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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Moriden on April 30, 2010, 09:20:07 PM
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Someone mentioned in another thread that in the dresdenverse emotions are essentially pure magic, or magic fuel if you would. this brought up something i thought about a long time ago when reading one of the earlier books. Pain can be used to power magic right? harry dose it a few times "channeling all his pain and rage" so how would you represent a magician with a syndrome like fibromyalgia, who is essentially in constant near crippling pain?
It seems like he would have a rather powerful wellspring of power to draw on, but i imagine it would be somewhat "tainted" drawing so much power from his own continual pain, and likely hatred.
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The way I look at it would be consequences, we already know you can take a mental consequence to represent the fact that you are loosing your cool and high on anger.
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that seems to "one shotish" to represent something that would always be there. for example if you said." play your in pain you can take that as a consequence to fuel your magic" once you've done that it cant be used again untill the consequence heals. but the pain would still thematically be there.
The more i think about it, the more i want to say to try and make it some form of sponsored magic. I would give you a boost for any magic that could be boosted by pain, but would also flavor your magic in the same way...
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You could take it as an aspect. Take a compel basically any time you do something, you'll have a huge pool of fate points, and could invoke it for almost anything (if your GM let you, of course).
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I think there are three ways to handle this,
- Take an aspect for your "emotion" and invoke it
- Take a mental consequence (2/4/6/8) for the emotion to boost your power
- Tag an existing consequence
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Harry has a "Not so subtle, still quick to anger" aspect. He can invoke "Still quick to anger" to increase the power of his offensive spells. However, the GM can also invoke it to cause Harry to lose control and do more damage than he wants to do... Of course Harry can chose to lose a fate point to avoid this, and in the context of the books I think Harry does this fairly often.
I think all wizards can use anger to fuel spell damage, but if they don't have the aspect inherently like Harry then the aspect has to be placed on them by someone else (massive taunting, torturing a loved one, etc.). Same with pain and other such strong negative emotions. Although they can probably also bring it up themselves with a consequence like biff describes.
On the other hand, Love, peace, and such emotions can probably be used for more positive magic, like healing magic.
BTW, the "Not so subtle" part can be invoked by the GM when Harry tries to do more subtle things, like veils, to decrease his chance of success or the potency of the veil after it succeeds.
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Can you tag aspects put on you by consequences? That seems like trying to game the system to me. First of all you would probably get the consequence by reducing a mental stress hit from spell casting, so you would get a benefit from it already, and then to tag it again (possibly for free?) to get another +2 boost... I dont know about that.
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Can you tag aspects put on you by consequences? That seems like trying to game the system to me. First of all you would probably get the consequence by reducing a mental stress hit from spell casting, so you would get a benefit from it already, and then to tag it again (possibly for free?) to get another +2 boost... I dont know about that.
You would have to justify the tag of the consequence just like when you invoke an aspect. If you took a severe "Splitting Headache" consequence from spell casting, I don't see how that could be justified as an emotional boost to you magic. I you took a severe "Smacked down by Dr. Evil" aspect from a previous conflict then, ya, you could totally justify that as you're angry and looking for payback.
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I've been wondering this myself somewhat, but I've not read all the magic rules yet so I don't know if it gets a mention or not. Looks like the answer is "not"...
For starters, personally I find the "my character has debilitating condition X so he can always draw on it for power!" idea is silly. If it's one of the character's aspects, expect to be compelled all the damn time to the point of uselessness. But anyway...
Consequences are one obvious route. You get hurt, scared, embarrassed or whatever and you can tag the consequence by saying "I draw on my fear for power" or any of the other ways Harry does it in the books.
Aspects placed by manoeuvres - sorry, manouvers - are the other clear method. Someone intimidates you, provokes you, smacks you literally or metaphorically across the face, hits you with the Lara Mega-Lust Bomb #1, whatever it is to put an aspect on you to their advantage and bam, you draw on the way that makes you feel to boost your magic. Another fine Harry trick.
Last option is to, I guess, place an aspect on yourself somehow. Since I can't imagine how or what you'd roll to make yourself angry or scared, and just saying "I'm angry now" and calling that an aspect is too easy, you could, say... make like a non-rolled declaration and spend a Fate Point to place "ANGRY!" on yourself. You get a (sort of) free tag (provided no one spots that you're angry and uses the free one first...) and you can boost your magic with it.
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Some very good ideas here , but my original question was how would you represent drawing power from persistent and constant pain, not a form of pain that is temporary.
The Aspect Idea could work, but that only comes up when you have fate pionts to spend. and/or your st feels like invoking you're "in horrible pain" aspect to give you fate points. certainly a viable solution but might not appeal to some players due to its more hit and miss aplications for something that thematically should more or less be "always on".
The Consequence Idea is if i understand it right, when you want to channel extra power you take a consequence and use the consequences numerical rating as a buff? like you would do with thaumaturgical spells or a death curse? definitely works for those times that harry "channeled all his pain and anger" taking a moderate or severe consequence "nothing left" but that doesn't really work with a pain that is persistent.
The Sponsored Magic idea I've been pondering would be something like kemlerian sponsored magic. it doesn't really come from an outside source, its just a specialized way of casting that taints your magic, and [in the form of debt compels] slowly changes the way your magic expresses and you think. in this case the fact that your always in pain would likely deaden your empathy to others at least a little, and channeling pain as the primary power behind your magic is definitely going to leave a lasting impression on your soul and mind, just like using any other form of sponsored magic or lawbreaking magic dose. Due to the fact that you have to inherently believe in the action and way that your using magic. you would have to accept that the crippling pain that your in is the source of much of your power and that pain is the source of strength. I can see a lot of ways that that would mess someone up mentally.
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For starters, personally I find the "my character has debilitating condition X so he can always draw on it for power!" idea is silly. If it's one of the character's aspects, expect to be compelled all the damn time to the point of uselessness. But anyway...
These conditions by there nature are crippling yes. at least one of your aspects should reflect that you have it regardless of how else its expressed. and the fact that your in near crippling amounts of pain should heavily impact your character. there's also the simple balancing factor that when/if your charecter ever finds a way to reduce or remove the pain[ and what sane person wouldn't be trying to ] all that extra power disappears.
I just got an idea while writeing that actually. we could potentially combine the mechanics of lawbreaking and sponsored magic in some ways. Use the debt compels from sponsored to represent the gradual shifts in behavior and the actions your now willing to do, that you previously thought you never would, and every x times you pull on the "pain magic" one of your aspects has to change to reflect that so much of your self image/source of power is wrapped up in pain.
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Some very good ideas here , but my original question was how would you represent drawing power from persistent and constant pain, not a form of pain that is temporary.
The only way to get a persistent bonus is through a stunt.
Stunts exist to provide guaranteed situational benefits.
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Some very good ideas here , but my original question was how would you represent drawing power from persistent and constant pain, not a form of pain that is temporary.
The Aspect Idea could work, but that only comes up when you have fate pionts to spend. and/or your st feels like invoking you're "in horrible pain" aspect to give you fate points. certainly a viable solution but might not appeal to some players due to its more hit and miss aplications for something that thematically should more or less be "always on".
Ahh, missed part of your original post, sorry.
I think I would allow only new, or temporarily greatly increased, pain to be invoked to power sorcery. So most of the time the constant pain can't be invoked because it is just part of the background pain of the persons life. They are "used" to it. So the only time they can invoke it is if the pain itself is invoked by something else, either an action of their own, or by taking physical stress. Once that happens they can invoke the pain aspect to power spells.
I don't know if all that makes sense, but I understand it. ;)
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I don't know if all that makes sense, but I understand it. Wink
So your saying that only emotions/pain above the norm should be able to fuel magic? Meaning that even if my base level of x emotion is two to three times that of a normal persons i still cant "tap into" it anymore then the normal person can. That makes a certain amount of sense. i would use christine? harrys brothers love interest to argue against it though. she is described in the early books as "to full of emotion" and that is why shes so prized as a chew toy, because her greater depth of emotion makes her energy "more potent" and possibly means theirs more of it.
The only way to get a persistent bonus is through a stunt
Didn't mean to say or imply otherwise. My preferred method as of the moment is to use some variant of sponsored magic which would definitely mean you'd have to pay for it. I'm just looking for other peoples ideas, and to bounce mine against the wall in such a way as to get other peoples feedback on them.
My current idea is something like -5 refresh though and that seems prohibitively expensive to me.
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Ok, how about this, lets give you a stunt called
Constant Pain [+1]
Your character is in constant, sometimes overwhelming pain. Take a -1 Penalty to any use of the Athletics skill. Add +1 to your refresh adjustment.
And another stunt called
Use the Pain
Whenever you are in pain, you may add +1 to any mental discipline rolls.
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oooo kinda an anti stunt. i like it. it should probably use the same rules as stunts[ only inverted] though. so it would have to be only -1 if it affects all aspects of athletics all of the time. same for the other, it would have to be only a +1
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oooo kinda an anti stunt. i like it. it should probably use the same rules as stunts[ only inverted] though. so it would have to be only -1 if it affects all aspects of athletics all of the time. same for the other, it would have to be only a +1
Done, though I should say that if you go with this implementation, or use this idea for other characters, you should be VERY careful about it. This reminds me too much of D&D 3.5's flaws from Unearthed Arcana, taking a flaw in an area you wont ever need to worry about (say -2 to melee attack rolls) in exchange for an extra feat for your wizard.
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I'm inclined to just wrap it into the larger bundle im toying with. when ive got some numbers im confident in ill post the package im looking at.
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Done, though I should say that if you go with this implementation, or use this idea for other characters, you should be VERY careful about it. This reminds me too much of D&D 3.5's flaws from Unearthed Arcana, taking a flaw in an area you wont ever need to worry about (say -2 to melee attack rolls) in exchange for an extra feat for your wizard.
Seconded. Athletics may be the only skill of universal enough applicability that this sort of thing is workable without being game-breaking. Well, maybe Alertness, too. I can't think of a third, though.
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I agree with the cautions above. In would only use a Flaw like this to modify a single stunt, take a penalty to one of the skill's trapping for a bigger bonus to another trapping of the same skill. Otherwise it sounds like a slippery slope.
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I agree with the cautions above. In would only use a Flaw like this to modify a single stunt, take a penalty to one of the skill's trapping for a bigger bonus to another trapping of the same skill. Otherwise it sounds like a slippery slope.
As long as it has a meanigfull impact on the charecter i dont see a problem with it , in this specific case since id just be baking it into a larger power anyway it should be fine.
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Interesting take on the mechanics. I think there might be something there. I'd look at Kimlerian Necromancy as another take on the Sponsored magic approach. You must have evocation or channeling before taking power X. Refresh would be relatively low, -1 or -2. Power X provides a bonus to power in these circumstances. You must have an aspect that references your source of near constant pain.
Pulling back from the mechanics however, I'd say that from a story/characterization point of view, the near constant pain that you're talking about can have many results. Sometimes it makes you angry, gives an emotional boost, etc. But constant pain can also be exhausting. And over time, the tiring effects of pain tend to overcome the motivating effects.
This points me toward an aspect approach. You can compel the constant pain to make the character unable to concentrate, or to become irritable when they want to be calm, or to just be unable to summon the energy to do something, because they've used up their emotional reserved fighting off the pain. Then again, during moments of great need, they can invoke the aspect to call on their ability to fight through pain, and boost to negative emotions that it provides, to power a spell, or just to ignore a little more pain for just a little bit longer.
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So your saying that only emotions/pain above the norm should be able to fuel magic? Meaning that even if my base level of x emotion is two to three times that of a normal persons i still cant "tap into" it anymore then the normal person can. That makes a certain amount of sense. i would use christine? harrys brothers love interest to argue against it though. she is described in the early books as "to full of emotion" and that is why shes so prized as a chew toy, because her greater depth of emotion makes her energy "more potent" and possibly means theirs more of it.
Although Christine is "full of emotion" something presumably still has to be taking place to bring forth her emotions. So that is not a "constant" situation, so it doesn't really relate to my point.
As to the concept of more potent emotions... Lets assume Christine has aspects of "heart on her sleeve" and another aspect of "Deeper than the deepest ocean". Raith's would be able to invoke both aspects on the same roll when feeding on her, giving them +4 to the feed roll, making it pretty much guaranteed they will get a huge amount of power from her. Therefore she is a potent prize for them. However, if Christine were a wizard she could use these same aspects to increase all sorts of things that benefit from positive emotions instead of negative.
Now, lets assume a wizard has "Quick to anger" and "Fury of the ages"... So he is in the same boat, but with anger instead of love. He would anger fast, and his anger would run strong and deep. So he could invoke 2 aspects when attacking out of anger. However, this could be used against him as well, allowing NPCs to get him so angry he kills innocents with magic if he isn't careful.
So basically taking multiple emotions that can power your wizard abilities makes for a lot of power, but also a MASSIVE weakness.
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Okay here is the first draft of "pain magic" I'm Currently calling it Sadicas, which i've blatantly stolen from CJ Carellas Witchcraft all rights are his yadda yadda.
Sadicas base -5 +1 for evocation and thaumaturgy. If you do not reliably have a source of pain add +1 to the cost of this quality, if you have a reliable source of pain and thus always have access to this then do not. Constant Pain counts as a source for this purpose so you can only gain the +1 from Constant Pain or from not always having access to this power. not both.
Cost: To Reliably draw power from pain and sacrifice you must already be a wizard or sorcerer of some stripe, well-versed in Evocation or Thaumaturgy (with at least some specialization in Biomancy or Psychomancy), and have Learned how to channel magical power from pain. Therefore this is available only as an upgrade to those abilities.
This power is much more then the occasional use of temporary pain or anger to fuel your magic, it is a complex and comprehensive understanding of how to use emotions, pain, suffering, and sacrifice. Theoretically any emotion could be substituted in for pain and you would have a similar form of sponsored magic, but as pain is much easier to come by then say love Sadicas is far more common, if you where going to adapt this power to another emotion the bonuses it provides would have to be changed to better reflect that concept.
Benefits:
Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288).In the same way that blood calls to blood, so to dose pain call to pain. If using pain as a power source on any spell intended to inflict stress or consequences add +2 to the power of that affect, you may also use evocations speeds and methods for any such spell as well as for any Spell that would logically gain strength from pain as a power source[This is up to your story teller, howver this form of magic is about as far from subtle or delicate as you can get, so generally any "brute force" type affect should qualify and anything finicky or delicate should not.] coloring such evocations with the agonizing Caress of pain and adding a +1 to the spells complexity threshold. It should be noted that you must find a source of such strong pain or suffering to draw on before being able to claim this benefit.
Downside:
Every three times [or so] that you Channel pain in such a way You must change one of your aspects To reflect that you draw so much of your power and self image from pain/Suffering. Once all of your Aspects have been changed such you do not need to keep changing them unless one changes to something else through the course of play and you continue to use Sadicas after such a change. This is in addition to the standard debt mechanics of sponsored magic. While there is no sentient force corrupting you all uses of magic require the magician to believe that that spell is Right, channeling pain in such a way leaves a mark on your soul forever changing who and what you are.
Upgrades
Constant Pain [+1]
Your character has Fibromyalgia or a similar condition that causes you constant, sometimes overwhelming pain. Take a -1 Penalty to any use of the Athletics skill. At least one of your aspects should reflect this state. This dose qualify as a "source of pain" for Sadicas and is one of the only ways to use such magic in a morally neutral way.
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I still think "I'm in constant pain so I can use that to power my magic" is not a good idea, but maybe that's just me.
Causing yourself injuries to invoke the consequence to power your magic, no problem. As in, "I draw my ritual knife across my arm and use the pain and blood as fuel for my Power!" is fine.
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Didn't realize you were intending to design a specific new power with this discussion. That changes everything because you aren't asking about the existing rules, but how to best create a new rule. Wish I had known.
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I still think "I'm in constant pain so I can use that to power my magic" is not a good idea, but maybe that's just me.
I'm in constant pain because I have "Barbed wire wrapped around my waist."
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I'm in constant pain because I have "Barbed wire wrapped around my waist."
sounds like intentionally giveing yourself a consequence to me.
Didn't realize you were intending to design a specific new power with this discussion. That changes everything because you aren't asking about the existing rules, but how to best create a new rule. Wish I had known.
Apologies, originally i was just bouncing ideas around then i got the idea for it as a form of sponsored magic, as i mentioned a few times. im currently viewing it as similar to useing a ley line, you need the strong concentration of "pain" to be there. if it is you can use it to enhance magic in z y z ways, but because the magic is inherently "destructive" it taints you similarly to how lawbreaking dose.
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sounds like intentionally giveing yourself a consequence to me.
"I draw my ritual knife across my arm..." would be inflicting a consequence. Barb wire wrapped around your body would by an aspect.
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depends on weather you always have it there or you just did it that one time i suppose.
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I'm in constant pain because I have "Barbed wire wrapped around my waist."
Yes, that's a consequence. The pain is a new 'emotion' that could be drawn on by tagging/invoking the consequence.
Anyway, why sponsored magic? Who/what is sponsoring it? What's the source of the power? Where do the debts "go" and who/what calls them in? Simply put, what's wrong with "TROUBLE: My painful, debilitating disease" - why create an entire 'field' of magic when one always present aspect will do the trick? Keep it simple.
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Anyway, why sponsored magic?
Because sponsored magic seems to be the cacth all term for any kind fo magic that draws power above or beyond the "base", Kemlerian necromancy, and ley lines are both forms of sponsored magic.
Who/what is sponsoring it?
As the precedent of kemlerian necromancy shows us sponsored magic isn't always about it actually being sponsored, its just magic that draws its power in a different or external way.
What's the source of the power?
As i attempted to express in the write up "this power is much more then the occasional use of temporary pain or anger to fuel your magic, it is a complex and comprehensive understanding of how to use emotions, pain, suffering, and sacrifice." In the same way that kemleran necromancy pulls directly on the power of death and "the darkness between the stars" Sadicas pulls directly from the power of agaony and suffering.
Where do the debts "go" and who/what calls them in?
Same way/place with kemlarien necromancy and ley lines, it doesn't go to any specific being they exist as a form of "taint" on the user that is just a natural response from powering your magic wit agony. as i explained in the write up "While there is no sentient force corrupting you all uses of magic require the magician to believe that that spell is Right, channeling pain in such a way leaves a mark on your soul forever changing who and what you are. "
Simply put, what's wrong with "TROUBLE: My painful, debilitating disease" - why create an entire 'field' of magic when one always present aspect will do the trick?
Several reasons, one having it as a trouble could certainly be a gold mine of fate points, if your story teller wants it to be, And it dose represent the pain you'd be in, but to invoke it you'd have to actually have fate points to tag it, and that seems far to hit and miss for me. Theirs definitely nothing stopping someone from taking it as a trouble and or an aspect and playing that way, the method works, for given variables of work, but to me it doesn't work well enough to represent the consistent nature that these kinds of conditions are. [ i myself have fibromyalgia and i wish it only came up as infrequently as " whenever the st feels like invoking it" Essentially its just not "always present" enough for what im looking for.
Secondly to get a consistent bonus we need to pay refresh for it, i don't have a problem with that so we then have to look at how we want to represent it. We could just take a variation of refinement that only applies in specific ways. but conceptionally that's the same thing as kemlarian necromancy so presumably that's the appropriate mechanic to use. Logically using this kind of magic should have a profound affect on a person and would be available to anyone that wanted to and knows how to draw power from pain, thus Sadicas as a flavor of sponsored magic, that taints you the more you use it, and a minor variation of it for those who draw pain from them selves instead of from torturing others.
Thirdly i don't really view this as creating a new field of magic, i view it as making numerical rules for something that should probably exist in the setting by using the precedents and mechanics available in the system
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depends on weather you always have it there or you just did it that one time i suppose.
The whole topic is about drawing on your constant pain to fuel magic; so ya, it would always be there. ;D
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Hmmmm... The difference between Sadicas and Kemmlerian necromancy, though, is that the necromancy draws on death everywhere for it's extra juice. I seriously doubt there's enough pain in a single person, however tortured and/or debilitated they are, to fuel magic to the same degree to justify modelling it as sponsored magic. Or... does Sadicas draw on all the world's pain?
This is Cenobite magic, isn't it :)
I wouldn't have this in my game. It's a bit too much like inventing a new power to justify extra powerfulness, it games it too much for me. Plus, it is so an evil power. No way you could learn it just to draw on your own special pain without someone teaching you via the nasty ways first.
But, you go have fun with it! :)
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While thinking about constant pain, I was suddenly reminded of Episode III when the Emperor told Darth Vader that he had killed Padmé. I bet that added some fuel to his fire!
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Hmmmm... The difference between Sadicas and Kemmlerian necromancy, though, is that the necromancy draws on death everywhere for it's extra juice. I seriously doubt there's enough pain in a single person, however tortured and/or debilitated they are, to fuel magic to the same degree to justify modelling it as sponsored magic. Or... does Sadicas draw on all the world's pain?
ill just paraphrase harry when he said there more magic in a childs first laugh then yadda yadda.
what i ended up doing was 2 separate things here, one i wrote up a form of sponsored magic that draws power from pain similarly to how kemlarian necromancy is powered by "death". I'm definitly not argueing that you should allow this into your game, its at least as dark as kemlarien magic if powered by other peoples pains, Also note the prerequisites i gave it, a specialization in either biomancy or psychomancy, two more or less forbidden areas. Im honestly not sure weather or not id even allow it into the game, i suspect that id require at least as good a story for this as i would for hellfire, kemlarian, or soulfire.
two i then added a stunt allowing a person to pervert that magic by only using there own pain similarly to how kemlarian necromancy was used to save some guys life in one of the books. The only legitimate way i can see something like this devoling without haveing been taught by someone seriously fed in the head, is if the charecter started of as a focused talent, and iether acquired a painfully debiliting disease or was born with one. Focused practitioners are desciribed as Intuitively able to understand how there magic works. so a fc biomantic magician would intuitively understand how to alter his/other peoples bodies and could at least thereticaly use tht knowledge to learn to tap into the energy created by his pain.
Or... does Sadicas draw on all the world's pain?
It could potentially, if you where using a big enough ritual to gather that much energy, but the default assumption i'm going with is that you're "gathering" enough pain to be comparable to torturing a human being whenever you use this power. if you happen to have fibro, well your more or less always in that amount of pain, if your not then you've got to find some poor sap to torture. wrapping barbed wire around your self or carving into your flesh in a ritual manner would both really only be enough for one spell each.
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I remain steadfastly unconvinced. Which is totally fine :)
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Fair enough, not really trying to convince you, just explain my reasoning and get feadback on if im makeing sense/ its balanced for its refresh cost.