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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bestial warlust on April 30, 2010, 04:35:26 PM

Title: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: bestial warlust on April 30, 2010, 04:35:26 PM
So have these courts been completely absorbed by the other courts? I'm blanking on them being mentioned in the novels. I have a player that wants to play a Knight of the Faerie Court and I was thinking about it being one of these courts trying to make a comeback
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 30, 2010, 04:39:28 PM
By default, they don't exist and quite possibly never did. Winter and Summer are it. According to the novels thus far, anyway.

However, they're mentioned many times in the game books as alternate possibilities for a Knight's patron (along with the Erlking and Santa Claus), so go with it. You'll need to make up what they're like, but go for it.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Crypt King on April 30, 2010, 04:56:33 PM
They weren't mentioned in the novels at all, pretty much following the traditional Summer/Winter courts of folklore.

Ever since I read the idea of a Autumn court I've had this concept brewing, with a Halloween theme, missing lady, all that stuff.  Too bad I'll be stuck running the game.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: arentol on April 30, 2010, 05:23:13 PM
I would guess that they have never existed, and never will in terms of the actual dresdenverse, but I also don't see a major problem with someone creating and using them in their version of the dresdenverse (though I wouldn't want to).


It is pretty standard in most faerie related stories to have the Seelie and Unseelie, with the Seelie being the "good" side, for certain values of good, and the Unseelie being the "evil" side, for certain values of evil. These sides are not always depicted as "Courts" and/or sometimes there are multiple separate courts that are on each side. Jim has just chosen to use two courts and call them Summer and Winter, Seelie and Unseelie, respectively, which is fine by me. Makes it way simpler.

Aside from these two sides (Seelie and Unseelie) there is rarely anything else other than straight up wild stuff and maybe some minor powers that are semi-independent, or very major powers that just kind of ignore the Seelie and Unseelie (because they don't care) and are ignored in return because it is not worth the effort of bothering with them. These are the sorts of powers, both the minor and major ones, that the protaganist might turn to for assistance if they are in trouble with the Seelie or Unseelie. However, in the process they often gain a major debt that complicates their lives for a long time to come.

So in most faerieverses anyone else that sets up a "court" is going to probably get crushed in a seconds by Seelie and Unseelie, mostly based on who gets there first. The only way to survive would be to be powerful enough that neither side can afford to destroy you on their own, but even then they will probably just band together to destroy the upstart, while also trying to gain advantage against each other.


So I personally do not like the idea of autumn and spring courts, and if I were GM I wouldn't allow the players to "create" them, and if I were a player I would argue against other players being allowed to create them. However, I would allow or suggest someone to be beholden to another power in the Nevernever, which they could make up themselves. This would give the player a LOT of options, while also being much simpler to manage and fit into the universe. A single powerful entity is a LOT less complicated than an entire court after all. What would be even better would be if they thought they were beholden to a major power, but it turns out it is fairly minor, just powerful enough not to be bothered, but weak enough that when the PC tries to use their "status" with this power to intimidate someone like the Summer Knight they get laughed out of the room... Suddenly that "deal" they struck doesn't seem so hot after all, but it is too late now!
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Llayne on April 30, 2010, 06:29:37 PM
I'm actually playing a Changeling associated with the Autumn Court right now. It is a different dynamic because it is a minor power in that universe, and I hope as a player that I have a chance to help it grow. In my version they were ousted from their place in the 'cycle' thousands of years ago, so it makes more sense that there are no/few stories of them.

The Nevernever isn't cut in two, one half belonging to Mab and the other to Titiana. There are vast areas of it that they do not hold dominion. Plenty of space even for the multitude of things that aren't fae.

If it's something the player wants to do there's no reason not to. Unlike some other games, this isn't one where the GM sits around detailing his universe and his campaign, and then sits the players down and says, "This is what you can be and this is what you can't." The players 'should' be helping shape the city and campaign from the very start.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Valarian on April 30, 2010, 06:39:49 PM
The balance for four courts would be different to the two Court model in Jim Butcher's books. Currently, the crossover periods are at the Equinoxes (Ostara and Mabon), with the height of Summer and Winter's powers being at the Solstices (Samhradh and Yule). With four courts, you shift the crossover periods to the cross-quarter festivals of Beltane, Lughnasadh, Samhain and Imbolc. The heights of power include the Equinoxes as well as the Solstices. I think it weakens Summer and Winter slightly as they have to share power with Autumn and Spring. Unless, of course, these are minor Courts which switch in to the power or the major Courts at the time of the Equinoxes. This could explain why Summer is strongest at the time of Samhradh (midsummer), as Titania has both Spring and Autumn Courts in her power at that point. At Yule (midwinter), Mab has control over both of the minor courts.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Llayne on April 30, 2010, 06:43:23 PM
They change the 'power' over at midsummer and midwinter. At midsummer, at the height of Summers power, they shift 'control' or whatever over to winter. In a 4 court example, they would shift it to Autumn instead, who would in turn shift it to Winter at the fall equinox. (the height of Autumn's power.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Buscadera on April 30, 2010, 06:45:39 PM
The way I envisioned it a while back when the Autumn Court was mentioned on the DFRPG website, was that the Spring and Autumn Courts were minor courts associated with Summer and Winter respectively. I also imagined them being run by Spring and Autumn Kings, their power on par with that of the Erlking but not quite at the level of Mab or Titania.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Llayne on April 30, 2010, 06:56:03 PM
The book says he's a possible counterpart to the Queens, so I think his power level is in question.

That being said, another view is that the Erlking is Autumn, since it mentions Autumn storms in his description, or the discription for the wild hunt. That would leave Sprink unaccounted for. There are a number of different ways you could go if that was the sort of thing that interested you.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: TheMouse on April 30, 2010, 07:32:54 PM
It could be that in the distant past, Summer and Winter took the power of Spring and Autumn. So while Spring and Autumn might remain behind, their influence on the world is minimal. No portion of the year belongs to them, perhaps having been sacrificed on a certain stone.

Without that influence, fewer Fae align themselves with those courts. This creates a spiral wherein Spring and Autumn lose more power, become less worth joining, causing them to lose yet more power, etc. If things continue, all their remaining influence will be totally absorbed by Summer and Winter.

Perhaps all that remains is a collection of Queens, some Knights, and a small handful of Sidhe who refuse to change allegiance. The Mothers have long since become quiescent. The Queens are largely mad, even by the standards of the Fae. Perhaps only the Ladies retain their potential, as they personify the possibility that these two Courts will once again rise to power.

Or something. This is mostly my thoughts regarding the game I'll eventually start.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: arentol on April 30, 2010, 07:33:28 PM
Quote from: Llayne on April 30, 2010, 06:29:37 PM
The Nevernever isn't cut in two, one half belonging to Mab and the other to Titiana. There are vast areas of it that they do not hold dominion. Plenty of space even for the multitude of things that aren't fae.

Yup, that is why I mentioned the wild stuff, and the other minor and major powers aside from the courts. It is also why I think that using Autumn or Spring courts for a character concept is unnecessarily complex (could add a lot of work figuring out how these courts interact with the dominant courts), and kind of a cop-out because it is so obvious. An imaginative player should be able to come up with something WAY better. Perhaps the dwarfs and giants of norse legend exist somewhere in Nevernever but have removed themselves from interaction with the mortal world. The player is a half-dwarf that happened across the rainbow bridge and crossed into earth and became fascinated with mortal technology. Now he runs a pawn/repair shop where he modifies modern and antique items into magical objects of great power.

Quote
If it's something the player wants to do there's no reason not to. Unlike some other games, this isn't one where the GM sits around detailing his universe and his campaign, and then sits the players down and says, "This is what you can be and this is what you can't." The players 'should' be helping shape the city and campaign from the very start.

I agree that players should help shape the campaign, especially right at the start. I think I made a mistake earlier in my wording. I said I wouldn't "allow" the autumn or spring courts if I was GM, but that isn't true. As a GM I would discourage players from introducing the autumn or spring courts because to me those things just don't fit into the dresdenverse as I see it after reading all the books. But I would not disallow it. If this happened though I would REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that the character concept was unique, imaginative, and inspiring to me as the GM. Then I would probably actually be glad they suggested it and would be totally on board.... But it better be a DANG good and imaginative character, not just the ridiculously obvious "Spring/Autumn Knight", or a fairly generic Scion of the Autumn Queen kind of thing.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: neko128 on April 30, 2010, 07:41:20 PM
Well, I think the earlier comment is the most important one here - there's actually a discussion in Summer Knight (
(click to show/hide)
):

"The Nevernever is a big place.  In fact, it's the biggest place.  The Nevernever is what the wizards call the entirety of the realm of spirit.  It isn't a physical place, with geography and weather patterns and so on.  it's a shadow world, a magical realm, and its substance is as mutable as thought...it contains within it just about any kind of spirit realm you can imagine, somewhere.  Heaven, Hell, Olympus, Elysium, Tartarus, Gehenna - you name it, and it's in the Nevernever somewhere.  In theory, at any rate.

The parts of the Nevernever closest to the mortal world are almost completely controlled by the Sidhe.  This part of the spirit realm is called Faerie..."

So this establishes that the Faerie courts live in a small, small corner of the spirit realms - the corner touching the mortal realm, where there's a lot of crossover and interaction.  However, it also establishes that the rest of the Nevernever is infinite.

So the idea of a former Autumn/Spring court - or even the vague remnants of one - doesn't contradict the cycle-as-written as long as they're not part of it.  Four real possibilities come to mind:

Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: bestial warlust on April 30, 2010, 07:48:48 PM
Some good ideas here thanks. It's more trying to figure out how to use that template to make it easier on the player to make his character. I'm the only one that owns the pdf's and the only one in the group even familiar with the Dresdenverse. I can see possibly a "knight" of the Erlking but given the Erlkings "portfolio" it might not fit the player to well. The Summer and Winter Courts already have knights and I want to keep them in place.

Like I said since I'm the only one with the pdf's I figured the templates would be easier for a new player to choose from. He's come up with a background of having been kidnapped by fae as a child and raised as this Knight. So possibly a the fae that kidnapped him have used and sponsored him for a one day coup they are planning. hmmmmm
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 30, 2010, 07:56:21 PM
Quote from: Llayne on April 30, 2010, 06:56:03 PM
The book says he's a possible counterpart to the Queens

That could also mean that at one time there were both a King and Queen of the Summer and Winter courts. Erl could be the former King of Summer or Winter.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: neko128 on April 30, 2010, 08:03:11 PM
Okay.  Now I have this visual of the old knight from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom in my head - the Autumn Knight, mortal preserved by the infusion of the courts power, living in the shadows for centuries.  He looks - and physically is - a frail old man, but he's been steadfastly working for centuries to curry favor, earn rewards, hoard power, and lay plans...   Waiting for the day he can snare a greater prize, and restore his former court to its proper - and stolen - glory.

He still has some small remnant of his own power - the ability to veil himself - but his ability to travel to/from the Nevernever (where he haunts his old court part-time) is now limited to an Item of Power, a sword that lets him "cut holes" in reality.

Ooooo, this one I'm going to have to develop.  Something like:

High Concept - "The Once and Future Knight"
Trouble - "A Shadow of His Former Self"
Aspects - "Wisdom Before Beauty", "A Smiling, Sad-Faced Old Man", "Faerie Sword"

Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: bestial warlust on April 30, 2010, 08:16:37 PM
Quote from: neko128 on April 30, 2010, 08:03:11 PM
Okay.  Now I have this visual of the old knight from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom in my head - the Autumn Knight, mortal preserved by the infusion of the courts power, living in the shadows for centuries.  He looks - and physically is - a frail old man, but he's been steadfastly working for centuries to curry favor, earn rewards, hoard power, and lay plans...   Waiting for the day he can snare a greater prize, and restore his former court to its proper - and stolen - glory.

He still has some small remnant of his own power - the ability to veil himself - but his ability to travel to/from the Nevernever (where he haunts his old court part-time) is now limited to an Item of Power, a sword that lets him "cut holes" in reality.

Ooooo, this one I'm going to have to develop.  Something like:

High Concept - "The Once and Future Knight"
Trouble - "A Shadow of His Former Self"
Aspects - "Wisdom Before Beauty", "A Smiling, Sad-Faced Old Man", "Faerie Sword"



And I just may steal this from you. I had the idea of something like this at one point. Sponsors wishing to reclaim what once was.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: arentol on April 30, 2010, 08:28:48 PM
Quote from: neko128 on April 30, 2010, 07:41:20 PM
Well, I think the earlier comment is the most important one here - there's actually a discussion in Summer Knight (
(click to show/hide)
):

"The Nevernever is a big place.  In fact, it's the biggest place.  The Nevernever is what the wizards call the entirety of the realm of spirit.  It isn't a physical place, with geography and weather patterns and so on.  it's a shadow world, a magical realm, and its substance is as mutable as thought...it contains within it just about any kind of spirit realm you can imagine, somewhere.  Heaven, Hell, Olympus, Elysium, Tartarus, Gehenna - you name it, and it's in the Nevernever somewhere.  In theory, at any rate.

The parts of the Nevernever closest to the mortal world are almost completely controlled by the Sidhe.  This part of the spirit realm is called Faerie..."

So this establishes that the Faerie courts live in a small, small corner of the spirit realms - the corner touching the mortal realm, where there's a lot of crossover and interaction.  However, it also establishes that the rest of the Nevernever is infinite.

So the idea of a former Autumn/Spring court - or even the vague remnants of one - doesn't contradict the cycle-as-written as long as they're not part of it.  Four real possibilities come to mind:

  • They aren't mentioned because they never existed.  QED.  (this has the virtue of simplicity, but the vice of boredom)
  • The Spring/Autumn courts still exist, but they've been pushed out of the cycle.  Some point in the past, the Summer and Winter courts grew enough in power to "close the loop" and exclude them.  They're now in exile.  They still exist in the Nevernever, but not in Faerie; their strength is a weak echo of what it used to be.
  • The Spring/Autumn courts formerly existed, but have been razed.  There's no crippling imbalance in nature because there is still the summer/winter transition.  The cycle may be more of an oval than a circle now, but it all works out.  Maybe you pass through the dark, decayed ruins of their courts when passing from Faerie to the rest of the Nevernever?  (a dark interpretation, but certainly not out of character with the ruthlessness of the Faerie queens!)
  • The courts still exist - as ghosts.  You can find them, reliving their moments of glory, as pitiful shades of what they used to be...  Ghosts in a ghost land, and angry over their exclusion from reality and clutching at the past.  Their power still exists, but is - literally - a shadow of what it used to be.  (This one is my favorite interpretation, and one I'm seriously considering working into the game I'm working on starting locally)


Excellent research and ideas. I am now firmly on the side of these courts having existed at some point, and possibly still existing, and now I have good ideas how to implement them if someone wants to use them.... I still say being a simple scion or knight is a bit of a weak idea, but at least now I have some good ideas how to work with them.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Rel Fexive on May 01, 2010, 12:00:29 AM
I like the idea that they once existed but were absorbed by Summer or Winter.  Somewhere in each Court is a elderly sidhe who is the only true remnant of those long-forgotten Courts of old and they only have one function: to find a mortal to act as their Herald.  The Spring Maid, beholden to Summer, sends her Herald to make the (often fatal) traditional challenge to the Winter Court, in the lead up to the Midwinter Battle.  The Herald of the Prince Of Autumn, servant of Winter, challenges Summer to appear at Midsummer.

This also allows for two more mortal Knights - well, Heralds - of Faerie.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Brock on May 07, 2010, 10:00:08 PM
Perhaps they are better used when their respective seasons are in order.  as Winter begins to wane, the Spring Court (consisting only of Dukes and Barons) are called to service for the Summer Court and the inverse for Autumn and Winter.

You could easily have the Gruff's showing up as part of one court or the other and some very interesting creatures in the mix that are there as facilitators to ensure that Winter loses power and Summer regains it, etc.

Then if you use the Summer Knight plot, it could easily be that someone struck a bargain along the way to keep the involvement of the Spring/Autumn court out of it.

This leaves the Erl King as his own entity, as a neutral party and the Spring/Autumn court having no ill will or battle against each other. They only work for the Queens that give them their fiefs.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: swordsman on May 07, 2010, 11:31:32 PM
Anyone thought of Oberon as ruler (in exile?) for the Spring court? Maybe Titania ended up absorbing the court over that affair a certain midsummer night... Of course, Mab absorbed Autumn just to keep the Balance.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: FishStampede on June 05, 2010, 03:12:38 PM
We're building our city right now. Ostensibly Asheville, NC, it's really more covering the entire great smokies region of western north carolina. Someone wanted to play an Autumn Knight, and we thought it fit really well for the area For those who don't know the area, Autumn is VERY important to the economy. It's the main tourist season, and a poor leaf display means economic trouble.

We decided the Autumn Court is still around, but they're based on lurking and fear. They eventually got so good at hiding, they just vanished. Even records and memories of them are sketchy, with smudges, bookworms, stuck pages, and other things conspiring to keep them off the books.

The only concrete proof of their existence is their knight (who is a bit confused about it all), and a freeholding charter admitting the Old Things of the Mountains, under Spearfinger the Witch.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: KOFFEYKID on June 05, 2010, 05:21:05 PM
In one game I'm in we decided that the Autumn and spring courts exist, but as daughter courts to Summer and Winter. So Autumn is a part of Winter as a whole, but has its own system of nobility but they still answer to the Winter Lady/Queen/Mother.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: Faithmage on June 05, 2010, 06:32:05 PM
When the GM crown rolls to me in my game The Spring and Autumn courts will become the male side of the same equation and mercenary. They will have kings and princes, and their Knights are often Female, but not always. They will be strongest in areas without strong winters or summers like California which in many places go from spring to autumn and back. An the Kings are always trying to curry favor with summer and winter as appropriate.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: CMEast on June 05, 2010, 09:35:25 PM
Very nice idea Faithmage, if we ever have spring or autumn courts that's definitely how we'll play it.
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: vultur on June 05, 2010, 10:00:12 PM
Quote from: FishStampede on June 05, 2010, 03:12:38 PM
a freeholding charter admitting the Old Things of the Mountains, under Spearfinger the Witch.

Is this Spearfinger based on the spear-finger/u'tlun'ta from Cherokee mythology?
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: John Galt on June 06, 2010, 06:28:05 AM
I like the idea of Spring and Autumn Courts.  In a seattle pbp I'm playing a former High Sidhe of the Autumn Court whose now a half-mortal Bard damned to remember and share the sorrow of his destroyed Court with the rest of the world (or at least Seattle).  Personally I like the ideas of former great courts destroyed by summer and winter.

I also like the idea that the Erkling is the King of Autumn and there's another wildfae King out there with power close to Mab and Titania who is effectively head of a Spring Court.

I like not because it's particularly true to the books, but because it lets groups stay true to the books and still play a Knight of a Faerie Court. 
Title: Re: Autumn and Spring Courts
Post by: FishStampede on June 06, 2010, 11:34:06 AM
Quote from: vultur on June 05, 2010, 10:00:12 PM
Is this Spearfinger based on the spear-finger/u'tlun'ta from Cherokee mythology?

Yup.

The Old Things are largely based on a mix of mountain folklore, Cherokee myth, and the stories of Manly Wade Wellman.