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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: arentol on April 29, 2010, 04:19:46 AM

Title: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: arentol on April 29, 2010, 04:19:46 AM
Roll 4d6, add up the total, compare to either of these tables for result. The odds are only off by a teeny bit (fudge is 144/1296 for each result, for this system all results fall between 141 to 146/1296 per). I realize this won't be for everyone, but some people may find it a bit easier than the 1,2- 3,4 5,6+ method.

Number rolled / Result
4   -1
5   -3
6   -4
7   -2
8   -3
9   -4
10   -4
11   -3
12   -2
13   -1
14   0
15   1
16   2
17   3
18   4
19   4
20   3
21   2
22   4
23   3
24   1

Result / Number rolled
-4   6   9   10
-3   5   8   11
-2   7   12   
-1   4   13   
0   14      
1   15   24   
2   16   21   
3   17   20   23
4   18   19   22


Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: Bosh on April 29, 2010, 05:34:43 AM
Probably simplier to just do d6 - d6 in that case, it'll give you a bit different distribution but it's fast.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: R00kie on April 29, 2010, 06:01:52 AM
Quote from: arentol on April 29, 2010, 04:19:46 AM
Roll 4d6, add up the total, compare to either of these tables for result.

Rolling dice needs to be exciting. There's something magic about that moment when the dice hit the table, and you immediately know if things have gone in your favour or not. Using this method you've got to actually calculate your result. If I roll d6s (six sided dice) and see a table full of sixes I want to instantly know either that it was a great result or (depending on the system) a terrible result.

I think, for those without Fudge dice I would recommend any of the following methods:

1) Buy some. You've just spent $90 on a roleplaying game. By comparison buying a set of dice for $6 is cheap. You could even spend $20, buy one of the Fudge GMs packs and have dice for the whole table.
2) Buy d6s with pips and use a permanent marker to turn them into Fudge dice (http://www.fudgefactor.org/2001/12/01/babys_first_fudge_dice.html)
3) Make your own fudge dice out of cardstock or light cardboard (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/sprkdice.htm)

But if you really are averse to fudge dice
4) Use d6s - treat 5 or 6 as +, 3 or 4 as blank and 1 or 2 as -

There are also a variety of d6 based methods which produce a different curve, but it doesn't really matter so long as everyone on the table uses the same method.
5) Use two different coloured d6s. Define one as positive and one as negative. Roll d6-d6 and treat results of +5 or -5 as 0
6) Use two different coloured d6s. Define one as positive and one as negative. Roll them both. Treat a matched pair or set of a 5 and a 6 as 0. For any other roll take the value of the lowest number showing. If its on the negative dice its a negative result.
7) Add 7 to all difficulties in the game and roll 2d6. Treat Double 1 or Double 6 as a roll of 7

The advantage to all these methods - as soon as my dice hit the table I know if its a good result or not.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: R00kie on April 29, 2010, 06:03:23 AM
Quote from: Bosh on April 29, 2010, 05:34:43 AM
Probably simplier to just do d6 - d6 in that case, it'll give you a bit different distribution but it's fast.
Treating results of +5 or -5 as 0 gets it closer to the Fudge dice probability curve, but having +5 and -5 results doesn't break anything.

The important thing is that everyone uses the same method.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: Valarian on April 29, 2010, 11:51:55 AM
A set of blank dice (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dice-blank-pack-10-16mm-diameter-00540/dp/B001CWGGHQ) and a permanent marker works
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: neko128 on April 29, 2010, 01:43:20 PM
Quote from: R00kie on April 29, 2010, 06:01:52 AM
You could even spend $20, buy one of the Fudge GMs packs and have dice for the whole table.

Only cost me $15 to order them through my FLGS.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: arentol on April 29, 2010, 04:42:43 PM
Just forget what I posted anyway. Just realized I was totally miscalculating Fudge Dice odds to start with so what I posted is completely wrong.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: luminos on April 29, 2010, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: arentol on April 29, 2010, 04:42:43 PM
Just forget what I posted anyway. Just realized I was totally miscalculating Fudge Dice odds to start with so what I posted is completely wrong.

Yeah, it kind of looks like your substitution would give a flat distribution
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: arentol on April 29, 2010, 04:49:39 PM
Yeah, I need to go back to Stats class!
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: neko128 on April 29, 2010, 04:53:43 PM
Quote from: arentol on April 29, 2010, 04:49:39 PM
Yeah, I need to go back to Stats class!

Don't do it!  You'll never be the same!  DON'T DO IT, MAN!
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: Mattastic on April 29, 2010, 04:55:54 PM
DFRPG needs Fudge dice?
What are those?

 /not reading the books in any order
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 29, 2010, 04:58:16 PM
Quote from: Mattastic on April 29, 2010, 04:55:54 PM
DFRPG needs Fudge dice?
What are those?

 /not reading the books in any order

They're normal dice in shape, but insead of having numbers two sides are blank, two have - symbols on them, and two have + symbols. When rolling, a blank adds nothing, a + adds 1 and a - subtracts 1. Thus, if you roll 4 of them, you get a number between -4 and +4 to add to your base skill.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: theDwarf on June 28, 2010, 06:17:58 PM
Quote from: arentol on April 29, 2010, 04:19:46 AM
Roll 4d6, add up the total, compare to either of these tables for result. The odds are only off by a teeny bit (fudge is 144/1296 for each result, for this system all results fall between 141 to 146/1296 per). I realize this won't be for everyone, but some people may find it a bit easier than the 1,2- 3,4 5,6+ method.

Number rolled / Result
4   -1
5   -3
6   -4
7   -2
8   -3
9   -4
10   -4
11   -3
12   -2
13   -1
14   0
15   1
16   2
17   3
18   4
19   4
20   3
21   2
22   4
23   3
24   1

Result / Number rolled
-4   6   9   10
-3   5   8   11
-2   7   12   
-1   4   13   
0   14      
1   15   24   
2   16   21   
3   17   20   23
4   18   19   22

Actually the results are weighted incorrectly.
Using Fudge dice (d3's .. removing the duplicate results) there are 81 permutations and only 1 way to get a -4 and one way to get a +4. The number of permutations for -4 to +4 respectively are in fact 1,4,10,16,19,16,10,4,1.

So 1296/81 = 16.  Therefore for your distribution to work there would have to be approximately 16 permutations for a a number resulting in -4 to come up.  Analyzing a "6" result, the most rare of the numbers you have indicated, I come up with 10 permutations that result in a 6 on 4d6 (1113,1131,1311,3111,1122,1212,1221,2112,2121,2211). Therefore the sum of permutations in your chart that yield a -4 is significantly greater than 16 as you have 3 numbers resulting in a -4 result and each has 10 or more permutations (10 + much more than 10 + much more than 10 > 30 ... heck, probably well over 50 if not 100+).

-4 to +4 results are probably able to be mapped onto 4d6 summed results, but you will have to do more statistical analysis to properly map the permutations.

Hope that helps!

Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: theDwarf on June 28, 2010, 06:54:06 PM
Better mapping of 4d6 summed ...

       Maps
4d6  A    B
4   -4   -3
5   -4   -3
6   -4   -3
7   -3   -4
8   -3   -3
9   -2   -2
10   -2   0
11   -1   -2
12   -1   -1
13   0   -1
14   0   0
15   0   +1
16   +1   +1
17   +1   +2
18   +2   0
19   +2   +2
20   +3   +3
21   +3   +4
22   +4   +3
23   +4   +3
24   +4   +3
Notes:
  Map A is more intuitive and thus faster to determine results but although nearly exact at the extremes (15 in 1296 rather than 16) it follows more of a chevron distribution rather than a bell curve  and thus the chance of getting a "0" is greatly increased (426 in 1296 rather than 304) at the expense of +1/-1 and +2/-2 (229 rather than 256 and 136 rather than 160 respectively).

  Map B suffers the worst inaccuracy at +3/-3 then +1/-1, but even then the highest inaccuracy is ~-1% (+3/-3) and rest are within 0.7% or less (all slightly over except +2/-2 is exact) but this is much better than Map 1 with a high of 9.41% over and all the rest under by more than 0.69% except +4/-4.  Therefore Map B is a good, solid map that replicates the curve as well as possible but is obviously less intuitive.

I hope that helps!
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: Remy Sinclair on June 28, 2010, 07:33:11 PM
Wow really? Ummm, yeah... so let me get this straight you come up with some insane system to use regular D6s for FUDGE Dice. My group we do not use FUDGE dice we use regular D6s following what what page 16 in Your Story book says:

Quote from: Your Story, Dresden RPG Book 1, page 16
What Are Fudge Dice?
Fudge dice are six-sided dice that have different markings from normal dice—instead of numbers or dots, they have two sides marked
with a +, two sides marked with a -, and two sides that are blank (0). If you find yourself without Fudge dice or don’t want to purchase them, you can roll 4 normal six-sided dice. Any die showing a 1 or 2 is treated as -, any die showing a 3 or 4 is treated as a 0, and any die showing a 5 or 6 is treated as +.

So when rolling a D6 the result is the following: My group has been using this without an issue. My wife and I have D6s galore because we are gamers. Our other player just bought a box set of D6 for 3 dollars from Walmart. He got 9 dice in that pack. You can also find D6 at Dollar Stores Cheap. Not just gaming stores.


Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: theDwarf on June 28, 2010, 08:17:27 PM
Quote from: UltraTroll on June 28, 2010, 07:33:11 PM
Wow really? Ummm, yeah... so let me get this straight you come up with some insane system to use regular D6s for FUDGE Dice. My group we do not use FUDGE dice we use regular D6s following what what page 16 in Your Story book says:

So when rolling a D6 the result is the following:
  • 1,2 = -
  • 3,4 = 0
  • 5,6 = +

Actually, I was responding to the OP and posting possible corrections to how he mapped it.
My own recommendation is the 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 as -, 0 and + respectively :D
but I would not want to see people trying to use an incorrectly mapped system thus the discussion (and instruction) on permutations, a little insight on how to test if a map may be reasonable, and a couple of options that can yield credible results (one easier to follow but less accurate, one more accurate but more scattered) in case people run afoul the mapping (see your post) or the d6-d6 system suggested in the book.

FYI ... 1d6-1d6 yields a chevron distribution.   ;)
See thread on      "Using both Fudge dice and d6-d6?" for chevron distribution of d6-d6 and permutations for 4 Fudge dice.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: JosephKell on June 28, 2010, 10:10:18 PM
Or you could use a 2d10, then treat:
1: -2
2: -1
3: -1
3: 0
4: 0
5: 0
6: 0
7: +1
8: +1
9: +2
10: re-roll.

But this is just getting ridiculous.  The 4d6 with 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 seems the best solution (or the baby fudge dice).

I remember reading something in the books about a very specific (read "rare") case where you can lock down one of your opponents dice in the event they can re-roll.  So that is something to consider when trying to use an alternative rolling system.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: ryanroyce on June 28, 2010, 10:16:19 PM
Quote from: UltraTroll on June 28, 2010, 07:33:11 PM
Wow really? Ummm, yeah... so let me get this straight you come up with some insane system to use regular D6s for FUDGE Dice. My group we do not use FUDGE dice we use regular D6s following what what page 16 in Your Story book says:

So when rolling a D6 the result is the following:
  • 1,2 = -
  • 3,4 = 0
  • 5,6 = +

Before I got my set of Fudge dice, I used a slight variation on that system.  
1,6 = +
2,5 = <null>
3,4 = -

This keeps the matching values on opposite sides of the die, just as a real Fudge die does.  It's nit-picky as hell and I don't even need to do this anymore, but there it is anyway.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: evilnerf on June 28, 2010, 11:45:34 PM
Another way to do things if you have a program that rolls die for you, you can do "1d3-2", it gives you a result of -1, 0 or +1.  I'm not good enough at math to figure it out, but 4d3-8 should you give you the same probability with a much faster result.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: TheMouse on June 29, 2010, 12:56:40 AM
Or you can use any number of dice roller program. There are web sites that java applet dice rollers. you can download apps. Lots of options, so long as they support either 4dF or 4d3-8 (which are exactly the same thing).

I use rolldice on my netbook. Go to command line and type "rolldice 50x4d3-8" and it ouputs 50 iterations of Fudge dice rolls. Then I can copy/paste to a notepad and erase them as they're used. Simple and fast, although not nearly as satisfying as rolling 4dF, I must admit.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: Esoteric Wombat on June 29, 2010, 01:36:24 AM
A good probability program, for anybody interested. I already plugged in 4dF, 1d6-1d6, and 2d6 centered to 0.
http://anydice.com/program/11a

As an aside, I've found fudge dice to be a subjective thing. My group used them for a few sessions, then decided they didn't like them. It wasn't anything big, but 4dF creates a very sharp and predictable curve, which just didn't fit the groups love of zany, off-the-wall action. As players they decided that they actually liked less predictable rolls, where there was more chance to succeed and fail dramatically. 2d6 fits the players a lot better, and works in the rules as long as it is used consistently.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: SaintAndSinner on June 29, 2010, 05:02:02 PM
If you have d4's then d4 minus d4 gives you a range pretty close to d4F.  Not as wild as d6 minus d6.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: theDwarf on June 29, 2010, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: SaintAndSinner on June 29, 2010, 05:02:02 PM
If you have d4's then d4 minus d4 gives you a range pretty close to d4F.  Not as wild as d6 minus d6.

But caps at +/-3 rather than +/-4.

For the full +/-4 then d5-d5 would work.
d5's can be found and faceted crystal rollers or 10-siders with 1-5 repeated twice.
 :D
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: TheMouse on June 29, 2010, 06:09:29 PM
Quote from: theDwarf on June 29, 2010, 05:15:39 PM
But caps at +/-3 rather than +/-4.

Although, to be fair, you only get results at +/-4 a little more than 2% of the time. It's not a really huge difference.
Title: Re: Optional dice rolling system for those without Fudge Dice
Post by: theDwarf on July 01, 2010, 02:49:48 AM
Quote from: TheMouse on June 29, 2010, 06:09:29 PM
Although, to be fair, you only get results at +/-4 a little more than 2% of the time. It's not a really huge difference.

How do you figure?
Are you talking about the Fudge dice OR what I was talking about (d4-d4 compared to d5-d5).  In the case of the d5-d5 the chance of getting a +4 is 1/25th (aka, 4%) and a -4 is also 4%.  In the case of Fudge dice it is 1.23% for a +4 and 1.23% for a -4.  The chance of getting a +4 or better on d6-d6 is 8.33%.

Now then, you may be saying to yourself "look, you are proving my point" but I have seen too many players roll 00's on d% to think that 2% "is not a huge difference" especially when it comes to capping a level one lower (or higher).