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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: CyberMusketeer on May 26, 2010, 09:25:45 PM
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One of my players is trying to create a fist full of sleeping powder as an enchanted item. Currently, we have it stated as an attack with taken out / consequences just being narrated accordingly. He will need a skill to target it (blowing it in their face is the described action) so we're leaning toward Stealth (since he's trying to be sneaky about it) but I could also see it being Weapons. IMO, the damage is against the physical stress track, though the player was pushing for mental.
How would the rest of you handle this item?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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I'd definitely go with it being Weapons. Stealth is never an attack skill normally, and I see no justification for that changing in this item. I might allow it to target Mental Stress, though. Aside from that, I'd say that looks about right.
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I'd definitely go with it being Weapons. Stealth is never an attack skill normally, and I see no justification for that changing in this item. I might allow it to target Mental Stress, though. Aside from that, I'd say that looks about right.
I concur. Seems like a weapon to me too. Not sure on the type of action though. Perhaps it could be treated as a long term block, since that seems to be possible with enchanted items... Are you treating it as an enchanted item or as a potion?
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I concur. Seems like a weapon to me too. Not sure on the type of action though. Perhaps it could be treated as a long term block, since that seems to be possible with enchanted items... Are you treating it as an enchanted item or as a potion?
We were building it as an enchanted item. I considered doing it as a block, but it didn't feel right. The desired effect was the person hit with it would be out of the scene until they 'woke up'. This sounded like a taken out / concession result, so we didn't spent a whole lot of time debating how to work it as a block. Also a block that was pretty much 'you can't do anything' seemed pretty harsh if I turned it against the players and once the item is out there, it's possible it could fall into the wrong hands.
I know Stealth isn't usually used as an attack, but the character using this powder would have no reason to have the Weapons skill outside this item. The character isn't the physical type, and this is meant to be an ace up the sleeve type move. Seemed harsh to push for a new skill to support that.
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We were building it as an enchanted item. I considered doing it as a block, but it didn't feel right. The desired effect was the person hit with it would be out of the scene until they 'woke up'. This sounded like a taken out / concession result, so we didn't spent a whole lot of time debating how to work it as a block. Also a block that was pretty much 'you can't do anything' seemed pretty harsh if I turned it against the players and once the item is out there, it's possible it could fall into the wrong hands.
That's definitely a taken out result, you're right. The "block against anything" version is probably too powerful, unless you treat it like the grapple rules and require the character to tag or invoke a relevant Aspect to initiate the maneuver.
I know Stealth isn't usually used as an attack, but the character using this powder would have no reason to have the Weapons skill outside this item. The character isn't the physical type, and this is meant to be an ace up the sleeve type move. Seemed harsh to push for a new skill to support that.
Makes sense, and there's precedent for non-traditional attack skills with enchanted items (Harry gets to use Discipline instead of Guns to aim and fire his force ring, after all). I'd probably say Deceit was the more appropriate skill for a surprise "ace up the sleeve" attack, though.
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Deceit is probably a better choice for targeting, over stealth, since deceit covers small hand movements like picking pockets and stage magic, while stealth is much more about moving the whole body around. Or, if trying to do it in combat, fists is a good alternative skill.
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This is an off the wall idea, but you might want to make it a "grapple" that is opposed by alertness. That would restrict the guys actions the way you want to, and it would have the thematic element of actually putting him asleep. As for the skill used to apply it, if you use it in combat, it should absolutely be fists or weapons being used. Otherwise, I agree with crusher about using deceit to use it.
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Well, if Weapons isn't appropriate Discipline always is. It's more-or-less the default attack skill for magic anyway, so it makes sense.
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Sounds like a Maneuver to me. It doesn't make any sense for you to get a little bit sleepy with each dose of sleeping powder; either it's enough to knock you out, eventually, or you're badass enough to ignore it. And there's no way it'd take 3 or 4 'doses' of sleeping powder to put someone to sleep, that seems decidedly un-cinematic. (Though it works with tranq darts)
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I created some mercenary opposition wielding tranquilizer darts to set against my players last night.
In this case, I opted to call it a Weapons Maneuver to place the Aspect 'Fighting to Stay Awake,' which I then Compelled with a Fate Point to make the player lose their action. I didn't feel confident either a) taking the player out completely, or b) spending a few FPs to keep the player tied up for a few rounds.
An NPC friend who also got tranq'd was taken out of the combat, and would stay that way until one of the players succeeded in removing that Aspect.
I suspect I was being too nice?
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Look at the Mind Fog example thaumaturgical spell. Use an manuever to apply an aspect that will be immediately compelled.
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A similar thread came up some time ago about the mechanics of sleep spells. And this was my favorite build for it.
If, as you seem to be saying, the target can be awakened, I don't see any reason to go through the work of making it a taken out result. Unless the enemies are refusing to take consequences, taken out results are alot of shifts worth of spell power.
I wouldn't even make it an attack. Just make a spell a maneuver to place the Sticky Aspect "Fighting to Stay Awake" (devonapple gave the best wording I've seen so far) on the target. On your next turn, tag the aspect for effect to put the target to sleep. Anyone who takes an action to remove the Sticky aspect is effectively trying to wake the target.
Poof! a passable sleep spell for almost no shifts.
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Spells and items like that would be physical stress if they are poisons/biomancy and mental stress if they are straight spiritual effects.
However, I disagree with people saying a stress-based item or spell is not worth the trouble. Consider that a wizard would attack with Discipline (presumably +4 at least and usually +5) or even his own control roll for a spell (+6 for most beginner wizards but as high as +10 for a submerged mind-mage) and enemy defends with Discipline. Also consider that the effect would be a Weapon 4 mental attack for an enchanted item based on Lore, a weapon 6 mental attack for a stunner/sleepining spell from a beginner wizard and as much as weapon 8-10 deep slumber spell from a submerged mindmage. How many enemies have a full mental stress track and high discipline to boot?
Against an average enemy (discipline defense of 3) the enchanted item would do on average 5-6 mental stress, the sleep spell would do 9 mental stress and the mind-mage's slumber spell would do as much as 15 mental stress. So all of them would at least deal one consequence - which in addition to being taggable, it is ALSO an aspect that can be compelled even if the spell does not acheive take-out.
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The skill you'd use to deliver the powder would depend on the way you were delivering it. I'd not allow stealth as an attack skill itself, but you could consider it as a modifier to the skill you are using.
As far as effects go, I think Belial666 has covered why it should deal stress rather than simply be a maneuver or a block. I'd agree also that you could attack either the mental or the physical track depending on how you view the powder working. If it's designed to simply put the mind into sleep mode then use the mental track, or you could have it drawing energy out of the body - basically targetting the opponent's endurance - until it is forced to sleep.
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If you're slipping the powder into someone's drink, I would not use Weapons. Deceit sounds like the right fit (possibly modified by Stealth?).
If your trying hit them in the face with it, that sounds like Weapons to me.
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However, I disagree with people saying a stress-based item or spell is not worth the trouble. Consider that a wizard would attack with Discipline (presumably +4 at least and usually +5) or even his own control roll for a spell (+6 for most beginner wizards but as high as +10 for a submerged mind-mage) and enemy defends with Discipline. Also consider that the effect would be a Weapon 4 mental attack for an enchanted item based on Lore, a weapon 6 mental attack for a stunner/sleepining spell from a beginner wizard and as much as weapon 8-10 deep slumber spell from a submerged mindmage. How many enemies have a full mental stress track and high discipline to boot?
Against an average enemy (discipline defense of 3) the enchanted item would do on average 5-6 mental stress, the sleep spell would do 9 mental stress and the mind-mage's slumber spell would do as much as 15 mental stress. So all of them would at least deal one consequence - which in addition to being taggable, it is ALSO an aspect that can be compelled even if the spell does not acheive take-out.
This is a perfect example of why a sleep spell SHOULDN'T be a stress dealing attack. It doesn't make thematic sense. Either 1) the target takes a minor consequence. From the examples given I would not let a Minor consequence take a target out of the fight entirely. or 2) the target takes a more powerful consequence and you're saying hes walking around under the effects of this spell for days or even weeks later (Unless you're a faerie, I don't think you're trying to put people to sleep for years).
A maneuver is simpler. Its less shifts to pull off. And it gets the thematic effect of the spell without overkill.
P.S. While it is true that an attack version could attack either mental (controlling the mind to go into sleep state), or physical (putting the body into a quasiparalysis identical to sleep), it is important to remember that the former is a breach of the 4th law.
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You don't need to control the mind - or even invade it - to make someone sleep. Just drain their energy and cause mental exhaustion (as if they'd used magic) until they fall asleep.
As for consequences of putting someone to sleep, most mammals that take a large enough dose of sedatives to knock them out in minutes are sleepy, have low metabolism and are mildly disoriented for many hours after they wake up. Someone taking a strong enough sedative to knock them out in seconds is going to have problems for significantly longer than that - or even permanent damage. That for chemicals - stress and consequences reflect the side effects very well. No reason those should not apply for a long time.
Enchanted sleep that would be entirely without side effects would not really be in line with what we have seen on mind magic - unless the wizard was very good in delicate work. Dresden's sleep spell did not have side effects because it was not a combat evocation instant knockout - and also because it was cast on an unresisting target.
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People really need to read the description of mental stress before you decide to deal it. Mental stress is not "Draining energy" or punching someone else's mind with your mind. Mental stress represents someone's sense of self, who you believe you are at your core. It is self-confidence and faith in your beliefs. Under normal circumstances to deal mental stress you must really know your target so that you can make them doubt their own sense of being. As a GM I would rule that dealing ANY mental stress with magic is a very clear violation of the laws unless you are using illusion or similar to show them something that will shake them (using one of the other social skills, but using magic to increase the effect).
In the past I have done a sleeping spell as a physical attack and it worked great but it seems like there are many other options that would also work great.
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I agree with Sinker. If you are using a 'poison' to make someone fall asleep, that is a physical attack. Mental stress is not 'stun damage' as it is in other games, it represents damage to you psyche or a reduced ability to fend off attacks against your will.
As to mechanics, if you want to create an effect that will simply knock someone out completely, your only option is a take-out. Against nameless NPCs, this isn't too hard (you just need enough to get past their stress tracks), but against stronger targets, you'll need a stronger effect.
Applying an aspect is a good way to make a weaker version of this sort of attack. Once applied, simply compel sleep. The target then will either fall asleep (accept the compel) or will have to spend a Fate point to "fight off drowsiness". And you can choose to continue compelling until the stickiness wears off. You can create this effect by either a maneuver-based Aspect or by an attack that results in a Consequence. The advantage of the latter is that it will tend to be longer-lasting (and also results in stress which might come in handy if the target fights off the effect).
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Mental stress is not "Draining energy" or punching someone else's mind with your mind.
No. Really? Then the Domination power which is exactly what you described what stress should it be? Physical? Nope. It's Mental. For obviouls reasons. ::)
Mental stress represents someone's sense of self, who you believe you are at your core. It is self-confidence and faith in your beliefs.
How about a White Court Vampire's ability to feed off psychic energy directly through your emotions? ??? No "beliefs" are involved - just emotions and draining of psychic energy. It is not your faith that is undermined there.
Under normal circumstances to deal mental stress you must really know your target so that you can make them doubt their own sense of being.
You don't need to know someone to intimidate them. Or torture them. Or supernaturally terrify them. :'(
Last but not least, attacks that affect the soul directly are also mental stress. No reason to affect that pesky mind with all its Lawbreakers when you can eat somebody's soul but as long as you don't kill them, you don't get Lawbreaker. :P
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No. Really? Then the Domination power which is exactly what you described what stress should it be? Physical? Nope. It's Mental. For obviouls reasons.
Yes, and Domination involves not draining energy, but attacking the core of the target's being: their psyche and will. Thus it's mental.
If you force someone to stay still by making them WANT to stay still, that's mental. If you make someone stay still by shocking the crap out of them, it's physical. With physical damage/effects, they might want to do something, and they might try to do something, but their body just isn't capable of following through. With mental damage/effects, they might be fully capable of taking an action, but they can't bring themselves to try, either out of insufficient will, fear, or some other mental cause. Put yet another way, mental damage is damage to what or who you are.
How about a White Court Vampire's ability to feed off psychic energy directly through your emotions? ??? No "beliefs" are involved - just emotions and draining of psychic energy. It is not your faith that is undermined there.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Yes, a WCV attacks your will, your personality, what you are. He's not feeding off your body, he's feeding off of your spirit/soul/however you want to call it. Thus ... you got it, mental attack. Similarly, a RCV's saliva changes your mental state. Thus ... mental damage. When you cast spells, you are feeding what you are into the magic. Mental stress.
You don't need to know someone to intimidate them. Or torture them. Or supernaturally terrify them.
Agreed. Though knowing your victim can certainly aid such attempts. This is why interrogators tend to try to learn as much as they can about their subject, so they can learn what buttons to press, and what methods are most likely to produce results. Different people react differently to different techniques.
Last but not least, attacks that affect the soul directly are also mental stress. No reason to affect that pesky mind with all its Lawbreakers when you can eat somebody's soul but as long as you don't kill them, you don't get Lawbreaker. :P
Mental is not just 'mind'. It is 'self'. As such, mind/soul/spirit/will/emotions are all lumped into 'mental'. Attacks against any are attacks against some part of what makes you "you".
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Firstly YS217:
Between mortals, some sort of prior connection
or justification must exist to inflict mental
stress and consequences. An aspect that defines
a relationship rife with abandonment, emotional
degradation, violence, rape, or other potential
triggers would qualify for this, as it’s assumed
that the relationship has been going on long
enough to justify being vulnerable to this kind
of severe effect. When this is the case, many
actions that qualify as social attacks can affect
the mental stress track.
Certain individuals might also have the
training to accomplish this sort of thing, going
beyond the usual trappings of Intimidation
and into torture, represented by an appropriate
stunt.
And YS218:
The stress and consequences suffered by mental
conflicts are the deepest of the deep—forays
into suicidal thoughts, emotional dependencies,
deep compulsions, and other behaviors and
thoughts typically classified as dysfunctional
in some way or another. Mental damage is the
kind of damage that changes or erodes a person’s
sense of self; suffering enough of these consequences
over time tends to presage a trip to the
mental ward, or at least to permanent counseling.
That’s one of the things that makes mind
magic so dangerous—even when used with
good intention, it can completely scar a person’s
mind beyond repair.
You don't need to know someone to intimidate them. Or torture them. Or supernaturally terrify them. :'(
Finally that is one exception, you generally don't need to know someone to scare them. Most people are scared of similar things. However if you know that person (say that they have a phobia of dogs) you're going to be a lot better at it. Some people won't be scared of the same things either (this is covered briefly by the comment next to intimidation and in the stunts). You try to intimidate Mab without a lot of leverage and she's going to laugh in your face.
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Between mortals, some sort of prior connection or justification must exist to inflict mental stress and consequences.
I think the intent here is that people need some sort of intense relationship in order to be able to inflict mental stress and consequences on one another using mundane means (conversation, manipulation, threats, etc). And this is the real victimization level of intimidation. Chronic abuse. Hitting very hard below the belt. Using personality traits against the victim. Real bad stuff, not just social discomfort. Interrogators with good intel on their subject may be able to inflict similar mental trauma to meet their goals, but the key is that this is for mortals.
For supernatural creatures, spells, etc., I believe this stricture is moot.
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I'm aware that the examples I chose were mortal specific, but what is true of mortals isn't that different for wizards. If a mage is dealing mental stress is he not tearing that person's psyche apart? Read that whole section, starting with Mental conflict on YS217 then tell me that mental stress is not representative of one's inner thoughts and beliefs, of their "soul" so to speak.
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You don't need to know someone to intimidate them. Or torture them.
The problem with that logic is that Intimidation would be social combat, or a social maneuver to place a fearbased aspect on the target. Torture (as Sinker quoted from YS) would be covered by a stunt allowing you to use some Intimidation Trappings as Mental attacks.
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I really have a problem with putting someone to sleep with a maneuver. You do as suggested with compels, then a refresh 11 critter with no chance to gain a fate point is out asleep, & throat promptly slit, or whatever.
Anything that can end a fight in one strike is clearly more than maneuver.
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I really have a problem with putting someone to sleep with a maneuver. You do as suggested with compels, then a refresh 11 critter with no chance to gain a fate point is out asleep, & throat promptly slit, or whatever.
Anything that can end a fight in one strike is clearly more than maneuver.
It does bring up some logistical issues. Any other suggestions for a tranquilizer dart?
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I really have a problem with putting someone to sleep with a maneuver. You do as suggested with compels, then a refresh 11 critter with no chance to gain a fate point is out asleep, & throat promptly slit, or whatever.
Anything that can end a fight in one strike is clearly more than maneuver.
Let's go through this. I think the system is working as intended, here.
First Exchange:
PC: I cast Sleep on the Monster. A offensive Spirit maneuver to put a sticky aspect that lasts 1 scene is 4 shifts. I roll a total of +7 on my discipline. Monster rolls +3 on discipline and gets the aspect "Fighting to stay Awake". I pay the monster a fate point to compel it to fall asleep. The monster has already spent two fate points, so it doesn't have any left to buy out of the compel. It falls asleep, replacing the "Fighting to stay Awake" aspect with an "Asleep" aspect.
Monster: Rolls Discipline as a maneuver to wake up, fails to beat the +7 sleep spell.
Second exchange
PC: Uses the Weapon skill to attack with a knife. Because the bad guy can't resist, he defends with mediocre. The PC has Weapons at Good, and rolls +2, making a Superb (+5) attack. Monster defends with a roll of +1, for only an Average (+1) defense. Monster takes 5 stress, meaningg probably a minor consequence, and then wakes up, as asleep is not the same thing as paralyzed.
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1) Evocation maneuvers last one exchange, plus one exchange per extra shift spent on duration.
2) Where did the monster spend two Fate points? (Or are you just using a case as an example in which the subject had already burned their Fate?)
3) If you want to force a high threshold against waking up, then I think you need to use a Block/Grapple.
In this case, your spell creates the Aspect, the compelled Aspect (assuming the target doesn't simply buy out of the compel) causes 'normal' sleep, and the subject would get 'normal' chances to wake up. I think that this would probably take the form of a Discipline, Endurance, or Alertness roll to wake up, with a difficulty based on environmental effects. For example, if there was a loud gunfight taking place, the difficulty would be quite low (or possibly auto-success). Damage would also translate into an auto-success. If, on the other hand, you cast this on a drowsy guard, sitting behind a desk in a quiet room ... well, in that case there might not be a trigger to even get a roll.
Of course, the sleep would also only last as long as the spell duration, which for evocation would be fairly short.
Another way to model a sleep effect might simply be a block/grapple, with the special effect that the target 'falls asleep' until they break the grapple (or until the stress from the grapple takes them out).
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Why would a sleeping creature get a defense roll of any kind, mediocre or otherwise. Is there some way a sleeping creature can avoid their throat being slit?
Seriously. Putting someone in a situation where they are completely defenseless isn't simply an aspect. No way, no how. It's not even a lower consequence.
To me, you are either "blocking" or "taking the character out."
I just don't see how you could justify it any other way considering how vulnerable the target is.
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Why would a sleeping creature get a defense roll of any kind, mediocre or otherwise. Is there some way a sleeping creature can avoid their throat being slit?
Seriously. Putting someone in a situation where they are completely defenseless isn't simply an aspect. No way, no how. It's not even a lower consequence.
To me, you are either "blocking" or "taking the character out."
I just don't see how you could justify it any other way considering how vulnerable the target is.
What game mechanic are you using to model throat slitting? I was assuming it's like an ambush, with the sleep casting roll replacing the stealth roll. The target isn't really as vulnerable as you are making out, their just compelled to wake up before taking non-mental actions.
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What game mechanic are you using to model throat slitting? I was assuming it's like an ambush, with the sleep casting roll replacing the stealth roll. The target isn't really as vulnerable as you are making out, their just compelled to wake up before taking non-mental actions.
I think the disconnect may be the result of the narrative and metagame nature of conflict resolution in the DFRPG game. Taking and giving Compels and Consequences adds a metagame element, but for players used to the more simulationist/tactical RPGs, rendering a foe helpless and then dispatching it is generally a viable option. As a result, it's hard to see "Sleeping Foe" and not figure that a followup attack would be an autokill.
That said, the DFRPG's use of consequences and such allows certain narrative advantages over purely hit-point-based RPGs. Knocking someone out in certain game systems, for instance, can be a logistical nightmare requiring large amounts of non-lethal damage and a failed saving throw, so many GMs can't really use it as a story option.
Perhaps the conversation needs to return to the context of deducing from effect.
When a Player uses a Sleeping Spell or a Tranq Dart, they want to Take Out the opposition. Whether they want to kill or simply arrest the opposition is an important choice, but one they get to make. It's their game.
When an NPC uses a Sleeping Spell or a Tranq Dart on a PC or another NPC, it's the GM attempting to create an entertaining story, having decided that kidnapping or simply tying up a PC would be a good source of tenion, or at least a way to funnel them some Fate Points.
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I think that unless you simply say "Ok, you cut his throat and he dies <handwaved GM magic>" (which is perfectly acceptable if that's the way you want your game to go), then the closest you can get to a throat-slit is basically the same thing you'd do for snipers. That is, rely on a series of maneuvers followed by a killing strike. Note, by the way, that this would work reasonably well under normal circumstances, but not as well in the example we've been talking about, since the magically-induced sleep wouldn't last terribly long, and there'd be a limit to how many maneuvers you'd have time for.
As to the question of whether sleep is overpowered ... is there really that much difference between a magically-sleeping target and a magically-grappled target? Both are basically helpless until they break free of the spell's effects.
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You could see the throat slit death as a compell of the "sleeping target" aspect, which the target could "buy out" if they had fate points to spare.
This handily makes it work easily on mooks, but the story important NPCs are likely to wake up/fight off the effects at just the right time to prevent the kill, as they will have the fate points available.
It also would reward the players by draining the NPC of fate
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You could see the throat slit death as a compell of the "sleeping target" aspect, which the target could "buy out" if they had fate points to spare.
This handily makes it work easily on mooks, but the story important NPCs are likely to wake up/fight off the effects at just the right time to prevent the kill, as they will have the fate points available.
It also would reward the players by draining the NPC of fate
Any game the players do that in should also be a game where that is done to the players.
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Any game the players do that in should also be a game where that is done to the players.
I know! Golden Rule and all that.
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OK, then the players will stay in their home, trying to cast a big-ass ritual to make someone else immortal. Does it mean they get to have someone else cast the same to them?
In short that kind of rule is a) not fair, b) not plausible causality-wise and c) plain not fun.
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Alas, "you reap what you sow" tends to work more quickly for malevolence than it does for benevolence.
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What game mechanic are you using to model throat slitting? I was assuming it's like an ambush, with the sleep casting roll replacing the stealth roll. The target isn't really as vulnerable as you are making out, their just compelled to wake up before taking non-mental actions.
There doesn't have to be a game mechanic for slitting throats if the target is A) helpless, and B)jason no special power or toughness to prevent death. You just do it.
I mean, seriously, the Target is helpless, what do you need a game mechanism for that for?
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I think that unless you simply say "Ok, you cut his throat and he dies <handwaved GM magic>" (which is perfectly acceptable if that's the way you want your game to go), then the closest you can get to a throat-slit is basically the same thing you'd do for snipers. That is, rely on a series of maneuvers followed by a killing strike. Note, by the way, that this would work reasonably well under normal circumstances, but not as well in the example we've been talking about, since the magically-induced sleep wouldn't last terribly long, and there'd be a limit to how many maneuvers you'd have time for.
I'm not sure if you understood me or not. When talking about slitting one's throat, I said in te context of after putting one to sleep. If someone is quite literally asleep, they are effectively helpless in every way. Thus, no maneuvers are needs.
At some point, te rule of logic has to take precedence.
As to the question of whether sleep is overpowered ... is there really that much difference between a magically-sleeping target and a magically-grappled target? Both are basically helpless until they break free of the spell's effects.
Kinda what I thought, making it either a grapple or a taking it effect, depending. I'll have to reread the grapple rules.
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I'm not sure if you understood me or not. When talking about slitting one's throat, I said in te context of after putting one to sleep. If someone is quite literally asleep, they are effectively helpless in every way. Thus, no maneuvers are needs.
At some point, te rule of logic has to take precedence.
Kinda what I thought, making it either a grapple or a taking it effect, depending. I'll have to reread the grapple rules.
I understand what you're saying here, and I've played a D&D rogue who loved the coup de grace, but I am pretty sure this game lacks a rule like that on purpose. It's a very cinematic and character driven game. I looked again in the books, and the closest I can find to a coup de grace is the ambush trapping of stealth, which I think is good enough for the purpose of: he couldn't defend against this one attack because he was sleeping, and now he's awake, bleeding and angry.
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Also. The idea that a sleeping person is "helpless" is bunk. The magic isn't putting them in a coma, or stasis (that would be taken out), its just putting them to sleep. From which they can roll to wake up from any stimulus that might awaken a normal person.
I wake up from people just moving around in the same room as me (not to mention the standing over me that would be required to slit my throat). I can only logically infer that monsters and hardened criminals are, if anything, lighter sleepers than I am (as their lives are dangerous). So even if the sleep spell works. Even if the room is quiet and has no other stimuli to awaken the target, he would still get a roll to wake up and defend himself if you tried to kill him.
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Why would a sleeping creature get a defense roll of any kind, mediocre or otherwise. Is there some way a sleeping creature can avoid their throat being slit?
Seriously. Putting someone in a situation where they are completely defenseless isn't simply an aspect. No way, no how. It's not even a lower consequence.
To me, you are either "blocking" or "taking the character out."
I just don't see how you could justify it any other way considering how vulnerable the target is.
Because the mechanics don't model biology, they model story. You've rolled a maneuver to say "This is a story where my PC puts this dude to sleep." Awesome, that doesn't mean this is the story where you walk up and slit their throat. You used a maneuver? Cool. That's an aspect for a +2 tag for you when he tries to wake up and stab you in the face as you sneak up on him. He rolls alertness. Assuming he's a protagonist or a named NPC, if he succeeds, guess he didn't sleep very soundly. Guess this may be the story where he shook off the effects of the powder long enough to stab you in the face. Even if he fails the roll, he's still able to narrate coming to enough to prevent a throat slitting and just take stress. A maneuver can put him to sleep and give him an aspect, but it can't keep him asleep. Maybe you shoulda used it as a grapple.
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Because the mechanics don't model biology, they model story. You've rolled a maneuver to say "This is a story where my PC puts this dude to sleep." Awesome, that doesn't mean this is the story where you walk up and slit their throat. You used a maneuver? Cool. That's an aspect for a +2 tag for you when he tries to wake up and stab you in the face as you sneak up on him. He rolls alertness. Assuming he's a protagonist or a named NPC, if he succeeds, guess he didn't sleep very soundly. Guess this may be the story where he shook off the effects of the powder long enough to stab you in the face. Even if he fails the roll, he's still able to narrate coming to enough to prevent a throat slitting and just take stress. A maneuver can put him to sleep and give him an aspect, but it can't keep him asleep. Maybe you shoulda used it as a grapple.
This is a good way of looking at it.
Maybe this is another way to look at the question: In order for you to have total control over life and death for a target, the mechanics require you to take them out. If you want your sleep spell to allow you this level of control, then your sleep spell must take out your target. Once you've done this, you narrate the results of the takeout, which could certainly be "He falls into a deep sleep, whereupon I walk over and cut his throat. Fini." But if you model sleep as a mere aspect or consequence, then you only have an aspect worth of control over the target. So Noclue's description would be the level of control you have over them. And keep in mind that if the subject has a Fate point, he can deny you even that level of control.
A grapple would be the best way to model what you are trying to accomplish, though make sure it's strong enough to ensure he doesn't break free before you can get that take-out result.
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A good question could be can you compel someone to be taken out?
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A good question could be can you compel someone to be taken out?
I think you can, but it depends on the circumstances, and a player might be within their rights to ask for TWO Scooby Snacks.
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A good question could be can you compel someone to be taken out?
Sounds like you're compelling them to take a Concession. I'm cool with that, but you still won't get a throat slitting unless they agree to the compel.
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Sounds like you're compelling them to take a Concession. I'm cool with that, but you still won't get a throat slitting unless they agree to the compel.
Not even then, since a concession would allow the conceeding player to narrate (within reason).
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Also. The idea that a sleeping person is "helpless" is bunk. The magic isn't putting them in a coma, or stasis (that would be taken out), its just putting them to sleep. From which they can roll to wake up from any stimulus that might awaken a normal person.
I wake up from people just moving around in the same room as me (not to mention the standing over me that would be required to slit my throat). I can only logically infer that monsters and hardened criminals are, if anything, lighter sleepers than I am (as their lives are dangerous). So even if the sleep spell works. Even if the room is quiet and has no other stimuli to awaken the target, he would still get a roll to wake up and defend himself if you tried to kill him.
Bunk?
Are you telling me that, every single time someone walks in you wake up, without fail?
People have different levels of sleep they reach overnight, including light and deep levels, REM, etc. Even a light sleeper reaches the deeper levels sometime. And unless you seriously and honestly can say It's also impossible to sneak up on you, when awake, I would find it a bit incredulous to believe that you wake up every single time someone is over you.
Yes, being asleep does not mean helpless, but it does mean almost helpless. You are unconscious, prone, unready for a response, and even when someone wakes up they have to take a moment to gauge their surroundings and situation.
Is it possible? Sure. It's highly improbable though. People have been killed in their sleep throughout time, so I'm not sure why you find my assertion so unlikely.
Even in movies and stories, we see or read scenes where the hero sneak up behind a fully awake guard and snaps his neck, strangleholds him to unconsciousness, or whatever, and those are targets that were awake but unaware.
And yet the entire idea of a sleeping man's throat being slit is somehow preposterous to you?
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Using a compel to force a concession? Not bloody likely methinks. That would make it far too easy to defeat named villains with negative refresh.
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Using a compel to force a concession? Not bloody likely methinks. That would make it far too easy to defeat named villains with negative refresh.
Theoretically, if the heroes have been in conflict with said villain for several exchanges, the villain would be able to buy out of a serious compel with one of the small pool of Fate Points built up from the players' previous compels and aspect tags.
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And yet the entire idea of a sleeping man's throat being slit is somehow preposterous to you?
The idea isn't preposterous. But this conflict is predicated upon the narrative ruleset of this game system, where maneuvers and Aspects are there to establish plot potential, not merely a simulation of reality. The resolution mechanism of this game system relies on clear understandings of what is at stake in each conflict.
PCs and NPCs ideally enter into each conflict with a goal: NPCs going for "tranq and kidnap the PCs" have to resolve that in a conflict with the PCs players who decide their goal is "don't get tranqed and kidnapped." Even if the PCs players lose, that adds another plot element to the game: now they have to find out who kidnapped them, why, and how to escape. Heck, some players can simply be encouraged to Concede to capture because it may get them closer to their enemy and an opportunity to really foul his machinations.
If the NPCs are instead an assassin squad intending to "subdue and murder the PCs" then the stakes are obviously higher and the PCs players are going to do whatever is in their power to avoid that fate. And getting killed in one's sleep is a fairly non-heroic way to go with you game. So the PCs players are going to want chances to "shake it off" rather than get autokilled, and if they are out of FP, the rules give them the opportunity to Concede to a lesser effect, like Left For Dead.
The game can be brutal and fatal if played the right way, but the rules are designed to keep the story going, not to ignominiously snuff the PCs because they opened the wrong door. We're creating a story, not a dungeon crawl. And if the PCs players agree that the best thing for the story IS that their character snuff it, then they don't take the Concession. Problem solved.
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Theoretically, if the heroes have been in conflict with said villain for several exchanges, the villain would be able to buy out of a serious compel with one of the small pool of Fate Points built up from the players' previous compels and aspect tags.
I agree - any named villan important enough to the plot should definatly have some fate when they get to the point they're actually interacting with the PCs (by GM fiat if not actually as a result of compells).
Just because they have negative refresh shouldn't necessarily mean they have no fate.
...and conversly anyone not important enough to the plot to have fate should be able to be taken out with a compel (by the GM or otherwise) of an aspect such as "Asleep" when a PC gets to a point of being able to do something like a coup-de-gras.
It need not require a fate from the player - as a GM I would probably just give the result to them, but the underlying mechanic would be a compell of the aspect.
Storywise as a GM I would be wary about doing the reverse to the PCs - When the ninja squat comes for them, I would feel obliged to go after the person with fate first, so they could at least buy off the compell, or more likely give them an alertness against the Ninja's stealth with an invoke against their "asleep" aspect as they maneuver for "in position to give a coup-de-gras" - handily giving them a fate to buy off the compell of that aspect! - They are important to the ploy after all, and the drama is from them escaping the near death experience not succumbing to it
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The idea isn't preposterous. But this conflict is predicated upon the narrative ruleset of this game system, where maneuvers and Aspects are there to establish plot potential, not merely a simulation of reality.
Yup, PCs and significant NPCs just do not buy it in there sleep. So, no throat slitting unless you take them out. Protagonists that are not taken out are not helpless. Put the aspect encased in concrete on them and its still just a +2 tag.
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honestly at some point reality does take hold, encased in concrete may only grant a plus 2 but your still encased in concrete and thus bum screwed. also there is a reason every dnd group under the sun maintains a watch cycle, because after waking up with a kobold standing over your chest about to kill you whilst you slept the gm aint guna pull a punch the next time the party sleeps out side a kobolds cave with no guard.
one of the reasons nonleathal dmg and drow poison is so scary for players isnt that they will be taken out of the fight its what can happen while helpless.
mechanicly sure you can throw em a fate point and givem a chance but one of the reasons death while asleep is popular is because it works, also if the players start going around killing people while they sleep well they just opened the door; its like assassinations and nukes we dont usem because we dont want others using them.
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I still don't buy it. To me, if you put them to sleep or encase them in concrete, in MY games, it had better be a block or taking them out. Such status events are too severe to merely grant a +2 modifier in my book, and taking someone out with a maneuver whrn, you know, they have his thing called Taking Out, feels like an attempt to game the system.
Now, if you wanted.them to just be Sleepy, sure, I could accept that with a maneuver - but not flat-out asleep. That's what blocks and taking outs are for.
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Well, my point is if it's just an aspect than it isn't a severe status event. There's a way out. You're have an aspect like "Asleep!" but you're not taken out, then it's your move and you get to act. You're in concrete? But not taken out and not blocked, then there's a way to narrate out of the concrete. So, you have to do something, but you're just an action away from freedom. Use athletics and bust out, cuz the concrete isn't dry enough to hold you. Tag a spell for effect and shatter the concrete. Whatever.
Now, hypotheticals are only so useful. I'm not saying I think these are good uses of Aspects. "Encased in Concrete!" is not a very good aspect because it implies the character is trapped. So, that's better modeled as a block.
This is all by way of saying that a sleeping powder that puts an aspect on the PC is not immobilizing them or making them helpless. If you want someone helpless you have to take them out.
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I still don't buy it. To me, if you put them to sleep or encase them in concrete, in MY games, it had better be a block or taking them out.
So the ways to model a tranq dart (or other sleep-inducing effect) would involve one or more of the following:
Round 1: Block versus doing anything
Subsequent rounds: maneuvers to plant "Sleepy" aspects
Take-down: physical stress to take out the target, tagging previous "Sleepy" aspects
In the case of Tranq darts fired by gun-wielding mortal agents, and not sleep spells, would we assume the NPC can perform all three of these actions, or would we create a Stunt to reflect this particular tactical use of their Guns skill?
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honestly at some point reality does take hold, encased in concrete may only grant a plus 2 but your still encased in concrete and thus bum screwed. also there is a reason every dnd group under the sun maintains a watch cycle, because after waking up with a kobold standing over your chest about to kill you whilst you slept the gm aint guna pull a punch the next time the party sleeps out side a kobolds cave with no guard.
one of the reasons nonleathal dmg and drow poison is so scary for players isnt that they will be taken out of the fight its what can happen while helpless.
mechanicly sure you can throw em a fate point and givem a chance but one of the reasons death while asleep is popular is because it works, also if the players start going around killing people while they sleep well they just opened the door; its like assassinations and nukes we dont usem because we dont want others using them.
D&D is a very different game than Dresden Files. In D&D, half the fun is the survivalist aspect. DFRPG, on the other hand, is much more of a narrative game. There will be things that are more important in D&D, and things that are more important in DFRPG. D&D often runs on the "rule of reason", whereas DFRPG runs on the "rule of cool".
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honestly at some point reality does take hold, encased in concrete may only grant a plus 2 but your still encased in concrete and thus bum screwed.
Actually, let's look at that a sec.
One of the nice things about FATE is you can play with Aspects in ways you never could in DnD. So, I put an aspect on your wizard "Encased in Concrete!" That means you're in concrete, but it's only a +2 to my attack. As players, we know you're still able to fight, but our characters are not so smart. So, it becomes possible to narrate casting earth magic to attack me with a wave of concussive force and when I tag the aspect for the +2 to my Athletics your concrete (which was a fragile aspect) is exploded outward from the spell and the aspect is gone. If the aspect was not fragile and sticks around, you just morph it into "buried in rubble" or "blinded by concrete dust" or something.
So the mechanics were:
- I placed an aspect on you with a maneuver
- You attacked me.
- I tagged the aspect for a +2.
But, the fiction was:
- I encased you in concrete
- You sent out a wave of concussive force to knock me on my ass
- And exploded the concrete in the process.
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So the ways to model a tranq dart (or other sleep-inducing effect) would involve one or more of the following:
Round 1: Block versus doing anything
Subsequent rounds: maneuvers to plant "Sleepy" aspects
Take-down: physical stress to take out the target, tagging previous "Sleepy" aspects
In the case of Tranq darts fired by gun-wielding mortal agents, and not sleep spells, would we assume the NPC can perform all three of these actions, or would we create a Stunt to reflect this particular tactical use of their Guns skill?
How I'd model a tranq gun is a weapon that acts like a block vs anything, essentially until they wake up, or a weapon that does enough damage to completely take out anyone of a certain amount of stress track, so that the toughest migration struggle to stay awake.
I prefer the take out effect. Why? Once hit, and affected, a target would geneeally be out for minutes at least, and more likely hours. That's a lot closer to being taken out than anything.
Hm; weapon 5, only normal living creatures. Or....
Well, the problem is DFRPG has rules for continuous damage for precisely two.sources: the venomous add-on for claws, and environmental sources. Nothing else causes ongoing damage.
This, to me, is a flaw. So, I've purchased Strands of Fate, and I plan to port over some of their rules, including continuous damage and persistent aspects.
Then a tranq dart could do continuous damage... for a limited number of rounds. Or, there.are.other possibilities, but I'll wait until I'm done reading the book.
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Well, the problem is DFRPG has rules for continuous damage for precisely two.sources: the venomous add-on for claws, and environmental sources. Nothing else causes ongoing damage.
If folks are quick to equate Taken Out [sleeping] with Taken out [dead], then perhaps we make a version of Venomous which does the same thing, but won't kill? It could remain a -2 Refresh power (well, as written, it is tied to Claws)
Or we could (just to figure game balance) build an Item of Power which provides a Venomous Breath Weapon [-3 or -4], call it a Tranq Rifle, and then factor it into the Refresh rating of each agent/merc/etc. using the weapon.
Tranq Rifle
It Is What It Is: Ranged Weapon:1.
Imparted Abilities: Venomous Breath Weapon which causes fatigue and unconsciousness, not death [-4].
One-Time Discount: +2.
Unbreakable: not necessary for this item. Should it get another discount of +1?
Item Refresh Cost: -1 to -2, depending on GM preference.
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I still don't buy it. To me, if you put them to sleep or encase them in concrete, in MY games, it had better be a block or taking them out. Such status events are too severe to merely grant a +2 modifier in my book, and taking someone out with a maneuver whrn, you know, they have his thing called Taking Out, feels like an attempt to game the system.
Now, if you wanted.them to just be Sleepy, sure, I could accept that with a maneuver - but not flat-out asleep. That's what blocks and taking outs are for.
First of all, compelling doesn't just give a +2 to a roll. You can compel for narrative effect and basically declare the targets actions.
Second "asleep" is not full on being taken out. Anyone else can try to shake you awake (taking an action to remove the aspect) and any action that would cause noise, or any action taken directly upon you would entitle you to an alertness roll to remove the aspect and act normally... If you did not have the chance to wake up it would be a taken out result (and a coma spell not a sleep spell).
Third. As far as the "Gaming the system" statement. Thats just wrong. Look up the example mindfog spell in Your Story. It does the exact same thing we're talking about, except instead of sleeping, the target just wanders around confused, but still just as helpless (actually moreso since they wheren't able to shrug off the effects, even when there was a gun fight going on right next to them).
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Again, I think what this comes down to is can you compel someone to be taken out. It wouldn't be compelling to a concession because there's a little bit of negotiation there, a little give and take. We're talking "I compel you to die." Is that something you want in your game? I'm not sure personally one way or the other. Maybe it would depend on the circumstances.
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Again, I think what this comes down to is can you compel someone to be taken out. It wouldn't be compelling to a concession because there's a little bit of negotiation there, a little give and take. We're talking "I compel you to die." Is that something you want in your game? I'm not sure personally one way or the other. Maybe it would depend on the circumstances.
But its not compelling someone to die. Its not even really compelling someone to be taken out.
All a sleep aspect would do is compel someone to give up actions until they succeed in an alertness roll to remove the aspect. You cannot just summarily kill a sleeping target. First he gets a roll to break the sleep, then even if he fails he still gets a defense roll (life is not so simple that we can ever hope things will go as planned, nor casually get things done in stressful situations), though at an effective -2 from the aspect (if the player spends another fate point to compel it again). Then even if hit, the target takes stress and consequences normally (and in any rational game immediately wakes up).
The Mind Fog spell would have similar effects for different reasons. No. you can't consciously defend yourself. But you're also not lying in one place, you're wandering around confused... Thats not really helpless, its unpredictable. So, you'd still get dodges and defense rolls as a result of just moving around, but you'd have to make some kind of roll to take a directed action.