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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: exploding_brain on April 30, 2010, 04:37:42 AM

Title: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on April 30, 2010, 04:37:42 AM
Fists and melee weapons are limited to opponents in your zone.  Thrown weapons can go into the next zone.  Guns can go two zones, maybe three if it's a rifle.  It seems like most single target evocation attacks should be similar to thrown weapon range at least, if not handgun range, but I can't find any rules text that says for sure.

Assuming your standard evocation can attack opponents in an adjacent zone (like a thrown weapon), a follow up question would be; can you spend shifts to hit someone farther away (arcane snipe rifle)?  Can you get some small bonus to your evocation (probably not a full shift) if you limit it just you zone (arcane brass knuckles)?
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 30, 2010, 04:43:21 AM
I believe Evocation is line of sight, and thus as many zones range as that allows for.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on April 30, 2010, 04:53:21 AM
Right, duh.  I read that like 50 times, but it never clicked that meant ignore zones, if you can see it, you can hit it.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 30, 2010, 06:54:56 PM
I believe Evocation is line of sight, and thus as many zones range as that allows for.

Do telescopes and lenses extend your line of sight? ;D

Sounds like a cheat. So I'd rule that you can't target a spell through lenses even if it is still line of sight. But then what about the poor Wizard who wears glasses?
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 30, 2010, 07:00:26 PM
Do telescopes and lenses extend your line of sight? ;D

Sounds like a cheat. So I'd rule that you can't target a spell through lenses even if it is still line of sight. But then what about the poor Wizard who wears glasses?

Sure, why not? Anything technological is a no (because of how magic interacts with that stuff), but a telescope should work fine. Hell, I can see a Wizard with a telescope as a Focus item and a specialty in sniping Red Court with lances of fire from a mile away. Think "Quigley Down Under" with magic.  :)

How and why would that concept need to be disallowed?
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 30, 2010, 07:04:09 PM
I can see a Wizard with a telescope as a Focus item and a specialty in sniping Red Court...

That must be why Ebenezer asked Harry where the telescope was!   ;)
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 30, 2010, 07:12:12 PM
Hmm...

After thinking about lenses I started thinking about mirrors. Is it line of sight or direct line of sight. After a quick search I couldn't find the answer; but I did find this,

Quote from: YS:250
Also, magical energy can only travel a certain distance before you need a more permanent construct to direct it accurately, and that’s the kind of thing you need thaumaturgy for.

There seems to be an unspecified range to evocation. So a telescopic sniper evocater may not be possible. Damn!
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on April 30, 2010, 07:17:39 PM
The cool stories of setting up the proper sniper shot are more like thaumaturgy anyway.  I could see performing a ritual that assists the conduction of energy from one point (the sniper's nest), to another point (the predicted location of the target).  Then when the hit goes down, you actually cast the evocation, with the assist of the results of the ritual.

Or look at the phobo-phage redirection ritual.  That certainly had the same feel in the book as a sniper setting up a kill shot.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on April 30, 2010, 07:45:58 PM
The Shadowrun answer to this is that range of magic is infinite, as long as you see the original image.  Therefore, telescopes, microscopes, optic lenses, even fibre optic cables are fine, as long as the image is purely "analog" optical and never digitized; but any kind of computerized or video system breaks the link.

The real bitch of this is that it directly leads to the idea of a security setup where a mage sits in a room somewhere in the building, with an optical (not digital) switch that links a pair of goggles or magnifying screen to fibre-optic cables running to fisheye lenses in the ceiling of every room in the building.  So when a security guard watching his motion detectors or video banks notices movement, he tells the wizard what room it's in, and the wizard switches the goggles to that lense, and *poof* they're targetable.  Cunning PCs will abuse this heartily.

Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Moriden on April 30, 2010, 09:27:35 PM
Quote
The real bitch of this is that it directly leads to the idea of a security setup where a mage sits in a room somewhere in the building, with an optical (not digital) switch that links a pair of goggles or magnifying screen to fibre-optic cables running to fisheye lenses in the ceiling of every room in the building.  So when a security guard watching his motion detectors or video banks notices movement, he tells the wizard what room it's in, and the wizard switches the goggles to that lense, and *poof* they're targetable.  Cunning PCs will abuse this heartily.

Sounds like a sanctum attunement ritual to me. id use more magical theory and less tech but the intent seems the same.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Ard3 on April 30, 2010, 09:45:47 PM
Cunning PCs will abuse this heartily.

IIRC it is harder than direct line of sight, but doable. Also it works both ways and simple piece of gum/tape/whatever will stop wizard from casting.
If you know beforehand where the optical cables are, you can just levitate spray paint bottle next to it.
Not really practical system really.


And yes, I have played Shadowrun  ;)
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 30, 2010, 10:09:46 PM
The real bitch of this is that it directly leads to the idea of a security setup where a mage sits in a room somewhere in the building, with an optical (not digital) switch that links a pair of goggles or magnifying screen to fibre-optic cables running to fisheye lenses in the ceiling of every room in the building.  So when a security guard watching his motion detectors or video banks notices movement, he tells the wizard what room it's in, and the wizard switches the goggles to that lense, and *poof* they're targetable.  Cunning PCs will abuse this heartily.

This doesn't work in the Dresden Files for the good and simple reason that magic fucks technology the hell up. So, he'd need to do it with magic...which is easier said than done.

Personally, I wouldn't allow it if the image comes from anything more complex than a non-electric microscope, for that very reason.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on May 01, 2010, 03:32:25 AM
So having established that the potential distance of the attack is one of the advantages of evocation, what kind of benefit might one grant for sacrificing that benefit.

Let's look at a wizard who wants to make some arcane brass knuckles as one of his rotes.  It's a single target attack, much like Harry's Fuego spell, but you can only attack someone in the same zone with you.  Normally you can't get anything for restricting an on-the-fly spell that way, because you know when you cast it if your target is close enough or not.  But for a rote, we're picking the particulars ahead of time and hoping we guess right.

Would it be reasonable to add some small bonus to our magical brass knuckles rote in exchange for reducing it's range?
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on May 01, 2010, 03:43:53 AM
Would it be reasonable to add some small bonus to our magical brass knuckles rote in exchange for reducing it's range?

Personally, I would say no. When I read about Harry's force ring in the books I always assumed that he connected with the target - making a Fist attack. I was surprised that the RPG had the force ring as a ranged attack targeted by Discipline. Other than the line of sight requirement and that vague statement on page YS:250 about range, the actual range never enters into the formula. As they has been said elsewhere, magic buys you the effect then you describe how it works. A Weapons:3 attack is the same whether it touch, short range, or long range.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: KOFFEYKID on May 01, 2010, 03:46:00 AM
No, Harry definitely uses the rings at range many times throughout the series, however every once in a while he does also punch at his target, if they are in range. I think in that situation harry can use fists as a complimentary skill, getting a +1 bonus to the discipline roll to aim the effect.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on May 01, 2010, 03:55:39 AM
So maybe it wouldn't be too much to allow a physical skill, say fists or athletics, to complement the aiming roll for a rote like that?

That would definitely be a benefit to the character for whom I'm designing this power, since his athletics is higher than his discipline.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on May 01, 2010, 03:56:50 AM
The justification for the athletics being that he's got an advantage in moving around in that one zone to get close enough to deliver the attack.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on May 01, 2010, 03:59:51 AM
So maybe it wouldn't be too much to allow a physical skill, say fists or athletics, to complement the aiming roll for a rote like that?

That would definitely be a benefit to the character for whom I'm designing this power, since his athletics is higher than his discipline.

A Rote is just a evocation and evocations are always targeted by Discipline. The force ring is an enchanted item which allows you to pick the targeting skill. I only mentioned the force ring as an example of how range does not factor into equation.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Moriden on May 01, 2010, 04:02:36 AM
+1 shift for limiting the rote wouldn't be uncalled for, much like including a focus item gives. in this case your just including a +0 focus item of "fist"
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: KOFFEYKID on May 01, 2010, 04:06:36 AM
+1 shift for limiting the rote wouldn't be uncalled for, much like including a focus item gives. in this case your just including a +0 focus item of "fist"

This is a good idea.

Also, I think you should name the magic fist rote "FALCON PUNCH!"
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on May 01, 2010, 04:13:28 AM
Actually, it's name is going to be "Claws" in Greek.  The character is a great big comic book nerd, so a lot of his powers are inspired by the cool bits of the comics he reads. I thought the brass knuckles example would be more generically useful, but this guy is definitely imitating a certain Canadian Redneck we all know and love.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on May 01, 2010, 02:30:56 PM
This doesn't work in the Dresden Files for the good and simple reason that magic fucks technology the hell up. So, he'd need to do it with magic...which is easier said than done.

Personally, I wouldn't allow it if the image comes from anything more complex than a non-electric microscope, for that very reason.

What piece of the technology do you think it would be messing up?  The only part that could fizzle or screw up would be the switches, which could be moved manually anyway, unless one of the cables actually broke.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Moriden on May 01, 2010, 02:32:41 PM
Quote
What piece of the technology do you think it would be messing up?  The only part that could fizzle or screw up would be the switches, which could be moved manually anyway, unless one of the cables actually broke.

you realize that at a high enough concentration of magic, Steem stops working?
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Rel Fexive on May 01, 2010, 02:46:36 PM
Well, steam engines at any rate.  I doubt anyone can hex the basic laws of physics enough to stop water turning to a gas.  Spells, sure; hexing, no.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on May 01, 2010, 04:02:31 PM
Steam engines are relatively complex combinations of gears, levels, and pistons.  There are axles, transmissions, welds, joins, seams, pipes, and all sorts of things that can stick, creak, shift, etcetera.  Plus, Steam applies a large amount of pressure, usually imperfectly spread out over the interior surface area of the engine.

Think of a steam engine as a controlled pipe bomb.  Stick up one release valve, and you're looking at a catastrophe, not a simple mechanical failure.  :-P
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on May 01, 2010, 04:30:25 PM
Harry has been known to avoid the more complex mechanisms of magazine loaded handguns in favor of revolvers, for fear of hexing them.  So the line between technology that gets along well with Wizards and technology that doesn't is somewhere between a colt .45 and a glock, for that particular wizard anyway.  Might be that some wizard can accidentally hex the setup described above.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on May 01, 2010, 05:19:38 PM
Again, moving parts.  :)
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: KOFFEYKID on May 01, 2010, 05:36:41 PM
The most you can do is bend the laws of physics, or cause malfunctions in machinery or electronics. In Changes
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 01, 2010, 05:39:55 PM
What piece of the technology do you think it would be messing up?  The only part that could fizzle or screw up would be the switches, which could be moved manually anyway, unless one of the cables actually broke.

The fibre-optic cables and fish-eye lenses. Instantly. Anything electronic goes boom/fizzle almost immediately, and more importantly it's how new and advanced the technology is that makes it screw up. The newer, the easier and quicker it gets screwed up. Or are you going to tell me fibre optics aren't advanced technology?

Post-World War 2 Tech doesn't work for Wizards. Fibre optics were come up with in 1965.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on May 01, 2010, 06:19:24 PM
Again, moving parts.  :)

Right, moving parts, just like the switches and cables that are connecting the lenses and the fiber optic cables.  More complex than a revolver, more complex than a glock?  Sounds like a judgment call for your campaign, but it's a discussion that might come up.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on May 01, 2010, 06:25:28 PM
But lenses are centuries old, and in this example, if I'm understanding it right, the fiber optic cable is basically working like a lens.  It basically glass bending the path of light, I believe, so it might be resistant to hexing the same way lenses are.  Anyway, I think the idea is that there's no electronics involved, which is the most vulnerable sort of technology.  Everything is either mechanical, or light being bent by interaction with physical materials.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 01, 2010, 06:35:30 PM
But lenses are centuries old, and in this example, if I'm understanding it right, the fiber optic cable is basically working like a lens.  It basically glass bending the path of light, I believe, so it might be resistant to hexing the same way lenses are.  Anyway, I think the idea is that there's no electronics involved, which is the most vulnerable sort of technology.  Everything is either mechanical, or light being bent by interaction with physical materials.

It's not about how it's being used, it's about it being new. Clearly, the magic making things not work doesn't give a damn about logic or guns would be immune. They aren't. It's a conceptual, not logical process. Is it new? Yes. Well then it fails.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on May 01, 2010, 06:37:51 PM
But lenses are centuries old, and in this example, if I'm understanding it right, the fiber optic cable is basically working like a lens.  It basically glass bending the path of light, I believe, so it might be resistant to hexing the same way lenses are.  Anyway, I think the idea is that there's no electronics involved, which is the most vulnerable sort of technology.  Everything is either mechanical, or light being bent by interaction with physical materials.

Actually, a fiber optic cable works like a mirror, not a lens. The fiber is a pipe and the light bounces of the inside of the outer surface of that pipe - like an infinite series of mirrors.

With a lens you are still looking directly at your target. When you you use mirrors you are looking at it indirectly. An evocation needs to follow a straight line to the target. Anything else is thaumaturgy.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on May 01, 2010, 06:41:54 PM
It's not about how it's being used, it's about it being new. Clearly, the magic making things not work doesn't give a damn about logic or guns would be immune. They aren't. It's a conceptual, not logical process. Is it new? Yes. Well then it fails.

Hmmm. Old things are now made of new material. Earlier, you mentioned a evocation sniper with a telescope. If the lenses of the  telescope are glass then it's okay? If they are made of Lexan then it's not?
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: exploding_brain on May 01, 2010, 06:42:41 PM
It's not about how it's being used, it's about it being new. Clearly, the magic making things not work doesn't give a damn about logic or guns would be immune. They aren't. It's a conceptual, not logical process. Is it new? Yes. Well then it fails.

If that's what's fun for your group, sure, that works.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 01, 2010, 06:46:06 PM
Hmmm. Old things are now made of new material. Earlier, you mentioned a evocation sniper with a telescope. If the lenses of the  telescope are glass then it's okay? If they are made of Lexan then it's not?

Hmmm. Like a knife made of plastic there's nothing to go wrong there, so I think it'd be okay. Fiber optics have more to go wrong, if only by virtue of being a long and relatively fragile cable.

If that's what's fun for your group, sure, that works.

That's actually the tack taken by the RPG in general. See p. 258.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on May 01, 2010, 07:05:59 PM
Fiber optics have more to go wrong, if only by virtue of being a long and relatively fragile cable.

Actually, fiber optics are pretty darn simple and they are fairly rugged. Not that I like the whole evocation down a pipe direction tis topic has turned to.

I would disallow fiber optics on the bases that it is an indirect attack. Evocations don't turn corners - thats thaumaturgy. Also, forcing power down that fiber would burn it out - no hexing involved. Just like trying to bounce a Weapon:5 evocation off a mirror would break the mirror.

And I think the telescope idea is out because of the
Quote
Inherent Limitations
(YS:250) that requires a "more permanent construct" (thaumaturgy) for spells beyond a "certain distance."
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on May 01, 2010, 11:42:56 PM
The fibre-optic cables and fish-eye lenses. Instantly. Anything electronic goes boom/fizzle almost immediately, and more importantly it's how new and advanced the technology is that makes it screw up. The newer, the easier and quicker it gets screwed up. Or are you going to tell me fibre optics aren't advanced technology?

I am, actually.  The mistake you're making is the "electronic" bit - I specifically excluded electronic elements.  Fibre optics are nothing more than pieces of transparent or translucent material that transmit light - like windows.  The reason most people consider them high-tech is because the almost exclusive use in the current day and age is digital data transmission - which is done by firing lasers or LED flashes down fibre optic channels, and interpreting the digital data at the far end...  But that's the actions of a computer.  Fibre optics do nothing but carry light.

Similarly, a lense is nothing more than lump of glass or plastic that reflects light.  Again, like a thick or curved window.

To screw up the fibre optics and fisheye lenses, you would have to change the behavior of light, and I have seen no precedent to believe that magic can do that (at least when it isn't intentional).
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on May 01, 2010, 11:46:02 PM
It's not about how it's being used, it's about it being new. Clearly, the magic making things not work doesn't give a damn about logic or guns would be immune. They aren't. It's a conceptual, not logical process. Is it new? Yes. Well then it fails.

Guns are subject to mechanical failures on small parts that are manufactured to fairly high tolerances.  :)
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Rel Fexive on May 01, 2010, 11:49:45 PM
Of course, if there's a wall between you and your target, I don't care what you're using to see him - if you're casting your spell from inside a locked room expect property damage and a target running away fast when he hears the bang.  It's not just the 'targeting' that's line of sight with evocation.  And without a symbolic component would thaumaturgy be able to target someone you can only see?
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 02, 2010, 12:37:11 AM
I am, actually.  The mistake you're making is the "electronic" bit - I specifically excluded electronic elements. Fibre optics are nothing more than pieces of transparent or translucent material that transmit light - like windows.  The reason most people consider them high-tech is because the almost exclusive use in the current day and age is digital data transmission - which is done by firing lasers or LED flashes down fibre optic channels, and interpreting the digital data at the far end...  But that's the actions of a computer.  Fibre optics do nothing but carry light.

Similarly, a lense is nothing more than lump of glass or plastic that reflects light.  Again, like a thick or curved window.

To screw up the fibre optics and fisheye lenses, you would have to change the behavior of light, and I have seen no precedent to believe that magic can do that (at least when it isn't intentional).

Looking up fiber optics you're quite right.

Also, having looked up fiber optics, biff_dyskolos is also quite right. They behave like mirrors more than lenses, and I would not allow someone to use Evocation through a mirror, so that ruling would stand for fiber optics.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on May 03, 2010, 01:13:36 PM
You say "through" a mirror.  Do you mean you wouldn't let someone cast at someone behind the mirror, or someone who's reflected in it?  I wouldn't let someone cast through fibre optics either (for different reasons), but I *would* let someone cast at a reflection.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Rel Fexive on May 03, 2010, 02:01:50 PM
Bear in mind that if you see someone behind you in a mirror and cast an evocation at them, you just need to point/gesture behind you and you'll (probably) be able to hit them - they could always use a, ah, MIRROR SHOT aspect for a bonus to their defence.  But if they were around a corner, and a barrier of some kind blocked the direct route from you to your target, then your spell would hit that barrier.  No bending a spell around corners, in other words.  You could, I guess, stick your hand around the corner and 'fire' but again, the defender would get to use an aspect like BAD ANGLE or some such to help them.

That's how I'd do it, anyway.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 03, 2010, 04:21:30 PM
You say "through" a mirror.  Do you mean you wouldn't let someone cast at someone behind the mirror, or someone who's reflected in it?  I wouldn't let someone cast through fibre optics either (for different reasons), but I *would* let someone cast at a reflection.

I meant I wouldn't let someone cast it directly at a reflection and let it effect the person whose reflection it is.

Something like what Rel Fexive is talking about I'd allow, though.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on May 03, 2010, 06:25:42 PM
I guess my concern is, to lay it out, the difference in definition of "Line of Sight".  The rules say you can only target things that you see without "scrying or other effects", but the reasoning it gives is the problem of concentration, not necessarily reach.

A lot of the comments here feel like the assumption is that any evocation must be sourcing from the Wizard in question, but I see no reason to assume that this is true.  Harry himself focuses on effects that focus on him and either shield him or radiate out (blasts of fire and air being popular ones), but there are other examples where this isn't true.  The rules use an example (page 253, I think?) where someone causes strong winds to rise in the area, but the winds are independent of the wizard (they're near him, but not radiating from or directed towards him), and in fact it's implied that their effect is not limited by LOS to the wizard either - that the effect is an area, obstacles notwithstanding.

Similarly, under the discussion of elements and air vs. earth for calling lightning, it talks about summoning lightning down from the sky to hit a target.  The wizard is the source of the magic, but neither the source nor target of the effect.

And the last example I'll throw out is from Storm Front.  In Chapter 22, Harry causes
(click to show/hide)
- and the source, cause, and effect all happened outside his vision.

I'm just afraid people are getting too attached to "direct vision" as the definition of effect for evocation, because we have multiple examples - in the books and rules - where it isn't the standard used to define "Line of Sight"...  And the reasoning written behind the LoS comment doesn't mention vision at all.

So to get back to the thread...

...you just need to point/gesture behind you and you'll (probably) be able to hit them - they could always use a, ah, MIRROR SHOT aspect for a bonus to their defence...

This is exactly my point.  Yes, if you're aiming in a mirror to "point and shoot", you're effectively firing a gun, and it'd be appropriate.  But am I simply missing the requirement to "aim" in this sense?  It may make sense based on the character concept, but from my reading of the rules it isn't appropriate to all Evocation, or even *much* Evocation.  The rules say the discipline roll also counts as your attack roll (that they can defend against), but it doesn't say it's literally a ranged attack - and that interpretation is directly contradicted by the discussion slightly further down of, for example, summoning a lightning bolt from the sky.  Sure, it's dodgeable, and if not dodged the damage is resistible, but it's not being aimed in the way you're talking.  It's being guided, and that's different.  Even if my PC were targeting the lightning bolt in a mirror, I wouldn't be able to justify a defensive aspect like that.  Now, an "insulated" aspect because they were in a car (rubber tires FTW!) or a "grounded" aspect because they're standing in a puddle of water or clutching a metal fire escape...

Anyway, sorry, rant done.  :)
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: Rel Fexive on May 03, 2010, 07:30:38 PM
No, I see what you mean.  Most attack evocations do seem to "originate" with the caster - you see people throw fire or lightning or whatever all the time - but there are and will be instances of localised earthquakes, lightning from the sky, a wall of flame or powerful gusts of wind that don't start with the caster and end with the target.  It's just down to how you visualise it.

To me, it seems like any evocation that creates something to attack with (fire, lightning, green bolt of entropy) always originates from the caster, while an evocation that taps something else (a gust of wind, lightning from the earth or a storm, gravity, seismic disturbance) can originate from elsewhere, and generally close by.  That's how I remember it from the novels.  Of course, I could be mistaken :)

At that point, targeting someone around the corner with a mirror and using an earth evocation to make the ground at their feet blast them with rock fragments is a perfectly valid method.  Especially when you consider the importance of mirrors in many tales of the supernatural.
Title: Re: From how far away can you hit someone with an evocation?
Post by: neko128 on May 03, 2010, 07:56:53 PM
No, I see what you mean.  Most attack evocations do seem to "originate" with the caster - you see people throw fire or lightning or whatever all the time - but there are and will be instances of localised earthquakes, lightning from the sky, a wall of flame or powerful gusts of wind that don't start with the caster and end with the target.  It's just down to how you visualise it.

Exactly.  :)  I agree 100% with this paragraph.

and generally close by...

Yes, this is stated clearly in the rules, and supported by the description of Thaumaturgy.  Range is important - Evocation is definitely localized, whether it's direct or indirect.