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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Falar on May 09, 2010, 04:19:53 PM

Title: Changeling Questions
Post by: Falar on May 09, 2010, 04:19:53 PM
Hey, so over in PbP, a couple people (including myself) are starting a game where we merry-go-round GMs and all, using the Twin Cities in Minnesota as the base. We're poking through City Creation and some people are starting to throw out characters. Two people have thrown out using the Changeling template, and I wanted to make sure I'm interpreting a few things correctly.

1. As a Changeling, you only have access to powers that are included in your fae heritage. So no Unseelie Magic for Troll-born and no Inhuman Toughness for Half-Pixies.

2. Once you either have all the powers of your fae heritage or you are negative refresh, you become an NPC. So for the low, low price of five refresh as an Half-Elf, you become an NPC, but for an Ogre-born, you've got 12 to go before you hit the wall.

Is that Oll Korrect?
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: luminos on May 09, 2010, 04:31:36 PM
That is correct from my reading of the rules.  On number 2, they can still buy mortal stunts without risking a Fae change, so the half-elf isn't goint to be stuck at the <5 range for total refresh, just for powers.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Falar on May 09, 2010, 04:35:08 PM
Yup, yup, yup. And if they had another way to gain powers - say they also got bitten by a Red Court Vampire - those powers wouldn't affect the fae choice. Or if they had an Item of Power.

Thanks, Luminos!
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: JustinS on May 09, 2010, 06:16:28 PM
You need to figure out a set of appropriate bloodline powers, they do not need to be one of the specific listed examples. So, you could be descended from a more powerful elf/pixie subtype, or gain more access by exposure to power, and growing importance (see Toot-toot for evidence the later effect applies). This may be something to look into at major milestones...
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: drnuncheon on May 09, 2010, 06:49:40 PM
I don't believe you go NPC until you run out of refresh, even if you make your Choice.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: luminos on May 09, 2010, 08:24:27 PM
I don't believe you go NPC until you run out of refresh, even if you make your Choice.

The rules disagree with you.  Pg. 75 YS
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: paul_Harkonen on May 09, 2010, 08:48:04 PM
Unless the text has been changed from the beta (I haven't bothered to update yet, even though I should) then it is not clear on that page that Choice = NPC.

The text says if you empty your refresh or fulfill all the musts then "he becomes full Faerie, never to be mortal again and fully subject to the will of the Faerie Courts."  This does not mean they are necessarily NPCs.  There are Wyld Fae that maintain independence from the courts, and individuals in the courts that also maintain a degree of independence, even though they are somewhat subject to the whims of the Queens.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: luminos on May 09, 2010, 08:50:13 PM
Its not the fact that he would be tied to the Faerie Courts that would make him an NPC.  Its the fact that he would no longer be mortal, and would thus no longer have free will.

Edit: Although I suppose it just depends on how your group is comfortable playing it.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 09, 2010, 09:04:00 PM
1. As a Changeling, you only have access to powers that are included in your fae heritage. So no Unseelie Magic for Troll-born and no Inhuman Toughness for Half-Pixies.

While people got this right, there is the fact that you get to design your Faerie parent (with GM approval). If your father was, say, a mighty Summer Court Ogre knight, who, being greater than his brethren, had Supernatural Strength instead of merely Inhuman, you might inherit that Strength, and could thus buy it despite most ogres not possessing it.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: drnuncheon on May 09, 2010, 09:53:37 PM
The rules disagree with you.  Pg. 75 YS

I don't see anything that looks like "becomes an NPC" on that page.  However, the page before says "often becoming an NPC as his power costs rise to exceed his refresh", which suggests that the usual rules for crossing the line into NPCdom apply.

I'm also not entirely convinced that no fey have free will.  The Wyldfae seem to have some element of it, in that they can choose between Summer and Winter, and Harry scrupulously avoided using compulsions on Toot (Morgan tried to come down on him about it - sure, he was looking for any excuse, but he seemed to think he might have had a case).
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: JosephKell on May 09, 2010, 10:28:54 PM
I don't see anything that looks like "becomes an NPC" on that page.  However, the page before says "often becoming an NPC as his power costs rise to exceed his refresh", which suggests that the usual rules for crossing the line into NPCdom apply.

I'm also not entirely convinced that no fey have free will.  The Wyldfae seem to have some element of it, in that they can choose between Summer and Winter, and Harry scrupulously avoided using compulsions on Toot (Morgan tried to come down on him about it - sure, he was looking for any excuse, but he seemed to think he might have had a case).
As Luminous said: YS75 "If taking on another ability reduces your character's refresh to zero or otherwise fulfills all the "musts" of a faerie of the appropriate type, the changeling's Chice is made and he becomes a full faerie, never mortal again, and now fully subject to the will of the Faerie Courts."

The underlined portion means "If you now have all the powers of your fae parent, you are now fully fae (an NPC)."
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Falar on May 09, 2010, 10:54:30 PM
Heh. You beat me to the punch. I was about to copy out the same thing that you copied out in reply to what the good Doctor was saying.

I think another thing to play up is how non-human you would look by the time you took the last power. Once you take that five points, you look exactly like an elf. You are three feet tall, have pointed ears, delicate features and are more slender than is humanly possibly. You also have practically an unearthly aura around you.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: drnuncheon on May 09, 2010, 11:32:18 PM
The underlined portion means "If you now have all the powers of your fae parent, you are now fully fae (an NPC)."

Fully fae, sure.  It's the implication that makes you an NPC that I disagree with.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Falar on May 10, 2010, 01:39:04 AM
Fully fae means you don't have free will. You are bound to your nature. If they meant for there to be an option to be fully fae and be a PC, then there would be a Fae template.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: paul_Harkonen on May 10, 2010, 01:53:49 AM
Fully fae means you don't have free will. You are bound to your nature. If they meant for there to be an option to be fully fae and be a PC, then there would be a Fae template.

This is flawed logic.  Fred has said several times (and I think there's even a line in the book about it) that Templates are not the end all be all of character creation.  They are ways to create characters that we have seen, but if you have an idea, run with it.  Work with your GM and fellow players, and if it makes sense, don't worry about whether there's a template already out for it.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Falar on May 10, 2010, 02:27:10 AM
Personally, I would never see someone who is fully fae as having the free will required to be a PC. It's such a low refresh option in many cases (Cobb, Elf, Goblin, Hob, Malk, Pixie, and Sylph, which is about half of what I saw) that I'm sure the game designers would have included the option if they felt that it was in keeping with the world as presented in the books. I don't feel that they did, which is why I cite that.

I do definitely agree that whatever your game has, go with it where you will. I just couldn't say I was running a Dresdenverse game if I had full fae creatures as PCs. That does not strike me as something that even works. They are entirely bound to their natures. Debts, exchanges, truth. Etc. Without a lot of work and justification, I could not see myself ever running with something like that. There are a couple ways I could see it possibly working out, but they're pretty contrived.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: drnuncheon on May 10, 2010, 02:57:21 AM
Fully fae means you don't have free will. You are bound to your nature. If they meant for there to be an option to be fully fae and be a PC, then there would be a Fae template.

If the Choice was meant to make them go NPC, then they would be specifically noted (like the Red Court Infected on page 80).

Keep in mind that most of the fey we see Harry dealing with are those in the upper reaches of power: Mab, Maeve, Leanansidhe.  That's some serious refresh cost there.  And one changeling we saw go fey became the Summer Lady.  There's a lot more leeway at the lower levels - when Morgan is ready to kill Harry in Storm Front for breaking the Fourth Law, the argument is meaningless if Toot doesn't have free will (or something like it).

Last, in the game, the idea of "free will" is a sliding scale.  A White Court Virgin in a "Feet in the Water" game who kills using her Emotional Vampire abilities becomes an NPC and loses all of her free will - but the exact same character in a "Chest Deep" game is a viable PC.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: John Galt on May 10, 2010, 03:01:56 AM
Just my two cents:

You should look at the lore of Dresdenverse in general, since that is what this RPG is meant to emulate.  And if you do you'll find fully Fae characters don't have the same free will mortals or changelings do.  When Harry interacts with Lily and Fix after they become Summer Lady and Knight, they are literally not allowed to help him directly.  They're not allowed to fight with him, and they're not allowed to give information to him.  Even though they WANT TO.  That is pretty much the definition of NOT HAVING A FREE WILL. 

So in game, like all games of this nature, it's entirely up to the GM if he/she wants to allow it, but as far as the lore of the novels go, and the rules suggested by game designers, a fully Fae PC isn't possible.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Walker_Blade on May 10, 2010, 03:16:19 AM
Um, while I actually agree that Fae have no free will and should generally not be PCs, your example of not having free will includes a human.  Fix may be the Summer Knight, but that IS a PC template and he does have free will, he was under a magical compulsion.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: paul_Harkonen on May 10, 2010, 03:20:25 AM
On the other hand Toot, the Erkling, and (it seems to some extent) Gobblins do have an element of Free Will.  They can make choices whether or not to be involved, and can choose who to bind themselves to and how to behave.  It becomes a question of how you define free will I think.  If you mean it in the sense of "God gave us Free Will" then you are correct about Fae.  If you mean it more in the sense of, have control over their own choices and can make independent decisions it becomes less clear.  (Keep in mind that mortals can also make deals whereby the can't aid others, even if they want to and instead must find ways around it, just as Lily
(click to show/hide)
in Proven Guilty.

This one is going to have to just be a GM and players game time decision I think.  It seems pretty clear to me that there isn't a conclusive ruling from the book, and so it makes sense to have a discussion about it with your group.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Dragon_Blooded on May 10, 2010, 03:24:37 AM
As Luminous said: YS75 "If taking on another ability reduces your character's refresh to zero or otherwise fulfills all the "musts" of a faerie of the appropriate type, the changeling's Chice is made and he becomes a full faerie, never mortal again, and now fully subject to the will of the Faerie Courts."

The underlined portion means "If you now have all the powers of your fae parent, you are now fully fae (an NPC)."

This is your assumption, not something that's explicit on the text. Actually, the fact that the text specifically points out that a Changeling that chooses to become a full faeries "often  becoming an NPC as his power costs rise to exceed his refresh" suggests that NPC-dom is a consequence of running out of refresh and not something that always happens to Faerie PCs, otherwise that "often" would have been and "always", and the note about running out of refresh wouldn't be necessary.

Also, for all the talk about monster characters not having full will and going against the novels themes, White Court Vampires are full monsters that only look (but are not) human, and are explicitly suggested as a PC template for high refresh games. Which makes perfect sense, since Thomas would obviously be a PC. Heck, Mouse is suggested as a possible PC, and he's clearly not human.

Eduardo Penna
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: luminos on May 10, 2010, 04:18:59 AM

Also, for all the talk about monster characters not having full will and going against the novels themes, White Court Vampires are full monsters that only look (but are not) human, and are explicitly suggested as a PC template for high refresh games. Which makes perfect sense, since Thomas would obviously be a PC. Heck, Mouse is suggested as a possible PC, and he's clearly not human.

Eduardo Penna

Except White Court Vampires are not full monsters.  They are human.  They have a demon that shares space with their soul, but they are in fact human.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Charlemagne XXXIII on May 10, 2010, 07:00:23 AM
If the Choice was meant to make them go NPC, then they would be specifically noted (like the Red Court Infected on page 80).

Keep in mind that most of the fey we see Harry dealing with are those in the upper reaches of power: Mab, Maeve, Leanansidhe.  That's some serious refresh cost there.  And one changeling we saw go fey became the Summer Lady.  There's a lot more leeway at the lower levels - when Morgan is ready to kill Harry in Storm Front for breaking the Fourth Law, the argument is meaningless if Toot doesn't have free will (or something like it).

Last, in the game, the idea of "free will" is a sliding scale.  A White Court Virgin in a "Feet in the Water" game who kills using her Emotional Vampire abilities becomes an NPC and loses all of her free will - but the exact same character in a "Chest Deep" game is a viable PC.

I fully agree with just about everything said in this post. One thing though, Mab obviously has free will. Lea has free will or she wouldn't have turned against her nature (as a servant of the Winter Court) to plot against Mab. Sure, she isn't a viable PC, but she sure as hell has some elements of free will.

Toot and other unaligned fey obviously have free will, or they wouldn't be able to pick and choose sides. Simply being completely something other than human does not immediately make the character an NPC, just like being human doesn't make them a PC. Mouse is suggested as a potential character for cripes sake and we know he isn't human, or even apparently an actual dog for that matter.

As far as the White Court Virgin who becomes full Vamp and goes below the minimum refresh level would be interesting to see later in the game. Maybe after a certain amount of time and added refresh, the character could be reintroduced, having learned to control her Hunger. Hmmm...

Also, I might be a little biased about the idea of Fey being playable because one of my character concepts is a pixie.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Falar on May 10, 2010, 02:34:23 PM
Lea has free will or she wouldn't have turned against her nature (as a servant of the Winter Court) to plot against Mab.
I personally got the impression that the ritual athame that Cowl gave her had her enchanted and that's why she was plotting against Mab.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: neko128 on May 10, 2010, 03:08:01 PM
Toot and other unaligned fey obviously have free will, or they wouldn't be able to pick and choose sides.

Toot was quoted in the books as saying he had the freedom to help Harry because he had not yet been called by either side.  In addition, he had a long-standing obligation to Harry - the Pizza deliveries formed, in effect, a contract between them, and he had an onus of debt towards the Wizard.  I don't believe he has free will at all.  Hell - in Storm Front, Harry makes a big deal out of how he's bound 'round by the Faerie limitations of honesty and the rule of three and all that.

For that matter, it's mentioned a number of times that the Queens and Ladies and Mothers have no option but to follow their nature.  Exactly *how* they follow their nature is up for some debate, but their nature is the driving factor there.  The Knights are different, being Mortal, but their ties to the court allow some very strong magical compulsions to be laid upon them if desired.  But even then the Ladies are almost a bad example - look at their entry, OW41.  The Ladies are, very specifically, "the closest to the mortal world", the most closely tied to the Knights, and cannot interfere with the workings of the court in Faerie.  I interpret that as, they don't have full free will - they must follow their nature - but their nature is to be the Queen's avatar (so to speak) to the human world...  And to be most influenced by it.

Look at the paragraph on OW22 -
Quote
The Knights
can also act in affairs not directly related to
Faerie, making them the primary outlet of the
Faerie Courts for intrigue in the mortal world.
This relative freedom is, of course, enabled
by the fact that Sidhe Knights must be
mortal—i.e., human.

...Implying the Queens (including the Ladies) cannot cannot meddle in purely mortal affairs unless the Court is already involved with them.

I dunno.  I see it this way.  We know that anyone who hits zero refresh is considered non-mortal and an NPC - their nature has overtaken their will.  In my mind, then, the more refresh points of non-mortal-Stunts you have, it's more of a "sliding scale" of nature vs. free will.  A full RCV or WCV is higher refresh than an infectee or a virgin, and have less free will than them - their nature has overcome more of their being.  A Wizard, while mortal (or close enough) and with Free Will, is a slave to his nature - and his nature reinforces his existence as a Wizard.  A Werewolf is slave to his beast - his nature - as much as any Demon, even though he retains Free Will.  It's not a zero-sum game; it's shades of grey all the way down the line.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: Charlemagne XXXIII on May 10, 2010, 04:49:31 PM
I just don't see the problem with allowing someone to play a fully fey character (within the bounds of your game's starting refresh) as long as they are aware and willing to take on everything that means. That means deals are binding, cold iron is a no-no, can't lie (outright), etc.

It is quite evident that any and every fey is compelled by their nature, but by that token, every human is as well. Some just have more freedom to act against their nature (higher refresh). It is evident that the wyldfae are free to act as they will because they are less powerful. They don't have the mass of responsibilities and power that the greater fey do, so they can choose. Sure, they can get called to one court or another, but that seems to be more of a draft. In a case where there was Calling going on, it would be difficult to actually play a wyldfae, but you could explain it as "I'm doing what I can for X Court by aiding the rest of the group in solving the problem", being aligned with the Wild Hunt (in which case you'd have to run with them when they went out), or some other plot related device.

If you look at Toot and the Za Brigade's actions in SK, you can see that they are only on the side of Winter because they're allied with Harry. Toot himself couldn't tell whether he'd go to Winter or Summer when he talked about the Calling with Harry earlier in the book. In a later book, Toot even works against Summer and Winter by scouting for the Gruffs and then warning Harry of Mab's approach. Toot and his compatriots choose to work with Harry (because, it's pizza!), but at any point they could have refused to work with him. Sure, he could have cast a spell or used Toot's true name to compel him into working for him, but that'd be breaking one of the laws.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: luminos on May 10, 2010, 04:53:43 PM
One problem I see as far as playing a Fae goes, is that by being bound by their nature, it would be impossible to refuse a compel that was tied to that nature.  As far as gameplay mechanics goes, that tells me that the Fae are just not in the class of things meant for PC's.  A mortal with an aspect that says they never lie can buy out of his compels, but a Fae can never do the same, no matter how many fate points the GM gives them.
Title: Re: Changeling Questions
Post by: neko128 on May 10, 2010, 05:29:08 PM
One problem I see as far as playing a Fae goes, is that by being bound by their nature, it would be impossible to refuse a compel that was tied to that nature.  As far as gameplay mechanics goes, that tells me that the Fae are just not in the class of things meant for PC's.  A mortal with an aspect that says they never lie can buy out of his compels, but a Fae can never do the same, no matter how many fate points the GM gives them.

Buying out of a compel isn't necessarily just causing the compel to not happen - it can also merely be buying out of the consequences of the compel.  Example, from YS102:

Quote
Keep in mind, though, that when you
buy out of a compel, what you’re really
buying out of is the potential complication
that could arise from what’s proposed.
You’re giving yourself the option of a
response that’s not as dramatic. So you don’t
have to say, “No, my brother doesn’t show
up on my doorstep.” You might say, “Man,
I’ve got a lot going on right now in this
story…look, here’s a fate point, and let’s say
I call an ambulance and just get him to the
hospital.”

So if you're playing a full-Fae, it may not be a matter that buying off a compel lets you escape the requirement to follow your nature - it may be simply that following your nature does not complicate the issue like the compel was originally intended to do.