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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Liger on May 04, 2010, 04:24:49 AM
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So, I have an idea for a book, however I have been having trouble getting this idea down on paper. I can visualized the various scenes in the book, and have written up and drawn a diagram of the plot, however when I get to actually writing down the story I come to standstill. I begin to fret over which words would be the best to use, and worry that each senetence is not as good as it could be.
I used to play some online text based rpgs, which is actually what got me interested in writing. Those helped me better understand writing, but I am still having issues with this. If any of you can offer advice, it would be much appreciated.
Here is a sample of the prologue,
The rain fell in a soft patter around a tall, shadowy figure as he pulled his coat tighter to keep the cold off his body. Hurrying through the dimly lit street, the figure only paused to check over his shoulder. The moon shown faintly through the cloud cover, revealing the shadowy man moved briskly through the cold night. Suddenly coming to a sharp halt under one of the street lights, the man turned and looked behind him, searching the dark rain. With a short nod to himself in satisfaction that he had not been followed, the man continued down the road a little further until he came to a narrow alley with a short, stubby door at the far end. Turning off the street and walking down the alley, the man worked his way past half-full trash cans and broken beer bottles to the other end of the alley and the door. Pulling a set of keys out of his pocket, the man squinted in the dark as he fumbled around with his keys.
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Simple answer, just write. And if it's crap, then it's crap. That's why it's called a rough draft. You can always go back and edit/revise later. For the most part, it's pretty rare to get something in the final form with absolutely no changes whatsoever the first time you write it down.
Also, just from that prologue bit, try varying the sentence structure more. Every sentence you have is a complex sentence--either clause, dependent clause, or dependent clause, clause. Try mixing in simple or compound sentences. Or compound complex.
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you might also want to vary your wording, you use a lot of shadows, and nights in it, little repetitive.
as for writing, i been having the same issue with a book of mine that i just recently started cracking down on. i was given the same advise of just keep on writing and fix it later, unfortunately that's not how my brain works when i am typing i want to get it over with. so i started writing out my ideas and such in a journal and that really got the brain goo sloshing about.
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Also, just from that prologue bit, try varying the sentence structure more. Every sentence you have is a complex sentence--either clause, dependent clause, or dependent clause, clause. Try mixing in simple or compound sentences. Or compound complex.
Why would you want to do that ? Doing it this way generates a distinctive voice, which is a plus point.
Lots of short simple sentences gives you a Sam Spade feel. Loots of compound complex sentences gives you a d'Artagnan feel. Either is worth having.
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As a screenwriter and librarian, the best advice anyone can give is...just write. Of course it's gonna be crap the first few times, but then...not so crappy. Then it moves to not quite bad, followed by it's not totally awful, then maybe I can show it to someone who's not my mom. And if you keep it up...who knows? It's not what you write. It's how much do you NEED to write?
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Why would you want to do that ? Doing it this way generates a distinctive voice, which is a plus point.
Lots of short simple sentences gives you a Sam Spade feel. Loots of compound complex sentences gives you a d'Artagnan feel. Either is worth having.
To be fair part of the Compound complex sentences giving you a d'Artagnan feel is that the French are the masters of the compound sentence. Every paper I wrote in America from the time I was 11 till 24(when i stopped writing papers that were graded) I have had the same problem of "this is a run on sentence, fix it".
Phoenix guard is written this way to give a feel for it being in "Old Language" instead of "Modern Language"
"By the Horse, I think I have been saying nothing else for the last hour!"
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i write, i leave it a day or so, i read it back.
if i don't lose track of the time rereading it, i delete it and try again
unless you get all the ideas out you'll never find out which bits work
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To be fair part of the Compound complex sentences giving you a d'Artagnan feel is that the French are the masters of the compound sentence. Every paper I wrote in America from the time I was 11 till 24(when i stopped writing papers that were graded) I have had the same problem of "this is a run on sentence, fix it".
The longer your sentences the smaller your potential audience. Not necessarily a bad thing but it's something to consider. Most Americans read at an 8th grade level which means that they start to have trouble if the average length of a sentence in your story rises above approximately 12 words. Long sentences are perfectly functional, and can be used to greaty stylistic effect, but you should be careful not to use them too often if your goal is to be widely read.
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Thanks for all your imput guys. You all have given me differnt approaches to consider and your probably right that I should not worry so much about the first draft being perfect. So once again, thanks.
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Status liger? Wishing you well
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Most Americans read at an 8th grade level which means that they start to have trouble if the average length of a sentence in your story rises above approximately 12 words. Long sentences are perfectly functional, and can be used to greaty stylistic effect, but you should be careful not to use them too often if your goal is to be widely read.
:) :) ;)
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The longer your sentences the smaller your potential audience. Not necessarily a bad thing but it's something to consider. Most Americans read at an 8th grade level which means that they start to have trouble if the average length of a sentence in your story rises above approximately 12 words. Long sentences are perfectly functional, and can be used to greaty stylistic effect, but you should be careful not to use them too often if your goal is to be widely read.
Most Americans only have a couple of books in the house; an awful lot of them, last numbers I saw, pretty much only have a Bible.
It seems to me that, while there are certain considerations worth bearing in mind for potential audience if you're writing something, one of them that's kind of fundamentally inarguable is people who actually read books.
Also; people whose "goal is to be widely read" don't sell novels. People who can write a decent book sell novels.
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Can't we accept that style variesn that art comes in many forms and remember there is more to life than chasing audiences? Art takes courage.
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if you'd ever seen me paint you'd know art takes courage...
for my audience
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if you'd ever seen me paint you'd know art takes courage...
for my audience
LOL thank you for my Monday funny!
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So, I have an idea for a book, however I have been having trouble getting this idea down on paper. I can visualized the various scenes in the book, and have written up and drawn a diagram of the plot, however when I get to actually writing down the story I come to standstill. I begin to fret over which words would be the best to use, and worry that each senetence is not as good as it could be.
Every accomplished writer sees tons of changes and edits applied to their manuscript before it's published. And these are people who've been in the business for years. As somebody who's just starting out, don't fret it. Because that's a surefire way to slow your progress and fill your head full of doubt. My advice to you is to just get something on paper. It won't be perfect. It never is. Every author in the business writes multiple drafts of every novel.
Just keep those fingers moving across the keys, keep that pen moving across the paper, and finish the story that's in your head. You might find yourself wincing at some of the stuff you write, but that's okay. This is just the first draft. Once you finish your project, you can put it away for awhile and when you're ready you can come back to revise it with a fresh state of mind. So don't fret over those individual words and sentences, especially on the first draft. You can always come back and fix them. Just finish your draft, pat yourself on the back then get back to work.
I'd like to recommend a book to you that I read recently: Techniques of the Selling Writer by Dwight V. Swain. It's an older work, and shows its age in some places, but the advice is really good. You can get a copy on amazon.com for a few bucks and I think it'll really help you out.
Best of luck!
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Just keep those fingers moving across the keys, keep that pen moving across the paper, and finish the story that's in your head. You might find yourself wincing at some of the stuff you write, but that's okay. This is just the first draft. Once you finish your project, you can put it away for awhile and when you're ready you can come back to revise it with a fresh state of mind.
It is worth noting that there are writers who cannot do this; for whom setting the story down wrong kills the story. Some of them have established careers nonetheless.
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It is worth noting that there are writers who cannot do this; for whom setting the story down wrong kills the story. Some of them have established careers nonetheless.
Of that I have no doubt. Every successful writer got there by doing what worked for her/him. I offered the best solution that I could think of to help the poster get past the stumbling block they wanted to address.
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Here is a sample of the prologue,
The rain fell in a soft patter around a tall, shadowy figure as he pulled his coat tighter to keep the cold off his body. Hurrying through the dimly lit street, the figure only paused to check over his shoulder. The moon shown faintly through the cloud cover, revealing the shadowy man moved briskly through the cold night. Suddenly coming to a sharp halt under one of the street lights, the man turned and looked behind him, searching the dark rain. With a short nod to himself in satisfaction that he had not been followed, the man continued down the road a little further until he came to a narrow alley with a short, stubby door at the far end. Turning off the street and walking down the alley, the man worked his way past half-full trash cans and broken beer bottles to the other end of the alley and the door. Pulling a set of keys out of his pocket, the man squinted in the dark as he fumbled around with his keys.
From a reader's POV - you've given me nothing to really give a damn about this person. What's with the short, stubby door? Doors are not short or stubby. And you're committing what a friend of mine who is a professional editor would call the worst possible sin in the writing world, you're telling me rather than showing me. F.I. "Turning into the alley, the man dodged half full trash cans, crushing the glass of half a dozen beer bottles under his feet as he made his way to the door at the far end of the alley. Keys chimed in his fumbling hands."
JMO
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Handing MSD some coffee...
Liger, The writing craft takes time--a ton of time, usually over years, and it takes commitment. It takes a thick skin and a thicker skull while maintaining a brain that takes what it needs to learn from a variety of sources with a variety of opinions without prejudice.
Write, the rest will come--if you commit to extreme hard work and set easy but steady increases of complexity in learning goals you WILL LEARN the craft. First and foremost write for yourself. If your goal is solely on getting published, getting fame and fortune... Well, crank down the ego by six million and start over.
Write because you must to satisfy something within you whether others read it or not. If you're writing to find a cushy career, then there are tons of easier ways to do it.
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Just write. Write crap, write nothing comprehensible, but above all, just write. I can't remember who it was, but they got in a run and typed around six full pages of LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA and then found his/her voice again. I can't for the life of me remember who it was though.
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Just write. Write crap, write nothing comprehensible, but above all, just write. I can't remember who it was, but they got in a run and typed around six full pages of LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA and then found his/her voice again. I can't for the life of me remember who it was though.
I freaking wish this could work for SWMBO and her professional papers; I'd get lucky /far/ more often.
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SWMBO?
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Do I need to get you a Rumpole collection?
She Who Must Be Obeyed.
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Handing MSD some coffee...
*sips coffee* Sorry if I was too brusque, but Liger asked for help and advice. I don't think anyone gets any better by being told "go ahead and write crap" without being shown *how* to improve. It's hard to ask for help, so I try to at least honor the person's courage with whatever worthwhile suggestions I can offer.
Perhaps it's just my own pet peeve about asking for critiques and getting "it's good." with milque toast smiles. If I ask for your input, it's because I feel it could be better and can't figure out how to get there with my own POV, so I need your honesty. Patronizing or coddling someone who is trying to improve helps no one.
/Grumpy
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Do I need to get you a Rumpole collection?
She Who Must Be Obeyed.
Um...what exactly is a Rumpole collection?
roger on the SWMBO definition.
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Also; people whose "goal is to be widely read" don't sell novels. People who can write a decent book sell novels.
Plenty of people write unnecessarily long sentences when an extra period here and there would make the phrase easier to read without changing the meaning at all, nor significantly altering the flow of the language. They unnecessarily alienate a portion of their potential audience. Keeping that in consideration is not a bad thing. No one is saying that should be the foremost nor even a primary concern, but it ought to be considered.
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Rumpole:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpole_of_the_Bailey
Plenty of people write unnecessarily long sentences when an extra period here and there would make the phrase easier to read without changing the meaning at all, nor significantly altering the flow of the language. They unnecessarily alienate a portion of their potential audience. Keeping that in consideration is not a bad thing. No one is saying that should be the foremost nor even a primary concern, but it ought to be considered.
'without' applies to both clauses, no?
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I'm short on sleep, it makes me a grammar retard, but the point is still valid =)
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;)
It is a valid point.
I think the thread already has a valid counterpoint, also.
Thus: long sentences can set tone to values not available to short sentence users, those values of tone possibly being appreciated by the audiences that do not lose patience.
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*sips coffee* Sorry if I was too brusque, but Liger asked for help and advice. I don't think anyone gets any better by being told "go ahead and write crap" without being shown *how* to improve. It's hard to ask for help, so I try to at least honor the person's courage with whatever worthwhile suggestions I can offer.
Perhaps it's just my own pet peeve about asking for critiques and getting "it's good." with milque toast smiles. If I ask for your input, it's because I feel it could be better and can't figure out how to get there with my own POV, so I need your honesty. Patronizing or coddling someone who is trying to improve helps no one.
/Grumpy
S'not just your pet peeve; it's one of my biggest ones and why I don't share my writing. I've gotten variations of "this is good" and "can't wait to read more" instead of anything constructive. Meant to come back to this thread and got sidetracked.
Going back to this:
Here is a sample of the prologue,
The rain fell in a soft patter around a tall, shadowy figure as he pulled his coat tighter to keep the cold off his body. Hurrying through the dimly lit street, the figure only paused to check over his shoulder. The moon shown faintly through the cloud cover, revealing the shadowy man moved briskly through the cold night. Suddenly coming to a sharp halt under one of the street lights, the man turned and looked behind him, searching the dark rain. With a short nod to himself in satisfaction that he had not been followed, the man continued down the road a little further until he came to a narrow alley with a short, stubby door at the far end. Turning off the street and walking down the alley, the man worked his way past half-full trash cans and broken beer bottles to the other end of the alley and the door. Pulling a set of keys out of his pocket, the man squinted in the dark as he fumbled around with his keys.
I agree with the telling, and that you don't give much of anything that makes me want to really keep reading. With the sentence structure, I meant varying it is a good thing to indicate pacing. Also, you use a lot of adverbs (-ly words), and more often than not, those can be cut without changing the meaning of the sentence. Some of the wording could also be condensed, like "With a short nod to himself in satisfaction that he had not been followed" could be changed to "Nodding in satisfaction that he hadn't been followed," which also flows a bit better. Unless you're wanting it to come across as stilted. And these are my opinions, other people might say differently.
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S'not just your pet peeve; it's one of my biggest ones
Thank you, Starbeam. I was beginning to think I was just coming across as bitchy.
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Thank you, Starbeam. I was beginning to think I was just coming across as bitchy.
Not bitchy; perhaps a bit tangential.
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Well, I AM the Queen of Thread Highjack. :D
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*bows to the threadjacker*
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*passes a box of chocolates to MSD* Hey, bitchy is my middle name. Don't knock it. Anyway, can we get Michael A Stackpole to run a genre writer's workshop before or after Tuscon? Hoping there are plenty of author writing sessions there during. Still have your signed book bag by the way.
My pet peeve? Giving a nice critique and not getting one back... I need to ramp up the inner bitch!
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Thanks MSD for saying your honest opinion. I'm not gonna lie and say hearing your writing is boring and holds little interest is fun, but I need to hear those things so I can improve. And yeah I would rather have people tell it to me striaght than say they thought it was good and lie to my face.
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Thanks MSD for saying your honest opinion. I'm not gonna lie and say hearing your writing is boring and holds little interest is fun, but I need to hear those things so I can improve. And yeah I would rather have people tell it to me striaght than say they thought it was good and lie to my face.
This is where choosing your test readers gets critical.
It's not really very hard to write something that would be -truly-OMG-gripping-whirling-in-spin-cycle- to some while boring others to tears.
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Thanks MSD for saying your honest opinion. I'm not gonna lie and say hearing your writing is boring and holds little interest is fun, but I need to hear those things so I can improve. And yeah I would rather have people tell it to me striaght than say they thought it was good and lie to my face.
You're welcome, and try to resist the urge to add more into what I (or anybody) said than what I (or anybody) actually says.
I would never say "your writing is boring and holds little interest." That would just be rude and unhelpful. I will, however, tell you specifically what is missing that if you put it in, might make it ;) less boring and uninteresting ;) :D.
To eleborate a little bit, when I said "you've given me nothing to really give a damn about this person," it's because that's how you hook a reader. A good writer makes the character attach itself to the reader's mind right out of the gate. (Hello! Harry Dresden, Wizard, I'm in the phone book.) Doesn't matter if the reader loves the character or hates it (sometimes hate is even better to establish. Can you say Morgan??), if you don't hook your reader like a fish, hard and fast, they'll nibble and escape.
And sometimes being able to do that comes in the second, third, or even fifty-third drafts. Once the character reveals itself to YOU, you can go back and insert the little hints and clues that are the hook for the reader. Good writing is work, but I think you've got the basic talent necessary to build a skill - IF you're persistent and can assimilate feedback without making it a personal judgement of your self-worth. It's just guidance. Just suggestions. And 75% of it is likely to be crap, so take what works and let the rest fly!
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I think it's one of those unhappy mediums. Some people look for the encouragement to keep going while others legitimately want a good critique. Sometimes the translation gets lost between the writer and reader. Other times they just don't want to hurt anybody's feelings.
Writing crap (not saying this is crap work) for the sake of continuing a story is fine, since you're going to go back and edit anyway. The important part is to get it all down on paper so you have a document to work with.
Critiquing someone on their writing style before a work is finished is fine too. By reminding them about certain phrasings to avoid or employ you can shape their future writing so it requires less editing. (AKA Nipping it in the bud)
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Whenever I critique someone's work I try to be as honest as possible. If something sounds awkward or doesn't work, I'll say so. Otherwise, I'm not doing the writer any good. But I try to be very gentle and use phrases like, "You might want to look at this..." or "I felt like this scene could've been improved by..."
I've noticed that some people tend to be very blunt when reviewing other's work. I'm not convinced that saying "I really didn't care one way or another whether this character lives or dies" is any more effective than saying, "I had troubles empathizing with this character."
I also try to find something good to comment on. If a writer is doing something that does work, I want to point it out to them. Even if I thought the work sucked, I'll find the very best (or least awful) thing I can and show some encouragement.
Overall my critiques tend to be around 75-85% commentary on things I think need improvement. The rest as praise for things that worked. I don't put a conscious effort into this ratio but by in large it just tends to work out that way. If I think a work is pretty good then I tend to get pickier. If a writer's doing good things, I try to push them to be even better in a constructive way.