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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tharios on April 30, 2010, 09:25:32 PM
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I've been working on a character concept that utilizes the Emissary of Power template. Originally, I'd intended to additionally take Inhuman Speed, Strength, and Recovery, and leave it at that with a couple of stunts for good measure.
Then I found Modular Abilities. After reading it, I decided that it suited my desires more aptly, and set about incorporating it into my character instead. So, -1 for Marked by Power, a point pool of 6 for Modular Abilities, and the -2 "fee" for Modular Abilities, leaves me with 1 point of Refresh. That's ok for me, and I don't mind.
My problem is this, I planned to restrict my ability selections to only Speed, Strength and Recovery. Upon thinking about it...that has the potential to make a character ridiculously powerful with only that 6 point pool. I can have Inhuman for each, or an Inhuman and a Supernatural...or go full-blown Mythic. And all it seems to require is that I take a full action to do so. And this is under my own self-imposed restrictions...the power normally allows anything at all to be chosen from Creature Features, a few Minor Abilities, Speed, Strength, and Toughness. That's quite the buffet...to be changed in any way I see fit within the confines of my total point pool...for no more effort than a full action.
Have I missed something somewhere in the books? Is there some kind of payment required to activate powers or such? The expenditure of a fate point maybe (though that seems a tad steep)? Has this power already been altered and I need to look at the errata for it instead?
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well, unless your character concept is something weird, you have to use some kind of shape-shifting to put you in a form that can use the modular abilities. So if you want your modular abilities to give you lots of strength and toughness, you'd need to turn into something that would have those things, and if you want modular abilities to let you fly, you need to turn into something that can fly.
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Yeah, but it's not hard to find concepts that allow it sans shapeshiting.
The real limit is that you just spent 8 Refresh on it. It should be ridiculous, for the same price you could have Physical Immunity with a +0 Catch and be basically invulnerable. Or be a Full Wizard with a level of Refinement, and toss off 7 or 8 shift Evocation. Or be a half-Troll with Supernatural Strength, Inhuman Toughness, Supernatural Recovery, Claws, and a +3 Catch, and do +6 Stress a hit and be tough as hell.
You paid for the power, feel free to use it. And the switching being a Full Action is actually quite meaningful, for practical purposes it slots you into maybe one change in ability selection per combat, so your versatility isn't quite as cool as it could be.
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Just my personal preference, but I'd definitely require any PC to have shape-shifting abilities to use their modular abilities. Physical immunity is nice, but compared to the ability to redefine your character to fit any situation on the fly just blows everything else out of the water. Versatility > Power
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Just my personal preference, but I'd definitely require any PC to have shape-shifting abilities to use their modular abilities. Physical immunity is nice, but compared to the ability to redefine your character to fit any situation on the fly just blows everything else out of the water. Versatility > Power
What about a Physical Adept style mage, who uses magic to jack up whatever physical abilities they choose? That's a simple and easy one. Or, as suggested in another thread, a guy who internalizes elemental energy giving him abilities based on the element he's channeling.
Both of those are way too cool to disallow, IMO.
And a full Wizard is probably more versatile than this guy, honestly. Alot more so, outside combat. In combat, still a bit more so, though it costs in terms of Mental Stress.
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List of things you can do for eight points of modular abilities:
- Give yourself the ability to scale any surface, make yourself small and hard to detect, and so fast that no one can catch you
- Give yourself the ability to lift cars casually enough to probably turn them into thrown weapons
- Give yourself physical immunity with a +2 catch
- fly, along with your choice of another 5 points of abilities
and thats just off the top of my head. Spellcasting can do some things better than this, but it has no where near the versatility, and comes with all kinds of risks and costs that modular abilities doesn't.
Both of those character ideas are too cool to disallow, but I'd model it differently than just giving them modular abilities and nothing else. I'd probably make a custom -2/-3 refresh power that lets them use modular abilities in conjunction with it.
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See, I have no problems with any of that. A Wizard can probably do the first (briefly) with Evocation, the second casually with it, and the fourth with a bit of effort (maybe requiring Thaumaturgy...though not a whole lot of it). And flying's not all that cool, honestly. And as for the third:
- Give yourself physical immunity with a +2 catch
If it helps, according to iago, unless you always have the same Catch (and people can thus research it), you don't get points for it in this circumstance. So to do this you need to have a legitimate weakness you MUST apply to all your Toughness powers.
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If it helps, according to iago, unless you always have the same Catch (and people can thus research it), you don't get points for it in this circumstance. So to do this you need to have a legitimate weakness you MUST apply to all your Toughness powers.
Oh, I'm aware of that. I'd define a catch at character creation that affected all of my toughness abilities.
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To continue my argument:
A Wizard can also find you or kill you with only a bit of hair or your name, summon demons from the Nevernever, Ward his home, and do a hundred other things the Modular Abilities guy can't.
Does the Modular Abilities guy have an advantage in a fight? Probably, but then, all 8 of his points went there (or at least to immedkate physical action), didn't they? Maybe a better comparison would be a Focused Practicioner with Evocation and 5 levels of Refinement...
That's around 10 Shift Evocations, when you do the math...
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I'm curious how you would do those first two with evocation.
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I'm curious how you would do those first two with evocation.
The first? A Veil (8 shifts!) followed by a Spirit or Air maneuver (ditto) to fly up the building, probably. Harry reccomends not tossing yourself around with Evocation, but it's definitely doable if you're good enough. I'd say 8 shifts is good enough. Yeah, it takes two actions, but so does Modular Ability guy's stuff (one to have the powers, a second to scale the building).
The second is just a (high level) Spirit or Air attack using the otherwise useless "There's a Car" Aspect. Look at Harry and Cowl in Dead Beat for an example.
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I actually got to flip a car in a game. Some gang members working for the ghoul NPC in Nevermore were pulling up in a black caddy to shoot at Me and Vastolo, I flipped their car with a 7 shift spirit evocation. Did 2 stress to everyone in the car. It was pretty sweet.
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Lenny and Fred commented on Modular Abilities over here...
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/message/17309 (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/message/17309)
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but you see, lifting a car is at least an 8 shift effect on its own, and using as a thrown weapon would add another 6 shifts to the effect. You aren't doing that with an evocation without taking major damage yourself. And this is just the flashiest use of the mythic strength ability.
An eight shift Veil alone is either going to be the kind of thing your wizard is built to do, or it will cost enough mental stress to not make it worth it. Then doing a maneuver to lift yourself is going to cost you more stress. And even then, its a one round, poorly controlled effect. The modular abilities guy can spend one turn activating his abilities, and can then spend as many actions as he likes doing what he wants. He is infinitely more useful in a heist, or for just being sneaky.
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but you see, lifting a car is at least an 8 shift effect on its own, and using as a thrown weapon would add another 6 shifts to the effect. You aren't doing that with an evocation without taking major damage yourself. And this is just the flashiest use of the mythic strength ability.
No. That's not how it should or does work, look at the Grasping Branches spell on p. 294. That's how you throw a car at someone and have it make system sense. Or just treat it as a normal Evocation attack. Rememer, the goal of your action is determined first, then you decide how to use mechanics to achieve that, and the goal is just an Evocation attack with a cool special effect.
An eight shift Veil alone is either going to be the kind of thing your wizard is built to do, or it will cost enough mental stress to not make it worth it. Then doing a maneuver to lift yourself is going to cost you more stress. And even then, its a one round, poorly controlled effect. The modular abilities guy can spend one turn activating his abilities, and can then spend as many actions as he likes doing what he wants. He is infinitely more useful in a heist, or for just being sneaky.
Well, the character I was envisioning has Control and Power 8 for all Spirit Evocations (he's a Spirit Evocation specialist)...so 1 Stress for each of the two effects. And bear in mind that the Veil lasts as long as a Stealth check would. So his Stealth is likely actually better than the Modular Ability guy (who gets his normal Stealth rating +4), though his maneuverability is admittedly somewhat worse. Still, he's about equally useful since he can veil the group as easily as himself.
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There is a difference between tagging a car aspect to make your spell have a cool special effect, and treating a car like a freaking paperweight.
Yes, the wizard is about as useful as the modular abilities guy in that situation. But the modular abilities guy can change what he is good at in a moments notice, and the wizard can't. And how the heck do you get 8 control and power in all spirit evocations for the level of refresh we are talking about?
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First, on a general note: the Wizard's more useful while he lasts because, frankly, the Modular Ability guy doesn't have huge Specialty and Foci bonuses on all his actions like the Wizard. Now the Wizard runs out of juice quicker but an 8 to attack with Weapon 8 is a bit better than the max 5 Modular Ability guy can have to attack with what...Weapon 11? Max? If you assume the car still counts as Weapon 5 if thrown? On the other hand, he doesn't last forever, he'll run out of Mental Stress after a while. I'm not saying a Wizard is flat-out better than the Modular Ability guy, just on par.
There is a difference between tagging a car aspect to make your spell have a cool special effect, and treating a car like a freaking paperweight.
In terms of how useful it is? Not really.
Yes, the wizard is about as useful as the modular abilities guy in that situation. But the modular abilities guy can change what he is good at in a moments notice, and the wizard can't.
See above, as long as his Mental Stress lasts, he's good at everything he can justify with magic. And Spirit justifies a whole lot.
And how the heck do you get 8 control and power in all spirit evocations for the level of refresh we are talking about?
Simple:
Superb Conviction and Discipline.
Evocation [-3]
Thaumaturgy [-3]
Refinement [-2]
The Sight [-1]-Note: The guy in question has Marked By Power, I figure this is in the same category of uselessness.
Evocation Specializations: Elements (Air, Water, Spirit); Power (Spirit +1), Control (Spirit +2)
Focus Items:
Shield Glove [+2 Defensive Power, +1 Defensive Control for Spirit]
Striking Glove [+2 Offensive Power, +1 Offensive Control for Spirit]
He's a specialist, but not at all inappropriate as a PC (assuming a good background, anyway).
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COST POWERS
-3 Thaumaturgy
-3 Evocation (Spirit)
-1 The Sight
-0 Soulgaze
-2 Refinement
Evocation Specializations:
Control (Spirit +2) Power (Spirit +1)
Thaumaturgy Specializations:
Veils (Complexity +1)
Focus Items: 6 Focus Item Slots
Control Spirit Focus (+3 D Control) 3 Slots
Power Spirit Focus (+3 D Power) 3 Slots
Rank Skills
5 Conviction
4 Discipline, Lore, Endurance
3 Alertness, Athletics, Guns
2 Presence, Empathy, Rapport
1 Deceit, Intimidation, Contacts
9 Shifts of Control and Power for Defensive spirit evocations, 6 for Offensive Spirit Evocations.
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And how the heck do you get 8 control and power in all spirit evocations for the level of refresh we are talking about?
With one Thaumaturgy Refinement in Crafting you could have a +2 Foci bonus. A single slot Foci could then have a +3 bonus. With Superb Conviction or Discipline you could have +8 in Power or Control, or both.
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Cool. I'm probably going to just agree to disagree about the effectiveness of modular abilities.
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Focus Items:
Spirit Focus (+3 O/D Control, +3 O/D Power, 4 Slots)
I don't think this is kosher as a single focus. The total bonus on a focus is limited by your Lore. You have a total of +12 bonuses!
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Cool. I'm probably going to just agree to disagree about the effectiveness of modular abilities.
Works for me. 8)
My final word on the subject: I'm not really arguing that Modular Abilities aren't powerful...just that they're not more powerful than some equivalent cost options.
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I don't think this is kosher as a single focus. The total bonus on a focus is limited by your Lore. You have a total of +12 bonuses!
Yeah, looks like you are right, break it into 4 items then and you should be golden.
I find it sort of disconcerting that Luminos asked how to get 8 shift spirit evocations and then 2 people almost fully statted out a character within the time it took me to do it.
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Yeah, looks like you are right, break it into 4 items then and you should be golden.
I find it sort of disconcerting that Luminos asked how to get 8 shift spirit evocations and then 2 people almost fully statted out a character within the time it took me to do it.
Great minds stat alike. :D
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With one Thaumaturgy Refinement in Crafting you could have a +2 Foci bonus. A single slot Foci could then have a +3 bonus. With Superb Conviction or Discipline you could have +8 in Power or Control, or both.
This isn't how a Focus Specialization works. Check out p. 280, specifically the paragraph on them:
"Alternatively, a crafting specialization may be applied to increase the limit on how many bonuses may be placed on a single focus item (a focus specialization)."
Emphasis mine. It doesn't increase the Focus item's actual bonus per slot, just how many slots you can put into one item. So your version doesn't work. Sorry. :(
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That means I wont be bothering with Focus Specialization ever, :D. I dont think its worth it.
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This isn't how a Focus Specialization works. Check out p. 280, specifically the paragraph on them:
Damn! I totally misread that. Thanks.
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That means I wont be bothering with Focus Specialization ever, :D. I dont think its worth it.
Me, either. But I think anything else would be in very real danger of making it too good.
Damn! I totally misread that. Thanks.
No problem. I was like "Wait...I don't remember that. I better go look it up and then edit my characters..." and found the sentence I quoted.
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The only way I think it would be worth it if it let you make more powerful smaller foci, making it harder for supernaturals to recognize them as a threat, but this interpretation stretches it a bit far, I think.
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The only way I think it would be worth it if it let you make more powerful smaller foci, making it harder for supernaturals to recognize them as a threat, but this interpretation stretches it a bit far, I think.
Actually, that seems okay to me. Otherwise it seems like a totally useless specialization.
But maybe my point of view is a little skewed because my favourite toy was just taken away. :(
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Sorry for the delay in my participation. Thanks for all the feedback.
I talked it over with my GM, and he seems to think it fits in my concept if we modify it a tad, which has been done. He also just plain liked the idea of the unexpected potential badassery (to quote someone whose name I don't remember) I could whip out on the occasional big-leaguer. He figures for 8 total refresh just for that power, when I'm going to intentionally limit myself to only Strength, Speed, and Recovery, it's fair. He also pointed out that a lot can happen in a single round, so taking a full action isn't always going to be smart. We also decided I'll have a permanent catch of Cold Iron anytime I use Recovery, which will apply to all stress and consequences inflicted by it regardless of when I use the power.
Means a bit of extra bookwork for me, but I don't mind it.
The comments from Fred I found at that link were pretty helpful, thanks Biff.
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Cool. Glad that worked out for you.
Remember that the Catch actually reduces the point cost of powers if it's consistent, so Mythic Toughness would actually only be 3 of your 6 points.
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If Mythic level attributes aren't going to be allowed normally, I don't see why they'd be fair game for Modular Abilities. You're still buying them, just for temporary use.
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If Mythic level attributes aren't going to be allowed normally, I don't see why they'd be fair game for Modular Abilities. You're still buying them, just for temporary use.
In all fairness, you're technically right. But they're fair game anyway, just advised against.
Worst-case scenario though, I just don't ever use mythic-level versions. I'd just bounce between having one at -4 and one at -2...or all three at -2...or maybe even something else if it suits the character.
I'm not sure if you actually meant it this way, but you don't pick a list of abilities you have access to when you take Modular Abilities...just set a total point pool for the maximum allotment you want...and add two to the total for the cost. I'm merely choosing to artificially restrict myself to strength, speed, and recovery...instead of having access to all Creature Features, some Minor Abilities, and all of Strength, Speed, and Toughness. If that wasn't what you were implying, then ignore that whole bit.
Someone else mentioned transforming into a different animal or creature relevant to whichever power I'm using through my Modular Abilities being a requirement. That's not how it works. Modular Abilities means you only shapeshift the parts of yourself that need to do the job, and only so much as needed, and nothing else. Boosting my strength means my muscles might bulk up a bit...speed could mean they'd get much more toned...recovery probably means I just generally heal faster, perhaps increased metabolism at best. The only overt shapeshifting one gets from Modular Abilities is if you ever use claws or wings or the like. Modular Abilities itself doesn't allow you access to the other shapeshifting powers at all, and it has no Musts regarding taking other shapeshifting powers first.
Perhaps it should have a must of some kind though. Not sure what, but ah well.