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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Valarian on May 13, 2010, 12:18:36 PM

Title: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Valarian on May 13, 2010, 12:18:36 PM
I was wondering about a character like Capt. Jack Harkness (Dr Who / Torchwood) or Capt. Scarlet (Gerry Anderson). Those character types that just can not die, but take all the damage anyway. Is this Mythic Recovery (they take the damage, but eventually recover), or Physical Immunity (they're hit with a weapon but it has no real effect)?

The type of character I'm looking to introduce is a long-lived / immortal person who can be harmed but not killed. They take damage as normal, but eventually recover from it. If taken out, they're incapacitated but not killed. Eventually, given enough time, they will recover. Other than this ability, they're a normal person (no other supernatural powers, just skills and mortal stunts). To me, this sounds like Mythic Recovery - but what's the Catch? Is the fact that they take damage Catch enough, seeing as they recover from the damage eventually. I'd see it as a +0 Catch at best as there's no way around it - they always recover. To me, that isn't sounding like a Catch at all.

What do you think, should this character have a specific, hard to discover, secret weakness (a proper +0 Catch)?
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 13, 2010, 12:35:49 PM
Supernatural or even only Inhuman Recovery with absolutely no Catch (or a +0 one at the worst), is how I'd do it. Ghouls specifically mention in their Catch that normal severe damage can kill them...which implies that without such a Catch it can't at their level of Recovery (which is Supernatural).

There's a specific sidbar about allowing Recovery with no Catch...and how it's a viable option. Still, some way to kill them (even if nobody knows it...not even themself) does add options to the game as opposed to removing them.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Valarian on May 13, 2010, 12:46:06 PM
I'd missed that, it's in the Harry/Billy commentary in the margin. The Mythic Recovery thinking was along the lines of the expected life-span and that he always recovers. Now you've mentioned it, inhuman and supernatural still allow a total recovery but it just takes longer. That then, would be the difference ... the speed at which the character would recover.

I just want the opportunity to use the line: I died, then I got better.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: surarrin on May 13, 2010, 01:03:20 PM
Physical Immunity: Death

The (Stacked) Catch:
+2 it protects against something specific
+2 There are a lot of things which aren't death
+0/1/2 Might be researchable.

if you got taken out of a fight, you'd be taken out, even if they killed you, and then afterwards you'd be up and at it.. again!
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Saedar on May 13, 2010, 06:59:45 PM
Physical Immunity: Death

The (Stacked) Catch:
+2 it protects against something specific
+2 There are a lot of things which aren't death
+0/1/2 Might be researchable.

if you got taken out of a fight, you'd be taken out, even if they killed you, and then afterwards you'd be up and at it.. again!

I like this approach.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: surarrin on May 14, 2010, 09:24:02 AM
Also.

-8 Physical Immunity: Death

The (Stacked) Catch:
+2 it protects against something specific
+2 There are a lot of things which aren't death
+0/1/2 Might be researchable.

-4

-6 Mythic Recovery
The Catch: Only Works in Death
+2 Specific
+2 Lots of stuff that isn't death.
+0/1/2 Researchable.

-2

-6 Total for a character who cannot be killed.

Thus character is taken out [momentarily dies] Mythic Recovery kicks in and returns their body to normal. Physical Immunity Death Kicks in and the character is alive again.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 14, 2010, 09:25:09 AM
You in no way need both of those, either is sufficient on it's own.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: surarrin on May 14, 2010, 09:50:43 AM
Being Immune to Death doesn't mean your character's organs will magically reappear in his chest.

Bam.

You die in a conflict by taking a bullet through the face.

Conflict ends.

You revive.. with a hole in your face.  :-\

Alternatively.

You die by being exploded.

Your body pulls itself together, but you're still dead, because you still died.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 14, 2010, 09:53:21 AM
True! And you should likely get, say, Inhuman Recovery (with a +0 Catch of some sort) on top of the Physical Immunity to death to solve that problem, but Mythic Recovery vs. Death only seems highly redundant.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: surarrin on May 14, 2010, 10:00:20 AM
I don't think Inhuman would save you from being exploded. o.o Seems a bit above it's paygrade.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 14, 2010, 10:12:55 AM
OPh no, you'd still be exploded, but with Death Immunity you'd gradually heal. It does say that any consequence will heal given only time and nothing else.  :)
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: surarrin on May 14, 2010, 10:26:38 AM
I was going by Jack's powers as a base. >_>

Quote
    * Shot by a Dalek (DW: The Parting of the Ways)
    * Shot in the heart (DW: Utopia)
    * Stabbed by a broken bottle (TW: Fragments)
    * Shot by Alice Guppy (TW: Fragments)
    * Fell off of a cliff (DW: Utopia)
    * Trampled by Horses (DW: Utopia)

Jack fought in World War I and World War II

    * Shot through head (IDW: The Forgotten)
    * Poisoned (DW: Utopia)
    * Strangled (DW: Utopia)
    * Hit by a stray javelin (DW: Utopia)
    * Shot by Suzie Costello (TW: Everything Changes)
    * Electrocuted by Lisa Hallett (TW: Cyberwoman)
    * Shot by Owen Harper (TW: End of Days)
    * "Devoured" by Abaddon (TW: End of Days)
    * Torn through the Time Vortex (DW: Utopia)
    * Electrocuted by power-wire (DW: Utopia)
    * Shot by the Master (DW: The Sound of Drums)

During The Year That Never Was, the Master frequently killed Jack for fun

    * Shot by Toclafane (DW: Last of the Time Lords)
    * Pushed off a building by John Hart (TW: Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang)
    * Killed by the Grim Reaper (TW: Dead Man Walking)
    * Stabbed in falling building (TW: Fragments)

By this time, Jack has died at least 1392 times

    * Shot, multiple times, by John Hart (TW: Exit Wounds)
    * Stabbed by Gray (TW: Exit Wounds)
    * Buried underneath dirt for nearly two thousand years (TW: Exit Wounds)
    * Shot by a Dalek (DW: Journey's End)
    * Shot by Rupesh Patanjali (TW: Children of Earth: Day One)
    * Shot by Johnson (TW: Children of Earth: Day One)
    * Blown up from the inside out (TW: Children of Earth: Day One, Children of Earth: Day Two)
    * Buried in cement (TW: Children of Earth: Day Two)
    * Shot by Clement MacDonald (TW: Children of Earth: Day Four)
    * Succumbed to the 456's virus (TW: Children of Earth: Day Four)

All the times he's 'died' and survived, after which he's up and at them pretty much straight away.

As far as I'm aware the only time he's taken longer than a few minutes to revive was when he met Abadon who's shadow consumed life (It took him 2 days or so iirc. xD)
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 14, 2010, 10:32:32 AM
Oh, if you're specifically duplicating Jack himself, yeah, that might be necessary. I was under the impression you were just doing someone a bit similar.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: surarrin on May 14, 2010, 10:35:27 AM
yeah, was targeting Jack specifically...

But that does make me wonder

How awesome would it be to play an Immortal Wiseass who complains EVERYTIME he dies and has to reattach his arms or legs? xD

Halloween time! Dons some armor, cuts off his own head and wins best costume ever. XD
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jeckel on June 07, 2010, 04:44:59 AM
Ok, been looking at this as it is one of the two kinds of characters I needed the most for an upcoming RP (Immortal being the other one). Here is what I've put together for the 'Musts' section of the Template.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Physical Immunity [-8] (page YS:186): Death can not touch you. Drowning, starvation, gun-shots, stabbing, bombs, fire, etc, the cause doesn't matter, you do not die and - if your brain is in a shape to process input - you feel every bit of it. No resistance to damage is gained, but regardless of what wounds are inflicted upon you, death will not come... no matter how much you may wish it would.

The Stacked Catch [+6] (page YS:187): This catch allows everything except for the specific act of death to bypass the Physical Immunity power. When one of the Undying is Taken Out, death will not result from any action taken as part of the victory conditions. Similarly, nothing - except perhaps plot device level effects - can cause the character to be made temporarily or permanently dead. Discovering the conditions of this catch would not be difficult, though some might wrongly assume that death can be caused by some specific means.

Must also take one of: <i>Inhuman Recovery [–2]</i> (page YS:185), <i>Supernatural Recovery [-4]</i> (page YS:186), or <i>Mythic Recovery [-6]</i> (page YS:186).

--------------------------------------------------------------

From what I read in this thread the numbers are good, but I'm hoping I worded everything correctly in the catch to justify the +6 refund.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: GoldenH on June 07, 2010, 05:37:24 AM
Just posting that Captain Jack has now officially appeared in my campaign (Well, John Barrowman has, no Who crossover just yet)
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: paul_Harkonen on June 07, 2010, 06:51:00 AM
if you wanted to you could also create your own "Deathproof (TM, not my property)" power as well.  You could base it off a combination of the physical immunity and recovery powers, but construct it such that it only triggers on death.  This would allow you to better emulate Jack's near instantaneous recoveries from most normal deaths without paying huge amounts of refresh for superhuman or better recovery in addition to the physical immunity.

I think something like -4 or -5 for a power that allows you to recover consequences rapidly when taken out and killed (but only in those circumstances) would work pretty well.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Wordmaker on June 07, 2010, 11:19:12 AM
I'd be very wary of suggesting that the recovery powers grant a character the ability to return from death. Plenty of powerful characters have Inhuman Recovery or higher, and the only instance we've seen anything close to someone coming back from the dead was in White Night, when
(click to show/hide)
though he could just be tough enough to have survived...

None of the Recovery powers allow a character to recover from an extreme consequence any better than a regular mortal, and it is mentioned that death could be viewed as an extreme consequence.

I'd imagine the reason that it states that ghouls can be taken down by extreme physical trauma is provide an example of the kind of mundane damage that might not be healed by their powers. It's also possible the writers were trying to make a clear distinction between ghouls and uber-ghouls, which are pretty much unkillable.

To make a PC that couldn't die, I'd consider making a unique power that was an alteration to the Living Dead power, like this:

Unkillable [-3]
Unless utterly destroyed or killed by special means, you will eventually recover from any fatal wound. No "death" result is ever permanent unless special means are used (as determined by your creature type).

Granted, this just makes you immune to death. You would still have to buy other recovery powers or wait to recover from injuries at the same rate as a mortal.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jeckel on June 10, 2010, 08:30:50 AM
I'd be very wary of suggesting that the recovery powers grant a character the ability to return from death...

I could not agree more. At best and with a very generous GM death is an extreme concequence and recovery powers healing death would be a bad president to set.

To make a PC that couldn't die, I'd consider making a unique power that was an alteration to the Living Dead power, like this:

Unkillable [-3]
Unless utterly destroyed or killed by special means, you will eventually recover from any fatal wound. No "death" result is ever permanent unless special means are used (as determined by your creature type).

Granted, this just makes you immune to death. You would still have to buy other recovery powers or wait to recover from injuries at the same rate as a mortal.

Hmm, that's not a bad idea. Let me work on it and I'll post something here in a few days. :)
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 10, 2010, 10:23:26 AM
Um...how is that different from Physical Immunity: Death Only? They cost just about the same and the Physical Immunity solution has already been discussed here extensively.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Wordmaker on June 10, 2010, 01:01:34 PM
Well strictly speaking, taking Physical Immunity only prevents you from taking physical Stress and Consequences. Since "Death" isn't a form of attack, but the possible result of an attack, I would interpret this as meaning that you wouldn't take Stress from an attack that was going to kill you.

So either you're changing what the power actually does in order to allow you to take Stress and Consequences, or else any attack that would kill you simply does no Stress at all. Since it's up to the player whether to take Consequences in order to avoid being Taken Out, such a character could go through a whole fight aganst a largely superior opponent suffering absolutely no ill-effects.

Now, I'm guessing that what's intended is that with a base power, the character can still suffer Stress and be Taken Out, but just not die. So that means changing what Physical Immunity does.

With that in mind, why not simply amend an existing power that literally does exactly what seems to be the desired effect, costs less, and involves less juggling of refresh modifiers?
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jeckel on June 11, 2010, 03:22:46 AM
Um...how is that different from Physical Immunity: Death Only? They cost just about the same and the Physical Immunity solution has already been discussed here extensively.

I'm not sold on a custom power, but I do have some ideas. I will say that the new power can't just have the "doesn't ever die no matter what" effect. If it does get included, then the power will be used to clearly layout other effects of being an Undying in addition to the not dieing part.

Well strictly speaking, taking Physical Immunity only prevents you from taking physical Stress and Consequences. Since "Death" isn't a form of attack, but the possible result of an attack, I would interpret this as meaning that you wouldn't take Stress from an attack that was going to kill you.

Hmm, I've sat here thinking about what you said and re-reading the Physical Immunity text several times. The line in question is, "You take no stress and no consequences from physical attacks and other harms, unless someone satisfies your Catch."

I'm thinking that since death isn't a form of attack it isn't dealing the stress. When the attack is made and stress is dealt, the result of death hasn't happened yet so the attack satisfies the catch and stress is applied normally. If that applied stress leads to the Undying being Taken Out, then the Immunity kicks in and Death is not allowed as part of the victory conditions.

With that in mind, why not simply amend an existing power that literally does exactly what seems to be the desired effect, costs less, and involves less juggling of refresh modifiers?

I'm not against amending small pieces of canon powers, as that is what I did to remove the sleep thing from the Immortal Template's Recovery powers. However, I don't know half the powers, so if you could suggest another power that could be easily amended, suggestions are always awesome.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: KOFFEYKID on June 11, 2010, 10:30:33 PM
i've been intrigued with an idea like this for a while, because I loved the Lucas Villalobos character from the Dante Valentine series. Here is a quote talking about Lucas Villalobos

Quote from: Dante Valentine Book 4, Saint City Sinners
Besides, Lucas's reputation would suffer if one of his clients got hashed at the breakfast table with him. I was pretty sure he cared about his reputation, if nothing else. There was a story that he'd once taken on a whole corporation's security division when a stray shot had accidentally killed his target before he could get to it.

The rumor further was, he'd won-after being knifed, shot, blown up, knifed again, shot five more times, and blown up the last time with a full half-ounce of C 19. No, you didn't mess with Lucas Villalobos or his reputation.

Here is what Ive got so far for a character.

Jim Danvers
High Concept:
Undying Warrior
Trouble: Death Has Plans For Me
Other Aspects: Strait Into the Fray; War Veteran; I Hunt Monsters; Terrifying Reputation; Collector of Favors
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/Ramaloke/Mercenarymaincharater.jpg)
COST   POWERS
+0      Undying
 -1      Wall of Muscle
 -1      Just a Flesh Wound
 -1      No Pain, No Gain
+0      The Catch (Nobody Knows)
 -6       Mythic Recovery

SKILLS
5   Endurance
4   Guns, Weapons, Alertness
3   Fists, Lore, Presence
2   Intimidate, Athletics, Might
1   Contacts, Deceit, Conviction

Stress: P OOOO M OOO S OOOO (+2 Mild Physical Consequences)

Armor: Bulletproof Vest (Armor: 2)

Equipment: Serbu Super Shorty Shotgun (Weapon: 3), Throwing Knives (Weapon: 2), Short Sword (Weapon: 2), Grenades (Weapon: 4)

Wall of Muscle: You are accustomed to just taking hits, and continuing to move on. You may use the endurance skill in place of athletics when rolling for defense.

Just a Flesh Wound: You have experienced wounds so grievous as to make most men sick to their stomach. When somebody invokes your physical consequences, anything less than an extreme consequence only provides a +1 benefit.

Undying [-0]
Deathless. Unless utterly destroyed or killed by special means, you will eventually recover from any fatal wound. No "death" result is ever permanent unless special means are used (as determined by your creature type).
Estranged. Most people around you feel uncomfortable, as if they can tell that you are different from others. Take a -1 Penalty on all Rapport and Deceit based maneuvers or attacks you make.


This guy is a total nightmare in combat, he can take a total of 6 Mild consequences (he can recover 3 via Mythic Recovery), a moderate and a severe, and be fresh as a daisy in the next scene.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Belial666 on June 11, 2010, 11:02:10 PM
Living Dead: -1
Mythic Recovery: -6
Human Form: -1

The above combination means you can be taken out/killed/whatever. In the next scene, you're fully healed. Human Form is equivalent to flesh mask; you appear human and don't get penalties from Living Dead. (I simply didn't want to flavor it as flesh mask)
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: KOFFEYKID on June 11, 2010, 11:04:30 PM
true but Living Dead probably precludes having a recovery ability. Also, note that the Undying power I put up gives a penalty to everything but intimidate which doesn't get any bonus. In Living dead, Intimidate gets a bonus, thus the lower than Living Dead refresh cost of 0.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Belial666 on June 11, 2010, 11:12:10 PM
Your ability only gives penalties to:
Quote
Rapport and Deceit based maneuvers or attacks

It doesn't give penalties to defenses or blocks with those skills and it doesn't give penalties to Presence, Performance, Empathy and the social uses of Contacts and Resources. So it is only 1/5th as big a penalty as the Living Dead equivalent.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: KOFFEYKID on June 11, 2010, 11:16:51 PM
True, I guess I can widen it to include all of the things you mentioned. How about:

Undying [-0]
Deathless. Unless utterly destroyed or killed by special means, you will eventually recover from any fatal wound. No "death" result is ever permanent unless special means are used (as determined by your creature type).
Estranged. Most people around you feel uncomfortable, as if they can tell that you are different from others. Take a -1 Penalty on all social skill rolls except for Intimidate.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Belial666 on June 11, 2010, 11:33:53 PM
Yeah, I would probably accept that. Just reduce your social track by 1 to account for your effective Presence being 2, not 3.


The only weakness I can see for the character is if someone uses Disruption or Psychometry on him and acheives a take-out. Fancy having your identity obliterated or being transformed into a newt?
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: KOFFEYKID on June 11, 2010, 11:37:16 PM
Well, you dont roll presence to determine your social stress track, you just use your presence skill. However whenever he is rolling to command somebody or something like that, that would be a presence roll, then he would take the penalty. So his social track stays the same.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Belial666 on June 11, 2010, 11:40:58 PM
Not if you want to match the Living Dead penalty. It is -1 to nearly every social skill, not just for skill rolls.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: KOFFEYKID on June 11, 2010, 11:42:12 PM
Ok, then what happens if you have a presence of 0? Do you loose a social stress bar? The black court vampires have a 0 presence and have a social stress bar of OO. Zombies too. Im more inclined to believe the power affects roll and not all applications of the skill, but if your right, then there is little to no benefit in putting any points in presence if you have either living dead or undying.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Oxbow on June 11, 2010, 11:55:28 PM
I was going by Jack's powers as a base. >_>

All the times he's 'died' and survived, after which he's up and at them pretty much straight away.

As far as I'm aware the only time he's taken longer than a few minutes to revive was when he met Abadon who's shadow consumed life (It took him 2 days or so iirc. xD)

Except when he willingly gave his life to save the inhabitants of New New York in 5,000,000,053 (c.e.?):
Dr Who Wiki,

Martha arrives at the Senate building where she sees human skeletons, and meets the dying Face of Boe, sprawled out on the ground. The Doctor urges him to live, since (as Boe says) the two of them are each the last of their kind; but the Face responds "Everything has its time"


Although the Face of Boe appeared to have died permanently (DW: Gridlock) this does not disprove the theory that he was once Jack Harkness. The Doctor simply may not have stayed long enough to witness Boe's resurrection, which is possible given that he did not suspect a connection between his two friends at the time and the more life energy Jack expels during a death the longer it takes him to be revived (TW: End of Days). Also, Boe's death may have been a metaphor for a desire to end the current life he was leading. Jack has been shown to have lived several different lives, most of which were presumably ended by his many deaths (TW: Children of Earth: Day Five). Alternatively it may be that, rather than being truly immortal, Jack Harkness instead had an excess of life. This could explain why he constantly heals from death, but does eventually die.



So, this of course only applies if indeed Jack = Boe. It might just mean he was never immortal, just "close enough".
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: KOFFEYKID on June 11, 2010, 11:59:02 PM
Ok, then what happens if you have a presence of 0? Do you loose a social stress bar? The black court vampires have a 0 presence and have a social stress bar of OO. Zombies too. Im more inclined to believe the power affects roll and not all applications of the skill, but if your right, then there is little to no benefit in putting any points in presence if you have either living dead or undying.

Also, I just thought of something, if it acts as you think it does, then as a zombie or black court vampire gets beat up (takes consequences) they'll loose more and more social stress boxes, making it easier to take them out by calling them a sissy. Im pretty sure this isn't how a penalty works, every instance Ive seen is referring to a penalty on a roll. Either by imposing a -1 modifier to a roll, or by increasing the threshold on the needed roll to succeed.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Belial666 on June 12, 2010, 12:05:43 AM
You don't get stress penalties from a low skill. OO is the default minimum and you get extra for bonuses.

And yes, a zombie or black court vampire would be easy enough to "take out" in a social situation. It doesn't always mean they get angry by being called sissies. But if they arrive in a social situation looking half-rotted, nobody is going to include them in conversations either. Being totally ignored or losing social standing is also a social "take out".
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: KOFFEYKID on June 12, 2010, 12:23:15 AM
Yeah but Scaring them and making them run away is a takeout as well. I doubt that a black court vampire with a presence of 3, and a social stress bar of OOOO is going to run away just because its taken two physical consequences (knocking it down to OOO, if you are correct). Also, like I said, i've searched the pdf for the following words: Penalty, Modifier, Modify, and all of them refer to a roll, not the skill itself.

Here is a scenario using your interpretation.

Suzy the Sentient Zombie has a presence of 4. Her Social Stress bar is as if she had a presence of 3. Making it S: OOO.

Stan insults her for being a zombie, she takes two social stress, putting her at S: OXO. Then Jimmy decides he doesn't like zombies, so he stabs her in the back. She takes a Minor Physical Consequence of "OMG, MY BACK!".

Now she is pissed, but she also (in your interpretation), has lost a social stress bar (since she has a consequence putting her overall presence at 2, instead of 3, when she actually has a presence of four), putting her at S: OX. Jimmy's other friend, Brady laughs at her, ridiculing her. She takes 2 social stress, but wait, thats past her (now modified) stress track. She is embarrassed and runs away crying (can zombies cry? Probably not).

Now, since Suzy is a zombie, she cant ever recover from that mild consequence, but she can hide it, she covers it with a nice jacket. But the consequence is still there. Now she will forever be at S: OO.

I find this unlikely. Why would a rotting corpse be less socially resilient after taking a minor consequence?

-edit

Personally, I think the penalties are little too harsh on Undying as it is. Unless you intend to kill off the character, death would never be a result from being "taken out", the power itself doesn't prevent you from being taken out, it just prevents you from dying as a result of being taken out. Then of course, the downside is a -1 penalty to Rapport, Deceit, Presence, and Empathy, which is in the neighborhood of a total of 8 Shifts of effect (a permanent -1 for 4 skills, a stunt proved a 2 shift effect, an always on effect uses the shifts generated / 2), or +4 refresh. Thats by the book. Now, if you think the power is worth about -2 if you can recover from the wounds, then a -1 penalty on both deceit and rapport rolls should be enough, based on the information we have in the Creating your own stunts section.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 12, 2010, 02:45:33 AM
Personally, I very much doubt that the penalty applies to the Stress track. IMO, it's intended as a penalty to skill rolls, not actually the skills per se (the specific wording notwithstanding). Any other interpretation is way too fiddly to be quick and enjoyable in play.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jeckel on July 04, 2010, 04:49:19 AM
Ok, been a while, but I think I've put together a custom power that works nicely, but first I'm going to cover the reasons I think a new power is justified.

1) I don't like the idea of locking down Physical Immunity. Since, unlike Immortals, they don't have a weakness to their death immunity, I don't see any harm in an Undying character taking a Physical Immunity of whatever type would normally be allowed by the group.

2) Wording it as a catch gets confusing since you have to describe the exceptions to the power instead of as its effects. In other words, "You are immune to death" is easier to understand then "Physical Immunity doesn't apply to anything except death", at least when it is more complex then those simple examples. ;)

3) There are other particulars I think fit well with the template and they need their own power any way, so it don't hurt to move the no-death effect to that power.

Anyway, that said, here is the power I came up with.

Deathless [-2]

Note: The result of extreme measures that could cause total destruction of the character (for example, immersion in a star) should be decided during character creation if they are applicable to the story.

Effects:

Endless Life: Drowning, starvation, gun-shots, stabbing, explosions, fire, etc, the cause doesn't matter, you are so full of life-force that death can not touch you; however, if your brain is in a shape to process input, you'll get to feel every agonizing moment of it. You take stress and consequences normally, though no "death" result is ever possible. This essence of life resides in a specific organ of the body (generally head or heart) decided on at creation time. Without any upgrades to this ability, the character can only control pieces of their body when they are connected to this organ. For example, if the life-essence was centered in the head and the head was removed, the eyes and mouth would still be controllable, but the body would not.

Parts of a Whole [-2]: Increasing the refresh cost of this ability by 2 will allow severed body parts to be controlled independently, hands can still grab, eyes can still see, legs can still kick, etc. All actions performed by the body parts not connected to the specified essence center receive a -1 penalty if they are visible to the character and at least -2 if not. If a new body part is regenerated to replace the old one, then all connection to the previous part is lost.

--------------------------------------------------------------

My question, does the upgrade cost of -2 sound right?


I also have a third effect I'm working on, but I can't figure out what type of benefit it should get. This is what I have so far.

The thematics...
Pain Don't Hurt: Living through death a handfull of times really puts pain into perspective.

Here is what I've been thinking about for the rest...

a) Gain +3 on any roll to resist or overcome physical pain.

or

b) Receive 2 additional Mild (umm.. Mental or Physical?) Consequence.

or

c) You get 2 additional (again.. Mental or Physical?) Stress boxes.


As you can see, I'm not sure if the "resistance to pain" should model around Mental or Physical. As for the numbers in any of those, they were just of the top of my head.

Any advice on the mechanics of how to implement "getting use to the pain after living though damage that would kill everyone else"?
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Drachasor on July 04, 2010, 05:28:53 AM
Ok, been looking at this as it is one of the two kinds of characters I needed the most for an upcoming RP (Immortal being the other one). Here is what I've put together for the 'Musts' section of the Template.

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Physical Immunity [-8] (page YS:186): Death can not touch you. Drowning, starvation, gun-shots, stabbing, bombs, fire, etc, the cause doesn't matter, you do not die and - if your brain is in a shape to process input - you feel every bit of it. No resistance to damage is gained, but regardless of what wounds are inflicted upon you, death will not come... no matter how much you may wish it would.

The Stacked Catch [+6] (page YS:187): This catch allows everything except for the specific act of death to bypass the Physical Immunity power. When one of the Undying is Taken Out, death will not result from any action taken as part of the victory conditions. Similarly, nothing - except perhaps plot device level effects - can cause the character to be made temporarily or permanently dead. Discovering the conditions of this catch would not be difficult, though some might wrongly assume that death can be caused by some specific means.

Must also take one of: <i>Inhuman Recovery [–2]</i> (page YS:185), <i>Supernatural Recovery [-4]</i> (page YS:186), or <i>Mythic Recovery [-6]</i> (page YS:186).

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From what I read in this thread the numbers are good, but I'm hoping I worded everything correctly in the catch to justify the +6 refund.

For Jack take out the "temporarily dead" part.  He can die for brief bits, but sort of plot devices at the end of the scene he's alive with his Mythic Recovery having taken effect.

So Jack's immortality is Mythic Recover (full -6, nearly impossible to figure out or bypass), with a -2 Physical Immunity (Death only with your mods)

That seems to compare fairly well with a nearly impossible to breach Physical Immunity.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: wyvern on July 04, 2010, 05:58:07 AM
Jeckel - how's this look?  I deliberately made it apply only to physical consequences, though; something that lets you shrug off mental consequences would muck around with spellcaster balance.  Despite that, it can still be used to improve your mental defenses in some instances - for example, the simplest form of torture is inflicting physical consequences to wear down the subject's resistance (i.e. occupy the consequence slots so they can't be used for mental defense) - in which case, the ability to shrug off a physical consequence does help.

Pain Don't Hurt: -1 refresh.

Musts: In order to have this power, you must have survived enough pain to have an aspect referring to that - something like "I'm Not Dead Yet," or "CIA Agent Training".

This power offers a +1 on any skill check to resist pain (typically endurance or discipline).  In addition, you get the "Shrug It Off" trapping of Inhuman Recovery - with the difference that, instead of healing the injury, you simply ignore it - that cut across your shoulder just doesn't bother you enough to be worth slowing down for.

While this frees up the consequence slot to be used again, keep in mind that the injury is still there, still heals at whatever its normal rate is, and may still be subject to some (generally quite unusual) compels - for example, an open wound would allow someone to apply a poison that has to go directly into the bloodstream.

This power may be purchased up to three times; each time allows an additional use per scene of Shrug It Off, but does not increase the bonus on skill checks to resist pain.  In addition, you may (with GM permission) spend two uses to shrug off a moderate physical consequence - if it's something that can reasonably be ignored (GMs are encouraged to be relatively lenient with this - a cracked rib could be ignored, for example, while a broken right arm probably couldn't be - but the latter would probably be a severe consequence anyway.)
However, doing this upgrades the level of the consequence, and only lasts for the duration of the scene; if you ignore that cracked rib, the injury is going to get worse, will take longer to heal, and - by the end of the scene - is past your limits of what you can ignore.  (If this results in the character temporarily having two taggable severe consequences, so be it.)

This ability also explicitly does not stack with the existing recovery powers - an individual with inhuman recovery could spend no more than two refresh on Pain Don't Hurt, and someone with mythic recovery couldn't buy it at all.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Valarian on July 04, 2010, 06:59:10 AM
How about the ability to change a physical consequence to a mental one? The pain is still there, but the character has learnt to ignore it while the body recovers (be about -2 upgrade to the Deathless power). However, the character is still affected by the wound mentally. 
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jeckel on July 05, 2010, 09:44:08 PM
Some nice ideas guys. I've had a few in-depth debates with some friends on this topic and the consensus seems to be that the extra effect to the Deathless power is unnecessary as the same thematic result could be achieved other ways and isn't central to the purpose of the power at hand. I don't 100 percent agree, but I see their point and after reading wyvern's post I'm starting to think that what I was looking for could better be done as its own stand-alone power or maybe a stunt.

Either way, the Deathless power as I posted solves my main concerns, namely convoluted writing of the descriptions and locking down of the Physical Immunity power.

For Jack take out the "temporarily dead" part.  He can die for brief bits, but sort of plot devices at the end of the scene he's alive with his Mythic Recovery having taken effect.

Ahh, but does he die briefly or is he just unconscious? I site the event where he was buried for 2,000 years and when his body was brought out his skin was still nice and pink. This would seem to suggest that his body wasn't truly dead, just in a deep suspended animation-like state.

EDIT: I made the template its own thread (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19510.0.html) since it is more general then just Jack. Thanks for all the help guys, this turned out better then I could have hoped for. :)
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jersalyn on July 09, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
Should Jack be put down for violating the 6th Law? While Rose would have to answer for: the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th while skimming the 7th? heh
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 09, 2010, 09:30:32 PM
The Laws only apply if you're using Magic to break them. So I don't think any Doctor Who characers have broken any of them. Well, Rose may've broken the 2nd by making Jack immortal, depending on what you count as magic...
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Drachasor on July 10, 2010, 05:22:58 AM
Ahh, but does he die briefly or is he just unconscious? I site the event where he was buried for 2,000 years and when his body was brought out his skin was still nice and pink. This would seem to suggest that his body wasn't truly dead, just in a deep suspended animation-like state

When he's been killed, people check his vitals and there is no sign of life.  When he was buried, they talk about how he was constantly dying and being reanimated for 2000 years.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jeckel on July 10, 2010, 05:53:46 AM
When he's been killed, people check his vitals and there is no sign of life.  When he was buried, they talk about how he was constantly dying and being reanimated for 2000 years.

True, but not having vitals (especially when the check for vitals is done by a person and not machines and tests) isn't the same as massive cellular death throughout your body. There are many things in real life that could make a person seem dead to the standard checks for life. I define "dead" as the point when the bacteria in your body start eating and decomposing you. Its been awhile since I've watched the ep, but I seem to remember a scene where he was in the morgue on one of the tables and a dead body was on the table next to him. His skin was nice and pink, while the dead guy's body was the standard dead-body-gray color. This to me shows that his body never truly died, though I'm sure it felt like he had more then once.

You can't base in-world mechanics off of characters' conversational dialogue. People say inaccurate things all the time, especially when the people around them know what they are talking about anyway, and the same thing applies to the conversions of characters. Jack saying he died and came back to life over and over doesn't carry any weight because he is the one suffering through the traumatic situation and his perspective is understandably clouded. If he had died or gone unconscious from shock, suffocation, etc, he wouldn't know the difference between that or dieing and coming back. Once you're unconscious your heart can stop, be shocked back, and you would never know it.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Drachasor on July 10, 2010, 08:07:38 AM
True, but not having vitals (especially when the check for vitals is done by a person and not machines and tests) isn't the same as massive cellular death throughout your body. There are many things in real life that could make a person seem dead to the standard checks for life. I define "dead" as the point when the bacteria in your body start eating and decomposing you. Its been awhile since I've watched the ep, but I seem to remember a scene where he was in the morgue on one of the tables and a dead body was on the table next to him. His skin was nice and pink, while the dead guy's body was the standard dead-body-gray color. This to me shows that his body never truly died, though I'm sure it felt like he had more then once.

You can't base in-world mechanics off of characters' conversational dialogue. People say inaccurate things all the time, especially when the people around them know what they are talking about anyway, and the same thing applies to the conversions of characters. Jack saying he died and came back to life over and over doesn't carry any weight because he is the one suffering through the traumatic situation and his perspective is understandably clouded. If he had died or gone unconscious from shock, suffocation, etc, he wouldn't know the difference between that or dieing and coming back. Once you're unconscious your heart can stop, be shocked back, and you would never know it.

When he was in the morgue they did medical scans on him.  And your definition of "dead" is kind of silly, as it wouldn't work in space, for instance.  Death happens when your organs are no longer functioning, and they've shown he's gone through that.  Beyond such thing, the Doctor has confirmed that he dies and then comes back during the first cross-over -- you can hardly find a better expert than that.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jeckel on July 10, 2010, 08:57:41 AM
Ok, you got me, I will gladly cede the point based on the word of the Doctor. And chalk him being scaned with machines for life up to my bad memory. Guess I need to look for a new example of someone that doesn't die. :)

I don't agree that my definition of death is silly, though I guess the way I wrote was sort of rambling. If the rule was "when your organs no longer function" then various forms of sci-fi suspended animation or cryogenic stasis that completely stop the functioning of organs would make you dead and I don't think that feels right.

Personally I don't think your dead until some undefined point when you can't be "brought back to life". I guess I put the line where your body as a whole begins to break down for whatever reason, be it bacteria in an appropriate atmosphere, the vacuum and radiation of space degrading the cells, or whatever. Its a hard thing to put a definitive line on as evident by the lack of a satisfying biological definition of "life" in the real world, much less a real definition of when someone or something is "dead". Either way, just how I've handled it in my rps, I'm sure others have done it other ways and have other definitions.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Drachasor on July 10, 2010, 09:11:58 AM
Personally I don't think your dead until some undefined point when you can't be "brought back to life". I guess I put the line where your body as a whole begins to break down for whatever reason, be it bacteria in an appropriate atmosphere, the vacuum and radiation of space degrading the cells, or whatever. Its a hard thing to put a definitive line on as evident by the lack of a satisfying biological definition of "life" in the real world, much less a real definition of when someone or something is "dead". Either way, just how I've handled it in my rps, I'm sure others have done it other ways and have other definitions.

Your definition of death is a moving target with regards to advancing medical technology.  Even today we can bring people back that 30 years ago we could not.  Decay is just a kind of tissue damage, and bacteria feasting on your flesh is just a kind of infection.  Death isn't an easy thing to spot per se either, and we have doctors declare people dead after attempts to revive someone fail.  There's a certain point after which no oxygen to the brain will lead to unavoidable brain damage (today anyhow, perhaps in 30 years we'll be able to repair that and extend how long someone can be dead before being brought back).  I'll grant my definition was imprecise, such as it is, as various parts of the body stop working at different points, but one might consider that just indicative that death has some grey areas.

In anycase, Jack goes through periods where his heart, brain, lungs, and so forth cease function and only comes out of that do to the fact he's a fact.

Oddly as it may seem though, defining "life" is different from defining "death," but that's because our definitions for "life" are very broad and involve reproduction ("life" and "alive" are different).

Anyhow, the game system seems to have a few ways to handle immortality of various sorts, which is pretty cool.
Title: Re: Capt. Jack Harkness
Post by: Jersalyn on July 10, 2010, 12:22:50 PM
You guys forgetting when a BOMB BLEW UP INSIDE HIM?