearly explain what I meant. An always on claws power, without even the downside of social situations or the inability to use a touch-screen phone, would be broken and certainly shouldn't be included automatically in channelling/evocation.
What I mean to say (and I've edited my earlier post a little to match) is that a the 'pre-channelling' version of claws would be a set number of uses per day, or perhaps it would cost something on first use a day, or first use in a scene (like losing a standard action or a fate point) or a combination of the above. Before someone can wield epic forces, before they've mastered basic element use, they can do parlour tricks like lighting their cigarette with the tip of their finger, or move small items around etc. These small tricks have been covered by the rules, but their usage in combat hasn't been. I'm really just trying to find a rule that would allow a weak focused practioner a useful but not broken ability, I'm certainly not trying to make anything overpowered.
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Another idea! This one isn't actually as useful for my character but perhaps it'll work as a model for those abilities I feel all wizards are bound to have (even if they normally have more powerful tricks up their voluminous sleeves)
8 ) A character with channelling/evocation may take a refinement that shows their ability with their chosen element has grown. The refinement will give them +1 to either offense or defense rolls which applies when using fists, weapons or guns skills in combat, and when attacking or defending in social conflicts. The +1 in social conflicts represents effects like halo's of fire, and warm handshakes etc, as long as it's justifiable to the GM. It can be taken more than once, but the abilities cannot stack.
This would create a lot of the effects that I expect a wizard to be capable of but are missing in DFRPG at the moment. I don't think it's overpowered but I think it would be useful, plus it's possible to create a character that's got low conviction and discipline but can still use weak spell effects if they are willing to spend the refresh. Finally, for a wizard that can't risk any more mental stress, he can fall back on his most basic magic so that he isn't entirely helpless.
How's that? :) It's almost a free, specialised skill up that works in some circumstances but not all, for a point of refresh. I know I keep going on but I feel like there's currently a gap in the rules for effects that should be pretty easy.
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Thinking about it, I think Conjuration might actually be the way to go. You can (if you put a bit of effort into it) make a 1 year duration effect giving you a "Weapon", then Veil it for the same duration. That's Complexity 11 or so for the attack (which we'll call Weapon: 2), and the Veil's rating+8 for it. That's quite a bit, but at Good Lore only something like 9 tags and maybe a couple of days work for a full year. Assume you did it more or less by instinct the first time, just mediating and imparting power into your own body.
And yes, I know that you're not really Conjuring anything, but function is more important than form in this system, and the effect you're looking for is a Conjuration one.
In terms of Balance, this is a powerful enough spell that you glow with power to The Sight and can still very much be countered or dispelled, but it'll give you the effect you want most of the time.
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Well that's interesting, in game terms we could assume I'd already cast that (maybe taking an aspect to show it)... but that leaves it feeling rather cheap as the cost would have been paid before the game started.
Is it possible to increase the strength of a ritual that's already been cast? Or add duration/charges? For instance could I create a ward for a flat and then, a week later, add to the ward that's already there? Again this is something that happens a lot in both modern and high fantasy novels but I can't think of an example from the Dresden Files, nor can I find rules for it in YS. If so it could be a spell with only a few charges that get 'recharged' if I do the same ritual I've been doing... the only difference between this and a previous idea I'd had is that if it's dispelled it can't ever be re-cast.
Your idea just by itself would work, but as with some of the others, it could be abused. What's to stop someone else creating a character that has a far more powerful spell on them to start with like 50 lightning bolt charges or similar etc. Well the GM I guess, but even so it could be abused.
Thank you though :)
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Maybe something to look at is the Iron Man (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18560.0.html) thread.
You could do something similar, with prayer beads/gloves/etc. that give you a weapon:2 effect X times per session. After you use your allotment of uses, it costs mental stress. It seems to be exactly what you're looking for, no?
At a weapon:2, it's equal to claws, but the uses are only drained on a hit. Also, it avoids the dilemma of an aspect where it could mean the difference between a hit and a miss. Weapons add to the stress done, not to the attack roll.
-EF
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Well the thing about that is that, because it's Conjuration, it can only duplicate the effects of mundane items. So it gives your character a 'sword' (that uses Fists), but isn't going to give anyone else anything worse than a 'gun'.
As for increasing the strength of a ritual: I don't think so. That would allow unlimited Complexity rituals for anyone with Lore just by doing a Complexity 1 ritual over and over again, and that's really game breaking.
On the other hand, you could have it last a week at Complexity 6 (maybe 8 for the Veil), which (with High Lore) is doable every week, though it does require some effort.
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Hey EldritchFire, thanks for the reply again. That is exactly the effect I'm looking to create, though it doesn't even have to be Weapon:2, it could even just be Weapon:1. There are many ways to create this effect and this way, as others have mentioned, is a perfectly good way to do it. I could even create it by changing 'fists' to 'weapons' and carrying an actual weapon around. In fact, if I were to create an enchanted item, I could optimise my character for that and make a far more powerful one.
The problem is, I'm trying to create this effect using channelling or ritual only, without using slots or purchasing the claws power, and that's just not in the current rules as far as I can see. The reason why is that I can use channelling or evocation to launch fireballs, throw cars around, catch bullets and cause the earth itself to open up and swallow my enemies. I can also create tiny, ineffectual spells like coloured lights and so forth without any effort. What I can't seem to do is cast small spells that can affect conflicts in small ways unless I treat them as big spells with all of the mental stress costs that entails. This just doesn't make sense though.
It's easy to create a powerful wizard but how can we create weak but fun focused practitioners, those that have small but reliable gifts? We can't. Low conviction means they get a few weak spells before they're out of gas, they get more out of ignoring their magic and just hitting people but I don't think that's how it should work.
In the same way, there seems to be very little use of magic in social conflicts but intimidating someone with eyes of fire or having the sun seem to shine off of you that little bit more is surely possible. However unless you're trying to full-on dominate someone, the spell system is hardly relevant at all. I guess you could argue that it's been designed that way for a reason, but I still don't feel like it matches the 'reality' of the dresden universe. Clever magic users use every trick in the book to get an advantage.
I think I'm gonna give up :) I'll other have to create the character around the rules, ignoring intent and roleplaying, or just create some obnoxious power-char that bulldozes through conflicts and gives the GM nightmares. Thank you though, I'll road test your idea and see how it feels.
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And following on from that (and another long post from me *sigh*), thanks for your time and help DMW. I think your idea is the closest we're gonna get to a purely ritual way to achieve the effect and it does fit the brief but it still doesn't fix the gap in the rules for effects like these. And you're right, unlimited complexity rituals would be broken, I hadn't thought about how it could be abused.
Nevermind, thanks again.
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9. As a standard action, cast a 3 power spell that, using a fate point too, uses one aspect to create a +1 modifier to rolls that match the intent of the spell until the end of the scene, can be countered/dispelled as usual.
Example. So for 1 shift of mental stress and 1 fate point our 'Pyromancer Hottie' (conv 3, disc 3) creates a physical attack spell that makes the tip of her knife grow white hot. For the rest of the scene, when attacking with it she gets +1 to hit and it deals 1 additional shift of stress. When the scene ends, so does the spell.
Example2. At a cost of 1 fate point and 2 mental stress, the 13 year old 'unwitting poltergeist' (conv 1, disc 1) defends himself from the burglar he discovered as he crept downstairs for a snack, small items seemingly throwing themselves at the masked intruder, distracting him as he tries to attack the terrified boy.
(The idea just came to me and I thought, why not post it).
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Have you considered what happens when you use the Evocation Spin rule? (Generating spin on a control roll reduces the mental stress of casting by one) With Great Discipline, as long as you have at least Average Lore and Conviction you can make a Weapon:1 rote that costs no stress. Just say you use Fists to hit with it, and voila you have your enhanced punches.
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Genius feliscon! I so didn't think of that! That would certainly be usable in most of the examples I've given and would definitely work for my characters numbers. In theory, someone with a discipline of 6 could make themselves a weapon:3 rote which would be a little less balanced, but then any character with that much discipline will be able to throw a lot more damage around than that and so probably wouldn't bother.
One question, where in the book does it state that spin can reduce the mental stress of casting by one? If it does then that's perfect (and it's fair enough, when combined with using it as a rote, that I'm sure it can be house-ruled) as the main issue I had was that weak spells cost stress which meant you could only cast them as often as you could cast stronger spells.
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Unless Feliscon has a more updated PDF than me, Evocation Spin is a completely house rule. The only spin rule I can find is for defense rolls and they apply to the person taking the next turn, not to the player themselves. The spin effect only works on later actions, not the current action your taking. For fist powers I guess that could work if you use multiple powers in one turn (which makes sense). You'd still have to take at least one mental stress hit but everything after the first power could be free as long as your rolls are high enough. If they're all roted, then you don't even need to worry about rolls.
The way I'd do it is something like, "Eye of the Tiger" which increases your alertness and/or athletics and allows you to use multiple fist attacks in one exchange. It costs a mental stress hit but it increases your alertness and/or athletics for multiple turns and you can continually use spin generated from subsequent actions to cast low shift powers for free.
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John Galt is quite correct, it's a House Rule, though a reasonable one.
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And good for a magic-heavy game where you want your PCs to be in a high weight division.
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I think we've been going about this all wrong. What we need isn't another way to use magic, or a contortion of the enchanted items rules. We need a stunt.
I'm basing this off of Tower of Faith, YS150.
Focused Ki: You gain armor:1 against mental stress that derives from your rotes.
This way, you can have a sub-par Conviction, and a decent Discipline and get away with your magic weapon hands.
For example, you have a Conviction of 2, and a Discipline of 4, with a Lore of 1+ so you can actually have a rote. Your rote is "Ki fists" that is a weapon:2 attack (for the Conviction of 2) that is targeted with discipline. With your focused ki stunt, you absorb (READ: negate) the 1-point stress you would normally take for casting that spell.
It may seem cheezy, but it fits the rules (you are spending 1 refresh to be able to pull it off), and it allows you to still do a hadouken that costs stress when the need arises.
Thoughts?
-EF
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I think we've been going about this all wrong. What we need isn't another way to use magic, or a contortion of the enchanted items rules. We need a stunt.
I'm basing this off of Tower of Faith, YS150.
Focused Ki: You gain armor:1 against mental stress that derives from your rotes.
This way, you can have a sub-par Conviction, and a decent Discipline and get away with your magic weapon hands.
For example, you have a Conviction of 2, and a Discipline of 4, with a Lore of 1+ so you can actually have a rote. Your rote is "Ki fists" that is a weapon:2 attack (for the Conviction of 2) that is targeted with discipline. With your focused ki stunt, you absorb (READ: negate) the 1-point stress you would normally take for casting that spell.
It may seem cheezy, but it fits the rules (you are spending 1 refresh to be able to pull it off), and it allows you to still do a hadouken that costs stress when the need arises.
Thoughts?
-EF
Fred has stated in the past that stunts shouldn't be used to affect any supernatural powers. I could see it used as a custom power, but it has severe unbalancing potential, so make sure you discuss it with your group before considering using this.
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As luminos says. However, fred's also gone on the record as saying that Armor won't protect against self-inflicted Stress, as that would result in some severe imbalances. I agree with him wholeheartedly.
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Fred has stated in the past that stunts shouldn't be used to affect any supernatural powers. I could see it used as a custom power, but it has severe unbalancing potential, so make sure you discuss it with your group before considering using this.
Ok, I can see that. Couldn't we, then, just make it a new supernatural power? Per YS158, " supernatural powers add can cover actions and abilities that would otherwise be flatly impossible." And we know that powers are " built much like several mortal stunts all smashed together, getting two shifts (and maybe a little extra) of effect for every one refresh point they cost."
So focused ki, as a -1 refresh supernatural power, allows rotes to be cast at 1 stress less.
Other than that, I think I'm all tapped out of ideas.
-EF
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You really think something that lets a character have an infinite use of evocations is a good idea?
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You really think something that lets a character have an infinite use of evocations is a good idea?
Yeah, anything like that has the potential to be really unbalancing. I'd probably make it at least -3 or so even if I didn't flat-out disallow it.
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You really think something that lets a character have an infinite use of evocations is a good idea?
This is why I like a spin house rule or even a different one; maybe a power that gives a temporary "chi" stress track can be cleared exactly like a hunger stress track (meditation for a turn with a discipline roll) so that those very low shift powers don't have to cost the same as 4 or 5 shift powers do (one mental stress).
I do agree with the original poster that the evocations he's trying to use really shouldn't cost him the same amount of mental stress as a power like fuego would cost him (the lower end 4 or 5 shift version).
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You really think something that lets a character have an infinite use of evocations is a good idea?
Not really, no. However, the OP was looking for a way to do it. I tried to find it. Personally, I'd take claws and human form and call it a day, but that's just me.
-EF
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John Galt is quite correct, it's a House Rule, though a reasonable one.
Personally I see it less as a house rule and more as an unwritten official optional rule due to the designers comments on it in the forum and because it just makes more sense given the number of times in the books that Harry mentions more controlled spells being more energy efficient and less tiring.
It is most certainly going to be in effect in any game I run.
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This thread seems to have become the goto thread for the evocation spin house rule. Here is my... two cents on it... though i'm still weary of it and so these are more based in concerns and aren't firm yet:
I suppose I am okay with a spin-rule on evocation, that really limits your 'free' attacks to the same sort of 'free attack' someone with a gun has. Though I am leery at the progression of it as skills begin to climb... it has implications that can't be fully understood at beginning games.
I think I may require spin to only effect Rotes.
I am undecided whether i will require a focus to be used to benefit from Spin.
I will post this in the other thread too, to get feedback from others on these concerns/ideas.
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I understand spin on defense, because that rewards an otherwise meaningless margin of success, with a benefit, but spin on anything else is not something I'm keen on. Magic is already rather powerful in the game, I don't think I'd allow anything to negate the mandatory stress, except at extremely high refresh games where 1-2 shift spells are largely meaningless.
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I understand spin on defense, because that rewards an otherwise meaningless margin of success, with a benefit, but spin on anything else is not something I'm keen on. Magic is already rather powerful in the game, I don't think I'd allow anything to negate the mandatory stress, except at extremely high refresh games where 1-2 shift spells are largely meaningless.
Spin on a control roll also rewards an otherwise meaningless margin of sucess. Normally you either control the spell or you don't, it's a binary outcome. The rule can also only completely negate the stress cost for calling power at your Conviction or lower, as it only ever reduces the cost by one (and if you're calling power at your Conviction then you're not likely to generate Spin on control unless you're conviction is extremely low anyway).
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Well let's take this spin rule and see how it might possibly be abused. So it has to be a rote spell and the control roll must be at least 3 shifts higher than the difficulty of the spell.
A 3 power spell requires 6 discipline and can be used to create manoeuvres or deal damage as a 'Good attack' with Weapon:3 without mental stress.
Or you can pay stress to cast a 'Fantastic attack' at Weapon:6 doing twice the amount of damage and probably taking an opponent straight out rather than just tickling him with the 'good' attack.
Hmm, I guess it could be seen as fair for those mages that have run out of stress, but a rote with a fate point added on to the control roll would be pretty lethal still.
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How about this, the spin doesn't reduce stress by one, instead it reduces the power by one (or adds one free power, either way). This means that for the 'Average attack' spells we were originally talking about, it could cost no stress because the spell is effectively a zero power spell, no power no stress. That would also mean spin could deal one extra damage for other spells, but still cost mental stress.
I think that might be a fair way of seeing it. That 'Good Attack' spell would now be considered a 'Great Attack' as it's been controlled so well it hits a weak spot or something.
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See, I think that adding plus one to the effect when rolling spin is too powerful and broken... However, look at something like this.
Inhuman Strength and Superb Weapons gives 3-4 damage at range for 'free' or 3-5 damage in same zone. (-2 Refresh)
Evocation and Superb Discipline, Fair Conviction gives 2 damage at range for 'free' if you take a Rote for it (-3 Refresh, though admittedly a lot more flexible)
Pure Mortal with a handgun and Superb Guns: 2 damage at range for 'free' (-0 Refresh, 3 more damage with shotguns/rifles)
Seems entirely reasonable to me.
Also, some people seem to be under the impression that the rule only applies to Rotes... If you're going to limit it to either Rotes/normal spells then it should really not apply to Rotes since you're technically not rolling and therefore not generating spin. It's even less potentially unbalancing if limited to just normal spells than it is if you can use it on Rotes as well.
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hey, its your game, so if you convince your GM to run with it great. But it seems you are trying to 'balance' a small part of evocation against the rest of the game, when evocation as a whole is already balanced for its cost. This feels like making a powerful ability more powerful simply for the sake of getting free stuff for a character you want. You compare evocation effects with what a pure mortal can do with a gun, but you neglect the fact that the evocator has access to guns, but the pure mortal doesn't have access to evocation, which gets to pick its weapon value on the fly, and which can do a hell of a lot more than throw damage around.
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Ok, now i'm thoroughly confused...
Evocation generates shifts... since the Control Roll is the Attack roll at the same time, the shifts add to damage. So at least for attacks, there is no meaningless margin of succes.
Maneuvers are a different matter, controlling the summoned power is everything that counts here. So yes, i can see how thats an issue, but it'S not really a large issue the way i see it.
Regarding the original Topic of this thread:
How about using a bastardisation of the duration rule.
Make this Fists power a Weapon:2 "Attack" evocation. Add 3 shifts for duration. -> Power 5 evocation.
Use Fists in the next three rounds to attack with said Weapon:2.
I'd house rule that you cannot attack with that Weapon:2 Evocation on its own, so no attack in the exchange in wich you cast it. But thats a more than reasonable tradeoff i think. And since you still need to roll for the following attacks it's not much of a problem in terms of balance.
It reduces the stress required for use of the Chi-fists, but does not totally eliminate it.
You could compare it to a continuous stream of fire directed at a target, that you need to target again each round. Only istead of using discipline to target it, you use Fists.
Of course it takes a measure of common sense to decide what to allow here. Because if you increase the power level of that Attack it can get unbalanced quite quickly. 3xWeapon:4 instead of 1xWeapon:7 is much more powerful than 3xW:2 instead of 1xW:5.
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hey, its your game, so if you convince your GM to run with it great. But it seems you are trying to 'balance' a small part of evocation against the rest of the game, when evocation as a whole is already balanced for its cost. This feels like making a powerful ability more powerful simply for the sake of getting free stuff for a character you want. You compare evocation effects with what a pure mortal can do with a gun, but you neglect the fact that the evocator has access to guns, but the pure mortal doesn't have access to evocation, which gets to pick its weapon value on the fly, and which can do a hell of a lot more than throw damage around.
Some fair points, but actually it's not my game, and I'd apply it/want to apply it in games where I GM or don't even play a caster. I don't think it's a good rule because of the mechanical aspects, I think it's a good rule because it's, in my opinion truer to the books and I think that makes it worthwhile even if it is a little unbalancing, which I don't believe it is to a significant degree.
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also mortals get 2 extra refresh and don't have as much need for a high conviction. Wizards can take guns too but they rarely have the skill points left over to do so effectively, and never have the stunts to use them as effectively as most true mortals would. The average gun nowadays is going to have about a clip size of 15 and a weapon rating of 2 in this game, so I see no reason for pure mortals not to have a weapon 2, uses: 45 item on them at all times. So it doesn't seem that ridiculous to me for Wizards to have something similar with spin rules on evocation. Even at fully submerged the best he'll be able to do is a weapon 2 or weapon 3 attack whenever he wants, which isn't any different than a true mortal. And as for unbalancing, well, that wouldn't happen until a 12+ refresh game. And to be honest any mortal playing at that level should have a lot of leeway from the GM to compete anyway (advanced technologies, items of power, etc) so I don't think it would necessarily make wizard's overpowered even at higher levels.
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But it seems you are trying to 'balance' a small part of evocation against the rest of the game, when evocation as a whole is already balanced for its cost. This feels like making a powerful ability more powerful simply for the sake of getting free stuff for a character you want.
If you read... well, pretty much every post I've made here, you'll see that's the last thing I want. I'm trying to create a weaker character here, not a stronger one. Instead of throwing around big spells, he uses little spells. Unfortunately the rules make small spells a waste of time, due to the cost of them. A weak focused practioner will have already spent -2 or -4 refresh on a talent without getting the full use out of it, so making him pay more refresh is crippling and redundant considering what he should already be capable of doing. Removing channelling entirely for something like claws limits the character even further and still doesn't really recreate the character concept.
The concept isn't broken, isn't abusing the rules, isn't overpowered at all. It fits right in to the dresden universe (I'm not trying to create a magical plumber that jumps on the heads of his enemies and doubles in size if he eats a mushroom or a man of steel that can leap tall buildings here), the concept of a weak/young/untrained magic user is pretty classic for any universe that has wizards in and there are a whole bunch of abilities they have which will make them slightly more effective in a conflict.
I don't care if it's a +1 or a +2, if it applies to damage only, to the chance to hit only or to some other aspect of the conflict. It doesn't need to be a 'free' ability, precisely the opposite, it should still cost, but it shouldn't cost the same as some reality-breaking evocation. If I wanted to have an all-powerful character I would.
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You're right Tsunami, for some reason I thought that the power of the spell was the power of the attack for a rote as there's no control roll but you're right, the power of the attack equals your discipline and so there are no spare 'shifts' that can be used as spin. I'd say a maneuver would generate extra shifts but with only one free tag, I'd have the same problem as my old ideas. Adding tags on would increase the power level massively again which defeats the entire point.
Your idea to add duration to the evocation spell is pretty much idea number 2 in my original post and still doesn't really work for the same reason. Either it costs lots of energy to go for the 3 or 4 rounds, or it costs little power with the need to top it up mid-combat and only working on alternate rounds. As you said, it can also be abused a little too easily as, I think, can any idea when Weapon:X is variable on the power spent which is why I started down the aspect/manoeuvre route.
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Honestly, I'd throw in with JG and feliscon on evocation spin. Admittedly, it would probably work even better if there was such a thing as fractions of stress, so that instead of reducing the stress to zero, it only reduces it to a quarter or something.
As it is, though, it does give a much better reason to go for a low power/high control type of character, as well as giving more reason to use low powered spells.
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I'm actually curious as to where in the books we see temporarily enchanted weapons? All of the magic weapons I can think of fall under the Item of Power or Enchanted Item rules.
I'm still of the opinion that using an evocation maneuver to give an item a new Aspect like "flaming sword" is a good way to go, and the easiest.
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Well that's true Wordmaker, however you can only tag the aspect once without spending fate points. It seems both odd and generally weak to have to spend fate points for each time you swing your sword, especially as you spend your first standard action just creating the manoeuvre in the first place. Of course you can add further tags for each additional 3 shifts of power you spend, but that doesn't work either.
The benefit of aspects is that it can be used for a variety of different spell effects, plus it adds the possibility of it being compelled against you which is interesting (fiery swords are dangerous).
I think you're right Ala Alba, at the moment Feliscon's house rule seems to work best at the moment, though it doesn't fix the problem it at least provides a fair rule for this particular situation. Other ideas are welcome though as we've got four more sessions of pathfinder to go before we start our Dresden campaign in London :)
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Feliscon's house rule seems to work best at the moment
It's not actually my rule, can't remember who to credit off the top of my head, sorry. Though I do seem to have become the Evocation Spin rule's unofficial champion on the forum ;)
Honestly, I just think it fits the source material better, and should be a part of everyone's game, but I won't try to force it on people who disagree.
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Eh, it can get bad. I mean, my current Warden on the PBP Forum could get Weapon: 4 effects using that rule...which seems to make mundane combat, with blade or gun (something Wardens clearly need to use in the books) somewhat obsolete and unnecessary.
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This is my main concern... maybe "at skill 5+, 1-2 shift powers cost no stress." as opposed to just 3 over...
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But you wouldn't have to spend a Fate Point every time you swing the sword, just every time you wanted some real "oomph" from it. Like hiding behind a car for cover. You don't have to spend a Fate Point every time you're shot at, only the times you need to call on the narrative protection of the car being between you and your attacker.
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This is my main concern... maybe "at skill 5+, 1-2 shift powers cost no stress." as opposed to just 3 over...
I think the version I like best is that you can channel up to your Power Specialization in a particular Element for free...though that wouldn't help CMEast's particular character too much.
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Wordmaker: So then how do you see 'Flaming Sword' or 'Fists of Chi' working as aspects then? Do you mean that a person could use the aspect with a fate point to get +2 on their attack role every so often, but otherwise attack normally? Would a character that didn't previously have a sword, now be able to use the weapon skill when rolling to attack without invoking Flaming Sword?
My Wizard-Blooded Martial Artist can already use his high-concept with a fate point to get a +2 on attack, otherwise he uses his fists. How would creating an additional 'Chi focus' aspect change the conflict in any way apart from taking up a standard action and the one free tag following that?
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DMW. I think that sounds fair to me, again it doesn't help my situation much, but it does at least give people a reason why they might use weaker spells and it also helps when a wizard runs out of mental stress... but I don't know if a wizard should be helped in that regard really.
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DMW... I love you.
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in a strictly plutonic sort of way of course >_>
:P
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DMW... I love you.
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in a strictly plutonic sort of way of course >_>
:P
Noted. 8)
And it wasn't originally my idea, just one I ran across...somewhere on this board, a while back. I think in the first thread I ran into with the Evocation Spin rule in it, actually. It's just my preferred balance-point if you think spellcasters should have access to no-Stress-cost effects, and a fairly elegant solution, IMO.
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Eh, it can get bad. I mean, my current Warden on the PBP Forum could get Weapon: 4 effects using that rule...which seems to make mundane combat, with blade or gun (something Wardens clearly need to use in the books) somewhat obsolete and unnecessary.
In the books Harry specifically says that Wardens carry the swords because they're not allowed to kill with magic... Also, Luccio uses her 'needle of fire' as her weapon of choice, which Harry describes as "fire magic not unlike my own, but infinitely more intense and focused and far more energy efficient." I think if you have Epic control, a 4 shift rote without stress is reasonable. It seems fairly standard for more experienced casters to be able to do that kind of thing.
Also, if you're going to base it on specialisations rather than Spin, surely Control makes more sense than Power?
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In the books Harry specifically says that Wardens carry the swords because they're not allowed to kill with magic...
Sure, but that doesn't explain the use of guns, swords, and grenades in actual battle (something that clearly occurs...look at the fight scene at the end of Dead Beat. Or the duel in White Night).
Also, Luccio uses her 'needle of fire' as her weapon of choice, which Harry describes as "fire magic not unlike my own, but infinitely more intense and focused and far more energy efficient." I think if you have Epic control, a 4 shift rote without stress is reasonable. It seems fairly standard for more experienced casters to be able to do that kind of thing.
Luccio does precisely that...but I'm not clear that she doesn't take Mental Stress from it. The 'more energy efficient' might just be noting that she does 9 shifts of energy without frying her brain or the surroundings. She certainly uses it infrequently enough that that's what it could be. Also, she likely has a Power specialty of at least 3, so even if you want it to be Stress-free it's doable with my suggestion.
What we don't see is Ramirez using such things when he's low on energy...we see him either dissolving things with Weapon: 6 entropy blasts or shooting a gun, which considering it's Weapon: 3 and he has only Fair or Good Skill, makes no sense at all if he could do Weapon: 3 Water Evocations with his effective Skill of Fantastic.
Also, if you're going to base it on specialisations rather than Spin, surely Control makes more sense than Power?
Not really, no. The point is that you can channel X power so easily that you don't even take Stress. Power Specialization makes more sense for that, as well as making Power a bit more useful (which it needs more than Control does).
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Hmmm... Fair points. I would consider the specialisation rule as an alternative, but I think that the ES rule is still preferable given it's nice tie in to existing Fate rules. Who knows? I haven't actually played much, with practical experience I may change my mind...
For now I think I'll use ES if possible, with the specialisation as an alternative to offer to GMs who don't like ES.
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I wouldn't be surprised if such things are not people using multi-turn Evocation Attacks. So, you're still paying a point of Stress for the spell, you just don't have to pay one this turn. I'm rather surprised there aren't rules for it, I see no reason why DOTs shouldn't exist in the dresdenverse (though I'd not have them give more DPStress than any other attack).
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Wordmaker: So then how do you see 'Flaming Sword' or 'Fists of Chi' working as aspects then? Do you mean that a person could use the aspect with a fate point to get +2 on their attack role every so often, but otherwise attack normally? Would a character that didn't previously have a sword, now be able to use the weapon skill when rolling to attack without invoking Flaming Sword?
My Wizard-Blooded Martial Artist can already use his high-concept with a fate point to get a +2 on attack, otherwise he uses his fists. How would creating an additional 'Chi focus' aspect change the conflict in any way apart from taking up a standard action and the one free tag following that?
Whether a summoned ethereal weapon would be used with Fists or Weapons depends on the weapon and the group.
As for your martial artist, maybe using your High Concept is how he empowers his punches. Or, he could create the Aspect "Chi Focus," and use the free tag along with an invoke of "Wizard-Blooded Martial Artist" for a whopping +4 to his Fists result.
Come to think of it, if you've got the time to prepare, you could stack up several Aspects on yourself through evocation maneuvers for one massively powerful attack from your free tags. Very Dragonball Z!
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I think the version I like best is that you can channel up to your Power Specialization in a particular Element for free...though that wouldn't help CMEast's particular character too much.
DMW - this option is like the total rock and awe. I just had to say it. It's so much more elegant and ... I dunno ... sensible than the spin rule. I like it a lot!
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From http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17367.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17367.0.html)
Rituals: Biomancy would be full of things like supercharging your muscles (an effect that gives you, say, Weapon:2 with your bare hands for a couple scenes) and so on. For people to say "biomancy is only effective if it gives me full shapeshifting for a cheaper cost than the people who are actual shapeshifters and have paid to be that" is both missing the point and angling for a way to cheat (the latter, hopefully, unintentional).
Ok, so one last time on this topic I promise :) I'm debating whether to just take claws as a supernatural power simply because I dislike house rules. I did find this little gem from iago which means it IS possible to create a ritual like this, any idea as to how I go about it as, quite frankly, I'm still trying to get my head around calculating complexity for thaumaturgy. My character has a conviction and lore of 2 and a discipline of 4. For instance if I cast the spell so that it lasted for the day, where is an appropriate place to start counting time increments from to work out the shifts required for duration?
Thanks again :)
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Here's a fairly simple ritual I worked out for you:
Empower Chi Strikes
This ritual is based on ancient Shaolin medication techniques, combined with western magical practices to make up for a lack of in-depth knowledge of eastern mysticism. It allows the caster to focus their chi into an efficient, brutal energy field around his hands and fists, which is then triggered by the correct fighting moves in combat.
Complexity: 4
Duration: One Scene
Effect: The caster may use Fists to make Weapon:2 attacks
Notes: I based the complexity as follows:
- 2 Shifts for each level of Weapon
- 1 Shift for a "stunt" allowing the caster to use Fists to direct the attack
- 1 Shift to change the duration from Exchange to Scene.
If you wanted to make it a little easier to cast, you could remove the requirement for the shift to let the caster use Fists for the attack.
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- 2 Shifts for each level of Weapon
- 1 Shift for a "stunt" allowing the caster to use Fists to direct the attack
- 1 Shift to change the duration from Exchange to Scene.
If you wanted to make it a little easier to cast, you could remove the requirement for the shift to let the caster use Fists for the attack.
That makes it sound like 4 shifts for Weapon: 2 rather than one shift per Weapon point, and I don't think you need the 'stunt' anyway, saying it uses Fists to attack is within the rules already and in fact technically makes it less effective for most casters as it limits the range to within the same zone. I also think that the ritual would probably have 15 mins/one scene as the basic duration and increase from there with extra shifts applied to duration.
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Thanks Wordmaker, nice flavour text too :)
I've got a few questions though, I can't find any rules about using rituals to create effects that trigger at will/under certain conditions. Do I just need to declare that's how the spell works? So if the effect lasts for the scene, would adding additional duration allow it to be triggered again for an additional scene similar to an enchanted item? Or would it just make the original effect last longer?
My character has a lore of two, so to cast a spell of complexity six for instance (for added duration) I could make a declaration using my fists skill to add a further two and then invoke my high concept 'Wizard-Blooded Martial Artist' for a further two. The ritual would be my Tai Chi ritual, a symbolic link as I'm the target and I'm also the power source too.
So how long would this ritual take? Would I be meditating for half the day or is this a 30 minute ritual? I think under pressure I could do it in two exchanges but is it different when not under pressure?
Finally, I can't see any mention of taking 'rote' rituals but my character would cast this every morning as part of his routine. Do you think it's possible to use up a 'rote slot' to either add complexity or reduce duration?
*edit* Oh and I had guessed the starting duration for the spell would be a scene too feliscon, would be interesting to see what others think.
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Addendum to what follows: I'm not sure I'd allow this in a game I was running; while this example isn't broken, one could easily use the same method to construct a ritual that *is* totally overpowered; it sets a bad precedent. (No, I won't stat out why I think it's a bad precedent. Suffice to say that free use of weapon:10+ for a scene is not something I want to have any part of, even if it's costing the caster some serious consequence slots.)
However, if your GM is willing to let you, this is how I'd go about making (and using) such a ritual.
Fist-Focused Chi:
2 shifts for a power 2 attack
4 shifts to upgrade duration from "a few moments" to "15 minutes" (See the time chart in the reference section at the back of the book).
This assumes that 15 minutes is about one scene; I must admit I find it a bit odd that the time chart is mostly in real time units, while everything else is exchange / scene based.
Now, how to cast this. As per page 261, "about a minute" is the smallest amount of time you can get away with for preparing a ritual, even if the actual casting part only takes an exchange or three. However, since this particular ritual is well over your lore skill, you're going to have to cut some corners if you need to actually toss it off that quickly.
Probably your best option for high-speed casting would be spending a fate point to invoke your high concept, and accepting a minor consequence. (For example, a minor mental consequence of "Too focused" that could be compelled to make you miss details or speak in one word sentences.)
If you've got a bit more time ("a mini-scene", which I'd interpret as maybe five to ten minutes), you could replace one of those prices with a skill check to apply an appropriate aspect - probably fists, here, and an aspect relating to various warm-up exercises / katas. You'd still need to pay either a fate point or a minor consequence, but could get away with just one of 'em.
If you've somehow got enough time beforehand for two mini-scenes, you could try to make a second skill check - perhaps discipline for a "focused mind" aspect - and then get your effect with neither fate point nor consequence.
If you want to cast this at the beginning of every day, I'd allow that as just something you do... but it would only be of any use if you get into a fight within 15 minutes of leaving your home; not exactly the most useful option.
And if you want a version that lasts all day, that's another five steps up the time chart... hm... Well, four steps up is "an afternoon", which is listed as more than "a few hours"... Let's assume that time span is good enough to run from a bit after dawn until dusk; that should be sufficient. That'd be a complexity 10 ritual; you could spend a fate point, take a minor consequence, and apply both of the skill checks listed above, taking maybe a bit less than half an hour to get ready for a day you know will be full of combat.
Of course, spending a fate point a day isn't likely to be sustainable, so this is something you'd use only when you were sure you'd need it.
You might also want to look into getting a focus item for your rituals; see page 278. Two item slots could give you an item that gives +2 lore for purposes of ritual preparation; that'd cut down the prices listed above by a substantial margin, effectively replacing a single skill check, fate point, or minor consequence.
(Edit) Looking over the duration rules, it seems that a ritual built like this should only give you *one* free weapon:2 attack, sometime within the next fifteen minutes. I'm guessing Wordmaker's two shifts per level of weapon might be a bit more balanced for something that allows multiple attacks - in other words, instead of making a single attack, you're "conjuring" up an actual "weapon". That'd effectively add two to the complexity of the above listed rituals, which neatly cancels with the addition of a ritual focus item. Oh, well.(/Edit)
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Addendum to what follows: I'm not sure I'd allow this in a game I was running; while this example isn't broken, one could easily use the same method to construct a ritual that *is* totally overpowered; it sets a bad precedent. (No, I won't stat out why I think it's a bad precedent. Suffice to say that free use of weapon:10+ for a scene is not something I want to have any part of, even if it's costing the caster some serious consequence slots.)
However, if your GM is willing to let you, this is how I'd go about making (and using) such a ritual.
Fist-Focused Chi:
2 shifts for a power 2 attack
4 shifts to upgrade duration from "a few moments" to "15 minutes" (See the time chart in the reference section at the back of the book).
This assumes that 15 minutes is about one scene; I must admit I find it a bit odd that the time chart is mostly in real time units, while everything else is exchange / scene based.
Now, how to cast this. As per page 261, "about a minute" is the smallest amount of time you can get away with for preparing a ritual, even if the actual casting part only takes an exchange or three. However, since this particular ritual is well over your lore skill, you're going to have to cut some corners if you need to actually toss it off that quickly.
Probably your best option for high-speed casting would be spending a fate point to invoke your high concept, and accepting a minor consequence. (For example, a minor mental consequence of "Too focused" that could be compelled to make you miss details or speak in one word sentences.)
If you've got a bit more time ("a mini-scene", which I'd interpret as maybe five to ten minutes), you could replace one of those prices with a skill check to apply an appropriate aspect - probably fists, here, and an aspect relating to various warm-up exercises / katas. You'd still need to pay either a fate point or a minor consequence, but could get away with just one of 'em.
If you've somehow got enough time beforehand for two mini-scenes, you could try to make a second skill check - perhaps discipline for a "focused mind" aspect - and then get your effect with neither fate point nor consequence.
If you want to cast this at the beginning of every day, I'd allow that as just something you do... but it would only be of any use if you get into a fight within 15 minutes of leaving your home; not exactly the most useful option.
And if you want a version that lasts all day, that's another five steps up the time chart... hm... Well, four steps up is "an afternoon", which is listed as more than "a few hours"... Let's assume that time span is good enough to run from a bit after dawn until dusk; that should be sufficient. That'd be a complexity 10 ritual; you could spend a fate point, take a minor consequence, and apply both of the skill checks listed above, taking maybe a bit less than half an hour to get ready for a day you know will be full of combat.
Of course, spending a fate point a day isn't likely to be sustainable, so this is something you'd use only when you were sure you'd need it.
You might also want to look into getting a focus item for your rituals; see page 278. Two item slots could give you an item that gives +2 lore for purposes of ritual preparation; that'd cut down the prices listed above by a substantial margin, effectively replacing a single skill check, fate point, or minor consequence.
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I like this. It's pretty much what I was trying to say, but wyvern said it better!
-EF
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Re: spell duration: I'm basing this off the fact that most of the sample rituals that result in damage being caused are instant (ie: one exchange) effects. So increasing the complexity by one to have it last for a scene is pretty fair, in my book.
This would mean that you wouldn't really do this at the start of each day. Instead you'd wait until you were just about to fight someone tough and then do it.
Also, the duration of every sample thaumaturgy ritual is given in terms of exchange, scene, session, etc. Not minutes or hours. So I'd see it as acceptable that you wouldn't use the time chart for working out how long a spell like this lasts, particularly because it's combat related.
Though it you wanted to use the time chart, it's fair, and works better for a "I do this every morning" type of spell.
On that note, you can only use rote slots for evocations. Thaumaturgy is too complex and dependent on the ever-changing rules of magic. So if you wanted a version of this ritual that you use every morning and wanted it to last a full day, it would probably be quite difficult to perform, as mentioned above.
As for how long a given ritual takes. If the ritual complexity is below your Lore, you can get it done in as much time as it takes to draw a circle and say a few words, so less than 5 minutes in most cases. Of course, if your Lore isn't high enough, you need to spend some time invoking Aspects, making declarations, etc.
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I'd say a ritual with complexity of your Lore or less (including invoking Aspects) is fast enough to start in combat, as there is at least one, and arguably two, examples of Harry using Thaumaturgy in combat in the books.
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Re: spell duration: I'm basing what I said off the duration rules listed on YS 266, and the fact that a lot of those example rituals have listings like "Duration: until Sunrise" and "Complexity: 6-12, depending on duration" - for example, the Dreamless Sleep spells on YS 296.
Of course, one could make an argument that you're "conjuring" a "weapon", which would reasonably default to a one scene duration to start with. See YS 274 for the rules on that; it looks like the base complexity would be 3, plus some ad-hoc increase for the fact that the energies you're calling up aren't actually a separate item and you can't be physically disarmed short of being, well, literally disarmed (an extreme consequence at a minimum, if not outright fatal.) Probably somewhere around complexity 5-7? Up to your GM, really.
I think I actually like the conjuration version better; it has the advantage that it doesn't imply one can keep scaling the ritual up to higher weapon values. And it means that a clever opponent could do things like use social maneuvers to try and make you lose your focus - in essence, a non-physical disarm attempt against your not-a-physical-item "weapon"; a version subject to such disruptions seems like it'd be at the lower end of the options; a mere complexity five ritual. (See, also, "Can I conjure a sword?" on YS 275.)
Feliscon: That sounds like a perfectly reasonable house rule, especially if it's something your character has used a lot (maybe a mechanic similar to how rotes work for evocation?) Still, there should probably be some cost to cutting (even more) corners that way; I'd say at least an exchange spent on "preparation" (Whether that's drawing a circle, or using some set of meditative martial arts stances is up to you), and possibly some penalty on the casting checks to account for less-than-ideal setup, or an aspect like "Sloppy casting" that your foes can compel against you later on? Of course, as a house rule, exact details would be up to your GM.
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Well it's not really a house rule, as the time taken to prepare for a ritual isn't clearly defined in the rules in the first place. Harry uses thaumaturgy in combat to defeat Bianca, and arguably the spell he uses to kill the loup-garou is thaumaturgy as well (more energy efficient by neccessity of him being nearly drained, using the pentacle to create a circle, focussing the power over more than one exchange). Not to mention all the smaller quick spells like his tracking spells and binding the loup-garou that seem like they're fast enough to pull off in combat provided someone can cover him long enough to not get the circle broken by an enemy (I think that's the more serious practical limitation of thaumaturgy in combat, not time requirements).
If you want casters to have to set up the circle first, have them do a manouvre with Lore to put the aspect 'Casting Space' on the scene. This represents them drawing a circle, and opposed manouvres to remove the aspect represent attempts to disrupt it and ruin the spell.